Trial of Pedro de Zulueta, jun., on a Charge of Slave Trading, under 5 Geo. IV, cap. 113, on Friday the 27th, Saturday the 28th, and Monday the 30th of October, 1843, at the Central Criminal Court, Old Bailey, London / A Full Report from the Short-hand Notes of W. B. Gurney, Esq.

by Pedro de Zulueta; William Brodie Gurney

6835. Then you disapprove of selling goods to persons connected with the slave trade on the coast of Africa, not on account of the moral difference of the act, but on account of the difference of the tendency and consequences of that act?—I consider that, in every case, the dealings of British merchants with slave dealers, although their produce trade may be mixed with the slave trade, is, in a very high degree, objectionable and improper; but, at the same time, I do not think that we can separate them; I do not think it would be politic, or for the benefit of Africa, or for the cause that England has in hand, to endeavour to carry the distinction between them too far.

6836. But if it be wrong or immoral to have dealings with persons engaged in the slave trade, is it not equally wrong for a British merchant to ship and sell goods to a slave merchant in Cuba and Brazil, as it is to sell goods to a slave dealer on the coast of Africa, so far as the moral question is concerned?—I think so, decidedly, supposing those goods are intended to go into the slave trade, and it is known that they will go into the slave trade.

6837. Are you not aware, from your observation on the coast, that most of the goods, if not all, the cotton goods in particular, brought to the coast of Africa by Spanish and Portuguese slave dealers, are manufactured in this country?—I am perfectly aware of it; I consider this highly objectionable, in the same way as the mixed trade upon the coast is; but I do not think it would be wise to interfere with it.

6838. The Committee cannot but highly appreciate and deeply sympathise with your benevolent feelings on this subject; but do you consider yourself sufficiently familiar with the searching effects of commerce, to pronounce a sound opinion on the collateral tendency of trade to supersede the slave trade on the coast of Africa, even when carried on with persons connected with the slave trade?—I consider myself perfectly qualified to give opinions, so far as I have given them. The opinions I have given, I feel myself perfectly qualified to give, and to support.

6839. Chairman.] You do not see any indirect advantage in dealing with persons solely engaged in the slave trade, by means of lawful goods, sufficient to counterbalance the direct evil of the facilities given by that means to the slave trade?—The case of the Gallinas, I think, is a perfect answer to the question; no good whatever is derived from the exchange of the commodities of the civilized world for slaves. There is no export of produce in that district of the coast. I conceive that this commerce has no good effect whatever.

6840. You think it promotes no industry?—On the contrary, it annihilates it.

6841. Mr. Forster.] You have stated that there has been no British commerce carried on there to any extent?—In the Return which I have already referred to, in the 14th page of this correspondence, is given an account of the trade which formerly did exist, and which, under the withering influence of the slave trade, has been utterly destroyed. There is no doubt that there was considerable export trade at one time from the Gallinas; they exported rice, and they exported produce. Now they are obliged to import rice to feed themselves; cattle, which were formerly abundant, are now hardly to be procured, and then only at an enormous expense. They used to get cattle from Sierra Leone. Indeed, the only case I know of any communication with Sierra Leone, while I was last on the coast, was, in one or two instances of very small boats, not above six or seven tons, which had in one instance cattle and sheep on board. In the second instance I did not search her.

6842. You have stated that the Gallinas has been principally supplied with goods for the slave trade by foreign ships, and not by British traders?—That has been my statement.

6843. You have stated also that you would have felt it your duty to prevent English trading vessels entering there?—Under certain circumstances, which I have detailed.

6844. Are you not of opinion that if British commerce had been encouraged there, and more particularly if a British settlement had been formed there, British commerce would have been of material assistance in discountenancing and putting down the slave trade at the Gallinas?—Legitimate commerce at the Gallinas has been eradicated and annihilated by the sole influence of the slave trade. It existed there, and the slave trade annihilated it. Had a British settlement been formed there, the results might have been different.