The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 2

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

M^r Sherman, alluding to M^r Pinkney's enumeration of particular interests, as requiring a security ag^st abuse of the power; observed that the diversity was of itself a security, adding that to require more than a majority to decide a question was always embarrassing as had been experienced in cases requiring the votes of nine States in Congress.

M^r Pinkney replied that his enumeration meant the five minute interests. It still left the two great divisions of Northern & Southern interests.

M^r Gov^r Morris, opposed the object of the motion as highly injurious. Preferences to american ships will multiply them, till they can carry the Southern produce cheaper than it is now carried.–A navy was essential to security, particularly of the S. States, and can only be had by a navigation act encouraging american bottoms & seamen. In those points of view then alone, it is the interest of the S. States that navigation acts should be facilitated. Shipping he said was the worst & most precarious kind of property, and stood in need of public patronage.

M^r Williamson was in favor of making two thirds instead of a majority requisite, as more satisfactory to the Southern people. No useful measure he believed had been lost in Congress for want of nine votes. As to the weakness of the Southern States, he was not alarmed on that account. The sickliness of their climate for invaders would prevent their being made an object. He acknowledged that he did not think the motion requiring 2/3 necessary in itself, because if a majority of the Northern States should push their regulations too far the S. States would build ships for themselves: but he knew the Southern people were apprehensive on this subject and would be pleased with the precaution.

M^r Spaight was against the motion. The Southern States could at any time save themselves from oppression, by building ships for their own use.

M^r Butler differed from those who considered the rejection of the motion as no concession on the part of the S. States. He considered the interest of these and of the Eastern States, to be as different as the interests of Russia and Turkey. Being notwithstanding desirous of conciliating the affections of the East: States, he should vote ag^st requiring 2/3 instead of a majority.

Col: Mason. If the Gov^t is to be lasting, it must be founded in the confidence & affections of the people, and must be so constructed as to obtain these. The Majority will be governed by their interests. The Southern States are the minority in both Houses. Is it to be expected that they will deliver themselves bound hand & foot to the Eastern States, and enable them to exclaim, in the words of Cromwell on a certain occasion–"the lord hath delivered them into our hands."

M^r Wilson took notice of the several objections and remarked that if every peculiar interest was to be secured, unanimity ought to be required. The majority he said would be no more governed by interest than the minority. It was surely better to let the latter be bound hand and foot than the former. Great inconveniences had, he contended, been experienced in Congress from the article of confederation requiring nine votes in certain cases.

M^r Madison went into a pretty full view of the subject. He observed that the disadvantage to the S. States from a navigation act, lay chiefly in a temporary rise of freight, attended however with an increase of Southⁿ as well as Northern Shipping–with the emigration of Northern Seamen & merchants to the Southern States–& with a removal of the existing & injurious retaliations among the States on each other. The power of foreign nations to obstruct our retaliating measures on them by a corrupt influence would also be less if a majority sh^d be made competent than if 2/3 of each House sh^d be required to legislative acts in this case. An abuse of the power would be qualified with all these good effects. But he thought an abuse was rendered improbable by the provision of 2 branches–by the independence of the Senate, by the negative of the Executive, by the interest of Connecticut & N. Jersey which were agricultural, not commercial States; by the interior interest which was also agricultural in the most commercial States, by the accession of Western States which w^d be altogether agricultural. He added that the Southern States would derive an essential advantage in the general security afforded by the increase of our maritime strength. He stated the vulnerable situation of them all, and of Virginia in particular. The increase of the coasting trade, and of seamen, would also be favorable to the S. States, by increasing, the consumption of their produce. If the wealth of the Eastern should in a still greater proportion be augmented, that wealth w^d contribute the more to the public wants, and be otherwise a national benefit.

M^r Rutlidge was ag^st the motion of his colleague. It did not follow from a grant of the power to regulate trade, that it would be abused. At the worst a navigation act could bear hard a little while only on the S. States. As we are laying the foundation for a great empire, we ought to take a permanent view of the subject and not look at the present moment only. He reminded the House of the necessity of securing the West India trade to this country. That was the great object, and a navigation act was necessary for obtaining it.