[199] “Had I,” continued Mr. Lindsay, “remained a silent spectator at this meeting as I intended, I should have been an assenting party to a resolution which asks us to reverse our policy. (‘No, no!’) But such would have been the case, for the resolution says, ‘that the principal cause of the depression has been the impolicy of the existing system of maritime commerce.’ I hold that the establishment of a Free-trade policy has nothing whatever to do with the existing depression in the shipping interest (cries of ‘Oh, oh!’ and great disapprobation), and therefore I come forward and offer my dissent. This resolution, further, asks us to confirm a memorial which the Shipowners’ Society of London, this time last year, addressed to her Majesty. I, for one, cannot be a consenting party to that resolution or memorial, because I believe that the opinions therein expressed are fallacious, and I shall endeavour to show you how. What is the prayer of that memorial? It urgently entreats, indeed implores her Majesty to issue an Order in Council against those nations which have not reciprocated with us. (‘Bravo!’ and cheers.) I am in favour of reciprocity—it is Free-trade in its most extended sense—but I ask you to look at the difference between reciprocity and the enforcement of reciprocity by the Legislature. Enforced reciprocity, as prayed for by you in this memorial, is Protection in its worst and most pernicious form. (Cries of ‘Shame,’ and hisses.) It is a renewal of the old war of tariffs; therefore, it is the war of Protection. (Great uproar.) We must not retrograde, our course is onward.” (Hisses and uproar.)
Mr. G. F. Young: I rise to order. (Cheers, and a few cries of “No, no!”) Sir, I will not so far depart from the usages of debate as to introduce a speech on rising to order, but will submit that the course of discussion is irregular and unfair. I have challenged the hon. member to discuss this particular point with me publicly. He has declined my challenge. (Great cheering.)
The Chairman: I think that my friend Mr. Young in calling my hon. friend Mr. Lindsay to order has rather himself travelled a little out of order. (“Hear, hear!” and a laugh.) I cannot think that Mr. Lindsay is out of order; but it will rest with the meeting to decide whether or not they will hear Mr. Lindsay in continuation. (“Hear, hear!” and disapprobation.)
Mr. Lindsay: Gentlemen, remember that we are in the city of London, and that the eyes of England are upon us. We are assembled to discuss a question of deep interest to its maritime interests, viz., what is the best course for the nation to pursue in the first place.
Mr. Young: No, no; to inquire what should be done. (“Hear, hear!”)
Mr. Lindsay: Well, then, I suppose it is to discuss this, that we have come here. Now, I say, we have to inquire what is the best policy to be pursued for the nation at large (cheers); and, secondly, for ourselves as shipowners. (Cheers.) The question before us is this, whether the reversal of our Free-trade policy will be best for the interest of the country at large. (“Hear, hear!” hisses and confusion.)
Mr. G. F. Young: The Legislature will inquire into that. (“Hear, hear!”)
Mr. Lindsay: I say this resolution goes to the root of Free-trade, and confirms the memorial sent by you last year to the Queen. (Cheers.) Now, then, in reply to that memorial—and bear in mind that you received that reply from a Protectionist Government, my Lord Derby’s through whom you made this appeal. (“Hear,” cheers, hisses, and cries of “Question, question!”) I am speaking to the question. Now, the answer given to your memorial by the Board of Trade clearly and distinctly proved that under a Free-trade policy the British shipping had increased in a far greater ratio than it ever did under a Protectionist policy. (“Hear, hear!” and a cry, “Prove it!”) It has been proved, and let those deny it who can, that from 1842 to 1849 British shipping built and registered during the period of reciprocity increased 843,000 tons; but from 1850 to 1857 it had increased 1,670,000 tons, or more than double under Free-trade what it did under Protection. (Cries of “Bosh!”) It has been proved further, that the entries inwards and clearances outwards—(confusion, “Hear, hear!” and “No!”) It does not suit, you to hear the truth—you Protectionist shipowners! (Confusion.) I say it has been proved that the entries and clearances of British shipping have increased (cries of “Hear!” “No!” “Turn him out!”) in a ratio equally as great as the tonnage built and registered. (The hon. gentleman was here met by a storm of indignant and discordant cries, among which were heard: “Go to Sunderland!” “Rubbish!” “Bosh!” “Sit down!”) When order was restored the hon. member resumed as follows:—Mr. Bramley-Moore has referred to what he calls the advantages which Spain and France have gained by their protective system. (Uproar.) It is quite true that in the five years between 1853 and 1857 inclusive, no less than 600,000 tons of Spanish shipping entered and cleared our ports; but, on the other hand, it is equally true that, during the same period, no less than 1,700,000 tons of British shipping entered and cleared from Spanish ports. (“Hear, hear!”) What does Spain, therefore, gain by her system of protection? (Confusion, and a voice, “We can see all that in the ‘Times.’”) It is true that 3,900,000 tons of French shipping cleared for the ports of England during a similar period; but it is no less true that 10,000,000 tons of British shipping entered and cleared from the French ports. (“Hear, hear!” and “Question!”) I could go on with many more facts to prove my case. I can prove to you by undeniable facts that the British shipping interest, however much it may be distressed at the present time, has been a gainer by the policy of Free-trade (shouts of disapprobation), and that it is not for your interest as Shipowners to reverse that policy. (Uproar.) You, no doubt, wish to confine your trade to your own possessions (“No, no!”), but what, I ask, would England be if it were not for the vast magnitude of her trade with foreign countries? (Cries of “Oh, oh!” “Hear, hear!” and “No, no!”) On referring to the Customs’ entries and clearances, it will be found that out of the 5,000,000 tons of British shipping annually so entered, 2,000,000 came from our own colonies and dependencies, but that no less than 3,000,000 of British shipping are entered from foreign countries (“Hear, hear!” and confusion), thus proving that our trade with foreign countries is much more valuable to us than the trade with our own possessions (cries of “Question!”); and thus proving, further, that our trade with foreign countries is of greater advantage, even to the British Shipowner, than our trade with our own colonies and dependencies. (“Question, question!”) If instead of the resolution proposed you adopted such a resolution as I have sketched out since I have been in the room it would have been better for your interest. (Uproar, and cries of “Sit down!”) You may not think it for your interest, but the day will come when you will find it for your interest. (Disapprobation.) If instead of looking after the shadow, you would follow and grasp at the substance it would be better for you. (Uproar.) Have any of you looked at the existing burdens on British shipping? I have done so; but I will not occupy the time of the meeting by going into details. (Great cheering.) I must, however, tell you that these burdens are a serious hindrance to our onward progress; and I also tell you, and I tell you as a thinking man, that you are vainly attempting to get what you call reciprocity enforced. I say vainly, because you will never get it. (“Oh, oh!”) You are losing a chance, a favourable opportunity of obtaining relief from those burdens which still unjustly oppress the British shipowners. (A Voice:—“What is the amount?”) I am asked what is the amount? The amount of these burdens reaches nearly 1,000,000l. sterling. They are 2 per cent. upon the amount of the capital invested. Tax any interest 2 per cent., and what is the consequence? You will drive the capital employed in that interest elsewhere. (“Hear, hear!”) While that real grievance exists, you are following a shadow (“Oh, oh!”) How futile then are your attempts! (Confusion.) You are allowing the opportunity to pass of obtaining substantial relief while you are following this delusion of Protection. (Great uproar.) The policy I have recommended is the policy which is best for the interests of the British Shipowner, and it is as a British Shipowner that I advocate it. It is, as the representative of a large maritime constituency, that I have come forward regardless of your insults to state my opinions frankly on the subject, and to enter my solemn protest against the course of policy you vainly attempt to restore. (Great disapprobation.)
Mr. Duncan Dunbar rose to order. He said that they had not met there to discuss what had brought the shipping interest to its present state; for he thought the fact would be universally admitted that the Shipowners were on the road to ruin. (“Hear, hear!”) The object of the meeting, therefore, was not to discuss figures and tonnage, but simply to agree to a petition to the Houses of Parliament, asking them to appoint committees to hear the evidence of witnesses on the subject. His friend Mr. Lindsay,—no, he would not call him his friend (cheers and laughter), but the gentleman who spoke last went beside the mark in talking about the increase or decrease of tonnage. All must admit that the Shipowners were on the road to ruin. (“Hear, hear!”) The very property he had made by his industry and hard labour was melting away like snow before the sun. (“Hear!”) The man who called himself a British Shipowner, and moved such an amendment as the present, was the worst enemy the British Shipowner could have. (Cheers.)
[200] See ‘Hansard,’ vol. clvi. pp. 332 to 347, and p. 347 et seq.