The CHAIRMAN: Will you keep order? You have no right to say such things. We are not considering the question of powers, but the peaceful question of the extension of the franchise to-day; and keep to the point.

Mr. OTTO: Very well I will; but I call the whole country to witness that you silenced me, and would not allow me to speak out my mind.

The PRESIDENT said they had to distinguish between trustworthy persons and untrustworthy, and one proof was their going on commando, and the other was their becoming naturalized. People who were naturalized were more or less worthy, and if they separated themselves from the others who would not get naturalized, and petitioned the Raad themselves, the Raad would give ear to their petition. He strongly disapproved of the Raad being deceived in the manner it had been by the forged signatures.

Mr. R.K. LOVEDAY, in the course of an address dealing exhaustively with the subject, said: The President uses the argument that they should naturalize, and thus give evidence of their desire to become citizens. I have used the same argument, but what becomes of such arguments when met with the objections that the law requires such persons to undergo a probationary period extending from fourteen to twenty-four years before they are admitted to full rights of citizenship, and even after one has undergone that probationary period, he can only be admitted to full rights by resolution of the First Raad? Law 4 of 1890, being the Act of the two Volksraads, lays down clearly and distinctly that those who have been eligible for ten years for the Second Raad can be admitted to full citizenship. So that, in any case, the naturalized citizen cannot obtain full rights until he reaches the age of forty years, he not being eligible for the Second Raad until he is thirty years. The child born of non-naturalized parents must therefore wait until he is forty years-of age, although at the age of sixteen he may be called upon to do military service, and may fall in the defence of the land of his birth. When such arguments are hurled at me by our own flesh and blood—our kinsmen from all parts of South Africa—I must confess that I am not surprised that these persons indignantly refuse to accept citizenship upon such unreasonable terms. The element I have just referred to—namely, the Africander element—is very considerable, and numbers thousands hundreds of whom at the time this country was struggling for its independence, accorded it moral and financial support, and yet these very persons are subjected to a term of probation extending from fourteen to twenty-four years. It is useless for me to ask you whether such a policy is just and reasonable or Republican, for there can be but one answer, and that is 'No!' Is there one man in this Raad who would accept the franchise on the same terms? Let me impress upon you the grave nature of this question, and the absolute necessity of going to the burghers without a moment's delay, and consulting and advising them. Let us keep nothing from them regarding the true position, and I am sure we shall have their hearty co-operation in any reasonable scheme we may suggest. This is a duty we owe them, for we must not leave them under the impression that the Uitlanders are satisfied to remain aliens, as stated by some of the journals. I move amongst these people, and learn to know their true feelings, and when public journals tell you that these people are satisfied with their lot, they tell you that which they know to be false. Such journals are amongst the greatest sources of danger that the country has. We are informed by certain members that a proposition for the extension of the franchise must come from the burghers, but according to the Franchise Law the proposition must come from the Raad, and the public must consent. The member for Rustenberg says that there are 9,338 burghers who have declared that they are opposed to the extension of the franchise. Upon reference to the Report, he will find that there are only 1,564 opposed to the extension. Members appear afraid to touch upon the real question at issue, but try to discredit the memorials by vague statements that some of the signatures are not genuine, and the former member for Johannesburg, Mr. J. Meyer, seems just as anxious to discredit the people of Johannesburg as formerly he was to defend them.

The CHAIRMAN advanced many arguments in favour of granting the franchise to the Uitlander, but nevertheless concluded by stating that as the Raad with few exceptions were against the extension, he would go with the majority. He was not, he said, averse to the publication of Mr. Meyer's proposition, because the country would have to decide upon it; still he could not favour the extension of the franchise in the face of what had been said during the debate. Let the Raad endeavour to lighten the burden of the alien in other respects. Let the alien come to the Raad with his grievances, and let the Raad give a patient ear unto him, but he really was not entitled to the franchise.

The PRESIDENT again counselled the Raad not to consent to the publication of Mr. Meyer's proposal. He did not want it put to the country. This business had been repeated from year to year until he was tired of it. And why should they worry and weary the burghers once more by asking them to decide upon Mr. Meyer's motion? There was no need for it. There was no uncertainty about it. The burghers knew their minds, and their will, which was supreme, was known. The way was open for aliens to become burghers; let them follow that road and not try to jump over the wall. They had the privilege of voting for the Second Raad if they became naturalized, and could vote for officials, and that was more than they could do in the Cape Colony. In the Colony they could not vote for a President or any official. They were all appointed. They could only vote for Raad members there. And why should they want more power here all at once? What was the cause of all this commotion? What were they clamouring for? He knew. They wanted to get leave to vote for members of the First Raad, which had the independence of the country under its control. He had been told by these people that 'if you take us on the same van with you, we cannot overturn the van without hurting ourselves as well as you.' 'Ja,' that was true, 'maar,' the PRESIDENT continued, they could pull away the reins and drive the van along a different route.

Mr. JEPPE, again speaking, said there was one matter he must refer to. That was his Honour's remarks about the petitioners, calling them disobedient and unfaithful. The law compels no one to naturalize himself. How then could these petitioners have disobeyed it? Of course we should prefer them to naturalize. But can we be surprised if they hesitate to do so? Mr. Loveday has told you what naturalization means to them.

The PRESIDENT agreed that these people were not obliged by law to naturalize, but if they wanted burgher rights they should do so, when they would get the franchise for the Second Raad; and upon their being naturalized let them come nicely to the Raad and the Raad would have something to go to the country with, and they would receive fair treatment; but, if they refused naturalization and rejected the Transvaal laws, could they expect the franchise? No. Let Mr. Jeppe go back and give his people good advice, and if they were obedient to the law and became naturalized they would not regret it; but he could not expect his people to be made full burghers if they were disobedient and refused naturalization. Let them do as he advised, and he (the President) would stand by them and support them.

Mr. JEPPE said: His Honour has again asked me to advise the people of Johannesburg what to do regarding the extension of the franchise. He says they must first naturalize and then come again. Then he holds out hopes that their wishes will be met. Why then does he not support Mr. Meyer's proposal, which affects naturalized people only? What is it I am to advise the people of Johannesburg? I have had many suggestions from different members. You, Mr. Chairman, seem to support the hundred men from Lydenburg who suggest ten years' residence as a qualification. Mr. Jan Meyer suggests that those who came early to the goldfields should memorialize separately, and he would support them. Others say that only those who are naturalized should petition, and that if a few hundreds petitioned instead of 35,000, their reception would be different. Well, we have had one petition here wherein all these conditions were complied with. It was not signed by anyone who had not been here ten years, or who is not naturalized, or who could at all be suspected of being unfaithful, nor could any exception be taken to it on the ground of numbers, since it was signed by one man only, Mr. Justice Morice, and yet it was rejected. Gentlemen, I am anxiously groping for the light; but what, in the face of this, am I to advise my people?

Mr. JAN DE BEER endeavoured to refute Messrs. Jeppe's and Loveday's statements, when they said a man could not become a full member until he was forty. They were out of their reckoning, because a man did not live until he was sixteen. He was out of the country. In the eyes of the law he was a foreigner until he was sixteen. (Laughter.) The member adduced other similar arguments to refute those of Messrs. Jeppe and Loveday, causing much laughter.