The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 2

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

On the question on the proposition of M^r Madison & M^r Hamilton as amended

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry moved to reconsider Art: XXI and XXII. from the latter of which "for the approbation of Cong^s" had been struck out. He objected to proceeding to change the Government without the approbation of Congress, as being improper and giving just umbrage to that body: He repeated his objections also to an annulment of the confederation with so little scruple or formality.

M^r Hamilton concurred with M^r Gerry as to the indecorum of not requiring the approbation of Congress. He considered this as a necessary ingredient in the transaction. He thought it wrong also to allow nine States as provided by Art XXI. to institute a new Government on the ruins of the existing one. He w^d propose as a better modification of the two articles (XXI & XXII) that the plan should be sent to Congress in order that the same if approved by them, may be communicated to the State Legislatures, to the end that they may refer it to State conventions; each Legislature declaring that if the Convention of the State should think the plan ought to take effect among nine ratifying States, the same sh^d take effect accordingly.

M^r Gorham. Some States will say that nine States shall be sufficient to establish the plan, others will require unanimity for the purpose. And the different and conditional ratifications will defeat the plan altogether.

M^r Hamilton. No Convention convinced of the necessity of the plan will refuse to give it effect on the adoption by nine States. He thought this mode less exceptionable than the one proposed in the article, while it would attain the same end.

M^r Fitzimmons remarked that the words "for their approbation" had been struck out in order to save Congress from the necessity of an Act inconsistent with the Articles of Confederation under which they held their authority.

M^r Randolph declared, if no change should be made in this part of the plan, he should be obliged to dissent from the whole of it. He had from the beginning he said been convinced that radical changes in the system of the Union were necessary. Under this conviction he had brought forward a set of republican propositions as the basis and outline of a reform. These Republican propositions had however, much to his regret, been widely, and, in his opinion, irreconcileably departed from. In this state of things it was his idea and he accordingly meant to propose, that the State Conventions sh^d be at liberty to offer amendments to the plan; and that these should be submitted to a second General Convention, with full power to settle the Constitution finally. He did not expect to succeed in this proposition, but the discharge of his duty in making the attempt, would give quiet to his own mind.

M^r Wilson was against a reconsideration for any of the purposes which had been mentioned.

M^r King thought it would be more respectful to Congress to submit the plan generally to them; than in such a form as expressly and necessarily to require their approbation or disapprobation. The assent of nine States he considered as sufficient; and that it was more proper to make this a part of the Constitution itself, than to provide for it by a supplemental or distinct recommendation.