Miss Kroeger: Mrs. Fairchild was undecided, saying she was inclined to the exact measurement in centimeters; Miss Browne and Mr. Cutter voted for the old letter symbol; so there was no majority of the committee. Mr. Hopkins's vote was for the exact size. It was left with the Publishing Board to decide.
Mr. Hanson: The report is for the figure, but with a strong predilection of the members who signed it towards exact measurement, providing that should be adopted by the Publishing Board. Three of us argued in favor of the fold symbol. There were too main reasons argued, one that the great majority of readers in this country were familiar with the figure; the 4to, 8vo and 12mo gave them the size of the book; and that the majority of libraries used that rather than the letter. The other was in favor of uniformity. We found that the fold symbol as a measure of height, not in the old sense, was advocated by the Prussian, the Italian and the French university libraries and others. But if the Publishing Board should decide to adopt size measurement in centimeters I do not believe there is anyone of the committee who will insist very strongly on the retention of the one or the other.
Mr. Harris: I think that bibliographically it is a mistake to take the old fold symbol and apply it to size notation. It is not size—it represents form notation. It is much simpler to give size in inches or in centimeters, whichever you prefer, rather than to use the symbol which denotes fold.
L. P. Lane: It was said that the fold symbol was now almost never used to indicate the fold. In the Boston Public Library we use it to indicate the fold for foreign books and old books. We also use the same symbol in the case of American books to indicate size. There is considerable dissatisfaction with the practice and some of the cataloging staff would prefer to give the size in inches. How would that apply to books not in the condition in which they were published? Also I should like to ask whether it might not be possible where the fold is easily distinguished, to give both size and fold.
Mr. Hanson: That is really the practice of the Prussian university libraries.
Miss Browne: My thesis for defending the size letter is that 25 years ago the A. L. A. thrashed this matter all over and decided on the size symbol. Mr. Bowker has used that letter symbol from that time on. Miss Kroeger found a very large proportion of the libraries using the letter symbol; library classes are teaching the letter symbol. My chief objection to the fold symbol is that we are making one sign serve two uses, which I think is always bad.
Mr. Josephson: If the Library Association 25 years ago decided to use one symbol or another symbol, that is no reason why we should do so now. The objection to using the fold symbol to denote size is, among other things, as Mr. Lane suggested, that you need it in case of old books to tell the fold. The only rational designation of size is by centimeters, or inches, if you prefer. There is of course one difficulty in using accurate measurement in centimeters, if you have a book that has been bound and cut down. But that can be overcome, I think, by letting the measurement mean letterpress and nothing else. In ordinary cases you know about how wide a margin is if you know the side of the letterpress; it is always a certain proportion. You don't need the size to tell on what shelf the book is put, because that is given by the call number. So in order to find a book you don't need the size notation; you need it to see what size the page is. It is a [purely bibliographical notation].
[Mr. Hanson here read rule for size notation for books "notable for age or rarity.">[
Mr. Bowker: In the days of our youth, in fact almost as soon as we were born, this Association, as Miss Browne has indicated, adopted the letter symbol; and it seems to me that the reasons that operated for the choice of the letter symbol are stronger now than they were then, because the symbol has in the meantime come into quite general, if not universal use. The Association at that time had a phrase to indicate size. The objections to the old fold symbol still remain, and I think one very strong one has been stated. It is not only that the numerical system of 8vo, 12mo, etc., has ceased to mean what it originally meant and is confused with measurement size, but that it is used in England and America with utterly different meanings; and that difference continues. That is to say, the English use crown octavo and post octavo and two or three names for 12mo, in such a way as to cross our use of the word 8vo and 12mo and make a double confusion. I feel very strongly, for one, that the method of breaking over from the octavo and duodecimo, etc., the figure designation, into a definite and accurate letter designation was a very ingenious and very useful move. It is difficult to get general adoption of a modification of that sort, but the adoption has been quite general, and to me it would seem a very great retrogression to go back to the old figure symbol; we had better adhere to the A. L. A. notation of 25 years ago and custom since, and give a symbol which is in no sense confusing or misleading, following that, if you please, with the actual size measurement in centimeters.
Mr. Roden: I understand, of course, that we cannot legislate upon the subject, and possibly our discussion will not influence the legislature. At the same time, as a representative of a popular library in the middle west, I cannot help but regard with apprehension the small but insidious innovations which these rules seem to display. Mr. Josephson has said measurement is a bibliographical detail; in popular libraries it is a gratuitous detail. It could very well, as the chairman suggests, be placed at the end. In the public I am dealing with I should say the old fold symbol is most commonly used and means most. It occurs to me that a combination of fold and letter symbols might be used. I suggest this as a little concession to the popular library, and it is the first I have heard this afternoon.