Remarks on the Present System of Road Making / With Observations, Deduced from Practice and Experience, With a View to a Revision of the Existing Laws, and the Introduction of Improvement in the Method of Making, Repairing, and Preserving Roads, and Defending the Road Funds from Misapplication. Seventh Edition, Carefully Revised, With an Appendix, and Report from the Select Committee of the House of Commons, June 1823, with Extracts from the Evidence

by John Loudon McAdam

WITNESSES:

Martis, 2º die Martii, 1819:
Charles Johnson, Esq.	p. [81]
Mr. William Waterhouse	[84]
Mr. William Horne	[88]
Mr. John Eames	[92]
Veneris, 21º die Maij:
Mr. George Botham	[94]
Jovis, 4º die Martij:
John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq.	[96]
Martis, 9º die Martij:
John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq.	[117]
Jovis, 11º die Martij:
John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq.	[134]
James McAdam, Esq.	[136]
Col. Charles Brown	[144]
Ezekiel Harman, Esq.	[145]
Thomas Bridgeman, Esq.	[146]
John Martin Cripps, Esq.	ibid.
W. Dowdeswell, Esq.	[148]
Martis, 23º die Martij:
Mr. Benjamin Farey	[150]
John Farey, Esq.	[154]
Jovis, 25º die Martij:
John Farey, Esq.	[157]
James Walker, Esq.	[165]
Jovis, 1º die Aprilis:
Mr. James Dean	[182]
Jovis, 6º die Maij:
Thomas Telford, Esq.	[187]
Martis, 11º die Maij:
Mr. Robert Perry	[195]
Abstract of Return of Turnpike Roads round London	[196]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Martis, 2º die Martij, 1819.
EDWARD PROTHEROE, ESQUIRE,
In the Chair.

Charles Johnson, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are surveyor and superintendent of mail coaches under the Post Master General?—Yes.

How long have you held that office?—Not twelve months yet.

Has your attention been directed, in the execution of the duties of that office, to the state of the turnpike roads throughout the kingdom?—I have given a general attention to the subject, and I have had occasion, of course, to give particular attention to it, when complaints have been made of loss of time.

In what state of repair do you consider the turnpike roads to be, generally throughout the kingdom?—I certainly (as far as I have had an opportunity of inspecting them) consider, that almost all the roads might be improved; but there are very few instances in which I should have thought it necessary to advise the Post Master General to interfere, except in the more immediate neighbourhood of London.

It is not the practice of the Post-office to interfere in the mode you mention, by indictment, unless the evil has arisen to a very great pitch?—Not until it has arisen to a very considerable evil.

Do you consider that the general defective state of the road arises from any local disadvantages, or from mismanagement in regard to the funds, or the application of materials?—That question involves so many considerations, that I hardly know how to give an answer to it; but I think, that in general one may observe a great want of that skill in forming the road and keeping it in repair, which is very obvious in some parts of the country.

Do you consider that the defects you have mentioned in the neighbourhood of London, arise from any local disadvantages, or from the roads been worse managed?—It is generally understood that in the neighbourhood of London they have not so good materials to repair the roads with, being chiefly gravel; but I think I may say, that there is certainly a want of attention and of care.

Have you known instances in the neighbourhood of London where better roads have been obtained by superior management?—In the early part of the winter we were under such great difficulties with respect to the Exeter mail coach, that I was under the necessity of applying to the Egham trust. It was at that time reported to me, that the whole town of Egham had been covered with gravel unsifted, eight or nine inches deep from side to side; the consequence of that was, that the mail coach lost ten, fifteen, or twenty minutes every night. We were given afterwards to understand that the commissioners had put that particular road under the care of Mr. MᶜAdam, and at this time I have no sort of occasion whatever to complain of it.

Generally speaking, do you consider that the mails are detained more by the bad state of the roads in the neighbourhood of London than elsewhere?—They certainly have more difficulty in passing to and from London for the first fifty or sixty miles, than in almost any other part of the country. It is in the nights we have the heaviest weights, and therefore it is very desirable that the roads near town should be rather better, than worse than others.

Has your attention been particularly directed to the state of the roads in other parts of the kingdom lately?—I travelled a considerable distance last autumn in the north of England. Certainly I considered the roads that I passed over there, to be very superior in general to what they are in the first hundred miles from the metropolis. Subsequently to that, I have had occasion to travel throughout North Wales, and I gave particular attention to the Holyhead line of road.

By what road?—By Coventry. The roads which are found in North Wales are remarkably good, and in my humble opinion, show great science in the formation of them. The new roads I mean. The materials in that country are of course very good. On this side of Birmingham, which is also the road to Liverpool, there is great occasion to complain, particularly from Dunchurch to Daventry. At this time that road is in a very neglected state, very heavy, narrow, and blocked up by banks of drift. I have had occasion to apply to that trust, but I do not learn that any thing has been done.

Have you found the system of indictment afford any effectual remedy for the evils which you have had cause to observe in that way?—I think we have. But there have been very few indictments preferred for some years past; the postmaster general not thinking it right to press upon the districts during the season of agricultural distress. I should say, we do not consider that any reason, at present, for abstaining.

Have you experienced from the commissioners, a disposition, generally, to attend to such complaints as you have found occasion to make?—Such applications as I have had occasion to make appear to have been very well received; but I cannot say, that in many instances the roads have been much improved. I will add to this answer, that I lately passed over the road from Oxford through Henley to London; and although that is one of the roads complained much of, it is certainly, at this time, in a very improper state.

In such cases do you not follow up your measures by stronger proceedings, by indictment?—I think that in this case it would be necessary to renew our applications, and perhaps to proceed by indictment; but I have considered it prudent not to interfere, chiefly in contemplation of the proceedings of this Committee.

From what you have seen of the new roads in Wales, do you not conceive that nearly all the turnpike roads in England are capable of very considerable improvement, by an application of equal skill in the disposition of the materials employed upon them?—I certainly do.

Mr. William Waterhouse, called in; and Examined.

You keep the Swan-with-two-Necks in Lad-lane?—I belong to the premises; I don’t keep the house; I am the coachmaster.

You are the proprietor of many mail and other coaches?—I am.

As the proprietor of mail and stage coaches, has your attention been directed to the state of the roads over which they travel?—Yes, it has.

Inform the Committee whether you think the roads are in such a state of repair as they might be, under proper management, with the advantages they possess?—Taking them generally, I think they are not.

Do you consider that the amount of the tolls at present received would be sufficient to place them in a state of good repair, under proper management?—From what information I have been able to obtain of the sums which the gates are let for upon several trusts, it is my opinion that the money so received is quite sufficient to put them in a very good state. For instance, there is one trust, which is called the Daventry trust, leading from Old Stratford to Dunchurch; their tolls, I understand, produce more than 100l. a mile per annum. Very little improvement has been made in that trust; and the roads are very unsafe, and in a bad condition altogether.

Do you consider that that arises from want of proper materials, or want of proper skill in making use of them?—From both. The materials that they have in that neighbourhood, in my opinion, are not good; and the people that they employ upon the roads are not equal to the task, and therefore they are very much neglected. The surveyors and the men that work under them are insufficient.

Do you know of any instances where similar disadvantages have been surmounted by proper skill and ingenuity?—I believe I can state that upon one particular trust that has been the case. I believe they call it the Hockliffe trust. It is but a short distance, but very great improvements have been made upon it. The great improvements that have been made there, I am informed by several of the commissioners, have been done through their skilful and attentive surveyors. They have improved that trust very much indeed. I believe I can mention another road out of London that has been much improved, I mean the Essex road, (their surveyor being a clever man, and competent to understand his business,) between Whitechapel church and Brentwood.

Are there any particular defects in the management of the roads generally, which you think might be remedied, that you can point out to the Committee?—In the first place, there may be great improvements by the proper formation of the roads. I know, in some places, particularly from here down to Colney, where there is a clayey bottom, and upon that line of road there are a great many land springs; those springs frequently work up through the gravel, and injure the road very materially. When that is the case I consider that they should under-drain the road, and take away these land springs, which would be the means of having the roads firm and hard, much harder than they are now.

Is it not a common defect to place the gravel on the road without being sufficiently sifted or washed?—Very much so.

Do you not consider it as a bad system, likewise, to place the gravel so much in the centre of the road, thereby rendering it of too great convexity?—Yes, certainly. I think it is laid generally too thick and too high in the middle. There is no necessity for the roads being rounded so much.

Have you known any accidents to have arisen from the steepness of the road?—Yes; several accidents with my coaches, as well as those of other people, in consequence of the road being laid so very high in the middle.

Is not that shape of the road likewise attended with a disadvantage in the draft of the carriage?—I consider it so, inasmuch as it flings the weight too much on one side.

Is not a great loss sustained by the proprietors of stage coaches, in consequence of the badness of the roads, in the wearing out of their horses?—Yes; particularly so the first fifty or sixty miles from London.

With regard to the performance of time by the mail coaches, do you find that you labour under greater difficulty on the roads near London, than on those at a greater distance from town?—I am certain we do. It requires a greater quantity of horses to perform the duty, and, in my opinion, it requires ten horses to perform the same number of miles for the first fifty out of London, that might be done by eight, with the same speed, beyond that distance.

Is there any difference in the value of the horses used near town and at a distance from it?—I can buy horses at 15l. a piece that will perform the duty, at a distance from London, equal to those that we are obliged to give 30l. a piece for, on the average, for the work near town.

Are you in the habit of working coaches to a greater than fifty miles from London?—Not at this time; I have worked coaches as far as one hundred miles distance from London, and I always found there that eight horses would perform as many miles as ten, the first fifty miles out of London.

Have not the tolls very much increased of late years under new acts of parliament?—It is my opinion that the tolls generally have doubled within these last fifteen years.

Have the roads improved in any degree in the same proportion?—No, they have not.

Have you calculated the average rate per mile which a coach with four horses pays for toll?—I have: It is my opinion that the average amount throughout the kingdom is 3½d. per mile; it was above 3d. when I took them above twelve months ago.

Do you find that the horses wear out in a much shorter space of time, in working coaches within the first fifty miles from London, than they do lower down?—Yes they do very much. We calculate that our stock of horses, employed in working the first fifty miles out of London, will not last more than four years; in the country, at a greater distance, I believe they calculate that their stock, on an average, will last six years.

Are you not frequently obliged to put six horses to your coaches, on the roads from London?—Sometimes that is the case; we do work with six horses where the roads are bad and heavy. I may say, from the knowledge I have of one particular road, namely, from London to Birmingham, it requires twelve horses to perform the same number of miles as eight horses will do between Birmingham and Holyhead.

How many coach-horses do you keep?—About four hundred.

Are you acquainted with the new roads in North Wales, made by Mr. Telford?—Yes, I am.

Do you think that three of your horses would draw the Holyhead mail as easily on those roads as four of them do the same coach on any part of the road from London to Dunchurch?—I have no doubt about it.

Does that arise from the construction of the road, or nature of the materials, or both?—Both. The construction of the new road is extraordinarily good, and the materials also are very good.

Can you state what particular construction those roads are of?—They are laid in a form sufficiently round to wash themselves, if there is a shower of rain that comes upon them. They are not very high; and their excellence consists in the smallness of the convexity. They are in the best form I have ever seen roads made.

Mr. William Horne, called in; and Examined.

You keep the Golden Cross Inn, Charing Cross?—Yes.

You are the proprietor of many mail and stage coaches?—I am.

Your attention of course has been directed to the state of the roads over which they travel?—It has.

Can you inform the Committee in what state the roads generally are, in point of goodness?—I think in general they have been better for the last seven years than formerly, though they are now bad. They are generally bad, and might be very much improved.

Can you state to the Committee any particular instances of improvement that have taken place within your own knowledge?—Yes; one between London and Hounslow, which must be known to every body to have been very bad; that road has been made good, which was extremely bad before.

Do you consider that the application of the materials upon that road is at present good?—Yes. It is the better construction of the road, together with the different materials from what they used formerly, which have been the means of making that road better. They have brought chalk and flints from Kent by the canal, and have got them at as small an expense as gravel; and these have formed a hard well-bound road, which was formerly bad.

Upon what other roads do your coaches travel?—I will mention one which is precisely the contrary, the Uxbridge road.

Gravel is usually employed on that?—Solely gravely and the road is very flat. It is made lower than the fields, which draws the water upon it, and therefore it cannot be drawn off from it. That is the chief cause of the road being so bad.

Is it not the practice upon that road to pile up the scrapings or drift by the side of the road?—It is.

Within your experience, do you consider that the goodness of the roads is at all in proportion to the local advantages or disadvantages; or have you found that the skill and experience of the surveyors employed upon them have effected particular improvements?—They chiefly depend upon having good surveyors. The Dover road will show that more than any other road I know of. I can remember that within these seven years, what was then called “The Sun in the Sands” has been made a very good road. That road was all loose and sandy: they have drained it, and it is now a very good road.

Can you state under whose superintendence that road is placed?—Mr. Collis’s. He is now employed on the Brighton road, effecting the same sort of improvement; reducing hills, and making the road good.

Do you find that the roads on which your coaches travel, are much worse in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts?—I find them worse for coaches near London, but it may be attributed partly to the greater quantity of travelling near London to what there is in the country.

Are the horses that you employ in the stages near London of superior value to those that are employed at a greater distance?—It differs according to the carriage. I think with the stage coaches, the horses out of London are considerably more in value than those employed at a greater distance from London; and as to mail coaches, vice versa. In the country, the day stock of the coaches is very good, but in the night they work them very badly.

Do you find that your horses that are employed in the stages near London, wear out sooner than those at a greater distance?—Much sooner, I should think. I employ about four hundred horses myself, and I am sure I buy one hundred and fifty a year to support the number, and keep the stock in order. I consider that my stock wears out fully in three years.

How much longer on an average, will horses last at a distance from town?—I should think double the time: for these reasons; first, the work is lighter, and next, the food is better; besides which, the lodging of them is better; the stables are airy and more healthy; they have not so often diseases in the country as we have in London.

Are you in the habit of working coaches to any great distance from London?—I work them half way to Bristol; with Mr. Pickwick of Bath, I work to Newbury.

Do you know whether the horses that are employed still lower down upon that road, are considered to have lighter or heavier work?—I should not keep larger horses for that work myself; I should keep short-legged horses, because of the hills.

Which are of less value?—Yes.

Speaking generally, if the same skill and management that you have mentioned in particular districts were generally employed, do you not think that the roads of England and Wales might be put into a very perfect state of repair?—I think, that with better direction as to management, they might be put into a much better state of repair, at the same cost, than they now are. There is a road, called the North-east Road (the way that the Edinburgh mail comes,) which is much improved lately, and without any great expense.

Under whose management is that road?—Of a Mr. Clay. It has been done by rolling the road, and breaking the gravel to a certain size, not putting it on too large or too small; and taking care to turn the road well. If the road is not turned well, it never will be good.

This roller is a late invention, is it not?—It is. It impresses the gravel, or whatever the material is, into the ground, before the road is scraped; then they proceed to scrape it and take the slush off; this rolls down the ruts as well.

And from your experience, you have every reason to believe that it is of great advantage to the road?—I have worked the Tyburn road, and the White Cross roads, which were as bad as the Tyburn till this practice has been introduced.

Do you know any thing of the Reading road, which Mr. MᶜAdam has had the superintendence of?—It is a very fair road; it is the best piece of road in that direction.

Can you inform the Committee the weights you are accustomed to carry upon the different descriptions of carriages, mail coaches, post coaches, and heavy coaches?—The post coach loaded is 38 cwt. weight; it is never more than two tons. The mail coach also is not more than two tons, I should think. As to heavy coaches, I only work two of that description out of the 40 coaches that are in my own yard; they are so little used, that they don’t generally weigh more than the post coach; they don’t carry so much luggage.

What is the weight of the heavy coach?—Not more than the post, because they don’t carry so much luggage as some of the post coaches. I reckon 12 passengers one ton, coach one ton, and luggage half a ton.

Have you known of any accidents to your coaches arising from the great convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I have had accidents, and they have sometimes been attributed to the horses shying, and plunging the coach on one side, so as to cause it to overturn, from the great roundness of the road.

Mr. John Eames, called in; and Examined.

You keep the White Horse, Fetter-lane, and are the proprietor of the Angel Inn, St. Clement’s?—Yes.

You are the proprietor of several mail and stage coaches?—Yes.

How many horses do you keep?—About three hundred.

What are the principal roads you are in the habit of working from London?—We work the Canterbury, the Cambridge, the Dover, the Norwich, the Portsmouth, and some others.

Do you find that you sustain much inconvenience from the state of the roads over which you travel?—Yes. As to inconvenience, I find much more in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts.

How long do you find that your horses upon an average last, that are employed in the first stages from London?—My horses, upon an average, don’t last above three years in the fast coaches.

Including the mails?—Yes.

And those horses in the neighbourhood of London, are of greater value than those employed at a distance?—They are.

Upon an average, how long do the horses last that are employed in the more distant parts?—They last as long again.

Do you attribute that in a great degree to the badness of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I attribute it to the distress the horse receives from the badness of the roads near town; but I attribute it also in a great degree to the meeting of different carriages, and crossing the road, which makes it more laborious to the horse, though he does not appear to go so many miles.

Do you not consider that that particular evil is occasioned in a great degree by the convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London, the materials being generally heaped up in the middle?—I do; it “tears their hearts out,” as the coachmen express it. The roads are inconvenient from the quantity and quality of the gravel heaped in the middle.

Have you known any instances in which a different system has been pursued, and the roads greatly improved, in the neighbourhood of London?—The road from London to Cranford Bridge has been improved of late, and from London to Hounslow more particularly, in consequence of the pavement in the crown of the road, which has done away with the gravelling, or shingle rather.

Is not the gravel upon that road generally employed without sifting or washing?—It is half clay.

Have you known instances in which this inconvenience has been remedied by superior skill and experience in the surveyor of the roads?—Yes; in the same line of road that Mr. Horne referred to; in the Kent road particularly.

If that same skill was employed in the application of materials to the other roads, do you not think that they might be brought generally to the same state of improvement?—I have no doubt of it; there is no question about it. The Surrey road has been improved on the same principle.

What do you call the Surrey road?—From London to Guildford.

Do you know under whose management that is?—I don’t know now; a person named Baker had the management of it.

Was it under him it was improved?—Yes.

How many miles of road does that consist of?—Thirty miles.

And it is very much improved?—Yes.

By what means?—The materials are harder than the gravel. He brings the rag flints and breaks them, but in a different manner from other parts of the road. He has improved it so much, that it does not look the same road at all; I can go now sixteen miles better than I could twelve before.

Do you consider that the horses which travel these roads that have been improved, last longer than formerly?—Yes.

You need hardly be asked whether these improvements enable you to carry passengers at a lower rate than before?—Of course; it is the expense of the stock that is the great thing.

If the roads were generally improved, travelling would be cheaper?—Of course.

Veneris, 21º die Maii, 1819.

Mr. George Botham, called in; and Examined.

You keep the George Inn, at Newbury?—I do.

Are you a proprietor of mail and other coaches?—Yes.

To a considerable extent?—Yes, and have been for some time.

How many horses have you?—More than a hundred.

Your attention has of course been directed to the state of the road between Newbury and London?—Yes.

State any improvement that has taken place in that road?—There is a very great improvement between Marlborough and Twyford.

Under whose directions?—Mr. MᶜAdam.

In what state was that road before?—It was in a very bad state, and I mentioned it to lord Aylesbury, and he applied to get the materials, and offered to give up any quantity of his land for the widening of the road, which he has done.

In point of fact the road has been widened?—Much widened and much improved.

Can you state what improvement it would make in the draught of the carriages?—Not exactly, but I consider it a very great one.

You cannot state any proportion of the labour of horses in drawing a carriage?—No, not particularly so; I did not expect to be asked, but it is not very material.

In what state is that road, compared with the road from Twyford to London?—I consider the road from Twyford to be a little mended, but it is very bad at present.

Do you think by the adoption of the same system the road from Twyford to London might be equally improved?—I have no doubt of it; the materials are better.

Which of course would make a great difference in the ease of working your coaches?—Yes; I should think we could perform the journey from Newbury to Reading in a quarter of an hour’s less time, which is seventeen miles.

Have you, as proprietor of mail coaches, had occasion to express any dissatisfaction to the Post Office, with regard to your present contracts?—Certainly, with very great reason.

Do you think that you should be enabled to continue those contracts at the present rate, if the roads are not put into a better state of repair?—That entirely depends upon the price of corn; we were very great sufferers till lately, that corn has fallen so much: or else my brother, as well as myself, intended to quit the mails, because we were losing a great deal of money.

Do you consider that the system of repairing roads, which has been adopted in that part of the road which you have described as under the superintendance of Mr. MᶜAdam, is superior to any other that you have seen adopted?—Certainly, I am sure it is, there is no question about it.

And that its general adoption would be highly beneficial to the coach proprietors, and to the public?—Most certainly.

Mr. Fromont being prevented by an accident from attending the Committee, it was resolved that the following Letter be entered on the Minutes:

Thatcham, May 1819.

Gentlemen,

I think it a duty incumbent on me to present to you my opinion respecting Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan of repairing and improving turnpike roads. From what I have noticed of his improvement on different parts of the Bath road, on which I am at present working different coaches a distance of above 500 miles per day, I think his plan altogether, i. e. first of screening and cleansing the gravel, and breaking the stones; secondly, of preparing the road to receive it; and thirdly, of laying it on the road, is the best and safest method I have ever seen in the course of fifty years experience in the coach and waggon business. I have formerly had several accidents happen from the gravel being laid too thick and very high in the middle of the road; and have killed some hundreds of horses (extra) in pulling through it; and I think I may venture to say, that if Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan was adopted generally throughout the kingdom, in the course of a short time the public would be enabled to travel with much greater ease and safety, and at nearly one-third less of expense; at all events I am convinced that nearly one-third less labour is required to work a fast coach over part of the road between Reading and London, where MᶜAdam’s plan has been adopted, than there is over other parts of the road where they still continue the old plan In short, my opinion may be given in a few words; his plan, if adopted generally, will cause the traveller to find easier, safer, and more expeditious travelling, and the owners of horses a diminution of nearly one-third of the original labour.

I am, Gentlemen, with respect,

Your most obedient servant,

Edward Fromont.

Jovis, 4º die Martii, 1819.

John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq. called in; and Examined.

I believe, Mr. MᶜAdam, you reside at Bristol?—Yes, I do.

And have under your care a considerable district of the turnpike roads in that neighbourhood?—Yes, about one hundred and eighty miles of road in that neighbourhood.

How long has your attention been particularly directed to the state of the public roads of the kingdom generally, and the means of their improvement?—About twenty-five years.

Are you a professional civil engineer?—No.

Be pleased to state to the Committee the general state of the turnpike roads at the time you first directed your attention to them, about twenty years ago?—I think the state of the roads twenty years ago, was worse generally than at present, and in particular places much worse. If the Committee would indulge me, I would mention what first led me to these considerations. On my first arriving from America in the year 1783, at the time the roads were making in Scotland (their Turnpike Acts being in operation about twenty years at that time,) very many of their roads were unmade. I was then appointed a commissioner of the roads, and had occasion in that capacity to see a great deal of road-work.

Where?—In Scotland. This first led me to inquire into the general method of road-making, and the expense of it. Since that period, I have been mostly in Bristol, where I was also appointed a commissioner of the roads; the very defective state of which could not fail to attract my attention. I was induced to offer myself to the commissioners, to take charge of the roads as a surveyor, because I found it impossible for any individual commissioner to get the roads put into a situation of being, mended with any prospect of success; and no individual could incur the expense of making experiments on a great scale. The roads of Bristol were accordingly put under my direction in the month of January 1816.

That was when you were appointed surveyor?—Yes, I have travelled at various times, during the lost twenty years, to ascertain which are the best roads, and which the best means of road-making over the whole kingdom, from Inverness in Scotland to the Land’s End in Cornwall. I have obtained all the information that an unauthorized person could expect to receive. In the course of travelling through the country, I have generally found the roads in a very defective state, certainly much worse in particular parts of the country than in others; and in particular counties I have found some parts of the roads much worse than in other parts of the same county. The defects of the roads appear to me to proceed from various causes, but principally from the large use of a mixture of clay and chalk and other matters, that imbibe water, and are affected by frost. Such roads become loose in wet weather, so as to allow the wheels of carriages to displace the materials, and thereby occasion the roads to be rough and rutty. More pains, and much more expense, have been bestowed on the roads of late years, but without, in my opinion, producing any adequate effect, from want of skill in the executive department. I consider the roads in South Wales, in Monmouthshire, in Cornwall, in Devonshire, in Herefordshire, in part of Hampshire, in part of Oxfordshire, and some part of Gloucestershire, are managed with the least skill, and consequently, at the heaviest expense. The paved roads of Lancashire appear to be very unprofitable, and very expensive. I shall mention to the Committee a few roads which I think in a better condition and under a better system of management. Eastward of Bridgewater in Somersetshire, near Kendal in Westmoreland, and near North Allerton, in Yorkshire, the roads appear to be in a much better state than in other parts of the kingdom; and there is a striking difference in the moderate rate of their tolls, which I have always found most moderate where the roads are best managed. I consider the reason of the roads in those parts being in a better condition than in other places, is from greater skill and attention being paid to the preparation of the materials and the manner laying them on the roads.

Does the superiority of roads, in certain places that you have mentioned, arise from their better materials in those neighbourhoods?—No; the same material is found in many parts of the kingdom with much worse roads.

Then, in general, you impute the badness of the roads solely to the applying of the materials?—Yes.

And also to the formation of the roads?—That I consider as part of the application of the materials.

Has there prevailed of late years a general spirit of improvement, in different parts of the country, with regard to the roads?—I think there has, and particularly in the west country.

What instances have come within your own knowledge?—The roads immediately round the city of Bristol to the extent of 148 miles, round Bath to the extent of 49 miles, between Cirencester and Bath to the amount of 32 miles, the roads of nine trusts in the eastern parts of Sussex amounting to 97 miles, at Epsom in Surrey amounting to 20 miles, at Reading in Berkshire six miles, amounting in the whole to 352 miles, have been put into a very good condition; in addition to which, there are now under repair, five trusts in Wiltshire and Berkshire, amounting to 108 miles; six trusts in Middlesex, Cambridge and Huntingdon, amounting to 91 miles; six trusts in Devonshire, Buckinghamshire and Glamorganshire, amounting to 129 miles; making a total of 328 miles under repair. These are roads that have been mended, or are now mending, under directions which I have given, or which have been given by my family.

You are not particularly acquainted with the improvements taking place under the management of other persons?—Not particularly; but I have some knowledge of some of them from circumstances.

You have not taken under observation the great road to Holyhead?—No; that I understand is a new road. You asked me with respect to the spirit of improvement; I would wish to explain in what way I think that is proceeding. I have been sent for and consulted by 34 different sets of commissioners, and as many different trusts, and in 13 counties, to the extent of 637 miles, all of whom have been making improvements, and I have had many sub-surveyors instructed and sent to various parts of the country, at the request of commissioners; many surveyors also in the neighbourhood where improvements are making, have availed themselves of the opportunity of having instruction. Thus the surveyors of Southampton and that neighbourhood have attended to what is doing at Salisbury and Wilton; thus the surveyors at Kingston and Guildford have profited by the improvements at Epsom in Surrey.

On which road are the 20 miles that you mentioned at Epsom?—From Epsom to Tooting, and then across the country to Kingston. Several surveyors near Reading in Berkshire have imitated, with considerable success, the improvements on that road. Mr. Clay, who has contracted for the repair of the Kingsland road near London, engaged a young man who was in my office at Bristol, Mr. Marshal, whom he sent afterwards to Leeds in Yorkshire. It has been my study to give every facility to spread information.

Has your attention been directed to the roads in the neighbourhood of London; and can you state to the Committee whether any corresponding improvement has taken place in this district?—I think less improvement has taken place round London than in the country. On the new Surrey roads the example set by the pieces of road made at Blackfriars and Westminster bridges has induced a little amendment; the materials have been more carefully broken, and they have continued to use the hammers, rakes and other tools which were recommended to them; but the general improvement is unimportant: and I am not aware that any alteration has taken place in the system of expenditure, and the mode of being supplied with materials, or in employing more competent surveyors.

From the experience you have had in the improvements that have taken place, have you found that these have been attended generally, with an increase or diminution of expense?—In general the expense must be diminished by the improvements. The repairs of one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol, and many expensive permanent improvements and alterations, have been made in the last three years, during which a floating debt of upwards 1,400l. has been paid off, a considerable reduction of the principal debt has been made, and a balance of a considerable amount is remaining in the hands of the treasurer, applicable to further alterations, or to the payment of part of the debt, at the discretion of the commissioners.

Can you state what proportion that is?—I think the first year, 723l.

What is the amount of the whole debt?—The whole debt is 43,000l. I said a considerable reduction of the principal debt had been made, I did not use the word proportion. I can mention that the balance in the hands of the treasurer, on the last settlement of the account amounted to 2,790l. 0s. 4d. in the Bristol district, beside a considerable diminution of the debt, and beside alterations and improvements.

That applies only to one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol?—Only to the one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol. The Bristol district has been under one trust for twenty years, and in that period the debt has increased to 43,000l.

You will be kind enough to furnish the Committee, with a statement similar to that which was supplied by you to the Holyhead Committee, down to the latest period?—I will. Bristol is the only district for which I can have precise figures, I have not had the finances in my own management or direction with respect to the others. As I have only advised with respect to them, I cannot give you the items; and I must say, that my information with respect to other roads, must be much more general than with respect to this road. In Sussex, the roads in nine trusts have been mended with a considerable diminution of the former expense, and the thanks of a general meeting of the trustees of the Lewes trusts were unanimously voted to Lord Chichester “for the introduction of this system, by which the roads had been so much improved, and the country was likely to derive so much benefit.”

Have you found that a similar diminution of expense has taken place where the materials have been bad, as where they have been good?—Yes, I have.

Do you find your mode of management equally applicable where the materials are bad as where they are good, and that the same proportionable benefit arises?—I am afraid gentlemen suppose that I have some particular mode of management, which is certainly not the case, nor can by any means be the case; and in every road I have been obliged to alter the mode of management, according to the situation of the roads, and sometimes according to the finances. At Epsom in Surrey, the roads have been put into a good repair, at an expense considerably under the former annual expenditure, by which the trustees have been enabled to lower their tolls on agricultural carriages. The road between Reading and Twyford, in Berkshire, has been made solid and smooth since the beginning of July last, by persons under my directions, at an expense, including the surveyor’s salary, not exceeding fifteen pounds per week; and their former expenditure, exclusive of the surveyor’s salary, was twenty-two pounds per week. A great part of the road in the neighbourhood of Bath, which was formed upon the plan laid down in my report to the commissioners, and with the greatest success, is made with freestone, which was always supposed impossible to make a good road of; but it will make a good road. It certainly does not last so long as one made of better materials; but it is equally good whilst it does last. One of the roads out of Bristol towards Old Down has been made good, where it was a received opinion, that from the nature of the materials the road could not be made so; and the commissioners would not consent to my beginning it until the road was threatened to be indicted. It was put into my hands in October 1816, and at the Christmas following I was able to report that it was one of the best roads in England for a distance of eleven miles, at the expense of first outlay only of 600l. and it has continued so until the present.

Please to inform the Committee, what are the means, in your opinion, the most eligible to be adopted for the amelioration of the roads throughout the kingdom?—That question, I think, divides itself into two branches: The operative part, in making the roads, and the care of the finances, and the mode of their expenditure. I should imagine the operative part of preparing roads cannot be effected without procuring a more skilful set of sub-surveyors; young men, brought up to agriculture and labour must be sought, and regularly instructed. It is a business that cannot be taught from books, but can only be acquired by a laborious practice of several months, and actual work upon roads, under skilful road-makers. Young men who have been accustomed to agricultural labour are fittest to be made road-surveyors, as their occupations have given them opportunities of being acquainted with the value of labour both of men and horses. But I should greatly mislead the Committee if I did not inform them, that skill in the operative part of road-making cannot alone produce a reformation of the multitude of abuses that are practised in almost every part of the country, in the management of roads and road funds. These abuses can only be put down by officers in the situation of gentlemen, who must enjoy the confidence, and have the support of commissioners, and who must exercise a constant and vigilant inspection over the expenditure made by the sub-surveyors. They must be enabled to certify to the commissioners that the public money is judiciously and usefully, as well as honestly expended; without this control and superintendence an end cannot be put to the waste of the public money, and all the various modes that are injurious to the public interest, the amount of which would appear incredible, could it be ascertained; but which, I conscientiously believe, amount to one-eighth of the road revenue of the kingdom at large, and to a much greater proportion near London.

Do you mean the frauds amount to one-eighth?—No, not direct frauds, I call it mis-application; it must not be concealed, that the temptations with which, even a superior officer will be assailed, the facility of yielding to them, and the impunity with which transgression may be committed, require great delicacy in the selection of persons to fill the situation; and encouragement to make this a profession must be in proportion to the quality of the person required.

Do you not consider one of these mis-applications to be the injudicious use of the labour of horses, instead of that of men, women and children?—I do consider that to be a great mis-application of the labour of horses. I am afraid that gentlemen may understand, from what I said, that frauds are committed to the amount of one-eighth, but I meant no such thing; I meant the loss arising from mis-application generally. I have in general found a great deal more materials put upon the road than are necessary, and I am of opinion that is one of the chief causes of the waste of the public money.

Do you think the loss arises, in most instances, from mistake, or from any abuse in regard to the power and patronage which the situation confers?—I think it proceeds from mistakes and ignorance mostly.

Please to explain to the Committee in what way you think the labour of men, women and children, may be substituted for that of horses?—I have generally found that a much greater quantity of materials have been carted to the roads than are necessary, and therefore the increase of horse-labour has been beyond any useful purpose, and that generally the roads of the kingdom contain a supply of materials sufficient for their use for several years, if they were properly lifted and applied; this is to be entirely done by men, women, and children, men lifting the roads, and women and boys, and men past labour, breaking the stones which were lifted up.

By lifting the road, you mean turning it up with the pickaxe?—Yes; that I consider as man’s work; taking up the materials and breaking stones, I consider the work of women and children, and which indeed ought to have been done before those materials had been laid down.

How deep do you go in lifting the roads?—That depends upon circumstances, but I have generally gone four inches deep; I take the materials up four inches deep, and having broken the larger pieces, I put them back again.

Please to explain to the Committee the mode of breaking the stones so as to admit of the labour of men, women and children?—When the stones of an old road have been taken up, they are generally found of the size that women and boys can break them with small hammers, and therefore I would propose to employ these people to break those stones always before they are laid back in the roads.

Is it your plan for those people to break those stones standing, or in a sitting posture?—Always in a sitting posture: because I have found that persons sitting will break more stones than persons standing, and with a lighter hammer.

Does that apply to all materials?—To all materials universally.

Does the plan which you have mentioned of breaking up the roads, apply to gravel roads, or only to those roads composed of hard stones?—In gravel roads and in some other roads it would be impossible to break them up to any advantage; and in several places which I will explain, I should think it unprofitable to lift a road at all. There is a discretion of the surveyor, or the person who has the execution of the work, which must be exercised. I did not order the road in the neighbourhood of Reading to be lifted, but I directed wherever a large piece of flint was seen, it should be taken up, broken, and put down again; and I directed the road to be made perfectly clean—I am speaking of a gravel road now—and I directed that additional gravel should be prepared in the pits by screening the dirt very clean from it, breaking all the large pieces and bringing that upon the road in very light coats not exceeding two inches at a time; and when those coats were settled, to bring others of very clean materials upon the road, until it settled into a solid smooth hard surface, and which the coachmen in their mode of expression, say “runs true.” The wheel runs hard upon it; it runs upon the nail.

Uninfluenced by the state of the weather?—Perfectly so.

In your experience, have you observed that on gravel roads the materials are generally very unskilfully and improperly applied?—Generally so. I think always I may say, for I think I never saw them skilfully or properly managed.

Have you adopted the mode of washing the gravel?—No; I think that is a more expensive process than is necessary.

Do you think it more expensive than screening?—A great deal more so, and I have another reason for objecting to that, with respect to the gravel near London; the loam adheres so strongly to it that no ordinary washing will clean it. The loam is detached from the gravel by the united effort of the water on the road, and the travelling, by which the roads near London become so excessively dirty; but it would be impossible to detach the loam from the gravel in the pits, by throwing water on it; I have tried the experiment and know the fact.

To what particular practice do you allude, when you inform the Committee that gravel is unskilfully applied to the roads in general?—I see that on gravel roads, the gravel is put on after being very imperfectly sifted, and the huge pieces not being broken, and the gravel is laid on the middle of the road and allowed to find its own may to the sides. Now the principle of road-making I think the most valuable, is to put broken stone upon a road, which shall unite by its own angles, so as to form a solid hard surface, and therefore it follows, that when that material is laid upon the road, it must remain in the situation in which it is placed without ever being moved again; and what I find fault with putting quantities of gravel on the road is, that before it becomes useful it must move its situation and be in constant motion.

In order to attain the advantage you allude to in the angular materials, I take it for granted, it is your plan to have the larger pieces of gravel well broken?—Certainly; but I mean further, that in digging the gravel near London, and places where there are vast quantities of loam, and that loam adhering to every particle of the gravel, however small, I should recommend to leave the very small or fine part of the gravel in the pits, and to make use of the larger part which can be broken, for the double purpose of having the gravel laid on the road in an angular shape, and that the operation of breaking it is the most effectual operation for beating off the loam that adheres to the pieces of gravel. There are other cases besides that of gravel, in which I should think it unprofitable to lift a road. The road between Cirencester and Bath is made of very soft stone, and is of so brittle a nature, that if it were lifted it would rise in sand, and there would be nothing to lay down again that would be useful. I should not recommend lifting of freestone roads for the same reason, because it would go so much to sand that there would be very little to lay down again. I will explain what I have done to that road between Cirencester and Bath; I was obliged to lift a little of the sides of the road in order to give it shape, but in the centre of the road, we, what our men call, “shaved it;” it was before in the state which the country people call “gridironed,” that is, it was in long ridges with long hollows between, and we cut down the high part to a level with the bottom of the furrows, and took the materials and sifted them at the side of the read and returned what was useful to the centre.

Can you state whether the plan adopted on this road has increased or diminished the expense?—I think the expenses, by the last account, were rather within the expenditure of the former year, even including the new surveyor’s wages. They had been in the practice of allowing about 32l. a week to the two surveyors as the ordinary expenditure; I directed the new surveyors not to exceed that sum upon any account whatever, including their own wages: but formerly they paid that sum, and paid the surveyor his wages at the end of the quarter or half-year in addition: therefore I consider the sum expended upon the road is rather within the former expenditure than otherwise, except with regard to two dangerous slips which took place at Swainswick-hill, which I consider as perfectly extra.

In the formation of roads under your management, to what shape do you give the preference; I allude to the convex shape or the flat?—I consider a road should be as flat as possible with regard to allowing the water to run off at all, because a carriage ought to stand upright in travelling as much as possible. I have generally made roads three inches higher in the centre than I have at the sides, when they are 18 feet wide; if the road be smooth and well made, the water will run off very easily in such a slope.

Do you consider a road so made will not be likely to wear hollow in the middle, so as to allow the water to stand, after it has been used for some time?—No; when a road is made flat, people will not follow the middle of it as they do when it is made extremely convex. Gentlemen will have observed that in roads very convex, travellers generally follow the track in the middle, which is the only place where a carriage can run upright, by which means three furrows are made by the horses and the wheels, and the water continually stands there: and I think that more water actually stands upon a very convex road than on one which is reasonably flat.

What width would you in general recommend for laying materials on a turnpike road?—That must depend upon the situation. Near great towns roads of course ought to be wider than farther in the country. Roads near great towns ought not to be less than thirty or forty feet wide, but at a distance from great towns it would be a waste of land to make them so wide.

You mean a breadth of thirty feet actual road?—Yes. The access to Bristol for a distance of about three miles, if we had room between the hedges, I would make about thirty feet wide. Between Bath and Bristol I should wish to see the road wide all the way, because it is only the distance of twelve miles between two large cities.

In what way do you make the watercourses at the sides of the road; I ask that question, having observed the farmers, in exercising their power of cleaning out their ditches, dig them to such a depth as to render them dangerous to be passed at night?—I always wished the ditch to be so dug as that the materials of the road should be three or four inches above the level of the water in the ditch, and to that point we endeavour to bring the farmers, but they are very unwilling to clean the ditches at any time when called upon, and when they do it, if they find vegetable mould in any quantity at the bottom of the ditch, they will prosecute their inquiry much deeper than is useful, or proper for safety.

Do you consider you have power by law, at present, for preventing that?—Yes; because the law says, they are to clean them out according to the directions of the surveyors.

In your experience have you found any impediment to the improvement of the roads, from a want of power in the proprietors of different navigations to lower their tolls for conveying materials?—I have found in the river Lea navigation, that the trustees have no power to lower their tolls, which were imposed by act of parliament upon merchandize, and therefore, it operated in a great measure as a prohibition to carry materials upon that river.

Do you consider it would be to the interest of the proprietors to allow materials to be carried on their navigations at a lower rate than they are empowered to allow by law?—Yes, if they could.

Do you know any similar instance as applicable to canals?—I don’t know an instance with respect to canal trusts, but there is an instance with respect to the Bath river at Bristol. No mitigation of the present rate of duty on that river can take place if objected to by any one proprietor, and therefore we have found great difficulty in carrying materials on the Bath river. In one particular place we have been entirely precluded from carrying any.

Have you found any impediment to the improvement of roads arising from the conditions upon which materials are permitted to be conveyed from one parish to another?—Yes; I found that in several cases in the Bristol district. One very strong instance occurred near Keynsham; we had a quarry close to the edge of one parish, and we could not carry the stones from it to the distance of ten yards, without the process of going to the magistrates.

Did you in that case make application to the magistrates?—I did intend to make application, but before I made that application, I found in the very next field, belonging to the same farmer, and in the parish where we required them, the necessary materials, and I was under the necessity of opening both the fields, to the detriment of the farmer’s landlord I am persuaded.

Do you know an instance of such an application as that to which you have alluded, having been made to the magistrates, and having been refused?—No, I do not.

Do you think that a great inconvenience and loss of time would be saved if that necessity of application was dispensed with?—It certainly is a great inconvenience, and creates a great deal of heart-burning in the country, and much dispute. I think the commissioners would very seldom be disposed to carry materials from one parish to another, unless for the general public good.

What depth of solid materials would you think it right to put upon a road, in order to repair it properly?—I should think that ten inches of well consolidated materials is equal to carry anything.

That is, provided the substratum is sound?—No; I should not care whether the substratum was soft or hard; I should rather prefer a soft one to a hard one.

You don’t mean you would prefer a bog?—If it was not such a bog as would not allow a man to walk over, I should prefer it.

What advantage is derived from the substrata not being perfectly solid?—I think, when a road ts placed upon a hard substance, such as a rock, the road wears much sooner than when placed on a soft substance.

But must not the draught of a carriage be much greater on a road which has a very soft foundation, than over one which is of a rocky foundation?—I think the difference would be very little indeed, because the yield of a good road on a soft foundation, is not perceptible.

To use the expression to which you have alluded, as being used by the coachmen, would a carriage run so true upon a road, the foundation of which was soft, as upon one of which the foundation was hard?—If the road be very good, and very well made, it will be so solid, and so hard, as to make no difference. And I will give the Committee a strong instance of that, in the knowledge of many gentlemen here. The road in Somersetshire, between Bridgewater and Cross, is mostly over a morass, which is so extremely soft, that when you ride in a carriage along the road, you see the water tremble in the ditches on each side; and after there has been a slight frost, the vibration of the water from the carriage on the road, will be so great as to break the young ice. That road is partly in the Bristol district. I think there is about seven miles of it, and at the end of those seven miles, we come directly on the limestone rock. I think we have about five or six miles of this rocky road immediately succeeding the morass; and being curious to know what the wear was, I had a very exact account kept, not very lately, but I think the difference is as five to seven in the expenditure of the materials on the soft and hard.

Do you mean seven on the hard and five on the soft?—Yes.

And yet the hard road is more open to the effect of the sun and air than the soft road?—It certainly lies higher.

Have you ever inquired of the coachmen, on which of those two descriptions of roads the carriages run the lightest?—Yes, I have; and I have found that there is no difference, if the road be equally smooth on the surface, whether it be placed on the soft ground or hard.

But in forming a road over a morass, would you bottom the road with small or large stones?—I never use large stones on the bottom of a road; I would not put a large stone in any part of it.

In forming a road across morass, would you not put some sort of intermediate material between the bog and the stone?—No, never.

Would you not put faggots?—No, no faggots.

How small would you use the stones?—Not to exceed six ounces in weight.

Have you not found that a foundation of bog sinks?—No, not a bit of the road sinks; and we have the same thickness of materials on the one as on the other.

If a road be made smooth and solid, it will be one mass, and the effect of the substrata, whether clay or sand, can never be felt in effect by carriages going over the road; because a road well made, unites itself into a body like a piece of timber or a board.

In making a road under these circumstances, do you make the whole of the depth of materials at once?—No, I prefer making a road in three times.

Three different times?—Yes.

To what size would you break the hard materials?—To the size of six ounces weight.

Do you not think that is an indefinite criterion; had you not better mention the size?—No; I did imagine myself, that the difference existed to which you allude, and I have weighed six ounces of different substances, and am confident there is little difference in appearance and none in effect; I think that none ought to exceed six ounces; I hold six ounces to be the maximum size. If you made the road, of all six ounce stones it would be a rough road; but it is impossible but that the greater part of the stones must be under that size.

Do you find a measure or ring through which the stones will pass, a good method of regulating their size?—That is a very good way, but I always make my surveyors carry a pair of scales and a six ounce weight in their pocket, and when they come to a heap of stones, they weigh one or two of the largest, and if they are reasonably about that weight they will do; it is impossible to make them come exactly to it. I would beg leave to say, in all cases of laying new materials upon an old road, I recommend loosening the surface with a pickaxe a very little, so as to allow the new materials to unite with the old, otherwise the new materials being laid on the hard surface never unite, but get kicked about, and are lost to the roads; wherever new materials are to be put down upon an old road, I recommend a little loosening; but that I don’t call lifting.

Have you stated what thickness of new materials you would lay down on an old road?—I should consider an old road would not want new materials if it had ten inches of materials before, but I should only pick up the materials, and break the large stones; and if there were any want of materials, I would lay on as much as would bring it up to somewhere about the ten inches.

Would you prefer doing that in dry weather or in wet weather?—In wet weather, always; I always prefer mending a road in weather not very dry.

Are you of opinion that any alteration of the present law, either in regard to the repeal of the present regulations or the enactment of new ones, could advantageously take place in regard to the shape of wheels, and the allowance of weight to be carried in waggons and carts?—I am of opinion that the descriptions of wheels given in all the acts of parliament in the last sessions are the most convenient and useful; and I have thought of the matter very much, without being able to suggest any alteration profitable to the public. With respect to weights, I consider there are very great difficulties in that business. We have weighing machines in the neighbourhood I now am in, and I am persuaded in many instances that they are made instruments of oppression, and in a great many cases the means of committing very great fraud on the commissioners and others; and if some method could be fallen upon by which weighing machines might be dispensed with altogether, and the road reasonably protected, I should think it a very great public advantage. In the new Bristol Act, I have proposed to the commissioners that they should submit to parliament to lay a toll-duty upon the number of horses in a progressive ratio, so as to compel those people who offend to bring in their hands the penalty in the shape of toll; I think it would prevent a great deal of that system of entering into combinations between the toll collectors and the waggoners, which is carried on to a great extent.

Do you think, that if horses in narrow-wheeled waggons were obliged to draw otherwise than at length, it would afford any protection to the road?—Yes.

Has not the practice of making horses draw at length very much a tendency to make the horses follow one track, be the road ever so good?—Yes; and I must mention to the Committee, that the feet of horses on ill-made roads do full as much mischief as the wheels. It is driving horses in a string that makes a road what the country people call “gridironed;” it is an odd expression, but it is a very significant one.

Do you not believe, that if horses were attached to narrow wheeled waggons in pairs, it would be found very considerably easier to drive and guide them when abreast, than when placed at length?—I should think it would.

And would it not tend to prevent accidents?—Horses driven in pairs would provide in a great measure against the accidents that arise from the carelessness of those persons who drive them, which is extremely great.

Do you think that if horses were put in pairs to waggons, the power of holding back those waggons when going down a hill, would be so much increased as to prevent the necessity of so frequently locking the wheels?—Certainly it would; because on certain slopes it would not be necessary to lock the wheels; but there are very steep hills where you cannot do without locking.

Is not locking wheels an operation extremely injurious to the roads?—I am not prepared to say it is, if the drag-iron, as it is called, be of a proper description. I followed a waggon lately, with seven tons of timber on it, down Park-street, at Bristol, being a very steep road, with both its hind wheels locked; and this waggon, with this weight of timber on in and with both the hind wheels locked, did not make the least impression from the top of the street to the bottom. You could discern where the drag-irons had gone, but they had not displaced the materials nor done any mischief.

Don’t you find locking generally injurious?—Extremely injurious; on rough roads it is dreadful.

Would not fewer ruts be made if it were more the custom for horses to draw in pairs?—I believe gentlemen are not generally aware of what a rut consists. There are two kinds of ruts, generally speaking: one is a rut produced by displacing ill-prepared materials, and that is the common rut. When a road is made of ill-prepared materials, the wheel piles them up one upon another, and that forms a very narrow rut, which just holds the wheel; but a rut made by wear upon a smooth surface, is rather a concave hollow than a rut, and will present no difficulty to a carriage in travelling, and that is the difference between a rut produced by wear in a very well-made road, and that produced by displacing the materials.

Is there not much injury done to the roads by the heavy weights both of coaches and waggons?—I am not disposed to think that upon a well-made road the weight of coaches is material, or that it would be judicious to make any legal provisions affecting that subject. In regard to waggons, I conceive that the loads carried upon wheels of the description encouraged by recent acts of parliament, whatever their weight, would be very little injurious to well-made roads. I think a waggon wheel of six inches in breadth, if standing fairly on the road with any weight whatever, would do very little material injury to a road well made, and perfectly smooth. The injury done to roads is by these immense weights striking against materials, and in the present mode of shaping the wheels they drive the materials before them, instead of passing over them, because I think if a carriage passes fairly over a smooth surface, that cannot hurt the road, but must rather be an advantage to it, upon the principle of the roller.

Are you not of opinion that the immense weights carried by the broad-wheeled waggons, even by their perpendicular pressure, do injury by crushing the materials?—On a new-made road the crush would do mischief, but on a consolidated old road the mere perpendicular pressure does not do any. But there is a great deal of injury done by the conical form of the broad wheels, which operate like sledging instead of turning fairly. There is a sixteen-inch wheel waggon which comes out of Bristol, that does more injury to our roads than all the travelling of the day besides.

Are you of opinion that any benefit arises from those broad-wheeled waggons, which would justify their total exemption from tolls?—None at all.

Does the answer you have given to the Committee relative to the effect of great weights, apply equally to roads made with gravel, as well as broken stone?—I mean it to apply to all well-made roads, whether of gravel or of other materials.

You mean after the road is smooth and solid?—Yes.

But with regard to a new road, are you not of opinion that the materials are crushed and worn out by a great weight?—Yes; no doubt that is so on a new-made road, and one of those waggons with the wheels made conical, would crush a greater proportion of stone than it ought to do.

Do you not conceive that the state of the turnpike roads would be improved by not allowing any waggons to carry more weight than four ton?—I don’t know that that would make any great difference, under good management. I think the defect lies in a want of science in road-making.

Martis, 9° die Martii, 1819.

John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

In your evidence last week, you stated that less improvement had taken place in the roads in the neighbourhood of London than in any other district, to what causes do you attribute this circumstance?—I consider the principal cause to be the small extent of the trusts, and the peculiar situation of London, which increases the bad effects of the division into very small trusts.

What are the particulars of the situation to which you allude?—The situation of most of the roads near London is very low, difficult to be kept free from water, the traffic is very great both in weight and number, and therefore requiring more skill, as well as more care and attention, than the other roads of the kingdom; the material found near London for making the roads is gravel of a very bad quality, it is mixed with an adhesive loam that cannot be separated from the gravel, except by the united power of water and friction; this operation cannot be effectually performed before laying it on the roads, but is done by the rain and the traffic, producing a stiff mud, which is not only in itself an impediment to travelling, but has the effect of keeping the roads loose; the form of the gravel is also unfavorable, being smooth round masses of flint, without any angles by which the parts might unite. On the other hand, London is placed in a situation peculiarly convenient for being supplied with materials from a distance, by water carriage. The materials that may be so procured are of the very best description, and, under the sanction of parliament, may be procured on very moderate terms. The Thames furnishes gravel of a very good quality and quite clean; by using this gravel, the navigation of the river will be improved; the several canals, the Surrey, the Grand Junction, Paddington, and river Lea navigation, present facilities for procuring clean flint of the best kind; the coast of Essex, Kent, and Sussex, can furnish a supply to any extent of beach pebbles, one of the best road materials in the kingdom. Granite chippings might be obtained occasionally from Cornwall, Guernsey and Scotland, as ballast; two pieces of road were made with these materials near London, without any mixture of land gravel, at Blackfriars Bridge and Westminster Bridge.

What are the impediments which, in your opinion, prevent the commissioners of the roads near London from availing themselves of those advantages?—The very small trusts into which the roads in the immediate vicinity of London are divided, is the principal cause; this renders it impossible for commissioners to enter upon the plan of procuring materials upon an extended scale, and they cannot be obtained with any regard to economy, except in quantity, with a view to a supply for the whole roads, proceeding from the stones of London to a certain distance. There are also some impediments arising from particular laws, regulations and customs, which can only be removed by parliament. The Ballast Act gives a right of pre-emption to the Trinity House of all stone and other materials brought as ballast into the Thames. The coasting duty on stone operates as a prohibition to the importation of stone as merchandize; the amount of canal duties payable on merchandize prevents the carriage of road materials on all inland navigations; manure so transported has been protected in most Canal Acts, but road materials have not been considered. Should parliament be pleased to remove these difficulties, the London roads may be rendered independent of the gravel of the country, by a moderate exertion of statistical and mercantile information on the part of the officers employed by the commissioners.

If the Committee understand you right, you give a decided preference to materials thus imported, over the gravel to be found in the neighbourhood of London?—I do.

Is it your opinion, that by proper regulations a sufficient supply of those materials to which you have alluded, could be procured for the whole of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—Yes, I think there might; because a steady and constant demand, even at a low price, would insure importation, and this demand can only be steady if the roads round London were consolidated under one set of commissioners acting for the whole, and having depôts into which they could receive materials at all times at a fixed price, to be distributed wherever wanted, by an assurance of a ready purchaser; vessels coming in ballast, or not fully loaded, from any place where good road materials were to be procured, would be induced to take on board sufficient to make up their loading; contracts could also be made for flint by the various canals, and upon terms more moderate than the present price of gravel; I am unable to lay before the Committee a detailed plan for supplying the London roads with good and cheap materials, which requires a considerable time and attention in the inquiry.

Is there any other information connected with the improvement of the roads in the neighbourhood of London, which you think you could give to the Committee?—I am quite satisfied that the materials to be imported into London would make good roads, because I made two pieces of very excellent road with those materials at the two bridges, without making use of any gravel of the country.

At what time was this done?—The pieces of road were made in August and September 1817.

What was the extent?—There were about 200 yards of the one, and about 180 yards of the other; one of them joins the iron pavement at the foot of Blackfriars bridge; and the other joins the Marsh-gate turnpike, and goes to the Asylum; those roads were made with river-gravel and pebbles from the coast.

From whence did you get the river-gravel?—It was purchased from the steam-engines that raise it in the river.

Did you lift the old road?—I took up all the stones that were in them that were good for any thing, the flints and other stones, and then made use of a considerable quantity of additional materials to make the surface of the road afterwards.

Was the expense considerable?—There was no account kept of the expense of the experiment at Westminster bridge, because the commissioners wished me to employ a number of paupers and persons that had been on the road before, without discharging them, who were very indifferent hands; and they also wished that the road should be very considerably above the level than I thought necessary, and that brought much more materials than otherwise need have been put on; but the Blackfriars bridge experiment cost about seven-pence halfpenny per square yard; there was a very correct account kept of it, including the price of materials and labour, and every thing.

Could you state what that would amount to for a mile?—That would depend upon the breadth of the road.

At what rate per mile would be the expense of such an improvement, supposing the road thirty feet wide?—About 528l. or 530l.

Is not a road constructed with a roadway of sixteen feet breadth of solid materials, and with six feet on each side of that with slighter materials, a sufficient road for the general purposes of country travelling?—Yes; and generally the roads round Bristol are made with stone, about the breadth of sixteen feet.

In your former answer respecting materials, you made use generally of the term roads “round London,” to what extent did you mean to convey the idea of that improvement?—I should think that the river, and the facility of the canals, might in all places allow you to carry the improvement ten miles round London; and perhaps where the canals or rail-ways come through the country, you might carry the improvement farther.

Has not the system of road management at present practised, the effect of repressing efforts for acquiring skill and exertions of science, as connected with the business of road-making?—I think it has.

Will you explain in what way?—Because the surveyors at present appointed are not required to have any particular skill in their business before they are appointed; but the appointment generally takes place to provide for some person a situation; and the want of superior officers over the sub-surveyors is the means of preventing those sub-surveyors from acquiring a knowledge necessary to execute their duties under an officer who would know whether they were able to execute them or not.

You mean that there is a not a sufficient degree of inspection and control provided by the legislature over the conduct of the surveyor of the roads?—I think so.

Do you conceive that a more scientific system of management of roads is wanted universally?—I do.

Do not you conceive that the want of this scientific system leads to a great waste of public money?—I think it leads to a great waste of public money.

And also to a great waste of property in horses and carriages?—I think it does.

Has any estimate ever been made of the extent of that loss?—There can be no accurate estimate of a loss so universal as that of the waste of horses and carriages by bad roads; but the Committee of 1811 estimated the saving which would be made to the country by putting the roads in a proper state of repair, at a sum equal to five millions annually.

What remedy would you propose to cure the defects of the general system of road management?—My opinion is, that the only cure would be to have people of a better station of life placed over them in the direction of this business; that each county or large district in the country ought to have an officer in the character of a gentleman, to oversee the surveyors of the district; not only to direct them what to do, but to see that the work is judiciously and honestly executed; and I think a very small proportion of the sum now wasted by bad management would pay for such an establishment.

Would you alter the trusts?—That would be a great advantage, if the trusts could be consolidated; but there are objections to that, and very serious objections.

Local objections?—Yes, such as the debt upon each trust.

Do you propose the appointment of those overseers to be with the present commissioners of the roads?—Certainly.

Do you propose any general inspection to be established over the whole system of road-making?—I should think it a public advantage if there was some inspection or controlling power in some quarter or other, to prevent the general surveyors from being improperly appointed; but whether that controlling power should emanate from the government, or the authorities in the county, I am not a judge.

Do you think a controlling power established in the metropolis, to communicate on the subject throughout the kingdom, would be an advantageous establishment?—I think it would be a very profitable and desirable establishment.

Looking to the revenues and to practical advantages?—Looking to the revenues, practical advantages, and to the dissemination of information.

Would you propose their having a power of suspending officers in certain cases?—Certainly, till the pleasure of the commissioners was known; on any gross instance of misconduct or negligence.

Would not you propose they should report occasionally the state and condition of the roads, and also the state of the finances of each trust?—I should think the state of the finances ought to be reported in some way every year, that they might reach parliament, either by counties, or by some means the least expensive and least troublesome; and I think such a report of the finances, annually, would be a great means of preventing mis-application of the public funds; and it would create a comparison between one part of the country and another, that would be useful in checking misconduct.

Then you do not think there is, at present, a sufficient protection of the road revenue of the kingdom against dishonest or ignorant practices?—I think the road revenue is less protected than any other part of the public expenditure; and, though it is very large, it may be considered, I think, almost unprotected, under the present system of law.

Have you any loose guess in your own mind, as to the extent of the revenue throughout the kingdom, raised for the purpose of maintaining roads?—I have been led to guess a million and a quarter a year, as the toll revenue; from the circumstance of there being five-and-twenty thousand miles of turnpike road in England and Wales.

That is an increasing revenue?—It is certainly increasing very much; I think the revenue has been increased by the increase of travelling, and particularly stage-coaches.

Has not it been the practice to augment the tolls considerably in all recent turnpike acts?—In the three sessions of parliament preceding the present, I think, there were about ninety petitions to parliament for a renewal of acts, and an increase of their tolls, because they were in a state that they could not pay their debts without the assistance of parliament.

Does not the great expense attending the renewal of acts of parliament, contribute very much to restrain a proper improvement of the roads in the kingdom?—The expense of renewing so many acts of parliament, as is occasioned by the great division of trusts in the country, certainly absorbs a very great sum of the road revenue of the kingdom; because those acts are every one of them renewed every twenty-one years, and frequently circumstances oblige the trustees to come oftener to parliament.

Do you happen to know whether there have been any steps taken by the Post-office, with a view to forming some general arrangement with regard to the roads?—I am not acquainted with any. I have had repeated conversations with lord Chichester, the postmaster-general, and he has asked for all the information I could give his lordship; and, of course, I have given the information pretty much in the manner I have had the honour to do to this Committee; and, I believe, his lordship is satisfied, that the consolidation of trusts would be very useful: and he has used his influence in the county of Sussex to have nine trusts consolidated, for the express purpose of mutual assistance in providing a general surveyor.

Do you know the result?—I gave the result, and a copy of the resolutions of the county, at the last meeting.

Do you know the result as to the expenditure?—Yes, it goes to that as well as to the amendment of the roads.

Supposing any insuperable difficulty to exist in placing the management of the roads of the kingdom under a board of management, do you not consider that very great advantage would arise from consolidating the different trusts round London, and placing them under an unity of superintendence and regulation?—Certainly so; I think that that would be a measure of the greatest use in the world; and I think that no palliative, no other means whatever can be devised to get the London roads improved, except consolidating the trusts under one head, or one set of commissioners, or some body that shall control the whole; consolidating the roads round London, would be the means probably of great amelioration in the system or manner of mending the roads, and that would serve as an example to other parts of the country, and might be the means of extending improvement in the mode of road-making, and would form a sort of school or example to other parts of the country.

Do you think, upon the same principle that you recommend consolidating trusts round London, it would be advisable that powers should be given to consolidate trusts in different parts of the kingdom?—I should think it very advisable that powers were granted by parliament to such trusts as chose to do it, to consolidate themselves into one body for the purpose of having a better superintendence, or for any other purposes of general improvement; but upon considering the matter very fully, I am of opinion that it would be more profitable that the Legislature should give leave to trusts than that they should make it imperative upon them; it will be absolutely necessary, before any such measure could come into effect, that parliament should not only give this leave, but that they should make the proceedings of the general meeting of those trusts legal, which at present they would not be as the law stands; the nine trusts in Sussex, who have now voluntarily associated together, hold what is considered a general meeting of those trusts; but I by no means think that their proceedings are legal, as the law now stands.

In many cases where the consolidation would be beneficial, do not you consider it would be resisted from local motives?—Perhaps it might be resisted; it will be unfortunate when that happens to be the case, but when the good effects of it begin to be seen in the country, I think those objections would be got rid of.

Do you believe that the first effects of such consolidation would be a diminution of expense?—I am quite certain of that.

How is that diminution of expense to arise?—By introducing a much better mode of management, it would occasion more regularity in the mode of keeping accounts, it would introduce a diminution of expense materially in horse labour, and in various other things; that I think, upon the whole, the diminution of expense by such regulation would be found very great indeed.

Do not you believe that the present system of maintaining roads is the means of a continued increase of expense in the debt and tolls throughout the kingdom?—I think the debt is increasing very much throughout the kingdom and that the debt is perhaps greater than gentlemen in parliament are aware of; at present tolls are increasing.

Do you consider that there is a corresponding improvement in the roads, in proportion to the increase of the tolls and debts?—By no means; my belief is, that where the greatest expense is, there the worst management is, or rather, that the worst management produces the greatest expense.

Then, in your opinion, a great improvement might be effected on the roads in general, which might be accompanied in the end by a gradual diminution of debt and tolls?—Certainly, I think so.

Can you give any information as to the total amount of general debt on the roads now existing in England and Wales? After inquiring by all the means that an unauthorized individual could do in different parts of the country, and ascertaining, as nearly as I could, the amount of debt upon a great number of trusts; I have been inclined to believe that the debt at present amounts to about seven millions in England and Wales.

Are you of opinion that any considerable advantage might be derived in the management of the roads, by a commutation for the statute labour?—Yes; I think very great advantage would be derived by the public, if the statute labour were commuted for money, and that, if it were commuted at a very low rate; if it were one half of the real value of the work, I should think, the roads would be more benefited by it in general through the country.

Is it the general practice in Scotland, under any act of parliament, to commute statute labour for money?—All the acts of parliament I am acquainted with in Scotland, have commuted it; one in the county I belong to, commuted it twenty years ago with very great advantage.

You have mentioned that the commissioners of the Westminster bridge road required you to employ a considerable number of paupers; the Committee wish to know whether it is the general practice, in your observation, to employ paupers upon roads?—I have always found that in every place where the improvement of the roads has been commenced, under any advice given by me, it has been desired very much by the inhabitants that the people unemployed (not, perhaps, paupers that generally receive parish relief, but those people who come to ask for relief, because they cannot get work) should be employed on the road; and it has been very much my wish to gratify that desire by giving them work, not by the day, but by the piece, because that has generally put them off the parishes; the moment they get work to do, by which they can get their bread, and without which they cannot get their bread, they quit the parish.

Is it not the practice, in trusts where you have not been concerned, to employ paupers, or very old labourers?—I have found in all the trusts that have sent to me to take advice, that the labourers have been a great number of them very inefficient men; and the excuse generally given for that is, that those people would come to the parish if they were not sent to the roads.

Is the pay of those men proportionably low with their abilities to work?—I have not found that to be the case. I have found that those poor, miserable men, who can do very little, have been getting considerable wages, and in that way a considerable sum has been wasted.

In point of practice, then, the road revenue is made to act as a poor fund?—Precisely so; I think the road revenue has gone to the assistance of the poor in that way.

In your experience have you found that the common mode of employing paupers by day-work, is inefficient both to the improvement of the roads and to the object of relieving the parishes?—It may have the effect of relieving the parishes, but I should think it a very bad mode of mending the roads; inasmuch as these men, when they have got day-wages, will do very little, and for that reason I employ all our men on piece-work; we have two hundred and eighty labourers in the district of Bristol, and they are almost all on piece-work; it is very seldom we employ men by the day. I was directed by the Committee, at their last meeting, to produce some more detailed accounts respecting the Bristol district: in obedience to that order, I have obtained the report made by me at the end of the first and second year of my administration, which I beg to submit to the Committee, together with the resolution of the commissioners thereon.

[The following Papers were delivered in, and read:]

Expenditure on the Bristol Roads.

In the year 1815, previous to the alteration of management, there was paid	£. 14,285 2 1
An unpaid floating debt of	1,400 0 0
Total expense of 1815, to 25th March 1816		£. 15,685 2 1
		=============

Alteration of management, commenced 16th January, 1816.

In 1816, outlay was		£.16,127 5 1
Deduct accounts of 1815	£.1,400
Paid into 5 per cent. fund, about	340
		1,740 0 0
Total expense of roads, to March 1817			£.14,387 5 1
			=============
In 1817, outlay was		£.15,830 4 11
Of which, permanent improvements cost	£.1,500
Paid to 5 per cent. fund, about	200
Paid for a general survey and plans	340
Whitchurch Bridge repairs	320
		2,360 0 0
Total expenditure for roads, to 25 March 1818			£.13,470 4 11
			=============

Bristol Turnpikes.
Report of Mr. John Loudon MᶜAdam, to a General Meeting of Commissioners, 2d June 1817.

Since I had the honour of reporting to the meeting of commissioners on the 2d of March last, the amendment of the roads has proceeded with success, and at present there are no parts of the roads of the Bristol district in a bad state.

Much has been done in partial improvements, which have altogether amounted to a considerable sum, although not of sufficient magnitude individually to come within the scope of the regulations of the general meeting, that restrain improvements exceeding 50l. without special order; several such improvements are still necessary, and some of the small bridges require to be lengthened in the arches, in order to lead the roads to them more commodiously, and to widen the roadway on the bridges.

The statement of the income and expenditure of the year, now made up to the 25th March, presents a very satisfactory result.

In the last year, a sum equal to nearly five times that of the preceding year, has been paid into the 5 per cent. fund.

A floating debt, which did not appear in the printed annual account of last year, but which amounted to about 1,400l. has been paid off.

The balances of treasurer’s accounts, which last year showed the trust to be indebted on the whole to the treasurer 356l. are now so much on the other side, that your treasurers have on the whole account a balance in hand of 614l. and this balance is efficient, because the floating debt is now reduced to the smallest sum possible, under the circumstances of a business so extended.

In addition to which, I have to congratulate the commissioners on a reduction of the principal debt in the sum of 729l. 10s. 3d. and that turnpike tickets, which were at a discount, are now in demand at par.

(Signed) John Loudon MᶜAdam.

8th March 1819.

The foregoing is a true copy from the book of proceedings of the trustees of the Bristol turnpike roads.

Osborne & Ward, Clerks.

Bristol Turnpikes.
Report of Mr. John Loudon MᶜAdam, to a General Meeting of Commissioners, 1st June 1818.

Bristol Office of Roads, 1st June, 1818.

Since I had the honour to report to the commissioners, in June 1817, the business of the roads has gone on successfully, and they have been kept in invariably good repair under the present system of management, notwithstanding the roads having been tried by all vicissitudes of the most unfavourable seasons ever known.

Several valuable improvements have also been effected in different parts of the district; the very promising state of the finances having induced the commissioners to employ great part of the savings of their income for that purpose, instead of applying the whole to the liquidation of the principal debt of the trust. This great debt has, however, been diminished nearly 500l. while the sum expended on the permanent improvements considerably exceeds 1,500l.

		£. s. d.
On the 25th March 1818, there was a balance in the hands of each of the treasurers, with exception of the Bitton and Toghill roads; and the balance due to that treasurer has been diminished upon the whole account; there remained in the hands of the treasurers, on the 25th March 1818, the sum of		1,987 14 5
In the hands of the general treasurer, from 5 per cent. fund	£.502 5 11
Due by the Whitchurch road to the 5 per cent. fund, and included in the general debt	300 0 0
		802 5 11
Balance in hand, 25th March 1818		£.2,790 0 4
		===========

It is very gratifying to report to the commissioners this material amelioration of the funds during the present year, when the income of the trust has suffered a diminution of 425l. 5s. occasioned probably by the depression of trade throughout the country.

It is to be regretted that the directions of the general meetings respecting the payments to the 5 per cent. fund have not been more punctually obeyed; but without entering into the circumstances of heavy debt and other difficulties, which have hitherto prevented payments from particular treasurers, I beg leave to call the attention of the commissioners to a consideration of the importance of this fund, and the use to which it may be most advantageously applied.

The fund was instituted for the purpose of giving the general meetings the power of extending aid to any division of the roads of the district that might be in distress. As the favourable state of the funds, arising from the system of management adopted by the commissioners, gives a very reasonable hope that such occasion of distress may never again occur, it may be expedient to consider of the propriety of converting the 5 per cents. into a sinking fund.

By application of such a sum, amounting to about 850l. annually, to the gradual extinction of the debt of the trust, the means of continuing several useful and very desirable improvements will be diminished only in a small proportion, and the amendment of the general state of the roads will proceed, without entirely losing sight of the justice due to the creditors, and the desirable object of reducing a debt of such magnitude.

As it may be doubtful whether under the authority of the present act of parliament the trustees may legally apply the 5 per cent. fund to the purpose of a sinking fund, the committee appointed to prepare the new act may be instructed to consider of this subject, and also for better securing the due payment of the 5 per cent. fund at stated periods, along with the interest of the debt, to the general treasurer.

I have great pleasure in being able to continue to give a favourable report of the conduct of the sub-surveyors.

(Signed) John Loudon MᶜAdam.

8th March, 1819.

The foregoing is a true copy from the book of proceedings of the trustees of the Bristol turnpike roads.

Osborne & Ward, Clerks.