Mr. Harper said, the naval defence which this House thought necessary for the service of the country having been voted, he could not agree with those gentlemen who consider this as a question of defence. He thought it a question of economy, and, in this view, he should reply to some observations which had been made upon it.
He believed our naval defence would be much more efficaciously and speedily provided by means of the proposed establishment than if the bill was rejected. So far, indeed, it is a question of defence, but only collaterally so. The point of view in which this bill should be considered, is simply this: will it not effect with more speed and economy the marine defence now existing, as well as that contemplated? He himself had no doubt as to the fact. Indeed, he would ask the gentleman from North Carolina, whether, if he were about to erect a distillery on his place, he would employ his overseer to do it, who, though he might understand the business of his farm very well, knew nothing of building. He certainly would not; and if this would be bad policy in an individual, it would be equally so in a nation. Besides, the expense would be so trifling as only to amount (as had been stated) to one-third per cent., though traders were in the habit of paying five per cent. to have their business done.
But it was said, that if an office of this kind was established, it would soon create business. But the business is already created. We have, said he, already a marine of fifteen ships of war. This, he knew, was comparatively a small force, but in the establishment of which we shall yet expend two millions of dollars, and the support of which will amount at least to $700,000 or $800,000 annually. When the War Department was first established, the object of its care was not, he believed, of equal magnitude.
Mr. R. Williams was ready to acknowledge he did not believe it could ever be the interest of this country to go into the establishment of a large naval power, and therefore he should not be in favor of the present bill on that ground. Nor did he think there was any good reason for dividing the military and naval business, except there was more than could be attended to by the present establishment. But it was said the business was of a different nature, and therefore it ought to be in separate departments, as one man cannot be supposed to understand both concerns. That objection would apply to any of the other departments; and whenever this rule of dividing business shall be adopted, we shall get men of inferior talents to do it. When the Government was established, it was thought that a War Department would be equal to the military and naval concerns of this country. But it was said a navy was not then thought of; it was, however, doubtless thought of when the frigates were ordered to be built, and it was not then gone into. It was, however, said that much money had been lost for want of an officer of this kind. This was mere assertion, and it was by no means clear that the business would be done better with such an officer than without him.
But it was said, it was necessary to go into this measure for the sake of appearances. To whom are these appearances to be made? Not to our own people, but to European nations. The gentleman from Massachusetts says we ought to adopt their opinion upon this subject. He viewed a policy of this kind the most fatal of any other to this country. He believed that the less we had to do with European politics, and their mode of administration, the better. The only object in view, with that House, ought to be the interest of their own country. What, said he, is the situation of those countries which have gone into the establishment of large navies? They are involved in debt which they never can, and never will, pay.
Mr. J. Williams said, the only point in dispute was, whether a separate office should be established for the business of the Navy, or whether it should be put under the care of a superintendent in the War Department. He wished the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Otis) had spared his observations until he had heard those of the gentleman from Maryland, (Mr. S. Smith.) It had appeared to him that a superintendent in the War Department would have been sufficient, and he yet thought so. He did not think the business of the Navy was so great as to require a separate establishment. There was more business in the War Department in 1794 than at present, and nothing was then heard of a new department. He should not have opposed this measure if he had not been convinced that every measure taken to increase the Navy beyond its present establishment would have a bad effect on this country. It had been proposed last winter to purchase all the live-oak timber in the Southern States; afterwards a proposition was brought forward for the establishment of navy yards. Those measures had been defeated, and they were now called upon to establish a new department for this favorite object. He was not willing to do it. The gentleman from Massachusetts said there would only be a difference between making a new office, and continuing to do the business in the War Department, of the salary of the chief officer; but if he looked at the second clause of the bill, he would find himself mistaken, as there was in that provision for a principal clerk, and such other clerks as he shall judge necessary: so that he may have a clerk for every port in the Union, if he pleases. If he represented, as the gentleman from Massachusetts does, a commercial interest, he might be as favorable to a Navy as him; but as that was not the case, he was opposed to it. He gave his approbation to such appropriations as he thought necessary; and if, in this instance, he differed in opinion from the gentleman from Massachusetts, he should stand excused. He believed with that gentleman, that the commercial and agricultural interests were closely connected; they differed only as to the extent to which it was proper to carry our naval defence. He did not wish, however, at present, to reject the bill. He believed it might be amended, and he had no objection to the question being postponed for that purpose.
Mr. Livingston said, he was almost tempted to smile at the arrogant pretensions of some gentlemen in this House, in their treatment of others, at least their equals on this floor, whatever they might be out of doors, being equally with them Representatives of the people. They were told by the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Otis) that opposition was expected, was looked for, from certain gentlemen; that no argument was necessary on the occasion, because those members who were opposed to all measures of defence, would oppose this measure also; but that those who had originated the measure would carry it into effect. This simple declaration of a strength of party was also attended with a very handsome rebuke of one of his colleagues (Mr. J. Williams) for having dared to doubt the propriety of the measure before the committee. He was happy to find this rebuke had produced its effect, and that though his colleague was at first very decidedly against the bill, he was now disposed to doubt; and the effect of another rebuke, he supposed, would obtain his vote in favor of the new establishment. For his own part, neither the rebuke, nor the preliminary observations with which it was accompanied, had produced any effect upon him. He did very much doubt the propriety of the measure; for, although there was a great deal of business in the War Office, and the same person could not be supposed to be acquainted with military and naval affairs, if a ship-builder was to have the appointment, he could not think such a person fit to be one of the great council of the nation; and it must be recollected that the person who holds this office will become one of the counsellors of the President on all great concerns.
It was said that this establishment was necessary, in order to give an appearance of defence to Europe, as if the establishment of a Department of the Navy was to have the effect to do away all our past and to prevent future injuries. But our appearance to Europe was not all; the example of European countries was mentioned. All were said to have a Marine Department. The practice of Europe, Mr. L. said, had proved itself to be a bad one, as the navies of those countries had proved the ruin of them.
The yeas and nays were taken upon this bill going to its third reading, and decided in the affirmative—yeas 47, nays 41, as follows:
Yeas.—John Allen, Bailey Bartlett, James A. Bayard, Christopher G. Champlin, John Chapman, James Cochran, Joshua Coit, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, John Dennis, George Dent, Thomas Evans, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Jonathan Freeman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Robert Goodloe Harper, William Hindman, Hezekiah L. Hosmer, James H. Imlay, Samuel Lyman, James Machir, William Matthews, Daniel Morgan, Lewis R. Morris, Harrison G. Otis, Josiah Parker, Thomas Pinckney, John Read, John Rutledge, jun., James Schureman, Samuel Sewall, William Shepard, Thomas Sinnickson, Thompson J. Skinner, Nathaniel Smith, Samuel Smith, Peleg Sprague, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, Thomas Tillinghast, John E. Van Allen, and Peleg Wadsworth.