Q. Severe pain?
A. As far as I know, the pain was very severe.
EXTRACT FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT GEBHARDT[[76]]
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Dr. Seidl: The next document which I intend to submit to the witness is NO-409 which has been submitted by the prosecution as Exhibit 249. It is a letter from Reich Physician SS Dr. Grawitz to the Reich Leader SS Himmler dated 29 August 1942. It refers to the biochemical treatment of sepsis. This document came to your knowledge, didn’t it? And this is shown by a comment you wrote: “Seen at Ravensbrueck on 3 September 1942. (Signed) Karl Gebhardt.” Did you know beforehand about the performance of these experiments and did you agree with them?
Defendant Gebhardt: I did not have any previous knowledge of these experiments, and with regard to this document may I state somewhat more in detail what it shows? This is a letter to Himmler, dated the end of August, and signed by Grawitz. It was never mentioned that I was to receive this letter or that this letter was to be routed through me. It does not have any note from me to the effect that I countersigned it, or was in agreement with it, in this form. It was also not discussed in Berlin or Hohenlychen or in the headquarters, but in Ravensbrueck, and, in particular, on 3 September when this discussion took place between Grawitz and me, because of the second group of our sulfanilamide experiments. Grawitz, who at that time came in order to show us that he was not in agreement, as far as I can recall, brought this letter and this description along from Dachau. We then discussed it in detail, because on my part there were many reasons for raising the sharpest protest against it. And, may I point out how much can be seen from this document about how Grawitz planned to publish experiments or to describe them, in contrast to my procedure at the time. Under point (1) it states, “SS Hospital, Dachau” and it actually looks in general as though this were a hospital report. And most of the case histories also speak in favor of that, too. For example, the reference on page 3 to a joint plastic, certainly is a big operation which can only be performed in a hospital. On the following page there is “artificially induced sepsis.” On the second page, “the cases of sepsis were mainly artificially induced.” Then on the other side it is stated that in the fatalities there is no mention of the 8 cases of sepsis that were artificially induced, but of 10. I proved to Grawitz, especially on this page, that the description he wanted to make of a camouflaged mixture of experiments and clinical results might later on be read by somebody superficially, and he would come to the word “artificially induced” and would not be able to decide. Then there was a fundamental point with regard to all persons concerned. This was the impracticability of performing an experiment in this establishment. Then on page 3 it states that the drugs were to be taken every five minutes, even at night. At the time I didn’t even think of giving the report to Grawitz, after I had found out about it by chance. I wrote “read” in the margin and drew a logical conclusion with regard to Himmler and Grawitz. In this connection I not only concluded Grawitz’ influence on our experiments, but I also asked Himmler how these biochemical experiments were brought about. I request permission of the Tribunal to permit me here to describe what Himmler thought with regard to such experiments, and to show, therefore, how impossible it was in certain cases, in spite of obtaining knowledge, to effect any change. For a person who has studied school medicine it is impossible to believe that through the homeopathic administration of sulphur and phosphorus, surgical case histories, as well as internal case histories, and metabolistic diseases can be influenced. However, in medicine one can, of course, take a completely different point of view, and that is the basic conception of biochemistry up to homeopathy, to which Himmler completely adhered. And here in two sentences we have described how all the elements which appear in nature also have traces in the human body. Now, if one small trace of an element is lacking, then the human being is susceptible to and suffering from some disease or other. The therapy and method of treatment by the biochemist is the exact contrast of medicine as practiced by a person who has studied it at school. They make test experiments on human beings and discover what element is lacking in that human being, and no matter from what disease he is suffering, the patient is treated with minimum doses of the element which he lacks. Never in the world has it been possible for a typical school practitioner and a biochemist to agree, because they want to treat the human being completely in contrast to each other. From this example you can see now that when I went to Himmler and said that it was madness for not only an experiment to be performed on out-patients, but that also simultaneously ten or twelve different cases should be treated with the same medicine, when I told Himmler this, he said that he had one of the most experienced biochemists, and a layman, Herr Laue with him, and that he was absolutely convinced that this method of treatment was correct. Himmler always attempted to discover old-fashioned popular remedies. In spite of my objection and in spite of my proof that my own surgical patients would suffer from it, these experiments were performed until I succeeded in bringing this Dr. Laue and Dr. Kieselwecker from Marburg (who enjoyed Himmler’s complete confidence on this question) to Hohenlychen. There we performed a similar experiment together on my patients in order to show that this method of treatment was impossible. But even in this way I was not able to achieve my purpose with Himmler, because afterwards it was said we had not applied the drugs properly, and so on. Therefore, one can conclude from this that it was not the case that Himmler adhered to one certain medical concept, and if one accidentally heard of an experiment, one could convince him. Himmler maintained a hostile attitude toward school medicine, and from nature cures to biochemistry he was accessible to every thought, and when Laue convinced him of the fact that this drug was of decisive importance, then the experiment was performed. May I state in this connection, that the knowledge of this document had the following three results with me: that Grawitz, who was ready to make compromises as is shown here, did not allow anyone to tell him anything at all about the sulfanilamide question; that I gave Himmler clear knowledge of the false idea without being able to convince him because of his favorable attitude toward biochemistry; and that the experiment would perhaps be discontinued, mainly on account of subsequent examinations at Hohenlychen. I shall give evidence of this as soon as I receive the appropriate testimony of witnesses.