10446. And you do not find that acting upon that principle has interfered with the fair success of your commerce?—I do not think it would; if it would, we should not care much about that, because we are in a position which is well known to many persons here, as well as to persons abroad. In [5495], Mr. Macaulay is asked, “What evidence have we that Zulueta knew that in dealing with Pedro Blanco, the goods he sold would be used for the barter of slaves.” I have said, that I had nothing to do with him; I never sold any goods to Pedro Blanco. The answer here is, “Any body engaged in the Spanish trade would be aware that Pedro Blanco was the largest slave trader in the world.” It may be so, that he is the largest in the world; but I can only say that the largest is very little, if that is the case, for I have spoken of 22,000l. as being the amount of the bills we have paid for him, which I have here (producing the same), to the order of several houses established in Sierra Leone, for goods, I suppose bought for him, amounting to about 22,100l. I only mention this with reference to the notoriety of his being such a large slave dealer, that it was impossible to shut your eyes to it. Then with respect to what is said in answer [5502], I only wish to remark upon this, that what I have answered already I believe applies to this. It is said, “I think that a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light, would have considered it improper to be so engaged.” I have observed already upon that, that the propriety or impropriety of our conduct is a different thing from the question whether we have been legally or illegally engaged, although the question with which I am now concerned is a general disclaimer of any participation in the slave trade.
10447. You agree with Mr. Macaulay’s opinion, “That a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light, would have considered it improper to be so engaged”?—I do not know whether my opinions would agree with Mr. Macaulay’s upon this subject, but I think that a man who in any way tried to elude the laws of his country, would be acting against his conscience in the highest degree; that is my impression of it, and that is what I mean to say; and with regard to the slave trade, I mean to carry out that which I have stated in my letter, that I look upon it as an evil, and I would wish to add nothing to that evil in any way, but to diminish what I could of it. As to the moral criminality of all the parties, I suppose that depends upon other considerations. Then in the Evidence of Captain Hill, in answer to [question 7161], it is stated here, “the Custom-house officers in Liverpool may be totally ignorant of the trade carried on at the Gallinas, and also totally ignorant of the trade carried on by Pedro Martinez & Co. at the Havannah.” All our shipments have been made through the Custom-house, giving the destinations of the vessels and every thing, and what we did was illegal; we should consider ourselves not justly treated altogether, in being allowed to do that which we say we are going to do, and then after it is done being told it is illegal, although before it is done we have the very sanction of the parties to do it, because we have no concern in it beyond the shipment, and the shipment is publicly made. In answer to [Question 7165], it is said, “I have never met a vessel belonging to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. on the coast of Africa.” Of course, we never had one, and therefore he never could meet with one. Then in answer to [Question 7958*], Mr. Hill states that he found a letter, dated London, 20th of August 1840, stating, “We cannot exceed 500l. for the vessel in question, such as described in your letter; if you cannot therefore succeed at those limits, we must give up the purchase.” But he says, “there is a note to the letter, which says, ‘According to our Liverpool mode, note, you will go on shore to the Salthouse Dock.’” Now I have been looking at our letter-book, and I am quite willing to suppose that the person who has stated this might not wish, of course, to state any thing that was incorrect; but this is altogether unintelligible to me. The Salthouse Dock is well known to every person acquainted with Liverpool; it is one of the docks in which vessels go and unload, and that is all. Our house might say that our custom was to send our vessels there; we generally do; but I do not understand this at all.
10448. Chairman. You do not understand what bearing it has upon the question?—I think the words must be badly copied; there is no such thing in our letter-book as it appears here; it is quite unintelligible to me.
10449. Sir T. D. Acland.] Is the other part of the letter correct, which is stated as bearing date the 26th of September 1840?—Yes.
10450. Have you referred to your own copy of the letter?—Yes, and it is not in our copy; but I can conceive our saying to the captain of the vessel, go into the Salthouse Dock, because we generally send our vessels there.
10451. Had you ever employed Jennings before?—Jennings had had charge of vessels before, chartered by Martinez, and hence the connexion between Martinez and Jennings. There are some captains in all trades, that make a great deal of difficulty about every thing, and others that do not; of course, merchants like to deal with those that do not, more than those that do.
10452. Chairman.] It would appear from [Question 5087], that your name is supposed to have been mentioned in a Parliamentary Paper, as connected with a slave trade transaction. Will you refer to page 38, in Class B. Paper of 1839 and 1840, which is the place referred to in the answer, and see if there is any trace of your name in that transaction?—I do not find my own name there; I only find an allusion at the bottom to the name of Pedro Martinez, but in a manner in no way connected with me, and stating a circumstance which I never knew. In [Question 7965*], it is stated, “The Augusta had touched at Cadiz on her way out from England?” The answer is, “Yes, and landed part of her cargo at Cadiz, although it was consigned to be delivered at Gallinas.” Now Captain Hill, who has given this answer, must have known why she touched at Cadiz, and why she discharged part of her cargo, for it must be in the log-book of the vessel. It was because she was nearly wrecked in her passage; she put into Cadiz in distress, and there she landed a part of her cargo, which was tobacco which was rotten, and sold for the benefit of the underwriters. Now that has not been stated here, but I think Captain Hill must have known it, because it is in the log-book of the vessel which he took.
10453. Chairman.] And the log-book he must have read?—I should think so; because if he has not done that he has done nothing. All I mean to say is that it is, an ex parte statement.
10454. Sir T. D. Acland.] It was not intended when she left England, that she should put into Cadiz?—Most certainly not; all the facts of the case show that she went there because she was obliged. I have not seen the log-book, but it must be there; because in the log-book the captain is bound to enter those things, and whoever captured the vessel must have seen the log-book of course. In answer to [Question 7967*], it is said, “Messrs. Zulueta must be aware that it is contrary to law to act as agents or otherwise for the shipment of goods that are to be employed in the slave trade; they were bound to do nothing illegal; they are merchants residing in England, and they must conform themselves to the laws of England, and they cannot by the laws of England plead ignorance of those laws.” Now I and my partners are British subjects, and therefore we are bound by the law, and we must obey the law; and I say that to endeavour to elude the law is criminal in my estimation of things. In the answer to [Question 7970*], it is stated, “I have endeavoured to be particular in making it appear that this vessel was chartered to a place where there were no constituted authorities.” I think that in the Gallinas there are constituted authorities. It is the first time that I ever heard that it is illegal for any merchant to ship goods for any places without ascertaining beforehand whether there are constituted authorities there. I believe that if they like to send goods to any place, they may do it; and as to the fact of there being constituted authorities in the place or not, I do not see what that has to do with the question; besides, there have been such things as treaties made with persons at the Gallinas, so that there must be some constituted authorities there. But I do not know why I should be called upon to know whether there are constituted authorities at the port or not. Then it is stated, in answer to [Question 7971*], “As far as I am able to give my own opinion, I believe that Messrs. Zulueta were perfectly criminal, at least they had a knowledge of what they were doing. I think I am borne out in that by the secrecy they have endeavoured to pursue in putting in a false owner.” I have answered all that before. I state again, that all the secrecy and mystery of the thing lies in supposing other things different from what appear. Then it is said, “In fact there can be no want of evidence to show that Messrs. Zulueta had for a length of time been agents to slave dealers.” Mr. Blanco and Mr. Martinez may have been engaged, as I have stated, in slave operations; and I have stated that we conducted their general business here.
10455. Mr. Forster.] Is not Pedro Blanco a partner in a commercial house at the Havannah who are general merchants?—Yes, I have stated that before.