A few days afterwards the Dean of Ronse, an inquisitor in the country of Flanders, came, and with him, said Peter de Backer, who had visited us first, and other false prophets. When I appeared before them, the Dean asked my name. I replied that my name was Hans de Vette. Then he asked me whether I was married. I replied: “Yes.” He then asked me whether my wife was also of Waesten. I replied: “Yes.” He asked me how long I had been married. I said: “Not very long.” He asked me, in what church and by what parish priest I had been married. I asked him whether we found anything said in the Scriptures, that a parish priest was required for it. He said that in the world whores and knaves come together without parish priests. Then I said that I had done this according to the direction of the Scriptures, as permitted by Paul, in order to avoid fornication, it being better to marry than to burn (1 Cor. 7:2,9); whores and knaves on the contrary will much rather burn than marry, as is abundantly seen and heard in this wicked world in many thousands of instances. He then said that this was a small matter, and that if I had done nothing more, it could easily have been arranged; however, I should only tell him where it took place. I told him that I did not intend to tell him. Then he adjured me by the living God, that I should tell him; but I made no reply. Thereupon he asked me why I had not continued in the faith of the Roman church, and in her worship. My reply was, that I had separated from her so as not to become a partaker of her plagues, since darkness can have no communion with light, nor Christ with Belial, nor the righteous with the unrighteous, etc. Hence we must come out from among her. Rev. 18:4; 2 Corinthians 6:14,17.
He then asked me what I thought of the seven sacraments, part of which he named to me. I replied that I considered them utterly worthless, because of all the abominable idolatry observed by them; but since the Lord has commanded us to confess his name before men, I said that I would confess my faith to him. He said that I should. I then began to make my confession; as that I believed in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, sea and waters, and all there is therein; and who created man after his image. Him alone we must serve, honor, worship, and love with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our thoughts, since he alone is good; forsaking all idols, whether of gold, silver, stone, metal, wood, bread, or of whatever other make or substance they may be, even as they are rejected and prohibited in the holy Scriptures; for we know that an idol is nothing in the world, 1 Cor. 8:4.
As I continued to speak, the Dean of Ronse said to me that I was making it too long, to write it all down. “You would make us too much work,” he said, “if you should thus confess your faith from the beginning of the Bible.” “I also believe,” said he, “what you have said here; but what do you say of the sacrament of baptism as used in our church; to which every one must come, in order to be saved?” I replied that I considered infant baptism worthless, since it was not commanded of God. He said that circumcision was a figure of it, and that all the children that were not circumcised in the Old Testament, or are not baptized in the New Testament, must be damned. I then said, in accordance with his own words: “Then the female children in the Old Testament must all be damned.” He became angry, and said that what I advanced was only sophistry. I told him that he should be ashamed to say that children were damned, to whom as the Lord says, the kingdom of heaven belongs. He said that I lied in this. And another priest told me that one of Paul’s disciples writes that he had learned infant baptism from his teacher, Paul. Thereupon I said that Paul writes that we should not be shaken in mind, neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter, as sent from them; or even though an angel from heaven should come, and teach us anything different from what is written in the holy Gospel, he should be accursed. 2 Thess. 2:2. I also asked him to show me where the Lord had commanded to baptize children, or to prove that the apostles baptized infants; which he could not do.
Again, he asked me how long ago I had been baptized. I replied: “Not yet a year.” He asked me where and by whom I had been baptized; but I did not tell him. He then adjured me three times by the living God, and by the baptism which I had received, that I should tell him. I said that Caiaphas so adjured Christ. He replied that Christ spoke. I said that Christ spoke for himself; but that when he was questioned concerning his disciples, he did not speak.
He then asked me what I held concerning the sacrament of the altar. I told him that I considered it nothing less than an unclean, rotten, putrid idolatry, and an abomination before God. He asked: “How? Do you not believe that he is present in it in flesh and blood, just as he walked upon the earth, or as he hung upon the tree of the cross?” “Far be it from me,” said I, “that I should believe that Christ’s flesh and blood are here upon earth; for Christ himself said to his apostles, that we should always have the poor with us, but that we should not always have him.” Matt. 26:11.
He thereupon told me that he was not thus present in the sacrament, but that it was in spiritual substance, and that I did not understand the matter; but that this argument had been established many centuries before my time; for when Christ held his supper he said, he took the bread and gave it to his disciples, and said: “Take, eat; this is my body.” I replied that the bread which Christ gave to his disciples, he gave them as an emblem of his body which was to be broken for them; even as he has represented himself by figures in many places of Scripture. In John (15:1) he says: “I am the true vine;” yet in reality he was no vine, but he compared himself to a vine. Thus the bread which Christ brake for his disciples, was spiritually a figure of his body; for he says in John 6; “Flesh and blood profit nothing; but the words that I speak are spirit and life.” He said that this was irrelevant; “for if Christ were not present,” said he, “how could we eat damnation thereby?” But I replied: “If it were the flesh and blood of Christ; we would not eat damnation thereby: for Christ says himself; ‘Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life.’ John 6:54. Hence these words must not be understood literally, but spiritually, namely, that if one who was still a drunkard, or covetous, or an idolater, or the like, should go to the Lord’s Supper with the church of Christ, whose head is Christ, such an one would be unfit to break bread with the members of Christ, not discerning Christ’s body.” 1 Cor. 11:29. Then he said that there were many among us, who were drunkards, adulterers, and the like, and that they were well known to him. I then asked him: “Who are they?” He said: “J. de R.” I then asked him where he lived. He replied: “I shall not tell you.” I said that I well knew if there were such in our church, and were known, they would, according to the Scriptures, be put away and excluded. 1 Cor. 5:11.
He then asked me, who had baptized me. And when he could not learn it from me, he adjured me, but I did not tell him. Then his secretary said: “I will wager you a pot of wine, that you will tell it before a fortnight has passed;” but I would not bet. He then asked me how often I had observed the Supper. I replied that I had sometimes observed it, when opportunity offered itself, with many dear brethren and sisters. He asked: “With whom? what are their names?” I gave him the name of one of them, whom he specially named in his question. He then inquired concerning others, whether I regarded them as my brethren, or whether they were only friends or novices; “for I have learned all this Flemish,” said he, “about novices [aencomelingen, i. e. newcomers], friends and brethren.” I said: “I thought you were from Brabant; do you understand so much Flemish?” “I hardly know what I am.” he said; “perhaps I am a foundling.” “Yes,” said I, “John’s Revelation (13:1) speaks of a beast, which rose up out of the sea; you may belong to that race.”
He then asked me whether I did not believe that Jesus Christ had assumed flesh and blood from Mary. I replied that I believed that the Word which was in the beginning with God, and by which the world was created, became flesh. Then he said that according to the flesh he was David’s son. I replied: “If he is David’s son, Christ himself says: How then doth David call him Lord?” He said that Christ only adduced this to the Pharisees by way of argument; but Matthew, said he, describes his generation from Abraham to Mary. I replied, that Matthew traces the generation of Christ only to Joseph, the husband of Mary of whom Christ was born; and Luke says that Jesus was supposed to be the son of Joseph. “But,” said he, “do you not believe that Mary is the mother of Christ?” I said: “Yes; Christ says: ‘Whosoever shall do the will of my Father, the same is my mother, sister and brother.’ ” Matt. 12:50.
He then said that Christ was of the seed of the woman. But I told him, that women had no seed themselves: for as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman. 1 Cor. 11:12. Then he said that he was of Mary’s substance and blood. But I replied that Christ said to the Jews, that he was from above, but they from beneath; “ye are of this world,” he said; “I am not of this world.” John 8:23. Moreover, the apostle says: “The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.” 1 Cor. 15:47. I then told them that they should repent of their unrighteousness, persecution, and false, idolatrous doctrine. They said: “We have the true doctrine.” I said that Paul nevertheless commands us to avoid such as command to abstain from meats, which God has created for the use of them that believe; and who forbid to marry, and have their conscience seared with a hot iron; for it is better to marry than to burn; but you people, contrary to the Scriptures, command to abstain from meats, and forbid to marry, and will rather burn than marry. 1 Tim. 4:2,3; 1 Cor. 7:9.
Dean. “We do not forbid to marry.”