DR. KUBUSCHOK: In regard to the witnesses I should like to say the following: Witness Number 1, Baron Lersner—the Tribunal granted only an interrogatory at first. The prosecutor has today agreed to have the witness called before this Tribunal. I also ask very urgently that this witness be questioned before the Tribunal.
The witness was the president of the German peace delegation at Versailles. He is a very well known German diplomat, who since 1932 has worked very closely with the Defendant Von Papen. A man like Lersner had, of course, a particularly fine understanding for every policy of aggression. Therefore, it is very important that this co-worker of the Defendant Von Papen be heard and be allowed to tell us how he has observed the defendant in his activities up to 1944. It is particularly important that Lersner, at the instigation of Defendant Von Papen, could go to Turkey.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, Sir David agreed, I think, with reference to Number 1.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes, if the Tribunal also agrees, then the matter is taken care of.
The second witness, Tschirschky—Tschirschky was the private secretary of the defendant from 1933 to 1935, the first private secretary during the time that the defendant was Vice Chancellor. He is a man who was himself persecuted by the Gestapo and had to go into exile in 1935, where he still is. He is a man who can give exhaustive information on the whole period from 1933 to 1935 in regard to the external activity of the defendant and his personal attitude.
I believe that, especially for the time from the beginning of 1933, we shall not get a thorough picture if we do not hear this closest co-worker of the defendant personally. The other witnesses concern mostly different periods. Only in some cases do they overlap with the activity of this witness.
Number 5, Kroll. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Supposing that the Tribunal thought it right to grant you Number 2 as an oral witness, would it not be possible to dispense with one of 3 or 4 and have interrogatories from one of them and call the other one? They deal with somewhat the same period.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: We definitely need 3 for the following reasons:
Witness Kageneck was present when Hitler entrusted Papen with the Austrian mission. This is a very important point, since the Prosecution alleges that he was entrusted with this mission for those purposes of which he was accused. The witness will testify that Papen accepted the mission only after a clear guarantee concerning the purpose of the mission. Furthermore, Count Kageneck was also in Vienna after 1935, that is to say, from 1935 until the Anschluss, and for this period we should not have any other witness. Kageneck can also confirm a very important point, that is, that he was entrusted with taking diplomatic documents to Switzerland and safeguarding them there, since from these documents the documentary proof for the activity of the defendant in Vienna could be deduced. Therefore, in my opinion, the witness Kageneck also cannot be dispensed with.