Remarks on the Present System of Road Making / With Observations, Deduced from Practice and Experience, With a View to a Revision of the Existing Laws, and the Introduction of Improvement in the Method of Making, Repairing, and Preserving Roads, and Defending the Road Funds from Misapplication. Seventh Edition, Carefully Revised, With an Appendix, and Report from the Select Committee of the House of Commons, June 1823, with Extracts from the Evidence

by John Loudon McAdam

Bristol Turnpikes.

At a Meeting of the Trustees for the care of the several roads round the city of Bristol, holden on 7th December 1818, at the Guildhall in Bristol.

Thomas Daniel, Esq. in the Chair.

It appearing that under the triennial appointment of Mr. MᶜAdam, his office of general surveyor will cease on the 16th day of January next;—

Ordered unanimously, That he be again appointed to that office for a further term of three years, at the same salary.

Resolved unanimously, That the thanks of this meeting be given to Mr. MᶜAdam for the zeal and ability with which he has executed the very arduous duties of his office, from which it appears to this meeting that the most important advantages have resulted to the roads under his care.

8th March 1819.

The foregoing is a true copy from the book of proceedings of the trustees of the Bristol turnpike roads.

Osborne & Ward, Clerks.

Does any part of that saving which is stated to have taken place on those roads, arise from an increase of revenue?—There has been a small increase of revenue, but whether arising from tolls or a better collection of the statute labour, I cannot take upon me to say; but that increase of revenue must be deducted from the saving of 2,700l., which appears in the treasurer’s hands.

Jovis, 11º die Martii, 1819.

John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

Is there any part of your former evidence upon which you wish to give any further explanation to the Committee?—In consequence of the surprise and doubt expressed by some members of this honourable Committee, on that part of my evidence respecting the carrying a road over a morass in Somersetshire, and the proportions of the materials used upon that, and the part of the road with a rocky foundation, which I stated from memory, I thought it proper to write down to the treasurer of that road, to request the favour of him to send for the surveyor, and know the facts exactly from him. The treasurer, Mr. Phippen, who is a magistrate, sent a certificate, signed by the surveyor. There was a certificate, also, signed by Mr. Phippen; and with it there was a letter from Mr. Phippen, of explanation; both of which I wish to put in.

[The papers put in were as follow:]

“I do certify that that part of the sixteen miles of the Bristol turnpike road under my care, from Cross, over the marsh lands, towards Bridgewater, is now in the best state I ever knew it, which is wholly owing to having the very large stones laid at the foundation when the road was first made more than fifty years since, lifted and beaten very small. The general strength of the road is from seven inches to nine; and five tons of stones, I have always considered for the repairs of this part of the road equal to seven on the other part over the hills.

(Signed) “Edward Whitting, Surveyor.”

“I, Robert Phippen, Esq. one of His Majesty’s justices of the peace for the county of Somerset, and treasurer on the road mentioned in the above certificate, do hereby certify and declare, that the contents are true to the best of my knowledge and belief; and the road in question has been under my constant inspection for five years past; and the surveyor, Edward Whitting, is a person well known to me, and worthy of credit.

“Dated March 9th, 1819.”

“Letter from Robert Phippen, Esq. to John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq. No. 9, Northumberland-street, Strand, London.

“Dear Sir,

“There cannot, in my opinion, be any necessity to lay the foundation of a road on any ground, even the most soft and peaty, with large stones; daily observation tells me, that this is a great waste of time, materials, and money. I have had, for these five or six years past, a great deal of experience in seeing roads made, one in particular, over a very soft peat bog, by Wedmore and Glastonbury, in this county. At the time this new line of road was proposed to be made, a great difference of opinion existed as to its practicability, and the method to be pursued to accomplish it. Some of the parties were for laying the whole of the road over the bog with brush-wood, on which were to be put large flat stones, and on those smaller ones. We who were the other party, insisted that a more simple, less expensive, and more permanent method was to make it with stones alone, broken very small. We, at last, prevailed, and the system succeeded even beyond our most sanguine expectations; for this part of the road has stood uncommonly well, though the travelling on it has been very great, and with heavy carriages, and the little repairs wanted have been done as an inconsiderable expense, compared to the other part of the road made on hard ground over the hills.

“I remain, dear Sir, yours truly,

“Rob. Phippen.”

“Badgworth Court, near Axbridge,

March 9th, 1819.

I wish, in reference to the opinion I gave with respect to the statute labour, to state, that I have to transact with sixty-nine parishes, respecting their statute labour, in the counties of Somerset and Gloucester; and that it is in consequence of these transactions, I gave the opinion to the Committee that I had the honour to submit.

What proportion of the statute duty, by pecuniary payments, instead of the mode at present adopted, do you conceive might be saved?—I think, if one third of the present nominal value of the statute labour was to be regularly paid into the hands of the treasurer, that it would be more available to the public roads, than the present manner in which the work is done, and certainly less onerous to the agriculture of the country.

James MᶜAdam, Esq. called in; and Examined.

You are the son of the last witness?—I am.

Have you been employed as a general surveyor upon the turnpike roads?—I have.

Upon what roads have you been employed?—Upon the Epsom and Ewell turnpike roads of twenty-one miles; upon the Reading road of six miles; upon the eastern division of the Egham road, seven miles and a half; on the western division of the Egham road, eight miles and a half; on the Cheshunt turnpike roads, of eighteen miles; upon the Wades-mill turnpike trust of twenty-nine miles; on the old North road, or Royston road, of fifteen miles; upon the Huntingdon road of ten miles; and on the road from Huntingdon to Somersham of ten miles; being together one hundred and twenty-five miles.

How long have you been appointed to them?—My first appointment was in December 1817.

Had you been previously in the habits of making the improvement of turnpike roads your study?—I had at Bristol, under my father’s tuition.

The information you have acquired, I presume, then, has been entirely under your father’s system?—Yes, upon my father’s principles of making roads.

And those plans which you have adopted, have been entirely conformable to the evidence which he has given before this Committee?—Entirely conformable to those principles which my father has stated in his evidence before this Committee.

Can you give the Committee any information with regard to the revenues of the different roads under your management?—The gross revenue of the trusts I have mentioned, of which I am general surveyor, is about 19,550l. per annum.

Please to state to the Committee, the state of repair in which these roads were when they first came under your management?—The roads in general were in a very loose, rough, and heavy state, much overloaded with materials, the watercourses much stopped up, and the roads in general in a very bad state.

What improvements have taken place upon them since your undertaking the care of them?—The Epsom and Ewell roads were put into a perfect state of repair during the last spring and summer; the Reading road has also been put into a perfect state of repair during the last summer; and the Cheshunt turnpike roads have been put into a good state of repair, notwithstanding that the improvements commenced in October, and have been carried on through the whole winter: the improvement is proceeding rapidly in the other districts; but the three roads I have mentioned, are the only trusts that are brought into a perfect state of repair. I venture to speak freely and with great confidence, of the good state of repair of these three trusts; for the reason, that no credit whatever is attached to me, except what may be considered due by the careful attention and zealous execution of my father’s commands. The merits of the improvements are wholly his own.

Can you state to the Committee the expense with which these improvements have been accompanied?—The expense upon the Epsom roads amounted to 1,929l. 8s. 1d. in the year 1818; that is the only trust upon which I am enabled to state the twelvemonth’s expenditure.

In what proportion has the expenditure been divided between the labour of men, women, and children, and the price of cartage and of materials?—I have paid for labour upon the Epsom roads, 1,146l. 1s. 2d.; for materials, 98l. 10s.; for cartage, 227l. 16s.; for tradesmen’s bills, 342l. 0s. 11d.; for land to widen the roads, 115l.; which makes up the expenditure 1,929l. 8s. 1d. I beg here to state, that I did not avail myself of any statute duty upon the Epsom and Ewell roads.

Can you state to the Committee the expenditure upon these roads, in the years preceding your having the charge of them?—I can; in the years 1815, 1816, and, 1817, which are the three preceding years to my having the charge of these roads. In the year 1815, there was paid for labour, 379l. 14s.; for cartage, 1,019l. 14s.; for gravel, 486l. 15s. 5d.; for tradesmen’s bills, 178l. 6s. 3d.; making a total of 2,064l. 9s. 5d. In the year 1816, there was paid for labour 340l. 16s.; for cartage, 1,070l. 7s. 6d.; for gravel, 563l. 1s. 10d.; for tradesmen’s bills, 382l. 4s. 5d. making a total of 2,375l. 19s. 9d. In the year 1817, there was paid for labour, 339l. 16s.; for cartage, 1,103l. 16s. 3d.; for gravel, 551l.; for tradesmen’s bills, 681l. 6s. 1d.; making a total of 2,675l. 18s. 4d.; independent of the statute duty upon the several parishes, which were called forth by the former surveyor.

Do you know the value of that statute duty?—Not having had occasion to call it forth, I am unable precisely to answer the question; but the parishes are wealthy, and the statute labour must form a very considerable amount.

I presume the comparative smallness of the expense which you incurred for materials must have arisen from making use of the old materials upon the road, by lifting them according to the plan which your father has described?—That was the case.

In what state did you find the executive department of these roads when you took charge of them?—I found at Epsom a person as surveyor, who had been an underwriter at Lloyd’s Coffee-house, at a salary, as I am informed, of sixty pounds per annum, and who was permitted to keep the carts and horses, and do the cartage for the trust. At Reading, I found an elderly gentleman as the surveyor, who was also one of the commissioners, at a salary of twenty or thirty pounds per annum. I found at Cheshunt three surveyors, the trust being divided into three districts. One of the surveyors was an infirm old man, another a carpenter, and another a coal-merchant. I found on the Wades-mill trust three surveyors also, and the trust divided into three districts; one of these surveyors was a very old man, another a publican at Buckland, and the other a baker at Backway, with a salary of fourteen shillings a week each. I found on the Royston road a publican as surveyor there; and I found at Huntingdon a bedridden old man who had not been out of the house for several months, and who had been allowed by the commissioners to apply to a carpenter in the town for assistance, and to whom the commissioners allowed twenty pounds per annum; this person, who accompanied me in the survey of the roads, stated, that he could give but little attention to the management of the road, the salary being so small; and the state of those roads bore evidence to the truth of his assertion.

Without entering into individual cases, do you consider that it was possible, from the nature of the circumstances and engagements of these parties, that they could give that attention to the roads which their improvement required?—I do not consider it was at all likely that they would.

What arrangements did you make in the executive department of these roads after you took the charge of them?—With the permission of the trustees, I appointed upon each trust an active sub-surveyor, whom I required to keep a horse, and to have no other occupation whatever.

Can you state to the Committee the expense of employing such sub-surveyors?—The salary of the sub-surveyors in general is one hundred guineas a year; and where the revenues of the trust have been small, as in the case of the Royston roads and the Huntingdon roads, I have made one surveyor do the duty of both the trusts, in order that that expense might be divided.

What emoluments have you yourself derived from your employment upon these trusts?—I am unable to state the precise amount to the Committee; for the reason that I have in every instance requested of the trustees that that consideration might be deferred for at least a twelvemonth after I was honoured with the charge of the roads; Epsom is therefore the only road upon which that period has elapsed; and with the permission of the Committee, I will read the resolution entered upon the ledger of the Epsom roads upon that subject.

21st December, 1818.

We have examined the above accounts of Mr. MᶜAdam, the surveyor, from its commencement to this date, and find that the sum of 75l. 6s. 1d. is due to Mr. MᶜAdam, by the trust, say	£.75 6 1
But as no allowance has been made to the surveyor for his management, and as that management has given great satisfaction to the trustees, it was resolved to give the surveyor, to cover all charges, and for his trouble, it being distinctly understood for this year only, the sum of one hundred and fifty guineas	157 10 ——
	£.232 16 1

Which sum of 232l. 16s. 1d. the treasurer will be pleased to pay to Mr. MᶜAdam.

(Signed) T. Reid,

Edward Archbold,

John Webb,

Thomas Calverley,

Thomas Halliday,

William Dowdeswell,

J. M. Cripps,”

With permission of the Committee I will relate what I stated to the trustees, upon those resolutions being read to me; that I considered that sum as extremely liberal, and quite sufficient for one small trust to give a general surveyor, and were Epsom one trust in a district, such a sum would be quite sufficient for their proportion of the salary of a general surveyor; but standing alone, and divided from all other trusts of which I had the management, and separated also by the London roads, the necessity of my father’s travelling from Bristol and residing some time at Epsom, and of so much being required to be done the first year in a new trust, that sum did no more than repay the actual expenses incurred. It will be obvious to the Committee that such a trust as Reading, consisting of six miles only, distant from Bristol eighty miles, and from London forty miles, and anticipating an equal liberality on the part of the commissioners there, no sum such a trust could be justified in giving to a general surveyor could repay even a moiety of the expense of superintendance; the reward for my services, then, must be looked for in the convincing proof that my father’s principles of road-making are, if possible, more applicable, and more beneficial in a trust where the materials are very bad than where they are good: my only object in troubling the Committee with these observations, is to show that unless a district of roads are united, the expense of a general superintendence would not be paid by any salary such trust could be justified in giving.

Can you state to the Committee the nature of the materials which you have employed in the different roads under your care?—At Epsom there are flints; at Reading a very small, foul gravel, with a thick adhesive loam attached; at Waltham Cross, on the Cheshunt roads, small foul gravel; towards Ware, flints; on the Wades-mill trust, flints; on the Royston trust, flint, gravel, and blue permet stone; at Huntingdon, flint, and gravel; Egham, flint and gravel.

Is there any particular method which you have employed out of the common practice, for making use of these materials?—I have bestowed great labour, care and attention in the preparation of these materials in the pits, and in their separation previous to their being brought upon the roads; and also much labour and care for a length of time after their being laid upon the road, until it became perfectly smooth, hard and level.

Can you state to the Committee the probable future expense of keeping these roads in repair, after they have once been put into good order, as compared with the annual outgoings under the old management?—I am of opinion that the expense of maintaining these roads in good condition will be considerably less than the former expenditure; for the reason, that the better a road is, the less the wear; and that there will be a less quantity of materials required, when properly prepared, than were formerly used, when they were brought to the road in a very foul and improper state.

Can you state generally, whether the proportion of labour, materials and cartage that you have described upon the Epsom trust, agrees with the same proportion upon the other roads under your management?—On some of the other roads, the proportion of labour to cartage will be found greater than upon the Epsom road. At Cheshunt, in five months, during which the roads have been put into good repair, I have expended the sum of 800l. forty of which alone was paid for cartage. Upon the Wades-mill trust, out of 600l. expended, not a sixpence was paid for cartage. Upon the Royston roads, where I have spent 500l. not any of it was paid for cartage. Upon the Huntingdon roads, I have spent 20l. a week, the whole of which has been paid in labour. At Reading, during eight months, 500l. were laid out, 400l. of which were paid for labour.

Is it your opinion, that the proportion of labour, wages, and cartage, is likely to continue the same, in the future reparation of the roads?—I am of opinion they will; because there will be an increase of labour, in the preparation of the materials, previous to their being brought to the road; and also in the formation of the road after they are laid on. By a more careful and proper preparation of the materials, a much less quantity will be required to uphold the roads than formerly; I am, therefore, of opinion, that the proportion of labour to cartage will continue the same.

It appears, by your answer to a former question, that the expense of cartage has been much diminished, owing to your making use of the materials of the old road; will not the proportionate expense of cartage for future years be increased in consequence of your no longer having the resource of breaking up the roads, but being obliged to repair them with fresh materials?—In some degree it certainly would.

In what way is the statute labour at present performed upon these roads?—Upon two of the trusts only, the Royston road and the Huntingdon road, I have had occasion to avail myself of any statute labour; the fund upon the other trusts being more than sufficient to uphold the roads without having recourse to statute labour. Upon these two trusts I have derived some small advantage from statute labour.

Colonel Charles Brown, called in; and Examined.

Are you one of the commissioners of the turnpike road upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.

How long have you acted?—Several years, eight or ten years.

Be kind enough to explain to the Committee any recent improvements, which have taken place in the management and repairs of the roads within that trust?—Since the new method has been adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam, a very evident advantage has arisen to the roads; they are now extremely good, and were formerly very indifferent; I therefore attribute it solely to the present mode adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam for nothing can be better than the roads are at present.

Can you state to the Committee, whether the improvement has taken place with an increase or a diminution of the expense?—I believe at about one-third less; At least I understand that it was taken at about one-third less.

Has there been any increase upon the tolls upon these roads?—Not since Mr. MᶜAdam has had any thing to do with them. I have every reason to suppose there will be a diminution, in consequence of the good state of the roads.

Having heard Mr. MᶜAdam’s evidence, can you give the Committee any further information with regard to the means by which these improvements have been effected?—I conceive that the mode of Mr. MᶜAdam has been the means of making the roads so much better, that it is only wonderful when we see it now, that it has not taken place sooner, being founded upon the best principle possible.

Can you state whether these improvements have taken place by the use of any new materials, or by a better application of the existing materials?—By the better application of the existing materials, certainly.

Have you found this improved system attended with any advantages, in regard to the employment of the poor within those parishes?—With regard to the parish where I live, and where my property is situated, I have seen considerable improvement, since we have had the opportunity of sending our poor to be employed by Mr. MᶜAdam, who has most readily employed every one we have sent; and I can state now, that we have not a man unemployed that I know of.

Ezekiel Harman, Esquire, called in and Examined.

You are a commissioner of the turnpike road upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.

Having heard the evidence of the last witness; can you, upon your own knowledge, confirm the testimony that he has given with regard to improvement of the roads within your trust under Mr. MᶜAdam’s inspection, and the advantages derived therefrom?—I can, certainly. It is a matter of surprise to me, that so material an alteration has been already made in the roads, the advantages of which are obvious to every one travelling the road; and, as an additional proof, the coachmen who are in the habit of driving that road have confirmed this statement. I have witnessed also a similar improvement in the Epsom road, where the forward state of the improvement shows an additional proof of the advantages derived from this system.

Thomas Bridgman, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

Are you a commissioner upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.

Having heard the evidence of the two last witnesses does your judgment in all respects confirm the testimony which they have given, in regard to the improvement which has taken place upon your roads, and the advantages derived from them?—Most assuredly. I have witnessed these roads for more than twenty years, in a variety of forms as a commissioner. I have observed, the failure of two or three different sets of coachmen and coach concerns down below, all of whom are now saying, that if this system continues they shall require a horse less. All these parties were originally much prejudiced against the new system.

John Martin Cripps, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are a magistrate of the county of Surrey, and commissioner of the roads upon the Epsom trust?—I am.

Can you inform the Committee what was the state of the roads within your trust, previous to the year 1818?—They were very bad, having no attention paid to the formation of the road; having the water, in many places, going over the road; and great inattention paid to the breaking of the materials, and to the expense attending the carting of them.

At what time did you commence the alteration in the system of management?—At the latter end of December 1817, when the roads were put under the superintendence of Mr. MᶜAdam, senior, and when his son commenced the management.

What alterations have since taken place in the state of the roads?—By a newer formation of the road; the materials being properly broken; and the water carried under the road by trunks, or drains, with proper gratings.

Referring to the particulars of the expenditure given by Mr. MᶜAdam, jun. in his evidence this day, can you confirm the accuracy of those accounts?—Yes; and I can explain that the items for tradesmen’s bills include the wharfing and repairs of Bridges in each year; I can add, that the statute labour for 1815, 1816, and 1817, amounting to one hundred pounds each year, which Mr. MᶜAdam has not availed himself of in their improvements.

Had the system of management pursued by Mr. MᶜAdam proved the means of giving employment to labourers in the district, and thereby lessening the poor’s rates?—Very much so; and they have occasionally employed from twenty to thirty persons, stout able-bodied men, who otherwise would have been obliged to have been supported out of the parish rates.

Have you in consequence had any persons who were able to work who have been out of employ?—Between twenty and thirty persons have been employed for the last three months in breaking flints, and in repairing and improving the roads, who otherwise must have come upon the poor’s rates; and all the persons who have been enabled to work have found employment in consequence of this improvement; that has been the means of greatly relieving our poor’s rates.

Has the same system been extended to the private roads in that district?—It has been adopted in some of the private roads of that district, and with the same beneficial effects.

Can you state any particulars with regard to the necessity there has been for carting additional materials for these roads?—At present Mr. MᶜAdam having lifted the roads, has found more than sufficient material for the support of those roads.

What have been the materials that have been used?—The materials that have been used are flints chiefly.

During the state of improvement of these roads, have the tolls been increased or reduced within your trust?—At our last meeting, we agreed, that at the next letting, the tolls should be reduced from May next, for the benefit of agriculture in general; and that where two shillings and eight-pence is now paid, they will have now to pay one shilling; that with relation to the agricultural interest, will be a reduction of twenty five pounds per mile.

Within your own personal observation, have you known any other instance in which a road has been formed upon the same principles as those adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam?—I had an opportunity of observing in Sweden that the roads were more beautiful than any I ever beheld; they are formed in the same manner as by Mr. MᶜAdam, the materials broken extremely small. The material is the best in the world, as it is rocks of Granite; and so well do they understand the necessity of breaking them small, that you never behold throughout Sweden, a fragment of granite larger than the size of a walnut, for the purposes of the roads.

What is the shape of these roads?—To the eye they appear perfectly flat; but upon trial by the spirit level, there is a slight degree of convexity.

William Dowdeswell, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are a commissioner upon the Epsom trust?—I am.

How long have you been a commissioner?—About four or five years.

Have you had any opportunity of observing the comparative state of the roads since they were put under the care of Mr. MᶜAdam, compared with that in which they were before?—They were very bad when first put under Mr. MᶜAdam’s care; they are now, I think, very good.

Do you attribute this to the improved system of management?—Totally.

Can you confirm the evidence that has been already given relative to the expenses of repairing the roads previously to that time and since?—From the statement made to me by the former surveyor, and from Mr. MᶜAdam’s statement, I believe the statements delivered in to you are perfectly correct. Considering the advantage which the public has derived from Mr. MᶜAdam’s system, I have adopted the same upon the parish roads. I offered myself to the parish as their surveyor, for the purpose of carrying that system into execution. I have found employment for all persons who wanted employment upon the parish roads, assisted occasionally by persons going to the public roads under Mr. MᶜAdam.

How long have you adopted this system upon the private roads?—Ever since October last.

From that period the whole of the poor have been employed upon the parish roads?—From that period the whole of the poor that wanted employment, have been employed upon the parish roads, or upon the public roads under Mr. MᶜAdam.

Have those persons been employed by you, by piece-work or by day-work?—The roads were in such a state, and as I wanted knowledge to employ by piece-work, I have been compelled to employ them by day-work.

From your experience are you of opinion that these private roads, made upon the new system which has been adopted, can be kept in good repair at a less expense than they formerly cost in their bad state?—At a very considerable less expense than formerly.

Martis, 23º die Martii, 1819.

Mr. Benjamin Farey, called in; and Examined.

You are, I believe, the surveyor of the Whitechapel road?—I am.

How long have you been in that office?—Nine years.

In what situation did you find the road, at the time of your undertaking the management?—I found the Whitechapel road in a dreadful state, partly from the neglect of the surveyor, in laying on foul and improper materials. In the autumn of 1809, it was almost impassable.

Gravel is the only material you have in that neighbourhood?—Gravel is the only material we find, on or near the spot.

Is the traffic upon the Whitechapel road so great as to render it impossible to preserve it in good order with the present materials?—It is impossible to preserve it in good order at all times, with the present materials; it is past the art of man.

Do you consider the traffic upon that road, as greater than upon any other road out of London?—I believe it is a heavier traffic; there are not so many light carriages, as on some other roads.

What species of carriages do you consider do the most injury to your road?—The carriages that do the most injury, are those with the widest wheels.

In what way do you consider that they injure the road?—By their great weights destroying the materials.

Are the carriages you allude to, exempt from the payment of tolls?—They pay much less tolls. The pressure, or crushing of materials by the wide wheels, is owing to the wheels not running flat.

Being of a conical shape?—Being of a barrelled and conical shape, and the middle tire projecting above the others, with rough nails.

Do you consider, that if those wheels were made of a cylindrical or flat shape, it would be good policy to grant them any exemption from tolls?—They would be less injurious for being cylindrical; but whenever the road was at all out of the level, and the weight came on one edge of the wheel, the road would be destroyed there.

Upon the whole, is it your opinion that there are any circumstances which justify an exemption from toll, on account of the breadth of the wheels?—I do not see any at all, for I think they are injurious in every sense, on account of the great weights they carry.

Do you consider that injury is done to the roads, in consequence of the use of single shafts in waggons?—Very great.

In what way?—In consequence of single shafts, the horses follow in one track, in the centre of the carriage; and the wheels also follow each other in other tracks, and cut ruts: if there were double shafts, they would naturally avoid former wheel-tracks, which would be less injurious to the road.

Do you consider it therefore desirable to give encouragement to double shafts?—I do.

Do you consider the watering of that road in any way injurious?—I consider that watering that road in summer, is very injurious.

In what respect?—The water separates the stones, owing to the softening of the loam, and makes the road spongy and loose.

At what periods do you consider it injurious to water the road for laying the dust?—Before May and after August.

Have you not a practice of sometimes watering in winter, when there is no dust?—After the most careful sifting of the gravel, a small quantity of loamy dirt will unavoidably still adhere to the stones, and this loam, together with a glutinous matter which accumulates in the summer from the dung and urine of the cattle (which accumulation the summer watering has a tendency to increase) occasions the wheels to stick to the materials, in certain states of the road, in spring and autumn, when it is between wet and dry, particularly in heavy foggy weather, and after a frost; by which sticking of the wheels, the Whitechapel road is often, in a short time, dreadfully torn and loosened up; and it is for remedying this evil, that I have, for more than eight years past, occasionally watered the road in winter. As soon as the sticking and tearing up of the materials is observed to have commenced, several water-carts are employed upon these parts of the road, to wet the loamy and glutinous matters so much, that they will no longer adhere to the tire of the wheels, and to allow the wheels and feet of the horses to force down and again fasten the gravel stones; the traffic, in the course of four to twenty-four hours after watering, forms such a sludge on the surface, as can be easily raked off by wooden scrapers, which is performed as quickly as possible; after which the road is hard and smooth, the advantages of this practice of occasional winter watering have been great; and it might, I am of opinion, be adopted with like advantages on the other entrances into London, or wherever else the traffic is great, and the gravel stones are at times observed to be torn up by the sticking of the wheels.

In what state of the road are you in the habit of laying on fresh materials?—I prefer laying on materials immediately after the road has had a scraping, in consequence of there being upon the surface of the road a small quantity of dirty matter and broken gravel, which then form a sort of cement for the gravel to fix in.

You consider it advantageous to lay on the materials when the road is wet?—I do, because the gravel adheres closer.

Considering the very great traffic upon the Whitechapel road, is it your opinion that it would be advantageous to pave any part of that road?—I think it would be desirable to pave it, within some feet of the footpath more particularly.

What breadth from the sides of that road would you consider it desirable to have paved?—About eleven or twelve feet from the footpath.

You would consider it a desirable plan to pave the sides of that road in preference to the centre?—Certainly.

For what reasons?—If the centre was paved, the light carriages would be very much annoyed; when the gravel road was good on the sides, the heavy carriages would go there, and the light carriages would be driven on the stones from the sides again; if the centre was paved the carters would be obliged to walk on that road to manage their horses, and would be considerably annoyed by carriages, horsemen, &c. passing: but if the sides of that road were paved, the carters would be enabled to walk on the footpath and to manage their horses without annoyance.

What is the shape of road which, from your experience, you would give the preference to?—I would have the road barrelled, and made so as that it would convey off the water in the severe weather in winter, when the roads are generally bad.

Which do you give the preference to, a road with a flat surface, or one that gradually declines from the centre?—I think a road which gradually declines from the centre is by far the most preferable, decidedly so.

What is the degree of the declivity or fall which you would recommend as the most desirable?—I have paid particular attention to the Whitechapel road, where it is of the width of 55 feet, and the fall from the centre to the sides is 12 inches; but to attain this shape, when the road is worn down, when first covered with gravel, there should be a fall not exceeding from 16 to 18 inches from the centre to the sides. [The witness delivered in a cross section of the road.]

Is it your opinion that any parliamentary regulation with regard to stage coaches is necessary for preventing injury to the road?—None.

You think it desirable that they should remain as at present?—Yes.

What is the state of the Whitechapel road now, as compared with what it was some years ago?—During the greater part of the year, it is now one of the most pleasant roads out of London to travel upon; but from the gravel being small and brittle, it is soon worn down, by the great number of heavy weights passing on it. With the small gravel we have in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, the road at times breaks up, and becomes in a bad state; but by the application of water, to stop the sticking of the wheels, and separate the sludge, in two days they are found in a good state again.

Have you any other suggestion to make to the Committee for the improvement of that road, or of roads in general?—On that road, very great improvement might be made, in not allowing the wide wheels to pass by paying so little toll, or to carry so great weights as at present; if the narrow-wheeled waggons were to use double shafts, they would be less injurious to the roads: even with narrow-wheeled carts, if the two fore-horses were double, the shafts not being in their track, it would be less injurious to the roads.

John Farey, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

What is your profession?—I am a mineral surveyor and engineer.

Have you turned your attention to the state of the roads in the different districts of the kingdom?—I have, very particularly.

Can you furnish the Committee with any information with regard to the state of those roads, as compared with former years?—I can; I have particularly attended to that subject; more especially in the time of the late duke of Bedford, for whom I was an agent. I have since been employed in nearly every part of England and Wales, and also in Scotland: and I have statements by me of the various observations I have made.

You have been employed under the late duke of Bedford, in the improvement of the roads in the neighbourhood of Woburn?—In the management of his roads in Bedfordshire, and of all his rural works.

Describe what improvement of the main road has taken place under your direction, in Woburn?—The whole of the line of the road through Woburn, except about three hundred yards in different places, is on a very strong alluvial clay: the road passes over naked sand, only for three hundred yards; this road had been rendered so sandy and so bad, entirely by bringing soft sand-stone out of Buckinghamshire, at three miles carriage, upon the average, in Woburn, and some of that stone was brought almost to the end of Hockliff Town, where the best gravel abounds. It appeared, from the remains of a number of gravel pits, that there had been formerly a great deal of gravel dug in Woburn; this circumstance I mentioned to the duke of Bedford, and he desired search to be made; and it was ascertained that Woburn might furnish gravel enough, adequate to any purpose. In consequence of which, his Grace directed, when the labourers were much in want of employment, that the poor persons should be employed in preparing a great quantity of gravel for the purposes of this turnpike road. I undertook to direct the taking of this gravel out, and to level the siftings and dirt in a uniform manner, and lay all the soil again upon the top; by which means the land was in no degree injured, but, in fact, considerably benefited, by being loosened to that depth. A great many hundreds of cubic yards of clean-sifted and picked gravel were prepared in numerous square stacks, and the trustees at a meeting, or else their clerk, were informed, that this gravel his Grace offered to the road at the mere cost of labour, without any thing for the gravel, or the temporary damage to the occupiers of the land. After a long time of hesitation, the trustees or their clerk returned an answer, that they did not like that mode, alleging that their surveyor ought to be allowed to dig materials where and how he liked, and they would not have this gravel: it lay there, some of it for two or three years, upon the land. In that time a number of private roads were making of his Grace’s, and a good deal of it was used on these. The main road became progressively worse and worse, and the post-office caused the parish to be indicted. I was then surveyor, and made an application to the trustees, stating the circumstances the road was under: that road-trust is thirteen miles in length, two of which, or rather more, are in the parish of Woburn; there is a toll-gate in the parish which the inhabitants are liable to all the toll of; some of them, even in going and returning to and from their fields: the trustees had exacted very strictly the half of the statute duty, although the parish had, I think, eleven miles of private roads to maintain. I mention this circumstance to show there was no default on the part of the parish; and it was afterwards proved, that they had done their duty; the trustees merely laughed at the application, and said, that they had nothing to do with it: we must repair the road, and till we did so, they would not lay out a farthing upon our road. It happened, very fortunately for the parish of Woburn, that their act was very nearly out, and they applied for a new one; the parish opposed it, stating, that the trustees had misapplied the tolls, and praying, that the part of the road, through Woburn, should be taken out of their management; the act accordingly directed, that two-thirteenths of the tolls should be paid over to the parish surveyors of Woburn, and the trustees were not to call for any statute duty, or interfere in the management of this part of the road; in consequence of this, the gravel mentioned, which remained, and great quantities dug on purpose, was used upon the road, in a sufficient quantity at once, so as to admit of its settling down together; for it wanted lining nine inches thick, or more, and the road has since been perfectly good.

Jovis, 25º die Martii, 1819.

John Farey, Esquire, called in; and Examined,

In effecting the improvement of the Woburn road, did you make use of any particular mode of applying the gravel?—The gravel, before the time of using it, had been very clean-sifted, and separated from the dirt and sand; the great stones had been picked out, and such of the flints which were of a long and irregular shape, in order that they might be broken. After laying the gravel upon the road men were daily employed to rake the gravel into the ruts, and, at the same time, to carefully pick off the surface any stones that were either soft or improperly shaped, like long flints, or too large.

What is your opinion, in regard to the form the most preferable for turnpike roads?—A small convexity in the middle.

Will you state the fall, in any given width of road, that you would prefer?—Referring to my brother, Mr. Benjamin Farey’s evidence, I agree with him in wishing that the section which he produced, might be received by the Committee, as an answer to this question.

Is there any particular circumstance, in the formation of roads, more particularly applicable to the immediate neighbourhood of London?—In the neighbourhood of London, and of several other large towns, the materials that are to be readily procured, are of too tender and brittle a nature to endure the wear of the heavy carriages; I therefore am of opinion, that it would be proper to pave the sides of all the principal entrances into London; but not the middle, as has been done on the Commercial road and Borough Stones’-end road. My reasons for preferring the sides being paved are, that it is next to impossible to compel the carters to keep upon the pavement in the middle of the road, in too many instances; the fear of damage, from the swift going carriages, occasions them, either to draw their carts close to the sides, and walk upon the footpaths, or what is worse to leave their horses in the middle, beyond a train of carriages. The sides being paved, would enable one of those trains of carriages to enter London on one side of the road, and go out of it on the other, without many occasions to turn out of their tracks: which keeping nearly to the same tracks, upon a well-paved road, would not be prejudicial; but on a road formed of gravel is entirely ruinous.

Do you consider that the plan of rolling the roads in the neighbourhood, of London, might be advantageously introduced?—The centre of the roads I should recommend to remain covered with clean-sifted and picked gravel, having as many as possible of its large, roundish and smooth stones broken by means of a hammer before the time of laying it on the road, and that an heavy iron roller, of from four to five feet diameter, and not less, might be advantageously used in the first settling down of this gravel; a small roller, such as I believe to have been tried in the neighbourhood of London, very heavily loaded on its top, might have a tendency to force the loose gravel before it so as not easily to be drawn or to mount on to the gravel driven before it without crushing the flints. I will add, I am of opinion, that a roller could not be beneficially used upon a road at any other times but after new coating it with gravel, or after a frost or the sticking of materials to the wheels may have loosened up the materials.

Do you consider that the present regulations in regard to exemptions of tolls to waggons with broad wheels, are justified by sound policy?—In my opinion, those exemptions have wholly originated in mistaken principles, and that no wheels wider than about six inches are now, in fact, used upon the roads, owing to the general and gross deceptions which the waggoners practise as to the breadth of surface that their wheels roll on; and that if by any more efficient regulations, the users of broad wheels were compelled to roll the breadths of surface, which the laws contemplate, all such wheels would be immediately disused, from the great additional force of draught which broad wheels occasion during the average state of all the roads.

Are you of opinion that any regulation by statute, for substituting cylindrical for conical wheels, would remedy that evil, or justify an exemption from toll?—As far as I have observed, there are no conical wheels in use: all the wheels are rounding or barrelled, and it is comparatively an immaterial circumstance whether they approach the form of a cone or a cylinder, while they remain so rounding or barrelled, because their enormous loads roll on a very small portion of the surface of all those broad wheels. I think that six-inch cylindrical wheels, or under, are the most practicable and useful, provided the projecting nails are most rigidly prohibited, which I believe can never be done but by a penalty per nail upon the wheelers who put in those nails, and upon the drivers of the carriages who used such roughly-nailed wheels.

Are you of opinion that the penalties now fixed by law upon over-weights are regulated upon good principles?—I consider the whole system as to penalties upon over-weights generally bad; the present regulations seem to me framed upon mistaken principles, and are the source of very great impositions.

In what manner might the penalties and tolls upon carts and waggons be best fixed?—It is not practicable very simply or in this way to state any one scale that would be generally applicable for each breadth of wheels: below six inches, there should be a rate fixed, which would apply to ordinary or gate-tolls, and at the weighing machines additional tolls, which I will call machine-tolls, should be levied upon all carriages which exceeded the weight, to be regulated in an increasing scale for each breadth of wheel, so as very greatly to discourage, but not ruinously to prohibit the occasional carrying of large weights upon any wheels.

You are not, then, of opinion that it would be right to do away the regulations altogether in respect to the weights, and apportion the tolls only to the number of horses?—By no means.

Are you acquainted with any particular weighing machine, which obviates the common objection in regard to impositions by the machine-keepers?—I am; Mr. Salmon, of Woburn, many years ago, contrived, and had a patent (which has expired) for a weighing machine, intended to prevent impositions on the carters: the machine being so contrived as to be locked up from the machine-keeper, and accessible only to the surveyor, and so as to exhibit the exact weight by a revolving index, like the hands of a clock, which are called clock-face indexes; a great number of these weighing machines have long been in use in the kingdom, some in the immediate environs of London: by looking at the index of which machine, the carter, or any passer by, may see that the machine, before the carriage is drawn upon its weigh-bridge, is in just balance; and all the time the carriage remains upon the weigh-bridge, the index exhibits the weight, so that the carter can take it down; and at the same time the dial-plate is made an abstract of the law, by there being written against each of the weights fixed, the breadth of the carriage wheel, and the season to which that weight is applicable at the commencement of penalties for over-weights.

Can you inform the Committee of the expense of a machine of this description?—I cannot; but it is trifling, compared with its advantages, and an index may be added to a machine upon the common principle, using weights, placed in a scale; they may be applied to any good machine already in use.

Are you of opinion there exists any necessity for limiting the number of horses in carts and wagons, upon roads where there are weighing-machines?—I am of opinion not; and even doubt the propriety of calculating the gate-toll by the number of horses which draw the carriage. Upon private or parish roads, where no machines are erected, there seems, however, no other mode of regulating or preventing excessive loads being carried, to the ruin of the roads, than limiting the number of horses; but in case of the practice becoming general, which already prevails in many of the towns in the middle of England, of there being a weighing-machine, kept by a cottager, at all the principal entrances at the town, at which he is authorized (by the local magistrates, I believe,) to collect a small toll for each weighing, for those who voluntarily apply to him, by which means all loads passing into and out of such towns, may be, and the greater part of them are now, weighed; and if this were adopted in the environs of London, (with the addition of a yard and a warehouse, where a carter who has inadvertently taken up too large a load, either of dung, furniture, or other articles, of the weights of which he could not be accurately informed, may learn the same; and where, upon the result of this weighing, if it should be discovered that he had much too large a load, he could there throw off and deposit a part of it, either to abandon it if of small value like dung, or to take it up from the warehouse, at a future time,) these entrance weighing-machines would remove the only valid objection to weighing the loads of manure going out of London, by which the roads are at present more cut up and destroyed, than by any other description of carriages.

Will you have the goodness to state the principle upon which you prefer that the tolls should be regulated entirely by weights and breadth of wheels, without regard to the number of horses drawing?—Because nothing can be more vague or unsatisfactory, than the latter mode of defining weights, or preventing the carrying of excessive loads, because horses are of such very different degrees of size, condition and strength, and the humanity or otherwise of their drivers are so very different; but more on account of the very great inequality of the different roads of the kingdom, which this general regulation is now made to apply to, as to the number and steepness of the hills: the precautions that have been used, of setting up posts upon the tops and bottoms of those steeps, to define where extra horses may be used, are entirely become useless, comparatively, none of the hills now remain, to any length, with so great a degree of steepness, as to cause it to be worth any one’s while to keep horses stationed there, for the purpose of assisting heavy carriages up those hills for hire; still less has it occurred that any waggoner has spare horses following his waggon, for which he must pay tolls, in order to avail himself of this useless permission, to use any number of horses up the steep hills.

Are you of opinion that stage-coaches require, or would admit of any regulation with respect to their wheels or weights?—I am clearly of opinion, that they would not; for in travelling, when it has happened that I could not get a seat on the front of the coach, I have, through many long days, carefully attended to the impression made by the wheels of the carriages upon which I have been travelling (when they have been among the heaviest loaded coaches) and have compared these impressions with those of the carts and waggons, particularly broad-wheeled ones, which we met; from which observations, and other more particular ones, I am of opinion, that the injury done to the roads by the coaches, compared with their utility and the tolls they pay, is not such as to justify any legal restraint on their wheels or weights.

Are you of opinion, that it would be attended with any advantage to the roads, to encourage, by any regulation or exemption from tolls, the use of carriages, varying the length of their axles, so as to prevent their running in the same tracks?—I am of opinion it would be very beneficial, and have particularly so stated to the Board of Agriculture, with an example of the tolls over a new road, which are so regulated in Derbyshire: in addition to which, some inducement in the abatement of tolls, might be made to those carriages, which now generally use single shafts like the farmers’ carts and waggons, on their adopting double shafts, so that all their horses may draw in pairs; this being applicable even to three-horse carts, as far as concerns the two foremost. Stage-coaches, for the reasons here alluded to, as they do all draw in pairs, and very seldom follow in any previous and deep rut, do far less damage to the roads than otherwise would happen; their springs also, and swiftness of motion, contributing, very materially, to lessening their wear of the road.

Are you of opinion that any advantage would be derived from the general commutation of statute duty?—I have long been of opinion that the whole principle of statute duty, as now regulated, is erroneous; labour in kind should entirely cease: and the surveyor collect a more equable rate on all property in his township; the present regulations for calling out the teams and making of a road rate, are so complicated, as to be above the capacity of the majority of parish surveyors, who in most or all instances collect the rates for the turnpike roads as well as the private roads.

Will you state your opinion of the statute labour, as it particularly applies to turnpike roads?—In all the local road acts which I have examined, one half of the statute duty of each township is apportioned to each toll road which passes through any part or corner of that township, which in innumerable instances, is very highly prejudicial; a due proportion of the fair road rate, as already mentioned, should be payable to each toll road, where there are more than one in the township, in proportion (or nearly so, as the quarter sessions might order) to all the lengths of all the roads within the township which it contributes to repair.

From your observation of the different roads throughout the kingdom, do you think that important advantages would be derived from their being placed under skilful surveyors, acting for large districts?—At present, the separate trusts are so exceedingly different in extent, many of them extending only three, four and five miles, while others have fifty or a hundred miles of road under their trusts, that it seems impracticable, in many trusts, to employ a very skilful and competent surveyor, on account of the great and unnecessary expense that would be incurred on the short lengths of road; but if the legislature should see it right to enact the appointment of thoroughly competent district surveyors, who might have the superintendence and control, to a defined extent, over the officers of the local trustees of turnpike roads, as well as over the surveyors of the parish roads within their districts, the most important advantages would result.

Do you not think great inconvenience arises from the great numbers generally found forming commissioners of turnpike trusts?—From my own experience, I cannot say that I have seen any evil from the great number of trustees, on the contrary, the greatest mismanagement that I have seen in any roads, has arisen from the clergymen of the districts being almost the only acting trustees; the greatest and most active land owners frequently having no share in such trusts: the late duke of Bedford, for instance, not being a trustee in the vicinity of Woburn for many years after he took an active part in improving the district.

James Walker, Esq. called in; and Examined.

You are a civil engineer?—I am.

In the course of your experience have you turned your attention to the making and repairing of roads?—I have been employed in the making and repairing of several roads, and the regulation of others.

In what part of the kingdom have you been employed, and what observations have occurred to you upon this subject?—The whole of the works executed under the Commercial Road, the East India Road, the Barking Road, and the Tilbury Road Acts, have been under my direction, as well as the roads made under the Bridge and Dock Companies, for which I have been engineer. The Commercial Road, which is between the West India Docks and London is referred to in the report of a former Committee on highways, as particularly well fitted for heavy traffic; that road is seventy feet wide, and is divided into two footways, each ten feet, and a carriage road fifty feet wide, of which twenty feet in the middle is paved with granite. I have a section of the form of this road (No. 1, in the annexed plan.) The East India Dock branch of the Commercial Road is also seventy feet wide, ten feet of which is paved with granite. I have prepared also a section of that road (No. 2, in the plan.) The traffic upon the Commercial Road, both up and down, is very great, and necessarily required a width of paving sufficient for two carriages to pass upon it. I am quite sure that the expense of this road would have been very much greater, probably much more than doubled if it had not been paved, and that the carriage of goods would also here been much more expensive; indeed it would have been next to impossible to have carried the present loads upon a gravelled road. The road has been paved for about sixteen years, and the expense of supporting it has been small, although the stage-coaches generally, as well as almost all the carts and waggons, go upon it; while the expense of the gravelled part has been comparatively great. During the thirteen years that the East India Dock branch has been paved, the paving has not cost 20l. in repairs, although the waggons, each weighing about five tons, with the whole of the East India produce, which is brought from the docks by land, have passed all that time in one track upon it, and a great deal of heavy country traffic for the last eight years, when a communication was formed with the county of Essex. The advantage of paving part of a road where the traffic is great, and the materials of making roads bad or expensive, is not confined to improving the conveyance for heavy goods and reducing the horses’ labour; but as the paving is always preferred for heavy carriages, the sides of a road are left for light carriages, and are kept in much better repair than otherwise they could possibly be. It is not, I am sure, overstating the advantage of the paving, but rather otherwise, to say, that taking the year through, two horses will do more work, with the same labour to themselves, upon a paved road than three upon a good gravelled road, if the traffic upon the gravelled road is at all considerable, and if the effect of this, in point of expense, is brought into figures, the saving of the expense of carriage will be found to be very great when compared with the cost of the paving. If the annual tonnage upon the Commercial Road is taken at 250,000 tons, and at the rate of only 3s. per ton from the Docks, it could not upon a gravelled road be done under 4s. 6d. say however 4s. or 1s. per ton difference, making a saving of 12,500l., or nearly the whole expense of the paving in one year. I think I am under the mark in all these figures, and I am convinced therefore that the introduction of paving would, in many cases, be productive of great advantage, by improving the gravel road, reducing the expense of repairs, and causing a saving of horses’ labour much beyond what there is, I believe, any idea of. The expense of a ton of Aberdeen granite paving-stones laid in London, or in any similar situation, including laying, and every expense, is about 25s.; the cost of the same weight of gravel is from 3s. 6d. to 5s. The cost of granite paving, 9 inches deep, is from 8s. 6d. to 10s. 6d. per superficial yard, or from 750l. to 920l. per mile for every yard in width. Guernsey granite is harder and more durable than Aberdeen granite, but is more expensive by about 10 per cent. and I think is this much better. Some stone of very good quality from near Greenock, has been used lately upon the Commercial Road, it is cheaper than Aberdeen, and appears to be very durable. The requisites for forming a good paving are to have the stones properly squared and shaped, not as wedges, but nearly as rectangular prisms; to sort them into classes according to their sizes, so as to prevent unequal sinking, which is always the effect of stones, or rows of stones, of unequal sizes being mixed together; to have a foundation properly consolidated before the road is begun to be paved, and to have the stones laid with a close joint, the courses being kept at right angles from the direction of the sides, and in perfectly straight lines, the joints carefully broken, that is, so that the joint between two stones in any one course shall not be in a line with, or opposite to a joint in any of the two courses adjoining. After the stones are laid they are to be well rammed, and such of the stones as appear to ram loose, should be taken out and replaced by others; after this the joints are to be filled with fine gravel, and if it can be done conveniently, the stability of the work will be increased by well watering at night the part that has been done during the day, and ramming it over again next morning. The surface of the pavement is then to be covered with an inch or so of fine gravel, that the joints may be always kept full, and that the wheels may not come in contact with the stones while they are at all loose in their places. Attention to these points will very much increase both the smoothness and durability of the paving. I have found great advantage from filling up, or, as it is called, grouting the joints with lime-water, which finds its way into the gravel between and under the stones, and forms the whole into a solid concreted mass. The purpose served by the lime might also be effectually answered by mixing a little of the borings or chippings of iron, or small scraps of iron hoop, with the gravel used in filling up the joints of the paving. The water would very soon create, an oxide of iron, and form the gravel into a species of rock. I have seen a piece of rusty hoop taken from under water, to which the gravel had so connected itself, for four or five inches round the hoop, as not to be separated without a smart blow of a hammer. And the cast-iron pipes which are laid in moist gravel soon exhibit the same tendency.

It has occurred to me, as I stated to the chairman of this honourable Committee some weeks since, that considerable improvement would be found from paving the sides of a road, upon which the heavy traffic is great, in both directions, and leaving the middle for light carriages, the carmen walking upon the footpaths or sides of the road, would then be close to their horses, without interrupting, or being in danger of accidents from light carriages, which is the case when they are driving upon the middle of the road; and the unpaved part being in the middle or highest part of the road, would be more easily kept in good repair. I have prepared a section of a road formed in this way (No. 3 in the plan), but unless the heavy traffic in both directions is great, one width (say ten or twelve feet, if very well paved,) will be found sufficient; and in this case, I think the paving ought to be in the middle of the road. The width of many of the present roads is, besides, such, that ten or twelve feet can be spared for paving, while twice that width would leave too little for the gravelled part. Although the first cost of paving is so great, I do not think that any other plan can be adopted to good and so cheap in those places where the materials got in the neighbourhood are not sufficient for supporting the roads. A coating of whinstone is, for instance, more durable than the gravel with which the roads round London are made and repaired; but much less so than paving; although the freight and carriage of the whinstone, and of the paving-stones, which form the principal items of the expense, are nearly the same. Scotch whinstone, or the granite rubble (that is, rough chippings of granite,) could not, I should think, be delivered into barges in the river, at less than from 14s. to 15s. per ton, the freight alone being from 11s. to 12s., while the price of Aberdeen granite, in the same situation, is only from 19s. to 21s. and 22s. Maidstone ragstone in the rubble state, costs about 7s. per ton: it is a limestone, and much less durable than the whin. The carriage from the river to the road, of all these, is of course the same. Flint, again, is so much less durable than whin, that it will not bear the expense of carriage (which may be taken at from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per ton per mile) from any distance, to make it preferable to the gravel, or paving, in point of cost, for the roads near London. A double iron rail-road, to suit the London waggons, which some have recommended, would cost about 4,500l. per mile, and would be fitted for waggons only of one precise width, and for waggons or heavy carts only; while, from the difficulty of crossing it, it would form rather an obstacle to light carriages. Blocks of Aberdeen granite, twelve inches wide and fifteen inches deep, laid in the way of the wheels (as recommended by others,) would be nearly as expensive; and the eight joints, which would be formed between the stone and the gravel, by four rows of stone, would be found extremely troublesome and inconvenient. Both these substitutes for paving, therefore, though equally expensive as paving, have peculiar disadvantages; and they have this besides, which is common to them both, that they make no provision for preventing the great wear upon gravelled roads, which is caused by the horses’ feet, particularly if (as is the case in a rail-road) they are confined in one track.

Attention in the forming and repairing of roads, will in all cases do much to compensate for the inferiority of the material used for that purpose, of which the improvements in the general state of the highways within the last twenty years affords the best proof. To form the road upon a good foundation, and to keep the surface clear of water after it is formed, are the two most essential points towards having the best roads possible, upon a given country, and with given materials. For obtaining the first of these objects, it is essential that the line for the road be taken so that the foundation can be kept dry either by avoiding low ground by raising the surface of the road above the level of the ground on each side of it, or by drawing off the water by means of side drains. The other object, viz. that of clearing the road of water, is best secured by selecting a course for the road which is not horizontally level, so that the surface of the road may in its longitudinal section, form in some degree an inclined plane; and when this cannot be obtained, owing to the extreme flatness of the country, an artificial inclination may generally be made. When a road is so formed, every wheel-track that is made, being in the line of the inclination, becomes a channel for carrying off the water, much more effectually than can be done by a curvature in the cross section or rise in the middle of the road, without the danger, or other disadvantages which necessarily attend the rounding a road much in the middle. I consider a fall of about one inch and a half in ten feet, to be a minimum in this case, if it is attainable without a great deal of extra expense. It is in the knowledge of the above points, and of the application of them in practice, that what may be called the science of road-making consists, as the observations apply in every case. When a road is to be formed, accurate sections of the rises and falls of the ground should always be taken, in the same way as is done for a canal, before the line is determined, or the levels of the road fixed upon, and when the course and levels of the road are laid down, the derail of the work ought to be particularly explained by a specification and plan, describing the manner in which each particular length is to be formed and completed.

The quantity of materials necessary to form the road depends so much upon the soil and the nature of the materials themselves, that it is impossible to lay down any general rules for them. The thickness ought to be such that the greatest weight will not affect more than the surface of the shell, and it is for this purpose chiefly, that thickness is required, in order to spread the weight which comes upon a small part only of the road over a large portion of the foundation. When the ground is very soft, trees, bavins or bushes, are applied to answer the same purpose, and to carry off the water previous to the materials of the road being so consolidated as to form a solid body, and to be impervious to water. Bushes are, however, not advisable to be used, unless they are so low as always to be completely moist. When they are dry and excluded from the air they decay in a very few years, and produce a sinking in place of preserving the road; a thickness of chalk is useful for the same purpose in cases where bushes are improper, the chalk mixing with the gravel or stones becomes concreted, and presents a larger surface to the pressure. If the material for making the roads is gravel, the common way is to lay it as it comes from the pit, excepting the upper foot, or 18 inches or so, which is screened; but if whin or other stone is to be used, the size of the pieces into which it is broken should decrease as we approach the surface, the superficial coating not exceeding a cube from 1 inch to 1½ inch. If the foundation is bad, breaking the bottom stone into small pieces is expensive and injurious, upon the principle I have above described, and also for the same reason that an arch formed of whole bricks or of deep stones is to be preferred to one of the same materials broken into smaller pieces, for in some counties the materials will admit of the foundation of the road being considered as of the nature of a flat arch, as well as of being supported by the strata directly under it: but the error in laying the stone in large pieces upon the surface is more common and more injurious. In all cases, whether the material is gravel or hard stone, the interstices between the pieces should be filled up solid with smaller pieces, and the finishing made by a thin covering of very small pieces, or road-sand or rubbish, for those interstices must be filled up before the road becomes solid, either in this way or by a portion of the materials of the road being ground down, which last mode occasions a waste of the material, and keeps the road unnecessarily heavy and loose. This observation applies to the repairing as well as the original making of roads, and the effect of this covering, or as it is called in the country, blinding the loose stones, is so evident, that I have often wondered to see so little attention paid to it. If the material is soft, as some limestone, this is less necessary, and the quantity ought never to be more than is just sufficient for the purpose I have described. In the original making or effectually repairing of a road, it is, I think, best that the whole of the proposed thickness be laid on at once, for the sake of the road as well as of the traveller; the materials of the road then form a more solid compact mass than when they are laid in thin strata, at different times, for the same reason that a deep arch of uniform materials is preferable to a number of separate rings. Though I state that an inclination in the longitudinal section of the road is always desirable for the purpose of clearing it of water, I am not of the opinion of those who recommend the road to be made and kept flat or level in its cross section. The variety of opinions and practice upon this point are very great; both extremes appear to me to be bad. A road much rounded is dangerous, particularly if the cross section approaches towards the segment of a circle, the slope in the case not being uniform, but increasing rapidly from the nature of the curve, as we depart from the middle or vertical line. The over rounding of roads is also injurious to them, by either confining the heavy carriages to one track in the crown of the road, or if they go upon the sides, by the great wear they produce, from their constant tendency to move down the inclined plane, owing to the angle which the surface of the road and the line of gravity of the load form with each other, and as this tendency is perpendicular to the line of draught, the labour of the horse and the wear of the carriage wheels, are both much increased by it.

It is not altogether foreign to the subject to notice here, the error of forming the inclination of the roadway upon bridges, in the direction of their length, or across the river, from a section of a curve for the whole length, rather than from two lines joined together by a curve, as I have recommended for the cross section of a road. It is to this cause that the very heavy pull is owing, which must have been noticed in just getting upon a bridge, which decreases as we advance towards the middle of the bridge, and which would not have been so much felt, had it been spread regularly over the whole length (see No. 5, in the plan.)

The disadvantages of a flat road again are, that even if it is supposed to continue so, it is bad in principle, by doing away the tendency which a road ought to have, in every direction, to clear itself of water; but as the greatest wear will always be in the middle of the road, a level or flat road will very soon be concave; the middle of the road then becomes the watercourse, and the consequence, if the road is upon level ground, is, that the water and mud lie upon it, and injure the foundation and materials; or, if otherwise, that the stones or materials of the road are washed bare, and liable to be loosened and thrown up by the wheels coming into contact with their exposed angular surfaces. Many of the roads in the country afford examples of this, particularly after heavy rains, and if the country is at all hilly.

The best form for a road, in order to avoid those evils, is,—in my opinion, to form it, and to keep it with just a sufficient rise towards the middle, to incline the water towards the sides; and in place of making the whole width the section of one curve, to form it by two straight lines, forming inclined planes, and joined by a curve towards the middle. I have prepared a section of a road in the manner I have described (No. 4.) and as the lines, excepting at the centre, are straight, the section may be made to suit almost any greater or less width, by merely extending them. The section is taken nearly from a part of a road made under my direction in the country. The dotted line drawn upon it shows the form I alluded to when speaking of the circular road that ought to be avoided. I have seen ridges formed in what I thought well formed land, much after what I would recommend for the form of a road. The object of forming the land into ridges, raised a little in the middle, is the same as that of raising the middle of a road to prevent the water from settling upon it, and what is sufficient for the ploughed land is certainly enough for a road. If the road is of good stone, four to five inches rise in ten feet is sufficient, gravel, and other inferior material, will allow a little more. In this section it may be worth while to notice the situation of the hedge and ditch, or rill on each side of the road, a more common, but I think a more dangerous and worse way, is to form the ditch close to the road, and to plant the quick upon a raised bank beyond it. I have dotted this mode also upon the section. The advantage of having the hedge next the road, consists in its greater safety to the traveller, particularly if a ditch of any considerable depth is necessary, and in the hedge being supported in its growth from the ground under the road, without drawing upon the farmer’s side of the ditch; and it is I believe, this last advantage, which has led the author of an article in the Edinburgh Farmer’s Magazine, with whom I am acquainted, to make nearly the same observations. In a length of road, made eight or ten years since, over a marsh, partly a bog, considerably under high water, where, from the level of the ground, and of the drainage, the ditches were obliged to be deep and wide, and therefore dangerous; I ordered some cuttings of willow to be stuck into the roadside of the ditch. In about two years they formed a blind to the ditch, and are now so thick and strong as to be a complete security from all danger. I may here take the liberty to say, that nothing is more injurious to roads than the permitting high hedges and plantations near them, their effect in keeping the rain suspended and dripping upon the road longer than otherwise it would, and in preventing the air and sun from drying the roads, is most destructive and very general: and as the Commissioners or principal men of the district are often the greatest offenders in this respect, the evil is one in which both the enactments and the application of them require the strictest attention and impartiality. After a road is properly made, the comfort of the traveller and the principle of economy on the part of the road-trust, both demand that it be not allowed to get much out of repair; the adage of “a stitch in time,” applies particularly to the repairing of roads, and though not universally practised, is so well known, that it is, I presume, unnecessary to state reasons, for what no one acquainted with the subject at all doubts. The best season for repairing roads is, I think, the spring or very early in the summer, when the weather is likely neither to be very wet nor dry, for both of these extremes prevent the materials from consolidating, and therefore cause a waste of them, and at the same time, either a heavy or a dusty road; but if done at the time I have recommended, the roads are left in good state for the summer, and become consolidated and hard to resist the work of the ensuing winter.

When I remarked the great improvement in many of the highways during the last twenty years, I by no means meant to say that they are not still capable of much greater, or that many of them have not been much neglected. In many districts this is notoriously the case, and when the materials are the best, the roads are frequently the worst. There is no road round London upon which there is more heavy country traffic, than the first stage of the great Essex or Mile End road; and owing to the well directed attention of the chairman of the commissioners, and of their surveyor, there are few better roads any where, excepting in very wet heavy weather. Indeed I do not think it possible to do much, if any thing, in improving the superintendance and repair of that road, with the material at present in use; for the nature of which, as well as for the exclusion of air and sun by buildings, proper allowance ought to be made in judging of the state of the roads near London, and when this is done, and the great wear considered, we may find that in very many cases, there is but little cause to find fault, and much room for commendation. The traffic upon the Mile End road is however too much for a gravelled road, and the expanse for repair for the first three miles is consequently very great. The same remarks as to conduct and attention, are merited by the commissioners of other districts, and their gratuitous services entitle them to the thanks of the public; while in some parts of the kingdom, including Scotland, where the material is the very best, the roads are often in the worst condition, and the most unpleasant to travel upon. The stone is put in large pieces upon the road, without any covering or mixture of smaller material, and is left to take the chance of being broke and formed into a solid, or of tumbling loose upon the road. When a track is once formed in this stone-heap, it is not to be expected that the horses will be easily made to move out of it; and unless the thoroughfare is considerable, the road in use consists sometimes for a long period, of the two deep wheel tracks, which are always filled with water during the winter, and of the horse’s path between them, the other parts being covered with a body of loose stones, and rendered absolutely useless. These observations apply to some lengths of the most frequented highways, but are more particularly applicable to the cross roads and the parish roads. I had the opportunity of seeing the roads in the West Highlands last autumn; they are formed with judgement, and kept in good repair.

When the highways in a county are under the management of trustees, it is common to divide them, and to assign a particular length to the trustees who live near it, without employing any person in the capacity of a surveyor. When this is the case, the state of repair depends much upon the observation and attention of the trustee; and the change in the state of the road often marks out the change of superintendence. A relative of mine has given up a good deal of his time and attention to a part of the roads in Stirlingshire, of which he is one of the trustees: no professional man could, perhaps, do the business better; and the effect of this attention is very visible. Instances of the same kind are frequent, but it is not to be expected that trustees generally can both understand, and have so great a relish for serving the public, as that the detail of the repairs of roads, if imposed upon them, will be always executed with the attention they require.

The case of parish roads is still worse, where the inhabitants are, without much regard to their habits of life, obliged in their turns to serve the annual office of surveyor of the highways. If such persons mean to signalize themselves during their being in office, the first step is often to undo what their predecessor has done, or has not perfected; and the love of self and of friends determines them to make sure while they have it in their power, that some favoured roads or lanes are put into proper order. If the surveyor is, on the contrary, an unwilling officer, or if the attention to his own affairs prevents him giving his time to the duties of the office, he avoids the fine by accepting the charge, pays the bills and wages without much knowledge of their nature or accuracy, and one of the labourers becomes, in fact, the road-surveyor; but in every case of annual nominations there is this evil, that so soon as the surveyor has, by a year’s apprenticeship, begun to know something of the nature of the business, his place is filled by another, who comes in for the same time to take lessons at the expense of the parish. Thus, while many simple trades require, by law, an apprenticeship of seven years, before the person is thought qualified to practise with his own capital, the road-surveyor is supposed fit, the very hour he is named, for an office which requires at least as much understanding and experience as the average of trades, and in which he has the capital of all the parish to speculate with. For these reasons, I have always been convinced of the propriety of an intelligent accountable officer in each district, but I do not see to whom he can be responsible with so great propriety, or in other words, in whom the chief control can be so well vested, as in the gentlemen who live in the county, who are almost daily witnesses of what is doing, and are chiefly interested in keeping down the expenses, at the same time having their roads in good repair.

Whether a board of roads, appointed by parliament, meeting once every year, and forming a report of the expense and state of the roads in each county, to be presented to parliament, with such observations as present themselves, as to improvements, or otherwise, taken from general surveys made by persons appointed by them, would be useful, by exciting a spirit of emulation and attention on the part of the different trusts, every member of this honourable Committee is as able, and perhaps more able, to give a disinterested judgment than I am; for I conclude, that if surveys are to be made, engineers will think they have some chance of being selected as the most proper persons to be employed on the occasion, under the board. The state of the roads continue to improve throughout the kingdom. Every friend to his country will be pleased, if the march of this improvement can be accelerated by a moderate reform, and carried into remote corners and parishes, where it appears most to be wanted; but I much question the propriety of such a revolution as would lessen the interest, which, in their present situation, the commissioners ought to feel in the repair of their roads, and the consequence which the appointment tends to give them.

If country road-surveyors are appointed throughout the kingdom, the nomination might be with the commissioners of the county, and if friendship or local interest is supposed to operate too far, the nomination, or the examination previous to election, or the veto after it, might be with the central or other board, the members of which might be supposed not to be connected with the individual, in the same way as pilots and the masters of men of war are examined by the elder brethren of the Trinity House. And sub-surveyors or surveyors of parishes, might in the same manner be appointed, or undergo an examination by the county commissioners and county surveyor, to qualify them to be elected; for it is to be lamented, that in cases where parishes have, from the reasons I have mentioned, made the office of road-surveyors permanent, with a salary: the election being popular, has fallen, not upon the candidate who was really the best qualified, but probably upon some honest decayed tradesman, who, having proved himself unable to manage his own business, which he ought to have known the best, has thereby, and by his long residence, qualified himself for managing a public business, of which he probably knows nothing, but whether he does, or does not, rarely enters into the consideration of the majority of the voters.

In what manner do you think the extra toll for overweight ought to be regulated; whether by the weight, or by the number of horses used, without regard to the weight?—I think by the weight most certainly; unless the object is to discourage the breed of small horses, and encourage the over-loading and straining, of horses of all sizes. The number of horses is a very imperfect measure, or rather no measure at all of the injury done to the roads; for a load of three tons, drawn by one horse, injures the road as much, to say the least of it, as if two horses were used. It is not out of place to mention the extreme disproportion between the penalties for overweight, and the injuries which they are meant to compensate for, or to prevent; particularly when this over-loading is the effect of ignorance, which is almost always the case. When the tolls are in the hands of trustees, the penalty is almost always reduced; a proof that that fixed by law is exorbitant; but when the tolls are farmed, and the trustees do not reserve the power of mitigating the penalty, the poor carman has less chance of being saved perhaps from ruin.

Jovis, 1º die Aprilis, 1819.

Mr. James Dean, called in; and Examined.

What is your profession?—I am a land agent and civil engineer, and am occasionally employed to solicit bills in parliament as an agent.

Where do you reside?—I reside in London about half the year, and the other half in Devonshire.

As an engineer, have you had the means of becoming acquainted with the roads of the kingdom?—About twenty years since, I had the appointment of surveyor to the trustees of the turnpike roads from Oxford to Henley upon Thames, and from Dorchester to Abingdon, in Berkshire; since then I have been employed about several roads in Devonshire and Cornwall, and, latterly, in surveying and reporting on an extensive district of the roads in Somersetshire.

From the observations which you have made in this employment, are you able to give the Committee any information as to the best mode of improving the roads of the kingdom generally?—The first and most obvious improvement is to shorten distances; but even that must be governed by circumstances often of a local nature; a sound foundation, and the contiguity of good stone or gravel to a road, should not be overlooked in choosing a new line, or departing from an old one. In forming a new line in a level country, the transverse section should approach as near as possible to the form of the accompanying sketch No. 1, and in a hilly country to that of No. 2; in the former, the water from one half the road would be carried into a ditch on the field side, and that of the other half into a ditch between the footpath and hedge-bank. When it is necessary to form a road on the side of a hill, the ditch should be on the higher side of the road, where it will receive the water falling from the high ground, and so keep the foundation of the road dry. I have figured the breadths of a good average turnpike road on sketch No. 1, but the breadth will frequently depend upon circumstances of a local nature. Near to great towns, it would be highly advantageous if the centre of the road, for about twelve feet in width, were to be paved with hard well-squared stones, nine inches deep, and the sides made with hard rubble stones or gravel. I need scarcely mention, that in applying the materials to a new line of road, the stones should be broken into pieces of an uniform size, as near as may be; that the larger should be laid of nearly an equal depth over the whole surface of the road, and the smaller, mixed with gravel, should be placed upon them. The repairing of roads should be conducted in the same manner as far as it is practicable; but, after all, the only sure way of getting good roads is, for the trustees to employ men of education and science as their surveyors. In a few instances, where this has been done, the best consequences have resulted, and in no case is if more conspicuous than in the neighbourhood of Bristol, where Mr. MᶜAdam is the surveyor.

Will not a consequent impediment arise to the employment of men of education and of superior ability as surveyors, from the smallness of the funds upon small trusts or districts?—For that reason, I would recommend the consolidation of the several trusts, in each county, into one general trust, under the authority of one general act of parliament, leaving the adoption, however, of the acts to the discretion of the several trusts respectively in each county, making it compulsory only on the minority, at the expiration of a time to be limited, when a majority in amount of toll shall call for its adoption, and after insertion in the provincial papers and London Gazette.

Supposing parliament to adopt your suggestion as to the passing of such an act, and supposing that afterwards the trusts of none of the counties should adopt it as a general trust, would there be any objection to the act being so framed as to admit of adoption by such of the trusts as might prefer it to incurring the expense of a renewal of their then local acts?—I do not think there would be any well founded objection to an act made capable of being so applied; and I am of opinion, that the making it optional on trustees to adopt it or not, would render the measure extremely popular, and in the end be highly beneficial to the country.

Have you not lately prepared a bill for the trustees of an extensive trust in Somersetshire, including in it nearly all the improvements which you would recommend to be introduced into a general turnpike act?—I have prepared such a bill; and it was intended that the same should have been brought before parliament in the present session, but the clerk to the trustees having omitted to put the notice required by the standing orders of parliament upon the sessions-house door, at the Michaelmas sessions, the trustees resolved to defer presenting their petition until the next session.

In what respect does the bill which you have prepared differ from the generality of local turnpike acts?—Many of the clauses of the bill are not so remarkable for originality, as their combination is calculated to produce extensive benefit to the country, by conferring larger powers than have heretofore been given to any one body of trustees; among others, it empowers the trustees to appoint committees, and make bye-laws; it binds them to provide a fund for buying up outstanding securities; and to pay off the further sums proposed to be raised under the new act, within the term of the act; the tolls on wheel carriages are made referrible to the breadth of the fellies, and description of wheel, and to the weight drawn, rather than to the number of horses, drawing, and are founded on a statement which I had the honour of delivering to a Committee of the House of Commons in 1809. The standing orders of parliament require that on or before the 30th of September next, preceding any application to parliament for any Turnpike Act, a plan &c. of the roads proposed to be made or altered, shall be deposited with the clerk of the peace. It often happens, that in the Committee alterations are made in the proposed line, when the plan deposited becomes mere waste paper; the seventy sixth clause of this bill provides for the depositing of a plan, &c. last determined upon, with the clerk of the peace, signed by the Speaker, and being an authentic document can be referred to with safety. The bill also provides for the making of commodious footpaths by the sides of the roads. And as the paving, cleansing, lighting, watching, &c. of the liberty or borough of * * * * is placed in the trustees of the roads, the trustees are empowered to rate the inhabitants, and are also empowered to light the streets, &c. with gas, and to allow gas to be taken from their mains for the lighting of private dwellings, manufactories, &c.; so that in all probability the latter indulgence may pay the greater part, if not the whole, of the expense of lighting the public lamps. The ninety-third clause empowers the trustees to pave, light and watch any town, village or place through, which the roads pass, upon application of two-thirds of the inhabitants, and is in my view extremely important.

Have you any further suggestions to offer to the Committee that would tend to the improvement of the roads, or the laws relating to them?—Upon the subject of turnpike roads, and of wheel-carriages generally, I am of opinion that such a spirit of improvement has gone forth as, with the assistance of judicious legislative enactments, will in a few years carry both to a state of very great perfection; but I cannot close these remarks without observing on the injurious effect which the large fees paid to the higher officers of both houses of parliament has upon the growing improvements of the country, by preventing a recurrence to parliament to remove obstacles which the prejudice of some will not, and the incapacity of others cannot permit. The periodical expenses of renewing turnpike acts is really enormous, when it is considered that between the fees of parliament on the one hand, and a two month’s residence in London of the country solicitor, to manage the business, besides a parliamentary agent in town to assist him, four or five hundred pounds are soon swallowed up; but I also feel it right to suggest, that if parliament would allow affidavits to be made before two magistrates in the county, of the notices directed by the standing orders of parliament, having been duly given, of plans and of books of reference being lodged with the clerk of the peace, and of the names of the persons assenting to, dissenting from, or being neuter in respect of any proposed new road, the solicitor need not remain in town more than three days, and the expenses, except in cases of opposition, need not exceed 200l.

Would you, as a parliamentary agent, undertake to prepare and conduct an ordinary road bill through parliament for 200l., to include all expenses, where there is no opposition?—I would undertake any number at that sum, provided the proofs before mentioned were admitted to be made by affidavit in the county, in like manner as the proofs are now given to facilitate the passing of inclosure bills.

Jovis, 6º die Maii, 1819.

Thomas Telford, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are, I believe, a civil engineer?

Yes, I am.

The roads which have been formed by direction of the Parliamentary Commissioners for the Holyhead road, and under your management, having been described to this Committee as being very perfect, will you have the goodness to state your opinion as to the present condition of the different turnpike roads of the kingdom, and what improvements you would recommend in their direction and management. In the first place, state to the Committee in what respect you consider the roads of the kingdom at present to be defective, either in their formation or management?—

With regard to the roads in England and Wales, they are in general very defective, both as to their direction and inclinations, they are frequently carried over hills, which might be avoided by passing along the adjacent valleys; at present the inclinations are inconveniently steep, and long continued. I might instance many principal lines, over which I have had frequent occasion to travel: I shall select the great road from Holyhead, through North Wales to Shrewsbury; and from thence by Birmingham and Coventry to London. On the Welsh portion of it, those parts which have been improved under the direction of the Parliamentary Commissioners for the Holyhead road, the inclinations were formerly (in many instances) as much as one in six, seven, eight, nine, and ten, the width at the same time frequently not exceeding twelve feet, without protection on the lower side, and the roadway itself of improper construction. The improvements which have lately been made in North Wales, I beg leave to submit as models for roads through hilly countries, although these improvements have been made through the most difficult and precipitous district of that country, the longitudinal inclinations are in general less than one in thirty; in one instance, for a considerable distance, there was no avoiding one in twenty-two, and in another, for about two hundred yards, one in seventeen; but in these two cases, the surface of the roadway being made peculiarly smooth and hard, no inconvenience is experienced by wheeled carriages. On flat ground, the breadth of the roadway is thirty-two feet, where there is side cutting not exceeding three feet, the breadth is twenty-eight, and along any steep ground and precipices, it is twenty-two, all clear within the fences; the sides are protected by stone walls, breast and retaining walls and parapets; great pains have been bestowed on the cross drains, also the draining the ground, and likewise in constructing firm and substantial foundations for the metalled part of the roadway. From Shrewsbury upwards, the road at present is encumbered with many hills, all of which might be avoided, or much improved. There is a very long one between Shrewsbury and Heygate, several between that point and Shiffnal, two between Shiffnal and Wolverhampton, one between Wolverhampton and Birmingham, viz. at Wednesbury, &c. Maiden Hill, between Birmingham and Coventry; Braunston Hill, between Dunchurch and Daventry; a continued succession of hills between Daventry and Towcester; afterwards the well-known Brickhill and Hockliffe hills, besides the very circuitous and imperfect road between South Mims and Barnet.

Another instance I would beg leave to mention to the Committee, is the road between the towns of Shrewsbury and Worcester, on the way to Bath, which consists of nearly a succession of very high and inconveniently steep hills, although very easy inclinations might be obtained by passing along the side of the river Severn.

I have mentioned these two instances as examples of the present imperfections of main roads, and it is quite evident they might all be readily avoided by lines of new road, easily to be accomplished. These, I presume, the Committee will admit are sufficient to show the present state of many other roads in the kingdom, they not having been selected as more particularly defective than others.

The shape, or cross sections and drainage of the roads, are quite as defective as the general direction and inclinations; there has been no attention paid to constructing a good and solid foundation for the roadway; the materials, whether of gravel or stones, have seldom been sufficiently selected and arranged; and they lie so promiscuously upon the road as to render it inconvenient to travel upon, and promote its speedy destruction. The shape of the road, or cross section of the surface, is frequently hollow in the middle; the sides encumbered with great banks of mud, which have accumulated sometimes to the height of six, seven and eight feet; these prevent the water from falling into the side-drains; they also throw a considerable shade upon the road itself, and are gross and unpardonable nuisances. The materials, instead of being cleansed of the mud and soil with which they are mixed in their native state, are laid promiscuously upon the road; this, in the first instance, creates an unnecessary expense of carriage to the road, and afterwards nearly as much in removing it, besides inconvenience and obstruction to travelling; the materials should therefore be cleansed on the spot where they are procured, from every particle of earth, by screening, or if necessary, even by washing; some additional expense might in the first instance be incurred by these operations, but it would be found by much the most economical and advantageous mode in the end. In all cases, materials in their native state are composed of particles and pieces of different sizes, it is most important that those should be separated, and that the largest size should be reduced to not more than six or eight ounces in weight, and laid in the bottom part of the road; those that are under that weight or size may be laid on the top or surface of the road; the surface itself should be made with a very gentle curve in its cross section, just sufficient to permit the water to pass from the centre towards the sides of the road, the declivity may increase towards the sides, and the general section form a very flat ellipsis, so that the side, at the time, should (upon a road of about thirty feet in width) be nine inches below the surface in the middle. Connected with the cross section are the side drains which are to receive the water, and which drains, in every instance, I particularly recommend to be on the field side of the fence, with apertures in that fence for the water to pass from the sides of the road into them.

The fences themselves on each side form a very material and important subject, with regard to the perfection of roads; they should in no instance be more than five feet in height above the centre of the road, and all trees which stand within twenty yards from the centre of it ought to be removed. I am sure that twenty per cent. of the expense of improving and repairing roads is incurred by the improper state of the fences and trees along the sides of it, on the sunny side more particularly; this must be evident to any person who will notice the state of a road which is much shaded by high fences and trees, compared to the other parts of the road which are exposed to the sun and air. My observations, with regard to fences and trees, apply when the road is on the same level as the adjacent fields; but in many cases, on the most frequented roads of England, more stuff has been removed from time to time than was put on; the surface of the road is consequently sunk into a trough or channel from three to six feet below the surface of the fields on each side; here all attempts at drainage, or even common repairs, seem to be quite out of the question; and by much the most judicious and economical mode will be to remove the whole road into the field which is on the sunny side of it. In cases where a road is made upon ground where there are many springs, it is absolutely necessary to make a number of under and cross drains to collect the water and conduct it into the aforesaid side-drains, which I have recommended to be made on the field side of the fences.

In constructing the bottom part of a road, (which would, of course, be made of an elliptical form) if it is upon clay, or other elastic substance, which would retain water, I would recommend to cover the whole bottom of the road with vegetable soil, in cases where the natural shape of the ground admits; I would not remove the original surface, and where there are inequalities I would fill them up with vegetable soil, so as to cut off all connexion with clay. Where gravel is the material to complete the road with, I have already mentioned, that it ought to be completely cleansed of every particle of clay or earthy substance, and its different sizes ought to be selected and arranged by means of riddling or washing; in the use of the riddle, the particles of earth or clay adhere so much to the stones that it frequently requires to be exposed to the sun, air, and frost, for several months, and then riddled over again. In this gravel, the stones are of different sizes and different shapes; all those that are round ought to be broken with a small hammer, and in mentioning hammers, I beg leave to draw the attention of the Committee to their weight, shape and manner of using, which is of much more importance than any one can conceive who has not had much experience in road-making; the difference in managing this operation being not less than ten per cent. and is, besides, of equal importance towards the perfection of the road; the size and weight of the hammer I would apportion to the size and weight of the stones, and the stones should be broken upon the heap, not on the ground; it must be evident that using round stones will be the means of deranging the position of those near them, and of grinding them to pieces.

Are you of opinion that the gravel which is found in the pits in the neighbourhood of London is calculated for making roads capable of bearing the heavy weights which the great traffic round London occasions to be used upon them?—I am of opinion that the materials in the whole valley or plain around London being entirely silicious, or flints, and easily ground, to dust, are very improper. This must be evident to every person who travels near London in any direction.

Are you of opinion that it would be advisable or practicable to procure from any particular part of the country, either by canal, or by river conveyance, better materials, so as to form perfect roads, without the necessity of paving them?—That those materials could be procured both by the canals; and by sea is evident; but I am satisfied that the most economical and preferable mode would be by means of paving.

Do you consider that it would be advisable to pave the whole of the roads, or that the paving of the centre or sides, as has been recommended by some witnesses, would be sufficient?—I apprehend that the paving a proper width in the centre would be quite sufficient, gravel might be proper enough for the sides, upon the same principle that we, in all new roads which are constructed, make use of metalling, or broken stones on the middle part of the road, for about from sixteen to eighteen or twenty feet in breadth, and leave the sides gravelled and kept dry; this, in general, forms a very perfect road.

Is there any principle which you would think proper to recommend in regard to the shape of the stones to be used in paving roads?—I am of opinion that the general shape of the stones at present used for paving, and the modes of distributing them are very imperfect, the lower part of the stones being of a triangular wedge-like shape, which, instead of enabling them to resist the weights which come upon them; easily penetrate into the substratum; the stones are also broken of an unequal size. The remedies for these defects are obvious, they should be as nearly as possible of a cubical form, its lower bed having an equal surface with its upper face; they should be selected as nearly as possible of an equal size, and they should never be of great length on the face.

In quarrying and preparing the stones would there be any additional expense in forming them into the cubical shape now recommended?—There would certainly be an additional expense in the preparation, because there would be more work required in the dressing, and many stones must be rejected which are now used; but I think the additional expense would be very well bestowed.

Are you of opinion that great injury is done to turnpike roads by the heavy weights carried in waggons upon them?—I am.

Are you of opinion that any breadth of wheels for those waggons will justify the present exemption from tolls?—It certainly ought not.

In what manner would you recommend that the tolls should be apportioned to the weights carried by waggons on those roads?—I am of opinion that the most advisable mode would be to apportion the tolls to the weight carried on each wheel, without reference to the breadth, provided it is not allowed to be less than four inches.

For the purpose of assessing the tolls in this instance would it not be necessary that the waggon should be weighed at every turnpike gate?—There ought to be a power to do it, but there might be a check by means of toll tickets, similar to what is done upon navigable canals.

With a view of establishing good roads generally throughout the kingdom, and of keeping them in repair upon the most economical plan, what limitation would you propose as to the actual weight each carriage should be allowed to carry?—I should think it should never exceed four tons, which should be a ton upon each wheel; when it exceeds that weight the best materials which can be procured for road-making must be deranged and ground to pieces.

Martis, 11º die Maii, 1819.

Mr. Robert Perry, called in; and Examined.

You hold a situation in the Post-office?—Yes, under Mr. Johnson, inspector of the mails in the Post-office.

Since the examination of Mr. Johnson before this Committee, has the Post-office received any further report on the state of any of the roads near the Metropolis?—Yes; one that is between Staines and Bagshot, which I have brought with me.

[Delivered in, and read:]

“State of the Turnpike Road between Staines and Bagshot, May 4th, 1819.

From Staines Bridge to Egham the form of the road has been considerably altered for the better, with plenty of watercourses and arched drains: through Egham town the dirt has been entirely removed, and a very plentiful supply of well-sifted gravel laid on, which will in a short time make a good hard road. The hill likewise has recently been covered with a thick coat of good stones, which will require a little time to cement; from thence the road is greatly improved; the sides are pared down, and kept particularly clean.

At Virginia Water every thing appears to have been done to the hills, that the time and sandy nature of the soil would permit; it is now in a good form, and level.

From Virginia Water Hill, by Broom Hill Hut, the road has been well scraped, the watercourses opened, and the sides kept clean, and is in a very good state all the way to Bagshot.

(Signed) Samuel Maddocks.”