DR. KUBUSCHOK: Number 11, Baroness De Nothomb—in this case I asked for an interrogatory or for permission to submit an affidavit. The subject of the evidence is:
During the years 1940 to 1944 the defendant continuously supported the witness in her intervention on behalf of persecuted members of the French resistance movement. I want thereby to prove that the Defendant Von Papen shows again, in this case, that he was greatly interested in a peaceful shaping of German-French relations, and that during the war he always had in mind the postwar time, when the poison should be removed from these relations. The intervention on the part of the defendant was also a result of general humanitarian considerations. This is not without considerable importance in connection with the charge of conspiratorial activity.
Number 12, Archbishop Gröber—the Indictment asserts that the Defendant Von Papen used his position as a prominent German Catholic for a dirty business of deception, and that the conclusion of the Concordat, as such, was effected in the course of a policy directed against the Church; that the conclusion of the Concordat was not intended seriously, as one could see from the later violations of the Concordat. Archbishop Gröber was, at the time of negotiations concerning the Concordat, at the Holy See. He was present during all the negotiations. He knows that the initiative for starting negotiations came from Von Papen himself, who did not get Hitler’s approval until later. He knows that the draft which had been made by Von Papen for the Concordat was strongly disapproved by Hitler and that Papen was able to advance this draft only after long struggles. The witness knows the Defendant Von Papen very well. He also knows from what inner stand toward the Catholic question the defendant approached the matter of the conclusion of the Concordat. As an influential dignitary of the Church he can also judge the consequences of the Concordat. He is in a position to judge that the contents of the Concordat at a later time also were still a protection for Church interests; and from his knowledge of the personal relations of the defendant and all the relations of the Church in Germany, he can testify as to whether the defendant had anything at all to do with the violations of the Concordat.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, does witness Number 2 deal with the same subject? Where you say in your discussion of the subject of the evidence, that witness Number 2 accompanied the defendant to Rome to conclude the Concordat—can he testify that against Hitler’s strong opposition he succeeded, at the last minute, in concluding the Concordat? At that time was the witness present at all the speeches?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: The witness Tschirschky was introduced into the negotiations concerning the Concordat by the defendant. It is very important, in my opinion, to examine also a witness who was present at the negotiations as representing the other side. In particular, this witness, Archbishop Gröber, could also express an opinion in regard to the later period, the violations of the Concordat. He can judge the entire situation from the point of the Church better than can the private secretary Tschirschky. He can also give an essentially more reliable picture of Von Papen’s personality, which in this matter is very closely connected with his political activity. I have been very modest in my requests; but I should like to ask urgently, in this case, that an interrogatory or an affidavit by Archbishop Gröber be granted, for it is indeed clear that the accusation that a prominent German Catholic uses his position for evil purposes of deception is a very serious one, and the defendant also is very greatly interested in having this question clarified, within the framework of the Indictment and also beyond that.
Witness Number 13—an affidavit of Herr Von Beaulieu, who shall testify that the defendant, in his position as president of a very large and prominent German organization, intervened until the very end for the non-Aryan members, as this term was used at that time. Everything which is of importance in judging the Papen case lies, for the most part, in the sphere of the subjective. We will see very few actual actions in the Papen case. The accusations are, for the most part, based on the fact that he was present. It is, therefore, relatively difficult to bring proof and therefore the counterevidence must to a large extent be subjective in nature. To judge a person’s character in its entirety, it is not unimportant to know what, for instance, his attitude was in 1938 toward the question of the treatment of Jews, for, if Papen here definitely deviated from a general line followed by Hitler and the Nazis, one will certainly be able to draw a conclusion as to whether he was really the faithful follower of Hitler which the Indictment tries to picture him.
Witness Number 14—I received the statement today. I have not yet had time to look through it. I shall submit either the statement or an affidavit which I shall try to get.
Number 15—a questioning of His Majesty King Gustav of Sweden, to be conducted in every way possible. This is a very important question. It touches a major point of the Defense, namely, in how far it was possible for a person not entangled in the ideas of Nazism to collaborate to a certain extent. To what extent could he hope, by his personal activity, to change things or at least to modify them? If, on the basis of the evidence submitted, we prove that Von Papen not only exhausted his means to serve this end within Germany, but also, beyond this, used his foreign political connections for this purpose, then this should, I believe, round out the picture of the character of the defendant in an important way. This strong activity in the interest of peace is such that, in my opinion, simply on the basis of such activities, the absolute falsehood and untenability of that charge of the Indictment that the defendant at any time could have approved of the aims of an aggressive policy within the framework of a conspiracy becomes apparent.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the documents, Numbers 1 to 8, the Prosecution asks Dr. Kubuschok to submit the extracts, and then we can consider the relevancy at that time. I think that Dr. Kubuschok has Number 9.
DR. KUBUSCHOK: I have in my possession only the photostat which I received from the Prosecution.