On Question on Mr Elsworth's Motion
N. H. no. Mass. no. Ct ay. N. J. no. Pa no. Del. no. Md no. Va no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.
A motion was then made to recommit the 2d clause which was negatived.
On the question to agree to the 1st part of the clause, namely
"To make laws for organizing arming & disciplining the Militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S."
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct no. N. J. ay. Pa ay. Del. ay. Md no. Va ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
Mr Madison moved to amend the next part of the clause so as to read "reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, under the rank of General officers."
Mr Sherman considered this as absolutely inadmissible. He said that if the people should be so far asleep as to allow the most influential officers of the militia to be appointed by the Genl Government, every man of discernment would rouse them by sounding the alarm to them.
Mr Gerry. Let us at once destroy the State Govts have an Executive for life or hereditary, and a proper Senate, and then there would be some consistency in giving full powers to the Genl Govt but as the States are not to be abolished, he wondered at the attempts that were made to give powers inconsistent with their existence. He warned the Convention agst pushing the experiment too far. Some people will support a plan of vigorous Government at every risk. Others of a more democratic cast will oppose it with equal determination, and a Civil war may be produced by the conflict.
Mr Madison. As the greatest danger is that of disunion of the States, it is necessary to guard agst it by sufficient powers to the Common govt and as the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good Militia.
On the Question to agree to Mr Madison's motion