The Bailiff then rang the bell, and the beadles came. I then said to the priest: “If my lord had not been present, I would not have made so many words with you.” “That I believe,” said the priest. I took off my cap and bade them good evening, and they me. And I said to the pastor and begged him, that if I had spoken any word too hastily, he should excuse me for it. “Yes,” said the Bailiff, “and so do you to him, do you not?” “Yes,” said I: and thus we parted.
It further happened that they confined us all three in separate places, apart from one another, and took away the Bible from us, one which they themselves had let us have, and which the Bailiff had previously consented that we might have; but we remained of very good cheer, the Lord be praised.
On Sunday, the 16th of July, 1570, I was taken down again, and they tied my arms, which they had never done before, for I had gone down with the jailer, fettered together with another. This surprised me much, whereupon the beadles told me, that the priests had required it of the Bailiff. Thus they brought me before two priests, namely, Mr. Maerten, and the pastor of the New Church, who had once before been to see me. When I came to them, I bade them good day, and they returned the salutation. Then they said: “We have visited you once, and now we come again, to see whether you are not more willing to yield, than you were the other time.” I said: “I say as I have already said: If it can be proved to me clearly and expressly, that infants were baptized, I will gladly suffer myself to be instructed:” With this answer they were not well pleased, since they have no Scripture for it. But they asserted that I must suffer myself to be instructed, and that infants had of a long time been baptized in the Christian church; and that it had always been an ordinance; but I held to the proof furnished by the practice of the apostles. They said that we ought to walk in the old paths. “Yes, in the right ones,” said I; “thus it is written.” Jer. 6:16. They had come to instruct me. “Yes,” said I, “I cannot understand it so.” This they did not like to hear, that I could not understand it; and they said: “You want to understand it before you accept it.” “It is written,” said he, “in the prophet Isaiah, that we must first accept it, before we believe it.” “Where is this written?” said I. “I do not know,” said the priest. “Rom. 10:10,” said I, “we read: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.’ I must certainly believe your things with the heart, if I am to accept them: but now I cannot understand it as you do.” This they would not hear; but if I had soundly assented with the mouth to what they said, whether I had believed it or not, it would have been all right.
They begged me much, that I should suffer my self to be instructed, there was not a day that they did not pray for us. They also frequently said that I had strange views, and that I was damned; if I were not damned, God would not be God, he said; and the Scriptures would not be true; this he often said. To be damned, and to lie in prison, these are not good things, said I; for I said as little to them as I could. But the damning did not hurt me; I let them say on. I said: “If you can prove to me, that infants were baptized, I would like to hear it.” They said that whole households were baptized, and declared that there must have been children there. Ans. That you do not know, for there are households in which are no children; I also do not seek salvation from the water.” When they heard this they were greatly astonished. “Yes,” said I, “you say that all unbaptized children are damned.” “Yes,” said the priest, “they are damned.” “Then the women who give birth to such children are badly off.” “Yes,” said the priest. “Indeed,” said I, “then the water must wash away sin?” “Yes,” said they. Ans. “I shall prove to you, that it does not.” I then told them, that in Peter 3:21 it is written: “ ‘The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also save us, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience.’ And the apostle baptized Simon the sorcerer but the water did not remove his sins, for it is written that he was in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity, though he had been baptized by the apostles.” “You say of Peter,” said the priest, “that he writes this; how do you know if it is true? Did Peter tell you himself? And Simon the sorcerer was a worthless fellow for if the apostles had known that his heart was in this condition, they would rather have bitten their fingers, than pronounced the name of God over him.” Ans. “This I admit; but the water did nevertheless not wash away his sins.” And they asserted that I must suffer myself to be instructed, and said that I acted contrary to the Scriptures, for it is written, Matthew 18: If thy brother shall trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he will not hear thee, tell it to the college. “See,” said they “You will not hear us now that we rebuke you; in this you certainly act contrary to the Scriptures.” Ans. “What would you teach me then? Would you let me go then, and shun me as a heathen and a publican?” “No, no,” said the priest, “this is your favorite theme, which you always bring up.” (for I had had many words with him in regard to it the last time;) but to let me go was not in their power, he said. Ans. “Christ certainly says, when they are reproved, and will not hear, they are to be shunned, and not apprehended. And Paul also says: A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject. Tit. 3:10. And now I will not hear you, hence you ought to let me go.” But they did not listen to this that was the magistracy’s business, they said. Ans. “You certainly have a faith; show me once where the apostles had magistrates in their church.
Then the priest said that Peter had killed two persons. Ans. “You cannot prove that to me, neither by word nor deed.” Then he read from a German Testament, that Ananias and his wife sold their possessions; and did not bring all and lay it at the apostles’ feet, but kept back a part of it. Then Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and gave up the ghost. Three hours after his wife came, and Peter asked her too, whether they had sold the land for so much. She said: Yea. Peter said to her: How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet and yielded up the ghost. Acts 5. When he had read, I said: “Who can say that Peter did it, for it reads that when they heard these words they gave up the ghost.” We had many words which I have partly forgotten; they begged me to suffer myself to be instructed. “Well,” said I, “I can not understand it so.” To this they would not listen, that I would first understand it, before I accepted it; and they said that their faith had always existed for fifteen hundred years; they would show to me from year to year, how their church had been built up, and they named to me many of their teachers or bishops, Augustine and others; how it first came from Spain into France, whence St. Willeboort brought it into these countries; and many other things did they tell me. And though whole countries apostatized from them, there were large countries again that adopted their faith, as for instance in India, where the Lord did great signs, so that there were persons who in one month learned another language, and accepted the faith, and even preached within one month; and many other things they told me. I asked whether that country was large. They said: “As large as Spain, France, Germany and this country taken together.” Thus their faith had always existed, and could not perish, for Christ had said: “I will be with you unto the end of the world;” but our faith had not existed so long; for [said they] you can not prove to us, that your church has always existed. “I know,” said the priest, “that you will name to me five or six persons.” Then I said; It would have been much better, if he had heard Micaiah, than the four hundred false prophets. (The king of Judah, 1 Kings, 22.) They tried hard to draw me out, as to whether I was baptized, but the Lord kept my lips, and I did not tell them. They had heard it said, they told me. I asked whether they had heard me say it. They said: “No.” I replied: “I do not want to tell you either.” They said: “We do not wish to know it.”
And when they found that I would not listen to them, they told me time and again that I was damned, and that I was a murderer of souls, that I had murdered many souls, and they had heard it said that I had caused many to apostatize from the Roman church. I said: “I have murdered no one’s soul.” He said: “You say that we are murderers ourselves.” I said: “You have not heard me say that.” They told me to consider the matter, and if I desired it, they would come again. Thus we parted amicably.
These are the principal points of our conversation, for it lasted about two hours. I should not be able to write the whole of it, for I can not remember it, and it would be impossible for me to give the exact conversation, without leaving out or adding to it.
Written by me, Jan Hendrickss.
ANOTHER LETTER BY JAN HENDRICKSS, TO MAERTEN JANSS, HIS FELLOW-PRISONER.
The eternal God of all grace, who has called us with a heavenly calling, from the power of Satan into his eternal, marvelous kingdom, strengthen and confirm you, my brother Maerten Janss, with his holy word, and give you the power of the Spirit, that you may be able to resist all the wicked wiles of the Evil One, whether through himself, or through his emissaries, so that you may be able to stand in this grace; and grant you and me a valiant faith, firmly rooted and grounded, that you may neither be moved nor cast down by the great tempest of false doctrine. This, I Jan Hendrickss, your weak fellow-brother in imprisonment, tribulation and affliction, wish Maerten Janss, my dear brother, in his bonds and imprisonment, as a friendly salutation in the Lord, for the refreshing of your mind. Amen.