Mr Sherman observed that the motion did not go far enough. It might be evaded by the creation of a new office, the translation to it of a person from another office, and the appointment of a member of the Legislature to the latter. A new Embassy might be established to a new Court, & an ambassador taken from another, in order to create a vacancy for a favorite member. He admitted that inconveniences lay on both sides. He hoped there wd be sufficient inducements to the public service without resorting to the prospect of desirable offices, and on the whole was rather agst the motion of Mr Madison.
Mr Gerry thought there was great weight in the objection of Mr Sherman. He added as another objection agst admitting the eligibility of members in any case that it would produce intrigues of ambitious men for displacing proper officers, in order to create vacancies for themselves.[105] In answer to Mr King he observed that although members, if disqualified themselves might still intrigue & cabal for their sons, brothers &c, yet as their own interests would be dearer to them, than those of their nearest connections, it might be expected they would go greater lengths to promote it.
[ [105] Yates gives Gerry's remarks:
"This amendment is of great weight, and its consequences ought to be well considered. At the beginning of the war, we possessed more than Roman virtue. It appears to me it is now the reverse. We have more land and stock-jobbers than any place on earth. It appears to me that we have constantly endeavored to keep distinct the three great branches of government; but if we agree to this motion, it must be destroyed by admitting the legislators to share in the executive, or to be too much influenced by the executive, in looking up to them for offices."—Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 160.
Mr Madison had been led to this motion as a middle ground between an eligibility in all cases, and an absolute disqualification. He admitted the probable abuses of an eligibility of the members, to offices particularly within the gift of the Legislature. He had witnessed the partiality of such bodies to their own members, as had been remarked of the Virginia Assembly by his colleague (Col. Mason). He appealed however to him, in turn to vouch another fact not less notorious in Virginia, that the backwardness of the best citizens to engage in the Legislative service gave but too great success to unfit characters. The question was not to be viewed on one side only. The advantages & disadvantages on both ought to be fairly compared. The objects to be aimed at were to fill all offices with the fittest characters, & to draw the wisest & most worthy citizens into the Legislative service. If on one hand, public bodies were partial to their own members; on the other they were as apt to be misled by taking characters on report, or the authority of patrons and dependents.
All who had been concerned in the appointment of strangers on those recommendations must be sensible of this truth. Nor wd the partialities of such Bodies be obviated by disqualifying their own members. Candidates for office would hover round the seat of Govt or be found among the residents there, and practise all the means of counting the favor of the members. A great proportion of the appointments made by the States were evidently brought about in this way. In the General Govt the evil must be still greater, the characters of distant states, being much less known throughout the U. States than those of the distant parts of the same State. The elections by Congress had generally turned on men living at the seat of the fedl Govt or in its neighbourhood.—As to the next object, the impulse to the Legislative service, was evinced by experience to be in general too feeble with those best qualified for it. This inconveniency wd also be more felt in the Natl Govt than in the State Govts as the Sacrifices reqd from the distant members, wd be much greater, and the pecuniary provisions, probably, more disproportionate. It wd therefore be impolitic to add fresh objections to the Legislative service by an absolute disqualification of its members. The point in question was whether this would be an objection with the most capable citizens. Arguing from experience he concluded that it would. The Legislature of Virga would probably have been without many of its best members, if in that situation, they had been ineligible to Congs to the Govt & other honorable offices of the State.
Mr Butler thought Characters fit for office wd never be unknown.
Col. Mason. If the members of the Legislature are disqualified, still the honors of the State will induce those who aspire to them to enter that service, as the field in which they can best display & improve their talents, & lay the train for their subsequent advancement.
Mr Jenifer remarked that in Maryland, the Senators chosen for five years, cd hold no other office & that this circumstance gained them the greatest confidence of the people.
On the question for agreeing to the motion of Mr Madison,