They asked me a great deal. I said: “Go away from me; for you are not of God.” They replied: “We are.” I said: “Away! go away from me, go from me, and come no more where I am.” Much more yet took place, but it would take too long to write it. Finally they went away, and I was led back into my cell.
On Sunday I was taken to the house of the Judges where the court was assembled. There were also present there Salome, Sir Cornelis, Dean of Kestenne, Ronse, and Polet. I was placed in the middle, firmly bound, and held by two thief-catchers. I said: “My lords, what is your wish?” Ronse. “This will be told you.” They then read the confession of my faith, which they had written in prison, and asked me whether I was still of the same mind. I replied: “Yes; I am still ready to go into the fire for it.” Ronse asked whether I did not believe that Christ had taken his flesh from Mary. I said: “No.” Then it seemed as though Sir Cornelis would faint away; he blessed and crossed himself much, and all were horrified. There was a little discussion about it; but they, like dragons, breathed their poison into the judges, each taking a judge, and said: “True, it is written so; but he has not the understanding; the Scriptures want to be understood.” And they adduced many far-fetched sophisms, and filled the ears of the lords, and asked me many sophistical questions. I said: “I have confessed my faith to you; be satisfied therewith; and I pray you, not that I am worthy of it, but by the crimson blood of our dear Lord, let me in peace; you have my faith, and hold me in your hands here: be satisfied, and do what you please.”
Then Ronse asked me whether I had not been present somewhere, and adjured me three times by my baptism, that I should tell who was present. I told him that I would not tell him one word. Ronse said: “You have denied your baptism; Menno will take it ill, that you deny your baptism.” I said: “My faith and baptism I know, but with your adjuration I have nothing to do; I thereby know that you are sorcerers.” Then Polet said: “We may swear.” I replied: “See Matt. 5, whether he does not prohibit swearing altogether.” They said: “No.” I said. “Yes.” Then Polet looked into a Bible which they had brought with them, a large book, and it read there just as I had said.
Thereupon Sir Cornelis said: “The Bible is false; our Latin Bible reads differently.” I said: “Do you bring false books to me? Why do you say it is false? And it is privileged—why then do you let them circulate with privilege, seeing you examine them?” He replied: “I did not examine them.” I said: “Some of the learned men at Louvain.” Then Ronse whispered to Sir Cornelis Roose and said: “It is true, they are examined, and were good, but the printer had a boy, who misprinted them, while his master was gone to town. Ronse asked me how it came that I so easily believed a man whom I perhaps would never more see, and suffered myself to be baptized by him; and that I would not believe them, whom I saw daily, yea, them who were present and had instructed me at this time and before, as they said, and why I would not believe my pastor, who daily preached the gospel. I replied [that I did not believe him] because he was a liar, and that I had heard him preach that it could nowhere be found written that Mary was a mother and a virgin. But (he said) because their church taught it, therefore it had to be believed. Therefore, said I, I will not hear him, since I had read the contrary in Isaiah (7:14), and in Matthew and in other places. Having thus heard lies proceed out of your mouth, I after this heard neither you nor any other, and I hope by the grace of the Lord I never shall.” He said: “No.” I said: “Yes, and I offer my body to the rack, against yours.” But he had no desire for it, and said: “What! should I go to the rack? You assert that our church is not good, because we are not blameless; are you blameless? There are such of your people that have committed murder, because men would not believe them, nay, would not adhere to their doctrine.” I said: “Did you see this in me, or anything else that is unseemly? I am here in the hands of the judges, that they punish me for it.” Ronse said: “We know nothing of this kind of you.” I said: “Then don’t tell me what another does, nor consider me bad on account of the misdeeds of others. No one is to bear the burden of another; you are not to bear mine, nor I yours. The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Gal. 6:5; Ezekiel 18:20.
Much more yet was said by them, but it is not worth while to write it. They also said that Christ had said that the scribes and the Pharisees sat in Moses’ seat, and that he had commanded us to do after their commandments, but not after their works; therefore, said they, do what we advise you, but do not after our works, since Christ teaches this. Matthew 23:1,2. I asked: “Who did Christ say sat in Moses’ seat?” Ans. “The Pharisees.” I asked again: “Does this Scripture belong to you?” Ans. “Yes.” I said: “Then you confess that you are of their generation?”
Then Sir Cornelis, the parish priest, asked me why I did not believe in one article of the Roman church. I doubtless believed that Christ was crucified, which the Roman church also believes, which was certainly an article; and why I believed that Matthew’s gospel was gospel, which was nowhere written; [he also said that] he would show me that Paul wrote before the evangelists. I then said: “Show me that Paul wrote before Matthew.” Sir Cornelis said: “What have you to do with that?” I replied: “Should I have nothing to do with it? my life and soul are at stake, according to what you say.” Sir Cornelis said: “He is overcome.” I said: “Be silent, you are not worthy of being spoken to, and see that you do not say in my absence, that you overcame me, or that I have the devil in me, or condemn me among the simple people, and deceive them still more.” Then Ronse said: “You are damned, if you remain so.” I said: “Why?” Ronse replied: “Because you believe not.” I said: “I do believe, and I adhere so firmly to my faith, that I would rather go into the fire, than transgress a single point.”
Much more took place which would be too long to write. Finally I was led back into prison, where two shackles were put on me. I said: “I am ready, not only to suffer myself to be shackled, but also to die the most ignominious death for the name of the Lord.” Acts 21:13.
On Monday Polet and the fat-monger came, and asked me how it was with me. I told them that it had never been as well, for which I praised the Lord. They said that they were very glad of it. Polet then said: “Joos, how can your cause and your church be good—the Germans have a congregation, and the English have one; but where are the members of your congregation? You alone are not a church. Let us hear whether you are also a flock, and who your members are.” Then said I five or six times: “Get thee behind me, and depart from me, Satan;” whereupon they both ran away. Then I said: “Now you speak; at the judgment another shall speak.” Thus I saw them no more. I have heard that I am to be severely tortured; for they think to obtain from me all the particulars; but I trust the Lord, that he will keep my lips. Hence, pray the Lord for me, that he will succor me, for they thirst for much blood; but they can do no more than the Lord permits them. Therefore I commend myself into the hands of the Lord; and anything you may hear which is not in this letter, regard as lies. In token of the truth I hope to seal this letter with my blood. To this end may God give his grace, that his name may be praised thereby.
ANOTHER LETTER OR CONFESSION OF JOOS KINDT.
To the praise of the Father.