Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.
Mr. Livermore said he was against any discrimination between the soldier and other public creditor, who held a public security, made payable to bearer, and consequently transferable, with intent that they might be sold, if convenience or necessity should require it. This had been understood by all parties, as well in America as in foreign countries, and they had been sold accordingly. The advocates for discrimination have not denied this; they have only alleged that the low rate at which the poor soldier or other public creditor had sold his securities was a sufficient reason for Congress to interfere and set aside the sale. In opposition to this, he observed, that persons had a right to buy and sell at such prices as they could mutually agree upon, provided there was no fraud.
A diamond, a horse, or a lot of ground, might be sold too cheap, or too dear, and so might any other property; but Government could not interfere without destroying the general system of law and justice. Esau had sold his birthright for a mess of pottage, and heaven and earth had confirmed the sale. The distresses of the army, both officers and soldiers, at the time they received and sold their securities, had been painted in too strong colors. They were not so emaciated by sickness and famine as had been represented. They were crowned with victory, and received with applause by their fellow-citizens; and although they had been paid in paper, their loss had been made up by large bounties, and in other emoluments; so that, in point of property, they were equal to their fellow-citizens who had borne the burden of taxes under which many are laboring to this day. Let them be called brave soldiers, patriotic soldiers, but not poor soldiers. They ought to be governed by the same system of justice that governs others; but their contracts ought not to be set aside out of partiality to them. The case quoted from the statute of Queen Anne is not applicable to this case, inasmuch as Government had not originally made the debentures therein mentioned transferable. Neither did the case of the Canada bills apply; for, as he understood, those bills were paid to British merchants and to others who had purchased them.
Mr. Madison.—If paper, or the honor of statues or medals can discharge the debts of justice, payable in gold or silver, we can not only exonerate ourselves from those due to the original holders, but from those of the assignees. So far as paper goes, the latter have received the compensation. If honor can discharge the debt, they have received civil honors; look around to the officers of every Government in the Union, and you find them sharing equal honors with those bestowed on the original creditors. But, sir, the debt due in gold and silver is not payable either in honor, appointments, or in paper.
Gentlemen say it will work injustice; but are we not as much bound to repair the injustice done by the United States? Yet I do not believe the assertion has been established by any thing that has been urged in its support. The gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Stone) acknowledges that there is a moral obligation to compensate the original holders; how will they get what he admits is their due? He is willing to make an effort, by applying the resources of the country to that purpose; but if we are to judge by the sentiments of other gentlemen who have spoken on this occasion, we have little to expect from that quarter. Suppose the debt had depreciated to a mere trifle, and suppose the sale of the Western Territory had extinguished the certificates, let me ask, whether, if the United States had thus exonerated themselves from the obligation to the assignee, whether the claim of the original holder would not still remain in its full force in a moral view? But believing the point of justice to be exhausted, I will just add one remark upon the practicability. The transferred certificates, generally, will show the names of the original holders, and here there is no difficulty. With respect to those granted to the heads of either of the five great departments, the books of the Treasurer of Loans, as well as the accounts of those departments now in the Treasury, will designate, with a great degree of accuracy, and this may be followed up by the usual mode of obtaining evidence; and I believe every security may be provided against fraud in this case that was provided in the case of the commissioners who were sent into the respective States for ascertaining and liquidating the claims of individuals. That there will be some difficulty I admit, but it is enough for me that it is not insuperable; and I trust, with the assistance which the cause of equity and justice will ever obtain from the members of the National Legislature, they will easily be surmounted.
Monday, February 22.
Public Credit.
The House then resolved itself into a committee on the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.
Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.
Mr. Page.—As the worthy and eloquent member who replied to me did not answer the questions I put to the committee, I suppose, he either did not hear them, did not understand me, or could not answer them. I hope, before the committee decide, they will attempt at least to resolve them. I asked, where is the injustice of the State's complying with its engagements made to the first holders of certificates as far as the case admits? Where is the justice of doing more for the assignee than he or his assignor expected could or would be done? Where is the breach of faith in Government, if it paid its whole debt with justice, blended with mercy? Where is the interference in contracts, when the proposition is to comply sacredly, as far as the case will admit, with the contracts between a State and its creditors? I asked, is not the assignment of certificates confirmed by the motion? Does it not give to the assignee the very thing stipulated to be given, that is, whatever sum Government shall be pleased to pay for the certificates, for that was the condition of the assignment? And is not the sum now proposed more than either the first or last holder, till within these few days, supposed would be paid him? I asked also, ought not an honest assignee to be pleased that Government intends to do that justice to his assignor which he ought to do himself, were the whole payment made to him? I asked, of what is the assignee deprived but of his late sanguine expectations? I asked, whether the proposition before us does not rather establish confidence in Government than the contrary? For, sir, to make use of the comparison which has been often made here between the State and an obligor on a bond, what could give more credit to any man's bonds than to find that, though they had depreciated to half a crown in the pound, he paid the whole twenty shillings; ten shillings to the assignee, who had given but two shillings and sixpence, and ten to the obligee who had sold at so great a loss?