He begged at this time in Borris O'Kane, Limerick, Ennis, Gort, Galway, Loughren, Ballinasloe, Mullingar, and preached 101 sermons since the previous 5th September. His begging tour ends in Dublin, about March, where he begins a new campaign of what he terms "his crusade."
He preached some controversial lectures in Dublin, dined and talked with Dissenting ministers, wrote a little newspaper controversy, and had a meeting in the Rotundo. This very active kind of work did not seem to suit his taste or spirit, and he changed very soon to another and a more congenial one—the conversational mode of advancing the Catholic cause.
He visited the leading men both in the Establishment and in the offices of State, and the conferences he held with them are so interesting that we shall relate a few of them in his own words. The extracts are taken from letters published by him in 1853, in the Catholic Standard, now The Weekly Register:—
Interview with Lord John Russell.
One day early in February, 1850, I had been on an expedition down to Westminster. I look back on all my walks during a certain period, that is, while I was constantly wearing my Passionist habit, as expeditions. Indeed they were eventful ones in their way. I was returning through Parliament Street; and having an hour to dispose of, as I passed by Downing Street, I thought I would now try, what I had long thought of, to have a conversation with the Premier. I asked, "Is Lord John Russell at home?" The messenger [query?] who came to the door looked at my figure with some surprise, then said, "Yes, sir, but he is engaged at present?" I said, "Will you be so good as to say to him that Lord Spencer's brother would wish to speak with him?" "Walk in, sir," he answered; and to my surprise, I must say, I found myself at once in a waiting-room, and five minutes later was introduced to Lord John. He rose to me, and kindly pointed to a chair. I said, "Do you remember me, my Lord?" "Oh, yes," he answered. I then proceeded: "I hardly know whether what I am now doing is wise or not; but I will explain my reason for asking to see your lordship and you will judge. You are aware, probably, that it is now some twenty years since I became a Catholic. Ever since that time, my whole mind has been bent on leading others to the same faith, and, in short, on the conversion of this country to Catholicity. For this end I have endeavoured, as far as it was possible, to move all Catholics throughout the world to pray for the conversion of England. I have also spoken with as many as I could of the leading men among the clergy of the Church of England and among Dissenting ministers, to move them also to pray that God would bring this country to unity in the truth wherever he sees it to be. I am almost always received agreeably on these occasions; for all seem to agree in what I think cannot be denied, that if there is anything which threatens ruin to the power and prosperity of this country it is our religious divisions." His lordship here, without speaking, intimated, as I understood, his assent to this last sentence; but interrupted me by asking more particularly: "What do you propose to Dissenters?" "The same," I said, "as to Anglicans; I conceive this prayer is proper for them all alike." ... I proceeded: "Among Catholics I find myself constantly met by the objection, that if they came forward openly, as I wish them to do, it would offend those in power in England. I answer them, I am convinced it would not; but in order to satisfy others rather than myself, I have at last thought it well to come to the first authority and ask. I will remark to your lordship why I say this. Among all Catholics, I am particularly intent on moving the Catholics of Ireland to undertake this cause. I first went to Ireland for the purpose in 1842. Now I look upon it as certain, that if the Irish had then undertaken, as I wished them, to pray for the conversion of England, and had persevered in that work out of charity, they would not, in 1848, have thought of making pikes against England; and this would have saved our Government some millions of pounds, perhaps. Pikes are well enough in their place, but I consider that charity would not have prompted the making of them on this occasion. Again, I will say that my favourite individual object in Ireland is to enlist in my cause your lordship's illustrious correspondent, Dr. M'Hale; and it is my opinion that it would improve the style of his letters if there were introduced into them some expressions of charity towards England." Lord John slightly smiled, and then proceeded with his answer, as follows: "In answering you, I beg to be understood that I do not speak as a minister; but I will tell what I think as an individual. The entire liberty which exists in this country for every one to think as he pleases, and to speak what he thinks, makes it appear to me difficult to conceive how a reunion of all the different religious opinions could be effected. That is at least a distant prospect. But anything which would tend to a diminution of the spirit of acrimony, and of the disposition of people of opposite opinions to misrepresent one another's views, must do good." Then he added, in a very pleasing tone: "And I will tell you, that I consider the body to which you belong is the one which suffers the most from such misrepresentations." I said then: "After hearing your lordship's answer, given with such kindness, I am quite happy at having come; and I think I may infer from what you have said, that you perfectly approve of my proceedings, for the tendency of them entirely is to remove the misapprehensions which exist, on both sides, of the others principles. I am convinced that Catholics generally have a mistaken idea of what respectable Protestants are; and there is no doubt Protestants are very widely wrong in their opinions of Catholics. I am working to counteract this error on both sides."
To this he did not reply; and as I had gained all that I desired, I rose to take my leave, and said: "I frequently say to persons with whom I have had conversations like this, what I will now say to your lordship, that I do not promise secrecy concerning them; but I request, as a favour, that if they should ever hear of my making what they consider an improper use of anything that they have said, they would call me to account for it." On this sentence, likewise, he made no remark, but added again: "I repeat once more that I have not spoken as a minister, as I do not think this is a matter with which I have any concern in that character." I replied: "I understand you, my Lord; yet I will say that it appears to me, that I have reasons to have addressed your lordship in your public character." His lordship smiled, slightly bowed, and I withdrew.
Interview with Lord Clarendon.
I am very happy at finding myself with my pen in hand, to give an account of my interviews with another distinguished member of our Government; at least, as far as what passed bears on the subject of these letters, the enterprise of England's conversion:—I mean Lord Clarendon, while he was Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. His lordship and I were formerly fellow-collegians and friends at Cambridge; but from the year 1819, when I left Trinity College, we never saw each other till November 13, 1850, when I had an audience from him at the Viceregal Lodge in the Phoenix Park, at Dublin. When I had been in Ireland in 1848, the thought had crossed my mind that I should be pleased to have a conversation with him, but I put it away as a strange idea, not worth entertaining. In 1850, I returned to Ireland, and starting from the Synod of Thurles, at the beginning of September, I had what I would call my grand campaign among the Irish people. From the beginning of September to the end of April, I preached 170 sermons to them on the enterprise of the conversion of England, which at that time I used to call the Crusade for England; besides a number, past reckoning, of addresses to convents and schools, and private conversations to the same intent. This career was interrupted in the middle of November, when I came for six weeks to England. As I was approaching Dublin to cross the water, my strange idea revived, but its aspect was more inviting. The result of my visit to Lord John Russell had been so encouraging, that I wrote to Lord Clarendon, and asked permission to pay him my respects, as I passed through Dublin. He sent me a very kind answer to the place which I had pointed out, naming an hour on the day named above—half-past one, November 13—at which time I was introduced into his private room at the Lodge. One of his first remarks was that circumstances were greatly changed with us both since our last meeting. Indeed, they were, as any one would have said who had seen him as George Villiers, of St. John's, and me as George Spencer, of Trinity, walking together in our college gowns, at Cambridge, and now should see him in his grand Viceregal Palace, and me before him in my poor Passionist's habit; and is it not something to be looked upon with satisfaction, that we should now have a conversation for an hour and a half, of which, though the matter was something far more weighty than what would very probably have occupied us then, the tone which he gave to it was such, that one might have supposed our familiar acquaintance had never been interrupted? The conversation was throughout very interesting to me; but this does not seem to me the time nor the place to relate what passed, excepting those passages which bore directly upon my present subject.
I do not remember how, in the course of it, Lord Clarendon was led to say: "I see in the papers that you have been preaching in several places." I answered: "Yes, I have; and the principal object of my asking for this interview with your lordship, was to tell you the subject of my preaching, and to ask what you think of it. I am preaching to the Irish people a crusade for the conquest of England."
I am not clear whether it was before saying these words, or after, that I related to him the conversation I had had with Lord John Russell in the same way in which it was given in my last letter. However this might be, I perfectly remember the way in which he replied. He appeared at the first moment to be surprised; then fixed upon me one rather searching look; and then deliberately said: "Taking the view of things which you do, I think you are right."
* * * *
Lord Clarendon, knowing that I was next day to start for England, concluded by most kindly expressing a wish to see me again, when I should be passing at some future time through Dublin.
After six weeks I returned to renew my circuit in Ireland, and returning to Dublin about the middle of January, though I had no reason particularly for wishing to speak again with Lord Clarendon, I considered that it was in some way a duty of propriety to ask for an interview, as he had been pleased to request it at the close of the first visit. Accordingly, after some time for reflection, I wrote him a letter to this effect, and he appointed me half-past eleven on Saturday, February 8, 1852. This time it was in Dublin Castle that I saw him, being ushered into his private room through the muskets, bayonets, and other arms—not ancient pieces, for curiosity, as at Alton Towers, but arms of the most modern style, ready for use—with which the hall and great staircase seemed to me as though wainscoted throughout. I apologised soon after entering at taking up so much of his time; and again somewhat later I offered to withdraw, however interesting was the conversation to myself. He answered, "Oh, no! I am very glad to see you. They will soon tell me of Sir Thomas Reddington being come for business: till then I am free." I will now relate only one or two passages of this conversation, as being, I conceive, of peculiar consequence to my present purpose. I was saying something of my continued endeavours to move the Irish to pray for England, and I suppose remarking that this must have a salutary effect on the feelings of the people. He said with an incredulous smile: "And do you think the Irish pray for England?" "I have no doubt whatever," I answered, "that a great many do, but it is as yet nothing to what I desire to bring them to." With a still more incredulous look, he added: "Do you think they pray for England at Maynooth?" "Well, my Lord,' I only know that whenever I visit Maynooth the superiors appoint me a time for addressing the students assembled (he looked evidently pleased at hearing this); and will you listen," I continued, "to a sentence of one of my half-hour's addresses to them? I began it without well knowing what I was going to say; but when I had finished I said to myself, I have said one good thing at least which I shall one day turn to account. It was soon after the publication of Lord John Russell's Durham letter. I said to them, 'Will you allow me to offer you one word of advice? You will just now be tempted most probably to say some violent things; especially some violent things of Lord John Russell. Now I would ask you, Do you know Lord John Russell? I suppose one and all would tell me no. The advice I was going to offer is that you should not speak evil of what you do not know.'" Lord Clarendon said: "Did you say that?" I said: "Yes, my lord." He added emphatically: "That was good." After I had risen to leave him, I said: "My Lord, I have been often citing your Excellency, since our first conversation, as one of those who entirely approve of my proceedings." "What do you mean?" he quickly answered. "Did I not tell you I would shed the last drop of my blood to stop the progress of your religion?" "I perfectly remember that," I said; "what I mean is that you approved of my way of acting, considering what I am." "Oh," he replied, "I understand you. If every one acted as you do, we should have nothing to complain of." This conversation lasted from three-quarters of an hour to an hour.
Interview with Lord Palmerston.
I am sometimes reminded of a story I heard of a groom, who had to show off one of his master's horses, which he wished to sell. Among all the other good qualities for which he had praised the animal, as he stood behind him in the stable, being asked by the intended purchaser, "What do you say of his temper?" he had just answered, "Oh, he is as quiet as a lamb," when the horse kicked out, struck the poor groom full in the pit of the stomach, and drove the breath out of him. But he must stand to his text, and with wondrous promptness he was just able to utter, "Ach— playful toad!" So I will have our poor people hoped for, prayed for, borne with and loved, with all their effigy burnings, with all their meetings to hear Dr. Cumming or Mr. Stowell, with all their awful Popery sermons, and, moreover, with the two or three thumps on the head, and other pieces of genteel treatment which I met with myself, while I walked about in my habit, before the Derby proclamation gave me some time to breathe again.