As to the case of 1796, under the British Treaty, the ground of opposition was this: It was claimed that the House had a right to decide upon a treaty, and to establish this point papers were called for. And on the decision of the question, on the granting or refusing the application, depended the establishment of the right of the House to participate in the treaty-making power. This right was denied by those who voted against the call. But in this case there was no difference as to the power of the House. The President in his Message had expressly stated that the cession would have weight in the deliberations of the Legislature. This, then, being a case in which it is proper to legislate, shall we go to work blindfold, without having all the information possessed by the Executive, that it is proper we should possess? What do we know respecting the cession? Though made for more than one year, we have no information, except that contained in the Message, which barely mentions the fact. For these reasons Mr. G. hoped the motion would not prevail, as its avowed object was not for a more full discussion, but for the purpose of going into a secret committee. If gentlemen mean to deny us the information we ask, let the denial be public; and if they grant it, there is no reason against their doing it publicly.
Mr. Randolph.—The gentleman from Connecticut tells us that this subject is referred to in the Message of the President, and that on it we are called by him to legislate. That subject has been referred to a Committee of the Whole; and yet, he says, it is improper to refer this resolution to the same committee. This may be logic; but I confess, if it is, I do not understand it. He says if the object of reference be for a more ample discussion, he will be in favor of it; but not so, if it be to send it to a secret committee. Does the gentleman mean to insinuate that the debates of this body are for the entertainment of the ladies who honor us with their presence; or that as soon as our doors are shut, our ears also are shut to all useful and necessary information? If the doors shall be closed, cannot we still agree to the resolution? However gentlemen may persist in the course they have taken, I shall not permit the warmth of their remarks, or that of my own feelings, to betray me into a debate on points which the House have determined shall be discussed with closed doors. For my own part, I am ready to declare that I have arguments to advance, that it is not my wish to advance with open doors.
Mr. Bacon said the resolution simply called for information respecting the cession of the province of Louisiana to the French. He did not see the end to be answered by committing it. Is there any doubt that we shall not stand in need of information when we come to discuss points connected with this subject? It appeared to him they would. He was therefore against the reference.
Mr. S. Smith.—The gentleman from Connecticut has candidly admitted that it is customary in such cases to make a reference; that he is not in favor of the reference being made to a committee with shut doors; but if the object were to obtain a free discussion, he would not object to it. He is told that a full and free discussion cannot be had without such a reference, and yet he persists in his hostility to the motion. He had been told so by the mover, and common sense would have told him so at first; yet he is for taking advantage of the mover, and for shutting out the arguments he has to urge. The gentleman is mistaken in his statement of the motives of the different sides of the House in the discussion on a call for papers, in 1796, when he represents one side as claiming a right to participate in the treaty-making power. He recollected it had been charged upon them; but they had denied it. We contended, said Mr. S., that when a treaty was formed, appropriating a large sum of money, we had a right to appropriate or not to appropriate the money; but we never assumed the right to say whether the treaty was concluded or not. Afterwards, gentlemen themselves, if he recollected right, moved a resolution that it was expedient to carry the treaty into effect, by which they did admit the right of the House. Mr. S. said he had no previous knowledge of what the gentleman from Virginia meant by his motion; he might perhaps wish to amend the resolution; but when he says he has arguments that he cannot urge without shut doors, he trusted that indulgence would be allowed him, or there would be a denial of justice.
Mr. Dana said, there was a magic of language, to those unaccustomed to parliamentary language, in the House resolving itself into a committee, and that committee returning itself back into the House, both composed of the same members, that made the proceedings of public bodies appear ridiculous. But there were substantial benefits derived from the observance of these forms. There was a fuller and freer discussion; every member spoke as often as he chose, and they enjoyed the Speaker's advice. There were, besides, two discussions and decisions, instead of one. He admitted, therefore, the propriety of such procedure in all cases where there was an important principle involved. But in this instance there was no important principle to discuss. There was an important principle involved in the famous question of 1796. It was therefore right to refer it to a Committee of the Whole. He did not know what principle was to be discussed on this reference, unless it was the want of information. This he most sensibly felt; and those gentlemen who also felt it, might, he thought, be indulged by those who possess all information on the subject. If any gentleman, however, will say that any important principle is involved in the resolution, he was ready to go into Committee of the Whole, though not with closed doors.
The question was then taken by yeas and nays on Mr. Randolph's motion, to refer the resolution of Mr. Griswold to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and carried—yeas 49, nays 39, as follows:
Yeas.—Willis Alston, John Archer, Theodorus Bailey, Richard Brent, Robert Brown, William Butler, Thomas Claiborne, Matthew Clay, John Clopton, John Condit, Richard Cutts, John Dawson, Lucas Elmendorph, Ebenezer Elmer, William Eustis, Edwin Gray, Andrew Gregg, John A. Hanna, Joseph Heister, William Hoge, James Holland, David Holmes, George Jackson, Michael Leib, David Meriwether, Samuel L. Mitchill, Thomas Moore, Anthony New, Thomas Newton, jr., Joseph H. Nicholson, John Randolph, jr., John Smilie, John Smith, (of New York,) John Smith, (of Virginia,) Josiah Smith, Samuel Smith, Henry Southard, Richard Stanford, Joseph Stanton, jr., John Stewart, John Taliaferro, jr., David Thomas, Philip R. Thompson, Abraham Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Isaac Van Horne, and Thomas Wynns.
Nays.—John Bacon, Phanuel Bishop, Thos. Boude, John Campbell, Manasseh Cutler, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, Thomas T. Davis, John Dennis, Wm. Dickson, Calvin Goddard, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Seth Hastings, William Helms, Joseph Hemphill, Archibald Henderson, Benjamin Huger, Samuel Hunt, Thomas Lowndes, Ebenezer Mattoon, Lewis R. Morris, Thomas Morris, James Mott, Elias Perkins, Thomas Plater, Nathan Read, John Rutledge, William Shepard, John Cotton Smith, John Stanley, Benjamin Tallmadge, Samuel Tenney, Samuel Thatcher, Thos. Tillinghast, George B. Upham, Peleg Wadsworth, Lemuel Williams, and Henry Woods.
On motion of Mr. Griswold, the House immediately went into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.
Mr. Randolph rose, and observed that he held in his hands certain resolutions connected with the Message of the President, relative to the late proceedings at New Orleans, the discussion of which had been ordered to be carried on with closed doors. He asked the decision of the question, whether, previously to offering his resolutions, the doors ought not to be closed? The resolutions he meant to submit grew out of the Message. If the House, however, insisted upon their being then read, he had no indisposition to read them.