Q. This Gauleiter Greiser, who was a Gauleiter in a district which now belongs to Poland, sent a letter on May 1st to the Reich Leader SS suggesting that Poles suffering from tuberculosis in the Wartheland should be liquidated if the existence of open tuberculosis and the incurability of the patients were established by official doctors. In this connection Greiser writes and (this is what I want to ask you about) I quote, “The increasing dangers were also recognized and appreciated by Deputy Reich Leader of Public Health, Dr. Blome, as well as by the Leader of your X-ray unit, SS Standartenfuehrer, Dr. Hohlfelder.” That is the quotation. What can you tell us today about these apparently early discussions between you and Gauleiter Greiser?
A. I talked to Gauleiter Greiser about three times, concerning the combating of tuberculosis in Wartheland, certainly once in the presence of Professor Hohlfelder. These discussions go back to the year 1941. I can recall Greiser once saying that the simplest thing would be to treat the incurable tubercular Poles exactly like the insane by means of euthanasia. I pointed out that the comparison was not valid. The Poles, I also said, were not German citizens. The plan which Greiser was considering was a radical solution but I could not agree to it. When sometime later I learned of the so-called Fuehrer order, according to which the euthanasia action was stopped and prohibited, I considered this matter and Greiser’s statement as settled. Then the year 1942 was filled with purely organizational preparation for the tuberculosis action. For example, all the population had to be registered in card index files, Germans as well as Poles; preparations had to be made for a series of X-ray examinations. Then these examinations had to be evaluated, and so on. The latter was a matter for the state health offices, that is the National Socialist welfare organization, and the X-ray unit which was to carry out the technical side of these examinations. From time to time I had a report from Professor Hohlfelder about the preparations. Only when all prerequisites were fulfilled, did I give my approval for such large scale action. The execution of this action was dependent upon my personal approval. I only took action in this tuberculosis question in the Warthegau when I received alarming reports about an alleged liquidation order from Himmler. I learned of it because at the beginning of November Sturmbannfuehrer Perwitschky came to my office in Berlin and reported to me that Greiser had an order from Himmler to the effect that incurably sick cases of tuberculosis found during the planned examinations in the Wartheland were to be liquidated. Perwitschky belonged to the X-ray unit and was business manager for the society combating tuberculosis. Then I immediately reached an agreement with Perwitschky that I would meet Professor Hohlfelder at Poznan to discuss the matter and to prevent Himmler’s and Greiser’s plans from being carried out. I went to Poznan and discussed the matter with Hohlfelder. We were both greatly astonished at this order from Himmler. We agreed that this order must not be carried out, and that we as German doctors could not lend our aid to such an action. We discussed the manner in which this Himmler-Greiser plan could be prevented. We decided that I should go to Greiser first of all. I telephoned Greiser from this conference and said that it was very important that I should speak to him. Then I talked to him on the same day, or on the next day. When I asked Greiser whether Himmler’s orders for liquidating were correct, he said “Yes.” He said he had the order in his hands. I said that I was willing to prevent this plan in any case and explained why. I said that in the first place as a doctor I could not participate in this and, in the second place, I pointed out the political danger connected with such a crime.
Then Greiser agreed that I should write a letter for him which he would pass on to Himmler for a decision. As for Greiser’s letter to Himmler of May 1942 (NO-246, Pros. Ex. 196) which you just mentioned, Dr. Sauter, I learned of it for the first time from files here, and Himmler’s opinion concerning my letter of November 1942 I learned of here for the first time too. Up to that time I did not know about Himmler’s letter to Greiser. In the letter of May 1942, from Greiser to Himmler, Greiser writes, I quote, “that Hohlfelder and Blome recognized the ever-increasing risks and appreciated them.” But he does not say that Hohlfelder and I approved liquidation. The letter does not say that. My basic opinion on the problem is the following: Let us suppose that we in Germany had a valid law for the liquidation of incurably sick persons. Assuming that such a law did exist, it would, of course, be out of the question to apply it to non-Germans. Application in this case would be a crime, especially during war. Germany had occupied foreign territory and, as an occupying power, had to observe international law in the treatment given to the occupied territories. As for the problem of tuberculosis, I had dealt with it for some time, especially since 1935 when I had incorporated the tuberculosis question into the post-graduate medical training. In 1937 Professor Janker, Bonn, a well-known X-ray specialist, called upon me for aid in developing a new procedure which, with a minimum of cost, would make it possible to examine large groups of the population. This was the so-called X-ray screen photography which was developed. I shall give you a brief explanation of this. Previously for an X-ray picture of the lungs, a film had been needed of 24 by 30 centimeters. This new procedure required a film of about only 4 by 4 centimeters. That is, the so-called Leica size. The pictures were taken with a Leica. The X-ray screen was photographed. The successful development of this procedure meant that for an X-ray photograph, in place of the price of from twelve to thirteen marks, which the social insurance had paid, it now could be produced for about ten pfennigs: that is, less than one percent.
The further value of the development of this process was that one would no longer need several minutes for an X-ray photograph, but this procedure was developed to such an extent that we could take two hundred to three hundred pictures per minute. I developed this screen picture process together with Janker until we reached the results which I have just described. At the X-ray Congress in May 1938 in Munich I made this process public and I stated that with its aid one could begin a large-scale fight against tuberculosis. Only a few people believed my words at the time, and some smiled pityingly. After this congress, Professor Hohlfelder, who was later commander of the X-ray unit, came to me, and working with X-ray science, the optical industry, the film industry, X-ray industry, screen industry, etc., we developed the process during the course of that same year to such an extent that in a short time we were able to X-ray practically every inhabitant in the whole province of Mecklenburg. The procedure was then gradually developed until we could easily have X-rayed ten million or more in Germany per year. Then, during the war, at my instigation, in 1939 and 1940, we X-rayed the population of the whole province of Westphalia; then in 1941, the whole province of Wuerttemberg, including Hohenzollern. Now there was the plan to X-ray the people of Wartheland. Gauleiter Greiser had approached me, because approval had to be obtained from me, and I gave such approval only if all prerequisites were given, so that the cases which were discovered could be given some medical and clinical attention. It had been our experience in these examinations that one percent new tuberculosis cases were discovered which had hitherto been completely undetected. For the Warthegau alone, with a Polish population of four and one-half millions, that would have meant forty-five thousand new cases of tuberculosis, not counting the ten thousand from among the one million German population. I had withheld my approval for such actions because at that time, with the development of this invention, a plan of irresponsible X-raying was being carried out by various Gauleiters and by large industries. Everyone wanted to take up the battle against tuberculosis but that would have been a disaster unless there had been some check. When whole groups of population were X-rayed, there had to be the necessary preparation of medical supplies from the beginning, otherwise there would have been a catastrophe. Through this action and through these many new cases of tuberculosis which were discovered, I consciously put the state in a difficult situation. I forced the state to issue a new law for the fight against tuberculosis. This law which was issued was the Tuberculosis Aid Law. This law formed the basis for the lung examination of the population of the Wartheland which was actually carried out in 1943-1944. This law, it can be proved, was not only of benefit to the German population in the Warthegau, but also to the Polish population, as is clearly seen from the affidavit of Regierungsdirektor Dr. Gundermann. (Blome 1, Blome Ex. 8.) Dr. Gundermann was the chief medical officer of the Wartheland; that is, he had the main responsibility for the fight against tuberculosis in this Gau.
Q. Dr. Blome, before we go into the letter of 18 November 1942, I should like to return to the spring of 1942. (NO-250, Pros. Ex. 203.) We just heard of a letter from Gauleiter Greiser dated May 1942, in which he suggests that Poles suffering from tuberculosis should be liquidated. He writes “that the ever-increasing risks were also recognized and appreciated by the Deputy of the Reich Leader for Public Health, Professor Dr. Blome.”
You said that Greiser does not mention that you approved the plan for the liquidation of the Poles. I would be interested to know what your attitude was at that time, in the spring of 1942, towards this plan. Did you approve of the plan to liquidate tubercular Poles? Did you reject it? What did you say about it?
A. In the spring of 1942 I expressed no opinion at all in respect to this plan. The discussions with Greiser, as I said, were in the year 1941, at the time when the euthanasia action was still in operation. In 1942 I did not talk to Greiser about such a plan at all. I did not know that Greiser intended to write this letter in May 1942 to Himmler, or that he did actually write it. I heard about it only here and after Greiser had made his statements in connection with the euthanasia action. But the euthanasia action had been stopped by Hitler’s order, and of course I assumed that such ideas on the part of Greiser were settled too. I did not approve of his ideas, as I said before.
Q. Then, if I understand you correctly, you did not deal with this matter in the fall of 1942 when this Perwitschky brought you alarming news?
A. Yes. That is right.
Q. Can you tell us why Gauleiter Greiser discussed this tuberculosis problem with you particularly?