Trial of Pedro de Zulueta, jun., on a Charge of Slave Trading, under 5 Geo. IV, cap. 113, on Friday the 27th, Saturday the 28th, and Monday the 30th of October, 1843, at the Central Criminal Court, Old Bailey, London / A Full Report from the Short-hand Notes of W. B. Gurney, Esq.

by Pedro de Zulueta; William Brodie Gurney

6694. Would they not be shipped from Rio Nunez but for the presence of the British factories?—I think they may throw some doubt over the minds of people as to the probability of giving information, and so on; but I believe the reason that the slave dealers prefer Bissao is what I have stated; viz. the difficulty of escaping from the Nunez.

6695. If British factories, without a British fleet or any British force, can have a beneficial tendency in suppressing the trade, does it not follow that settlements with a British force, and British authority to support them, would be still more efficient in suppressing that trade?—That is undeniable; and I allow that the influence would be beneficial in conjunction with the naval force, but I deny the power of unassisted British factories in putting down the slave trade; I do not believe that there is a single instance of it on the whole coast.

6696. Then if British factories and British commerce cannot have that influence, you apprehend that a large British force will continue to be necessary upon that coast?—That is not what I have stated; what I have stated is, that they have never, unassisted, put down the slave trade; wherever it is put down commerce instantly springs up: and there is the strongest reason to suppose, that when the slave trade is put down generally, commerce will be established throughout Africa; and when legitimate trade exists as a habit of the people, in the course of time I look to that legitimate trade putting an end to the slave trade for ever.

6697. Mr. Wortley.] Your observation and experience have led you to the decided conclusion that all attempts to suppress the slave trade by inducing the natives to betake themselves to legitimate traffic would be abortive, unless the direct suppression of the slave trade was effectual?—Unless the slave trade was checked by other means; when it is checked, commerce begins, and extends by degrees.

6698. Chairman.] How would you carry out the principle of separation; would you proceed to prohibit certain places which you considered to have no other traffic than the slave trade till the slave trade should have been to a certain amount checked, if not extirpated from that place?—My opinion is, that there is a change required in the law. At present, English merchant ships may supply slave factories, known to every soul at Sierra Leone to be slave factories, and yet if they cannot prove that the person who sold those goods for the purpose of buying slaves, did actually and positively know in his own mind the fact of those goods being certainly to be used in the slave trade, there can be no conviction.

6699. In a case such as that of Canôt, who is a great produce dealer, as well as a dealer in slaves, would you prohibit intercourse with him?—I would not prohibit intercourse with any body: but in every case where it was clearly proved that goods were sold to a person who it was well known could only use those goods in the slave trade, and the slave trade alone, that man’s character being perfectly notorious, I think that British vessels supplying him with goods, ignorant of his character, and from the want of the exercise of reasonable care and precaution, so aiding and abetting the slave trade, should be subject to the penalties of the Act.

6700. Speaking of this as a legal question to be provided for by Act of Parliament, how would you decide the proportion of produce trade which should entitle a foreign slave dealer, under such an Act of Parliament, to carry on intercourse with British traders; unless you could define that, would it not be easy for every slave dealer wishing to have that intercourse, to carry on a trade in produce, however small, sufficient to bring him within the permission given to deal with persons carrying on trade lawfully as well as unlawfully?—I do not think that it would be desirable to apply the provision very strictly; I think it would be very injudicious to be searching and inquiring in every case, whether the proceedings were of this character or not; but where there is a glaring and an unquestionable case, such as any English merchant sending goods to a slave ship, or to a factory where there is no other trade, I think he should be punished, and I think that it is highly important to the position which England holds upon this question with regard to foreign nations; my proposition is, that if from want of reasonable care he did not know that which was a notorious fact to every body else, he should be subject to the penalties.

6701. Sir T. D. Acland.] The trade of which you are speaking is that which is carried on with factories, notoriously used for the purpose of the slave trade; would you apply the law to such places?—I can mention a case which I think is a very strong one, the case of the Gallinas, where, to my certain knowledge, cargoes to a great extent were brought under the American flag, and other flags, solely for the purpose of purchasing slaves, the freight for all those cargoes being paid for in the Havannah, and without one single atom of produce being exported in return. Now in my opinion it was open under the Act for a British merchant ship to have carried all those goods to the Gallinas instead of an American with perfect impunity, and such a course of trade would bring the utmost scandal upon the English name, and the utmost doubt upon the sincerity of our wishes to put an end to the slave trade. You could not probably have proved to the satisfaction of juries at Sierra Leone, that they were knowingly aiding and abetting the slave trade.

6702. Mr. Forster.] Then to render such a law effectual you must induce all nations to enter into a common league to carry it out?—I think not; my view is, that England must leave to other countries the control of their own merchant vessels; but especially considering the situation she holds with regard to the slave trade, I think she is bound to prevent such a direct system of aiding and abetting slave trade on the part of English vessels.

6703. Do you think, if England were to do so, that it would have any real tendency to prevent the slave trader obtaining a supply of goods?—Certainly not; as in this instance he got all those goods without the assistance of the British flag; but had the British flag been used, I think it would have been an abominable disgrace.