Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Friday, August 14.

Abiel Foster, from New Hampshire, appeared and took his seat.

Saturday, August 15.

Amendments to the Constitution.

FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE.

Article 1. Section 9. Between paragraphs two and three insert, "no religion shall be established by law, nor shall the equal rights of conscience be infringed."

Mr. Sylvester had some doubts of the propriety of the mode of expression used in this paragraph. He apprehended that it was liable to a construction different from what had been made by the committee. He feared it might be thought to have a tendency to abolish religion altogether.

Mr. Vining suggested the propriety of transposing the two members of the sentence.

Mr. Gerry said, it would read better if it was, that no religious doctrine shall be established by law.

Mr. Sherman thought the amendment altogether unnecessary, inasmuch as Congress had no authority whatever delegated to them by the constitution to make religious establishments; he would, therefore, move to have it struck out.

Mr. Carroll.—As the rights of conscience are, in their nature, of peculiar delicacy, and will little bear the gentlest touch of governmental hand; and as many sects have concurred in opinion, that they are not well secured under the present constitution, he said he was much in favor of adopting the words. He thought it would tend more towards conciliating the minds of the people to the Government than almost any other amendment he had heard proposed. He would not contend with gentlemen about the phraseology, his object was to secure the substance in such a manner as to satisfy the wishes of the honest part of the community.

Mr. Madison said, he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience. Whether the words are necessary or not, he did not mean to say, but they had been required by some of the State Conventions, who seemed to entertain an opinion that under the clause of the constitution, which gave power to Congress to make all laws necessary and proper to carry into execution the constitution, and the laws made under it, enabled them to make laws of such a nature as might infringe the rights of conscience, and establish a national religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended, and he thought it as well expressed as the nature of the language would admit.

Mr. Huntington said, that he feared, with the gentleman first up on this subject, that the words might be taken in such a latitude as to be extremely hurtful to the cause of religion. He understood the amendment to mean what had been expressed by the gentleman from Virginia; but others might find it convenient to put another construction upon it. The ministers of their congregations to the eastward were maintained by the contributions of those who belonged to their society; the expense of building meeting-houses was contributed in the same manner. These things were regulated by by-laws. If an action was brought before a Federal Court on any of these cases, the person who had neglected to perform his engagements could not be compelled to do it; for a support of ministers, or building of places of worship, might be construed into a religious establishment.

By the charter of Rhode Island, no religion could be established by law; he could give a history of the effects of such a regulation; indeed the people were now enjoying the blessed fruits of it. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be made in such a way as to secure the rights of conscience, and a free exercise of the rights of religion, but not to patronize those who professed no religion at all.

Mr. Madison thought, if the word national was inserted before religion, it would satisfy the minds of honorable gentlemen. He believed that the people feared one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform. He thought if the word national was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent.

Mr. Livermore was not satisfied with that amendment; but he did not wish them to dwell long on the subject. He thought it would be better if it was altered, and made to read in this manner, that Congress shall make no laws touching religion, or infringing the rights of conscience.

Mr. Gerry did not like the term national, proposed by the gentleman from Virginia, and he hoped it would not be adopted by the House. It brought to his mind some observations that had taken place in the conventions at the time they were considering the present constitution. It had been insisted upon by those who were called anti-federalists, that this form of Government consolidated the Union; the honorable gentleman's motion shows that he considers it in the same light. Those who were called anti-federalists at that time complained that they had injustice done them by the title, because they were in favor of a Federal government, and the others were in favor of a national one; the federalists were for ratifying the constitution as it stood, and the others not until amendments were made. Their names then ought not to have been distinguished by federalists and anti-federalists, but rats and anti-rats.

Mr. Madison withdrew his motion, but observed that the words "no national religion shall be established by law," did not imply that the Government was a national one; the question was then taken on Mr. Livermore's motion, and passed in the affirmative, thirty-one for, and twenty against it.

Amendments to the Constitution.

RIGHT OF INSTRUCTION.

"The freedom of speech and of the press, and the right of the people peaceably to assemble and consult for the common good, and to apply to the Government for a redress of grievances," being the clause under consideration, Mr. Tucker, of South Carolina, moved to add thereto these words—to instruct their representatives.

Mr. Hartley wished the motion had not been made, for gentlemen acquainted with the circumstances of this country, and the history of the country from which we separated, differed exceedingly on this point. The members of the House of Representatives, said he, are chosen for two years, the members of the Senate for six.

According to the principles laid down in the Constitution, it is presumable that the persons elected know the interests and the circumstances of their constituents, and being checked in their determinations by a division of the Legislative power into two branches, there is little danger of error. At least it ought to be supposed that they have the confidence of the people during the period for which they are elected; and if, by misconduct, they forfeit it, their constituents have the power of leaving them out at the expiration of that time—thus they are answerable for the part they have taken in measures that may be contrary to the general wish.

Representation is the principle of our Government; the people ought to have confidence in the honor and integrity of those they send forward to transact their business; their right to instruct them is a problematical subject. We have seen it attended with bad consequences, both in England and America. When the passions of the people are excited, instructions have been resorted to and obtained, to answer party purposes; and although the public opinion is generally respectable, yet at such moments it has been known to be often wrong; and happy is that Government composed of men of firmness and wisdom to discover, and resist popular error.

If, in a small community, where the interests, habits, and manners are neither so numerous nor diversified, instructions bind not, what shall we say of instructions to this body? Can it be supposed that the inhabitants of a single district in a State, are better informed with respect to the general interests of the Union, than a select body assembled from every part? Can it be supposed that a part will be more desirous of promoting the good of the whole than the whole will of the part? I apprehend, sir, that Congress will be the best judges of proper measures, and that instructions will never be resorted to but for party purposes, when they will generally contain the prejudices and acrimony of the party, rather than the dictates of honest reason and sound policy.

In England this question has been considerably agitated. The representatives of some towns in Parliament have acknowledged, and submitted to the binding force of instructions, while the majority have thrown off the shackles with disdain. I would not have this precedent influence our decision; but let the doctrine be tried upon its own merits, and stand or fall as it shall be found to deserve.

It appears to my mind, that the principle of representation is distinct from an agency, which may require written instructions. The great end of meeting is to consult for the common good; but can the common good be discerned without the object is reflected and shown in every light. A local or partial view does not necessarily enable any man to comprehend it clearly; this can only result from an inspection into the aggregate. Instructions viewed in this light will be found to embarrass the best and wisest men. And were all the members to take their seats in order to obey instructions, and those instructions were as various as it is probable they would be, what possibility would there exist of so accommodating each to the other as to produce any act whatever? Perhaps a majority of the whole might not be instructed to agree to any one point, and is it thus the people of the United States propose to form a more perfect union, provide for the common defence, and promote the general welfare?

Sir, I have known within my own time so many inconveniences and real evils arise from adopting the popular opinions on the moment, that, although I respect them as much as any man, I hope this Government will particularly guard against them, at least that they will not bind themselves by a constitutional act, and by oath, to submit to their influence; if they do, the great object which this Government has been established to attain, will inevitably elude our grasp on the uncertain and veering winds of popular commotion.

Mr. Page.—The gentleman from Pennsylvania tells you, that in England this principle is doubted; how far this is consonant with the nature of the Government I will not pretend to say; but I am not astonished to find that the administrators of a monarchical Government are unassailable by the weak voice of the people; but under a democracy, whose great end is to form a code of laws congenial with the public sentiment, the popular opinion ought to be collected and attended to. Our present object is, I presume, to secure to our constituents and to posterity these inestimable rights. Our Government is derived from the people; of consequence the people have a right to consult for the common good; but to what end will this be done, if they have not the power of instructing their representatives? Instruction and representation in a republic, appear to me to be inseparably connected; but were I the subject of a monarch, I should doubt whether the public good did not depend more upon the prince's will than the will of the people. I should dread a popular assembly consulting for the public good, because, under its influence, commotions and tumults might arise that would shake the foundation of the monarch's throne, and make the empire tremble in expectation. The people of England have submitted the crown to the Hanover family, and have rejected the Stuarts. If instructions upon such a revolution were considered binding, it is difficult to know what would have been the effects. It might be well, therefore, to have the doctrine exploded from that kingdom; but it will not be advanced as a substantial reason in favor of our treading in the same steps.

The honorable gentleman has said, that when once the people have chosen a representative, they must rely on his integrity and judgment during the period for which he is elected. I think, sir, to doubt the authority of the people to instruct their representatives, will give them just cause to be alarmed for their fate. I look upon it as a dangerous doctrine, subversive of the great end for which the United States have confederated. Every friend of mankind, every well-wisher of his country, will be desirous of obtaining the sense of the people on every occasion of magnitude; but how can this be so well expressed as in instructions to their representatives? I hope, therefore, that gentlemen will not oppose the insertion of it in this part of the report.

Mr. Clymer.—I hope the amendment will not be adopted; but if our constituents choose to instruct us, that they may be left at liberty to do so. Do gentlemen foresee the extent of these words? If they have a constitutional right to instruct us, it infers that we are bound by those instructions; and as we ought not to decide constitutional questions by implication, I presume we shall be called upon to go further, and expressly declare the members of the Legislature bound by the instruction of their constituents. This is a most dangerous principle, utterly destructive of all ideas of an independent and deliberative body, which are essential requisites in the Legislatures of free Governments; they prevent men of abilities and experience from rendering those services to the community that are in their power, destroying the object contemplated by establishing an efficient General Government, and rendering Congress a mere passive machine.

Mr. Sherman.—It appears to me, that the words are calculated to mislead the people, by conveying an idea that they have a right to control the debates of the Legislature. This cannot be admitted to be just, because it would destroy the object of their meeting. I think, when the people have chosen a representative, it is his duty to meet others from the different parts of the Union, and consult, and agree with them to such acts as are for the general benefit of the whole community. If they were to be guided by instructions, there would be no use in deliberation; all that a man would have to do, would be to produce his instructions, and lay them on the table, and let them speak for him. From hence I think it may be fairly inferred, that the right of the people to consult for the common good can go no further than to petition the Legislature, or apply for a redress of grievances. It is the duty of a good representative to inquire what measures are most likely to promote the general welfare, and, after he has discovered them, to give them his support. Should his instructions, therefore, coincide with his ideas on any measure, they would be unnecessary; if they were contrary to the conviction of his own mind, he must be bound by every principle of justice to disregard them.

Mr. Jackson was in favor of the right of the people to assemble and consult for the common good; it had been used in this country as one of the best checks on the British Legislature in their unjustifiable attempts to tax the colonies without their consent. America had no representatives in the British Parliament, therefore they could instruct none, yet they exercised the power of consultation to a good effect. He begged gentlemen to consider the dangerous tendency of establishing such a doctrine; it would necessarily drive the House into a number of factions. There might be different instructions from every State, and the representation from each State would be a faction to support its own measures.

If we establish this as a right, we shall be bound by those instructions; now, I am willing to leave both the people and representatives to their own discretion on this subject. Let the people consult and give their opinion; let the representative judge of it; and if it is just, let him govern himself by it as a good member ought to do; but if it is otherwise, let him have it in his power to reject their advice.

What may be the consequence of binding a man to vote in all cases according to the will of others? He is to decide upon a constitutional point, and on this question his conscience is bound by the obligation of a solemn oath; you now involve him in a serious dilemma. If he votes according to his conscience, he decides against his instructions; but in deciding against his instructions, he commits a breach of the constitution, by infringing the prerogative of the people, secured to them by this declaration. In short, it will give rise to such a variety of absurdities and inconsistencies, as no prudent Legislature would wish to involve themselves in.

Mr. Gerry.—By the checks provided in the constitution, we have good grounds to believe that the very framers of it conceived that the Government would be liable to maladministration, and I presume that the gentlemen of this House do not mean to arrogate to themselves more perfection than human nature has as yet been found to be capable of; if they do not, they will admit an additional check against abuses which this, like every other Government, is subject to. Instruction from the people will furnish this in a considerable degree.

It has been said that the amendment proposed by the honorable gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Tucker) determines this point, "that the people can bind their representatives to follow their instructions." I do not conceive that this necessarily follows. I think the representative, notwithstanding the insertion of these words, would be at liberty to act as he pleased; if he declined to pursue such measures as he was directed to attain, the people would have a right to refuse him their suffrages at a future election.

Now, though I do not believe the amendment would bind the representatives to obey the instructions, yet I think the people have a right both to instruct and bind them. Do gentlemen conceive that on any occasion instructions would be so general as to proceed from all our constituents? If they do, it is the sovereign will; for gentlemen will not contend that the sovereign will presides in the Legislature. The friends and patrons of this constitution have always declared that the sovereignty resides in the people, and that they do not part with it on any occasion; to say the sovereignty vests in the people and that they have not a right to instruct and control their representatives is absurd to the last degree. They must either give up their principle, or grant that the people have a right to exercise their sovereignty to control the whole Government, as well as this branch of it. But the amendment does not carry the principle to such an extent, it only declares the right of the people to send instructions; the representative will, if he thinks proper, communicate his instructions to the House, but how far they shall operate on his conduct, he will judge for himself.

The honorable gentleman from Georgia (Mr. Jackson) supposes that instructions will tend to generate factions in this House; but he did not see how it could have that effect, any more than the freedom of debate had. If the representative entertains the same opinion with his constituents, he will decide with them in favor of the measure; if other gentlemen, who are not instructed on this point, are convinced by argument that the measure is proper, they will also vote with them; consequently the influence of debate and of instruction is the same.

The gentleman says further, that the people have the right of instructing their representatives; if so, why not declare it? Does he mean that it shall lie dormant and never be exercised? If so, it will be a right of no utility. But much good may result from a declaration in the constitution that they possess this privilege; the people will be encouraged to come forward with their instructions, which will form a fund of useful information for the Legislature. We cannot, I apprehend, be too well informed of the true state, condition, and sentiment of our constituents, and perhaps this is the best mode in our power of obtaining information. I hope we shall never shut our ears against that information which is to be derived from the petitions and instructions of our constituents. I hope we shall never presume to think that all the wisdom of this country is concentrated within the walls of this House. Men, unambitious of distinctions from their fellow-citizens, remain within their own domestic walk, unheard of and unseen, possessing all the advantages resulting from a watchful observance of public men and public measures, whose voice, if we would descend to listen to it, would give us knowledge superior to what could be acquired amidst the cares and bustles of a public life; let us then adopt the amendment, and encourage the diffident to enrich our stock of knowledge with the treasure of their remarks and observations.

Mr. Madison.—I think the committee acted prudently in omitting to insert these words in the report they have brought forward; if, unfortunately, the attempt of proposing amendments should prove abortive, it will not arise from the want of a disposition in the friends of the constitution to do what is right with respect to securing the rights and privileges of the people of America, but from the difficulties arising from discussing and proposing abstract propositions of which the judgment may not be convinced. I venture to say, that if we confine ourselves to an enumeration of simple, acknowledged principles, the ratification will meet with but little difficulty. Amendments of a doubtful nature will have a tendency to prejudice the whole system; the proposition now suggested partakes highly of this nature. It is doubted by many gentlemen here; it has been objected to in intelligent publications throughout the Union; it is doubted by many members of the State Legislatures. In one sense this declaration is true, in many others it is certainly not true; in the sense in which it is true, we have asserted the right sufficiently in what we have done; if we mean nothing more than this, that the people have a right to express and communicate their sentiments and wishes, we have provided for it already. The right of freedom of speech is secured; the liberty of the press is expressly declared to be beyond the reach of this Government; the people may therefore publicly address their representatives, may privately advise them, or declare their sentiments by petition to the whole body; in all these ways they may communicate their will. If gentlemen mean to go further, and to say that the people have a right to instruct their representatives in such a sense as that the delegates are obliged to conform to those instructions, the declaration is not true. Suppose they instruct a representative, by his vote, to violate the constitution; is he at liberty to obey such instructions? Suppose he is instructed to patronize certain measures, and from circumstances known to him, but not to his constituents, he is convinced that they will endanger the public good; is he obliged to sacrifice his own judgment to them? Is he absolutely bound to perform what he is instructed to do? Suppose he refuses, will his vote be the less valid, or the community be disengaged from that obedience which is due to the laws of the Union? If his vote must inevitably have the same effect, what sort of a right is this in the constitution, to instruct a representative who has a right to disregard the order, if he pleases? In this sense the right does not exist, in the other sense it does exist, and is provided largely for.

The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts asks if the sovereignty is not with the people at large. Does he infer that the people can, in detached bodies, contravene an act established by the whole people? My idea of the sovereignty of the people is, that the people can change the constitution if they please; but while the constitution exists, they must conform themselves to its dictates. But I do not believe that the inhabitants of any district can speak the voice of the people; so far from it, their ideas may contradict the sense of the whole people; hence the consequence that instructions are binding on the representative is of a doubtful, if not of a dangerous nature. I do not conceive, therefore, that it is necessary to agree to the proposition now made; so far as any real good is to arise from it, so far that real good is provided for; so far as it is of a doubtful nature, so far it obliges us to run the risk of losing the whole system.

Mr. Smith, (of South Carolina.)—I am opposed to this motion, because I conceive it will operate as a partial inconvenience to the more distant States. If every member is to be bound by instructions how to vote, what are gentlemen from the extremities of the continent to do? Members from the neighboring States can obtain their instructions earlier than those from the Southern ones, and I presume that particular instructions will be necessary for particular measures; of consequence, we vote perhaps against instructions on their way to us, or we must decline voting at all. But what is the necessity of having a numerous representation? One member from a State can receive the instructions, and by his vote answer all the purposes of many, provided his vote is allowed to count for the proportion the State ought to send; in this way the business might be done at a less expense than having one or two hundred members in the House, which had been strongly contended for yesterday.

Mr. Stone.—I think the clause would change the Government entirely; instead of being a Government founded upon representation, it would be a democracy of singular properties.

I differ from the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison), if he thinks this clause would not bind the representative; in my opinion, it would bind him effectually, and I venture to assert, without diffidence, that any law passed by the Legislature would be of no force, if a majority of the members of this House were instructed to the contrary, provided the amendment became part of the constitution. What would follow from this? Instead of looking in the code of laws passed by Congress, your Judiciary would have to collect and examine the instructions from the various parts of the Union. It follows very clearly from hence, that the Government would be altered from a representative one to a democracy, wherein all laws are made immediately by the voice of the people.

This is a power not to be found in any part of the earth except among the Swiss cantons; there the body of the people vote upon the laws, and give instructions to their delegates. But here we have a different form of Government; the people at large are not authorized under it to vote upon the law, nor did I ever hear that any man required it. Why, then, are we called upon to propose amendments subversive of the principles of the constitution, which were never desired?

Several members now called for the question, and the Chairman being about to put the same:

Mr. Gerry.—Gentlemen seem in a great hurry to get this business through. I think, Mr. Chairman, it requires a further discussion; for my part, I had rather do less business and do it well, than precipitate measures before they are fully understood.

The honorable gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) stated, that if the proposed amendments are defeated, it will be by the delay attending the discussion of doubtful propositions; and he declares this to partake of that quality. It is natural, sir, for us to be fond of our own work. We do not like to see it disfigured by other hands. That honorable gentleman brought forward a string of propositions; among them was the clause now proposed to be amended: he is no doubt ready for the question, and determined not to admit what we think an improvement. The gentlemen who were on the committee, and brought in the report, have considered the subject, and are also ripe for a decision. But other gentlemen may crave a like indulgence. Is not the report before us for deliberation and discussion, and to obtain the sense of the House upon it; and will not gentlemen allow us a day or two for these purposes, after they have forced us to proceed upon them at this time? I appeal to their candor and good sense on the occasion, and am sure not to be refused; and I must inform them now, that they may not be surprised hereafter, that I wish all the amendments proposed by the respective States to be considered. Gentlemen say it is necessary to finish the subject, in order to reconcile a number of our fellow-citizens to the Government. If this is their principle, they ought to consider the wishes and intentions which the convention has expressed for them; if they do this, they will find that they expect and wish for the declaration proposed by the honorable gentleman over the way (Mr. Tucker), and, of consequence, they ought to agree to it; and why it, with others recommended in the same way, were not reported, I cannot pretend to say; the committee know this best themselves.

The honorable gentleman near me (Mr. Stone) says, that the laws passed contrary to instruction will be nugatory. And other gentlemen ask, if their constituents instruct them to violate the constitution, whether they must do it. Sir, does not the constitution declare that all laws passed by Congress are paramount to the laws and constitutions of the several States; if our decrees are of such force as to set aside the State laws and constitutions, certainly they may be repugnant to any instructions whatever, without being injured thereby. But can we conceive that our constituents would be so absurd as to instruct us to violate our oath, and act directly contrary to the principles of a Government ordained by themselves? We must look upon them to be absolutely abandoned and false to their own interests, to suppose them capable of giving such instructions.

If this amendment is introduced into the constitution, I do not think we shall be much troubled with instructions; a knowledge of the right will operate to check a spirit that would render instruction necessary.

The honorable gentleman from Virginia asked, will not the affirmative of a member who votes repugnant to his instructions bind the community as much as the votes of those who conform? There is no doubt, sir, but it will; but does this tend to show that the constituent has no right to instruct? Surely not. I admit, sir, that instructions contrary to the constitution ought not to bind, though the sovereignty resides in the people. The honorable gentleman acknowledges that the sovereignty vests there; if so, it may exercise its will in any case not inconsistent with a previous contract. The same gentleman asks if we are to give the power to the people in detached bodies to contravene the Government while it exists. Certainly not; nor does the proposed proposition extend to that point; it is only intended to open for them a convenient mode in which they may convey their sense to their agents. The gentleman therefore takes for granted what is inadmissible, that Congress will always be doing illegal things, and make it necessary for the sovereign to declare its pleasure.

He says the people have a right to alter the constitution, but they have no right to oppose the Government. If, while the Government exists, they have no right to control it, it appears they have divested themselves of the sovereignty over the constitution. Therefore, our language, with our principles, must change, and we ought to say that the sovereignty existed in the people previous to the establishment of this Government. This will be ground for alarm indeed, if it is true; but I trust, sir, too much to the good sense of my fellow-citizens ever to believe that the doctrine will generally obtain in this country of freedom.

Mr. Vining.—If, Mr. Chairman, there appears on one side too great an urgency to despatch this business, there appears on the other an unnecessary delay and procrastination equally improper and unpardonable. I think this business has been already well considered by the House, and every gentleman in it; however, I am not for an unseemly expedition.

Mr. Livermore was not very anxious whether the words were inserted or not, but he had a great deal of doubt on the meaning of this whole amendment; it provides that the people may meet and consult for the common good. Does this mean a part of the people in a township or district, or does it mean the representatives in the State Legislatures? If it means the latter, there is no occasion for a provision that the Legislature may instruct the members of this body.

In some States the representatives are chosen by districts. In such case, perhaps, the instructions may be considered as coming from the district; but in other States, each representative is chosen by the whole people. In New Hampshire it is the case; the instructions of any particular place would have but little weight, but a legislative instruction would have considerable influence upon each representative. If, therefore, the words mean that the Legislature may instruct, he presumed it would have considerable effect, though he did not believe it binding. Indeed, he was inclined to pay a deference to any information he might receive from any number of gentlemen, even by a private letter; but as for full binding force, no instructions contained that quality. They could not, nor ought they to have it, because different parties pursue different measures; and it might be expedient, nay, absolutely necessary, to sacrifice them in mutual concessions.

The doctrine of instructions would hold better in England than here, because the boroughs and corporations might have an interest to pursue totally immaterial to the rest of the kingdom; in that case, it would be prudent to instruct their members in Parliament.

Mr. Gerry wished the constitution amended without his having any hand in it; but if he must interfere, he would do his duty. The honorable gentleman from Delaware had given him an example of moderation and laconic and consistent debate that he meant to follow; and would just observe to the worthy gentleman last up, that several States had proposed the amendment, and among the rest, New Hampshire.

There was one remark which escaped him, when he was up before. The gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Stone) had said that the amendment would change the nature of the Government, and make it a democracy. Now he had always heard that it was a democracy; but perhaps he was misled, and the honorable gentleman was right in distinguishing it by some other appellation; perhaps an aristocracy was a term better adapted to it.

Mr. Sedgwick opposed the idea of the gentleman from New Hampshire, that the State Legislature had the power of instructing the members of this House; he looked upon it as a subornation of the rights of the people to admit such an authority. We stand not here, said he, the representatives of the State Legislatures, as under the former Congress, but as the representatives of the great body of the people. The sovereignty, the independence, and the rights of the States are intended to be guarded by the Senate; if we are to be viewed in any other light, the greatest security the people have for their rights and privileges is destroyed.

But with respect to instructions, it is well worthy of consideration how they are to be procured. It is not the opinion of an individual that is to control my conduct: I consider myself as the representative of the whole Union. An individual may give me information, but his sentiments may he in opposition to the sense of the majority of the people. If instructions are to be of any efficacy, they must speak the sense of the majority of the people, at least of a State. In a State so large as Massachusetts it will behoove gentlemen to consider how the sense of the majority of the freemen is to be obtained and communicated. Let us take care to avoid the insertion of crude and indigested propositions, more likely to produce acrimony than that spirit of harmony which we ought to cultivate.

Mr. Livermore said that he did not understand the honorable gentleman, or was not understood by him; he did not presume peremptorily to say what degree of influence the legislative instructions would have on a representative. He knew it was not the thing in contemplation here; and what he had said respected only the influence it would have on his private judgment.

Mr. Ames said there would be a very great inconvenience attending the establishment of the doctrine contended for by his colleague. Those States which had selected their members by districts would have no right to give them instructions, consequently the members ought to withdraw; in which case the House might be reduced below a majority, and not be able, according to the constitution, to do any business at all.

According to the doctrine of the gentleman from New Hampshire, one part of the Government would be annihilated; for of what avail is it that the people have the appointment of a representative, if he is to pay obedience to the dictates of another body?

Several members now rose, and called for the question.

Mr. Page was sorry to see gentlemen so impatient; the more so, as he saw there was very little attention paid to any thing that was said; but he would express his sentiments if he was only heard by the Chair. He discovered clearly, notwithstanding what had been observed by the most ingenious supporters of the opposition, that there was an absolute necessity for adopting the amendment. It was strictly compatible with the spirit and the nature of the Government; all power vests in the people of the United States; it is therefore a Government of the people, a democracy. If it were consistent with the peace and tranquillity of the inhabitants, every freeman would have a right to come and give his vote upon the law; but, inasmuch as this cannot be done, by reason of the extent of territory, and some other causes, the people have agreed that their representatives shall exercise a part of their authority. To pretend to refuse them the power of instructing their agents, appears to me to deny them a right. One gentleman asks how the instructions are to be collected. Many parts of this country have been in the practice of instructing their representatives; they found no difficulty in communicating their sense. Another gentleman asks if they were to instruct us to make paper money, what we would do. I would tell them, said he, it was unconstitutional; alter that, and we will consider on the point. Unless laws are made satisfactory to the people, they will lose their support, they will be abused or done away; this tends to destroy the efficiency of the Government.

It is the sense of several of the conventions that this amendment should take place; I think it my duty to support it, and fear it will spread an alarm among our constituents if we decline to do it.

Mr. Wadsworth.—Instructions have frequently been given to the representatives of the United States; but the people did not claim as a right that they should have any obligation upon the representatives; it is not right that they should. In troublous times, designing men have drawn the people to instruct the representatives to their harm; the representatives have, on such occasions, refused to comply with their instructions. I have known, myself, that they have been disobeyed, and yet the representative was not brought to account for it; on the contrary he was caressed and re-elected, while those who have obeyed them, contrary to their private sentiments, have ever after been despised for it. Now, if people considered it an inherent right in them to instruct their representatives, they would have undoubtedly punished the violation of them. I have no idea of instructions, unless they are obeyed; a discretional power is incompatible with them.

Mr. Burke.—I am not positive with respect to the particular expression in the declaration of rights of the people of Maryland, but the constitutions of Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina, all of them recognize, in express terms, the right of the people to give instruction to their representatives. I do not mean to insist particularly upon this amendment; but I am very well satisfied that those that are reported and likely to be adopted by this House are very far from giving satisfaction to our constituents; they are not those solid and substantial amendments which the people expect; they are little better than whip-syllabub, frothy and full of wind, formed only to please the palate; or they are like a tub thrown out to a whale, to secure the freight of the ship and its peaceable voyage. In my judgment, the people will not be gratified by the mode we have pursued in bringing them forward. There was a committee of eleven appointed; and out of the number I think there were five who were members of the convention that formed the constitution. Such gentlemen, having already given their opinion with respect to the perfection of the work, may be thought improper agents to bring forward amendments. Upon the whole, I think it will be found that we have done nothing but lose our time, and that it will be better to drop the subject now, and proceed to the organization of the Government.

The question was now called for from several parts of the House; but a desultory conversation took place before the question was put. At length the call becoming general, it was stated from the Chair, and determined in the negative, 10 rising in favor of it, and 41 against it.

Tuesday, August 18.

Amendments to the Constitution.

Mr. Gerry moved, "That such of the amendments to the constitution proposed by the several States, as are not in substance comprised in the report of the select committee appointed to consider amendments, be referred to a Committee of the whole House; and that all amendments which shall be agreed to by the committee last mentioned be included in one report."

Mr. Tucker remarked, that many citizens expected that the amendments proposed by the conventions would be attended to by the House, and that several members conceived it to be their duty to bring them forward. If the House should decline taking them into consideration, it might tend to destroy that harmony which had hitherto existed, and which did great honor to their proceedings; it might affect all their future measures, and promote such feuds as might embarrass the Government exceedingly. The States who had proposed these amendments would feel some degree of chagrin at having misplaced their confidence in the General Government. Five important States have pretty plainly expressed their apprehensions of the danger to which the rights of their citizens are exposed. Finding these cannot be secured in the mode they had wished, they will naturally recur to the alternative, and endeavor to obtain a federal convention; the consequence of this may be disagreeable to the Union; party spirit may be revived, and animosities rekindled destructive of tranquillity. States that exert themselves to obtain a federal convention, and those that oppose the measure, may feel so strongly the spirit of discord, as to sever the Union asunder.

If in this conflict the advocates for a federal convention should prove successful, the consequences may be alarming; we may lose many of the valuable principles now established in the present constitution. If, on the other hand, a convention should not be obtained, the consequences resulting are equally to be dreaded; it would render the administration of this system of government weak, if not impracticable; for no government can be administered with energy, however energetic its system, unless it obtains the confidence and support of the people. Which of the two evils is the greatest would be difficult to ascertain.

It is essential to our deliberations that the harmony of the House be preserved; by it alone we shall be enabled to perfect the organization of the Government—a Government but in embryo, or at best but in its infancy.

My idea relative to this constitution, whilst it was dependent upon the assent of the several States, was, that it required amendment, and that the proper time for amendment was previous to the ratification. My reasons were, that I conceived it difficult, if not impossible, to obtain essential amendments by the way pointed out in the constitution; nor have I been mistaken in this suspicion. It will be found, I fear, still more difficult than I apprehended; for perhaps these amendments, should they be agreed to by two-thirds of both Houses of Congress, will be submitted for ratification to the Legislatures of the several States, instead of State conventions, in which case the chance is still worse. The Legislatures of almost all the States consist of two independent, distinct bodies; the amendments must be adopted by three-fourths of such Legislatures; that is to say, they must meet the approbation of the majority of each of eighteen deliberative assemblies. But, notwithstanding all these objections to obtaining amendments after the ratification of the constitution, it will tend to give a great degree of satisfaction to those who are desirous of them, if this House shall take them up, and consider them with that degree of candor and attention they have hitherto displayed on the subjects that have come before them; consider the amendments separately, and, after fair deliberation, either approve or disapprove of them. By such conduct, we answer in some degree the expectations of those citizens in the several States who have shown so great a tenacity to the preservation of those rights and liberties they secured to themselves by an arduous, persevering, and successful conflict.

I have hopes that the States will be reconciled to this disappointment, in consequence of such procedure.

A great variety of arguments might be urged in favor of the motion; but I shall rest it here, and not trespass any further upon the patience of the House.

Mr. Madison was just going to move to refer these amendments, in order that they might be considered in the fullest manner; but it would be very inconvenient to have them made up into one report, or all of them discussed at the present time.

Mr. Vining had no objection to the bringing them forward in the fullest point of view; but his objection arose from the informality attending the introduction of the business.

The order of the House was to refer the report of the committee of eleven to a Committee of the Whole, and therefore it was improper to propose any thing additional.

A desultory conversation arose on this motion, when Mr. Vining moved the previous question, in which, being supported by five members, it was put, and the question was,—Shall the main question, to agree to the motion, be now put? The yeas and nays being demanded by one-fifth of the members present, on this last motion, they were taken as follows:

Yeas.—Messrs. Burke, Coles, Floyd, Gerry, Griffin, Grout, Hathorn, Livermore, Page, Parker, Van Renssellaer, Sherman, Stone, Sturgis, Sumter, and Tucker.—16.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Baldwin, Benson, Boudinot, Brown, Cadwalader, Carroll, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Foster, Gilman, Goodhue, Hartley, Heister, Huntington, Lawrence, Lee, Madison, Moore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Schureman, Scott, Sedgwick, Seney, Sylvester, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Thatcher, Trumbull, Vining, Wadsworth, and Wynkoop.—34.

So the motion was lost.

A message from the Senate informed the House that the Senate had passed the bill providing for expenses which may attend negotiations or treaties with the Indian tribes, and the appointment of commissioners for managing the same, with an amendment, to which they desire the concurrence of the House.

Thursday, September 3.

Permanent Seat of Government.

Mr. Scott, agreeably to notice given, moved the following: "That a permanent residence ought to be fixed for the General Government of the United States at some convenient place, as near the centre of wealth, population, and extent of territory, as may be consistent with convenience to the navigation of the Atlantic Ocean, and having due regard to the particular situation of the Western country."

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, to take into consideration the motion presented by Mr. Scott, on Thursday last, for establishing the permanent residence of Congress, Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

Mr. Goodhue.—The motion before the committee I consider too indefinite for the House to decide upon satisfactorily; I wish, therefore, to add something which may bring the question to a point. It is well known that the gentlemen from the Eastward are averse to taking up this business at this time. Not that the subject was improper for our discussion, but that the present session is drawing to a period, and there remains yet much important business to be transacted before the adjournment; but their opinion being overruled by a late vote of the House, they have since taken it into consideration, and are now ready and willing to come to a decision. The Eastern members, with the members from New York, have agreed to fix a place upon national principles, without a regard to their own convenience, and have turned their minds to the banks of the Susquehanna. This is a situation as nearly central as could be devised, upon some of the principles contained in the resolution. It is, however, supposed to be considerably to the southward of the centre of the population. Motives of convenience would have led us to fix upon the banks of the Delaware, but it was supposed it would give more lasting content to go further south. They were, therefore, unitedly of opinion, that the banks of the river Susquehanna should be the place of the permanent residence of the General Government; and that until suitable buildings could be there erected for accommodation, they should remain in the city of New York. Agreeably to these ideas, I move the following resolution:

Resolved, That the permanent seat of the General Government ought to be in some convenient place on the east bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania; and that until the necessary buildings be erected for the purpose, the seat of Government ought to continue at the city of New York.

Mr. Stone said, it ought to be "Government of the United States," instead of General Government.

Mr. Lee.—The House are now called upon to deliberate on a great national question; and I hope they will discuss and decide it with that dispassionate deliberation which the magnitude of the subject requires. I hope they will be guided in this discussion and decision, by the great principles on which the Government is founded. I have, with a view, therefore, of bringing them before a committee, drawn up a preamble, which recognizes them, in the words following:

Whereas the people of the United States have assented to and ratified a constitution for their Government, to provide for their defence against foreign danger, to secure their perpetual union and domestic tranquillity, and to promote their common interests; and all these great objects will be the best effected by establishing the seat of Government in a station as nearly central as a convenient water communication with the Atlantic Ocean, and an easy access to the Western Territory will permit; and as it will be satisfactory to the people of the United States, and give them a firm confidence in the justice and wisdom of their Government, to be assured that such a station is already in the contemplation of Congress; and that proper measures will be taken to ascertain it, and to provide the necessary accommodations, as soon as the indispensable arrangements for carrying into effect the constitution can be made, and the circumstances of the United States will permit;

Resolved, That a place, as nearly central as a convenient communication with the Atlantic Ocean, and an easy access to the Western Territory, will permit, ought to be selected and established as the permanent seat of the Government of the United States.

I wish the principles to be recognized, that the people of the United States may be able to judge whether, in the measures about to be adopted, they are carried into execution by this House. If these great principles are not observed, it will be an unhappy fulfilment of those predictions which have been made by the opponents of the constitution; that the general interest of America would not be consulted; that partial measures would be pursued; and that, instead of being influenced by a general policy, directed to the good of the whole, one part of the Union would be depressed and trampled on, to benefit and exalt the other. Instead of accomplishing and realizing those bright prospects which shone upon us in the dawn of our Government, and for which our patriots fought and bled, we shall find the whole to be a visionary fancy. I flatter myself, that before the House decides on the question before them, those principles will be recognized, if it is meant they shall be regarded.

Mr. Carrol seconded Mr. Lee's motion.

Mr. Sherman said, if they were both adopted, or blended together, they would only amount to a preamble, and determine nothing. He thought the first preamble the best, inasmuch as it stated the principles simply and concisely.

Mr. Hartley.—Several places have been mentioned, and some have been offered to Congress as proper situations for the Federal Government. Many persons wish it seated on the banks of the Delaware, many on the banks of the Potomac. I consider this as the middle ground between the two extremes. It will suit the inhabitants to the north better than the Potomac could, and the inhabitants to the south better than the Delaware would. From this consideration, I am induced to believe, it will be a situation more accommodating and agreeable than any other. Respecting its communication with the Western Territory, no doubt but the Susquehanna will facilitate that object with considerable ease and great advantage; and as to its convenience to the navigation of the Atlantic Ocean, the distance is nothing more than to afford safety from any hostile attempt, while it affords a short and easy communication with navigable rivers and large commercial towns. Nay, its intercourse may be without land carriage, if proper measures are pursued to open the navigation to the Delaware and Chesapeake. Perhaps, as the present question is only intended to be on general principles, it may be improper to be more minute than the honorable mover has been; but I think it would be better to come to the point at once, and fix the precise spot, if we could. With this view, I mention Wright's Ferry, on the Susquehanna. Not, however, that the House should decide upon it, until they have ascertained its advantages, which will, perhaps, come more properly forward when the question on the preamble is determined.

Mr. Thatcher was against a preamble being prefixed to the resolution of the committee, because the House had, on every occasion when preambles were brought forward, rejected them. He thought this a prudent conduct, because it avoided embarrassments. He observed, that it was not unfrequently the case that the preambles occasioned more difficulty in understanding the laws than the most intricate part of the laws themselves; and, therefore, the committee would act wisely to reject such trammels. He conceived, moreover, that the motion was out of order, as it was a substitute for one before the committee.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) looked upon the motion as a preamble to a preamble, both of which he conceived unnecessary; nay, he doubted the truth of some of the assertions. So far from cementing the Union, by a measure of the kind in contemplation, he rather feared it would have a tendency to rend the Union in two; for which reason he was against adopting it.

Mr. Tucker wished the proposition might lie on the table, to give gentlemen time to consider it.

Mr. Lee conceived it proper to adopt the preamble as a guide to their decision. No gentlemen pretended to say it contained improper principles. As to the whole being a preamble to a preamble, he did not conceive that to be the case, because the resolution, subsequent to the preamble, decided, that Congress should select a place for their permanent residence. He did not conceive how gentlemen could refuse their assent to a self-evident proposition. He thought such conduct would give an alarm to the inhabitants of the United States; it amounted to a declaration, that, on this important question, they would not be governed by principles founded on rectitude and good policy.

Mr. Madison.—I cannot, Mr. Chairman, discover why the opposition to my colleague's preamble is so strenuous. Is it contended to be out of order? I submit that to the decision of the Chair. Does it contain any thing which is not true? I appeal, on that point, to the candid judgment of the committee. Are the truths in it applicable to the great object we are about to decide? I appeal to the justice and policy of the people of the United States.

I flatter myself the Chair will decide with me, that the proposition is strictly in order; that the committee will agree, that its contents are substantial truths; and the whole world, that they are applicable to the important point now under consideration.

It declares the principles which ought to govern our decision on this question, and will, therefore, stand properly prefixed to the motion offered by the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Goodhue.) By it we declare our sentiments, and engage to conform to them, in fixing upon a seat for the residence of Congress. Is there any thing improper or unwise in this determination? An honorable gentleman near me (Mr. Tucker) says, that he feels himself embarrassed on this occasion; that the propositions are a bandage over his eyes, to lead him blindfolded to an object he cannot tell what. I must beg leave to differ from him. They appear to me to contain those luminous truths which ought to guide him through his embarrassment to the object which I am sure his justice and patriotism are in pursuit of. I hope, therefore, he will agree with us in adopting the motion, unless something more essential is offered against it.

Mr. Sherman.—The resolution connected with the preamble contains a proposition which, I think, ought not to be adopted. It selects a place, having a convenient water-communication with the Atlantic. Now, it may be just and expedient to fix upon a place at some distance from a navigable river, therefore it may not agree with the intention of the committee. As to the principles which are to guide our decisions, they are as well expressed in the propositions of the gentleman from Pennsylvania as in the substitute, and as free from ambiguity.

The question on Mr. Lee's motion was taken, and determined in the negative; yeas 17, nays 34.

Mr. Tucker declared, that the majority for fixing upon any set of principles whatever, could not govern his mind with regard to the fact. If, on the whole, he did not think that place best, which the principles adopted seemed to lead to, he certainly could not vote for it. Of what use, then, was it to establish principles which could not govern the conduct of the House? But the principles offered are vague, and lead to no certain conclusion. What is the centre of wealth, population, and territory? Is there a common centre? Territory has one centre, population another, and wealth a third. Now, is it intended to determine a centre from these three centres? This was not a practicable mode of settling the place; and it was to be doubted whether the centre of wealth ought at all to be considered. The centre of population is variable, and a decision on that principle now, might establish the seat of Government at a very inconvenient place to the next generation. The centre of territory may be ascertained, but that will lead to a situation entirely ineligible; consequently, whether these centres were considered separately or together, they furnish no satisfactory direction, no possible guide to the committee. The only way, then, to come at a result yielding satisfaction, would be to consider the several places to be proposed, according to their merits; and this would be done by gentlemen in the course of the business. He was, therefore, against settling any principles by vote.

Mr. Madison.—I move to strike out the word wealth, because I do not conceive this to be a consideration that ought to have much weight in determining the place where the seat of Government ought to be. The two other principles, I admit, are such as ought to have their influence; but why wealth should is not so clear. Government is intended for the accommodation of the citizens at large; an equal facility to communicate with Government is due to all ranks; whether to transmit their grievances or requests, or to receive those blessings which the Government is intended to dispense. The rich are certainly not less able than those who are indigent to resort to the seat of Government, or to establish the means necessary for receiving those advantages to which, as citizens, they are entitled.

I should rather suppose, if any distinctions are to be made, or superior advantages to be enjoyed from the presence of the Government, that the Government ought rather to move toward those who are the least able to move toward it, and who stand most in need of its protection.

The question on this motion was taken, and passed in the negative; yeas 22, nays 28.

The question on Mr. Scott's motion was then taken, and adopted; yeas 32, nays 18.

Mr. Goodhue's motion was now taken into consideration.

Mr. Lee hoped that gentlemen would show how the banks of the Susquehanna conformed with the principles laid down in the resolution adopted by the House; how it communicated with the navigation of the Atlantic, and how it was connected with the Western Territory. He hoped they would also point out its other advantages, respecting salubrity of air and fertility of soil. He expected all these advantages ought to be combined in the place of the residence of the Federal Government, and every other requisite to cement the common interest of America.

Mr. Hartley wished some gentleman had risen to satisfy the inquiries of the honorable member, who could have given a description of the advantages of that situation in better language than himself. But as no gentleman had offered to undertake the subject, he thought himself bound to make him an answer; and he trusted, in doing this, he should clearly show that all the advantages contemplated would result from adopting the motion. But he wished it had extended further, and selected the place most convenient on the banks of the Susquehanna, as then the answer would be more pointed and decisive. He had already mentioned Wright's Ferry, and would consider that as the proper spot. Now, Wright's Ferry lies on the east bank of the Susquehanna, about thirty-five miles from navigable water; and, from a few miles above, is navigable to the source of the river, at Lake Otsego, in the upper part of the State of New York. The Tioga branch is navigable a very considerable distance up, and is but a few miles from the Genesee, which empties into Lake Ontario. The Juniata is navigable, and nearly connects with the Kisskemanetas, and that with the Ohio; besides the West Branch connects with the Alleghany River; forming a communication with the distant parts even of Kentucky, with very little land carriage. The great body of water in that river renders it navigable at all seasons of the year. With respect to the settlements in the neighborhood of Wright's Ferry, he would venture to assert it was as thickly inhabited as any part of the country in North America. As to the quality of the soil, it was inferior to none in the world, and though that was saying a good deal, it was not more than he believed a fact. In short, from all the information he had acquired, and that was not inconsiderable, he ventured to pronounce, that in point of soil, water, and the advantages of nature, there was no part of the country superior. And if honorable gentlemen were disposed to pay much attention to a dish of fish, he could assure them their table might be furnished with fine and good from the waters of the Susquehanna; perhaps not in such variety as in this city, but the deficiency was well made up in the abundance which liberal nature presented them of her various products. It was in the neighborhood of two large and populous towns, one of them the largest inland town in America. Added to all these advantages, it possessed that of centrality, perhaps, in a superior degree to any which could be proposed.

Mr. Lee asked the gentleman what was the distance of Wright's Ferry from Yorktown, and whether that town, as it had once accommodated Congress, could do it again? If a permanent seat is established, why not go to it immediately? And why, let me ask, shall we go and fix upon the banks of a rapid river, when we can have a more healthful situation? And here he would inquire if the Codorus Creek, which runs through Yorktown into the Susquehanna, was, or could be made navigable?

Mr. Hartley answered, that Yorktown was ten miles from the Ferry, that it contained about five hundred houses, besides a number of large and ornamental public buildings; that there was no doubt, but if Congress deemed it expedient to remove immediately there, they could be conveniently accommodated; but as gentlemen appeared to be inclined to fix the permanent residence on the east banks of the Susquehanna, he was very well satisfied it should be there.

Mr. Madison.—The gentleman who brought forward this motion was candid enough to tell us, that measures have been preconcerted out of doors, and that the point was determined; that more than half the territory of the United States, and nearly half its inhabitants have been disposed of, not only without their consent, but without their knowledge. After this, I hope the gentleman will extend his candor so much further, as to show that the general principles now to be established are applicable to their determination, in order that we may reconcile this fate to our own minds, and submit to it with some degree of complacency.

I hope, if the seat of Government is to be at or near the centre of wealth, population, and extent of territory, that gentlemen will show that the permanent seat there proposed is near the permanent centre of wealth, population and extent of territory, and the temporary seat, near the temporary centre. I think we may, with good reason, call upon gentlemen for an explanation on these points, in order that we may know the ground on which the great question is decided, and be able to assign to our constituents satisfactory reasons for what some of them may consider a sacrifice of their interest, and be instrumental in reconciling them, as far as possible, to their destiny.

Mr. Goodhue thought the question, stated by the gentleman from Virginia, was proper to be asked, and proper to be answered. The gentlemen from the eastward, as he said before, were in favor of the Susquehanna; that in contemplating the geographical centre of territory, they found the banks of that river to be near the place. In point of population, they considered the Susquehanna was south of that centre; but, from a spirit of conciliation, they were inclined to go there, although the principle and their own convenience would not lead them beyond the banks of the Delaware. He believed the centre of population would not vary considerably for ages yet to come, because he supposed it would constantly incline more toward the Eastern, and manufacturing States, than toward the Southern, and agricultural ones.

Mr. Jackson.—I was originally opposed to the question coming forward, and am so still. I thought the subject ought not to be touched till the States, who have not yet acceded to the Union, might have an opportunity of giving their voice. I agree with the gentleman from Virginia. I am sorry that the people should learn that this matter has been precipitated; that they should learn, that the members from New England and New York had fixed on a seat of Government for the United States. This is not proper language to go out to freemen. Jealousies have already gone abroad. This language will blow the coals of sedition, and endanger the Union. I would ask, if the other members of the Union are not also to be consulted? Are the eastern members to dictate in this business, and fix the seat of Government of the United States? Why not also fix the principles of Government? Why not come forward, and demand of us the power of Legislation, and say, give us up your privileges, and we will govern you? If one part has the power to fix the seat of Government, they may as well take the Government from the other. This looks like aristocracy: not the united, but the partial voice of America is to decide. How can gentlemen answer for this, who call themselves representatives, on the broad basis of national interest?

I deny the fact of the territorial centrality of the place proposed. From New York, to the nearest part of the province of Maine, it is two hundred and fifty miles; and from New York, to the nearest part of the upper district of Georgia, from which my colleague, General Matthews, comes, is eleven hundred miles; and from the proposed place on the Susquehanna, it is four hundred miles to the nearest part of Maine, and nine hundred to the nearest part of that district; the proportion is more than two to one. But the gentlemen should have an eye to the population of Georgia; one of the finest countries in the world cannot but rapidly extend her population; nothing but her being harassed by the inroads of savages has checked her amazing increase, which must, under the auspices of peace and safety, people her western regions. Georgia will soon be as populous as any State in the Union. Calculations ought not to be made on its present situation.

North Carolina is not yet in the Union, and perhaps the place may give umbrage to her, which ought, at this moment, to be cautiously avoided. I should, therefore, think it most advisable to postpone the decision for this session at least. But, if we are to decide, I own, I think the Potomac a better situation than the Susquehanna, and I hope it will be selected for that purpose.

Mr. Goodhue.—If gentlemen examine this subject with candor, they will find that the banks of the Susquehanna are as near the geographical centre as can be fixed upon. It is from the extreme of the Province of Maine about seven hundred and sixty miles; to Savannah, in Georgia, about seven hundred and sixty; and about seven hundred and thirty, or seven hundred and forty, from Kentucky; so that it is rather south of the centre of territory.

Mr. Lawrence.—When this subject was under discussion some time since, it appeared to be the wish of gentlemen from the eastward, and of the members from this State, that the question should not now be decided. They urged several reasons why it would be improper. I thought those reasons weighty, and was for postponing the consideration till our next meeting. But it was answered, that the business was important; that the citizens of the United States were uneasy and anxious; that as factions did not now exist, it was the proper time to decide the question. What was the representation to do? Was it not necessary for them to consult, and fix upon a proper place?

They are, in a degree, disinterested, because they have no expectation that the seat of Government will be fixed in any of the Eastern States. On the other hand, there is a well-grounded expectation, that it will be fixed either in Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, or Jersey. We are called on to determine a question in which we conceive ourselves unbiased, and shall decide it on those principles that will reflect honor on the House. I trust it will be found that we have fixed on those principles, and that this resolution will be confirmed by Congress. We do not decide for the Union, nor for the Southern States, we decide for ourselves; and if our reasons are substantial, I trust that gentlemen will meet us in the determination.

There are several principles which have been agreed to in the general resolution; and I believe it will be shown, with exactness, that the place proposed will come within these principles. The first respects population. Is the House to consider the present, or the expected population? The resolution has a determinate meaning; it speaks of the population at the present period; and to calculate on this principle no gentleman can say is unjust. The representation in this House is itself a demonstration of it. The population of this country may be pretty safely determined by the proportion of representatives in this House; for it is established on this ground. I therefore believe, that the principle of population inclines to this place, in preference to a more southern situation.

But, in taking the principle of territory, are the House to calculate on the uninhabited wilderness? Shall they take the Lake of the Woods on one side, and the Missouri on the other, and find a geographical centre? If so, to what an extent must they go? The inhabited and populated part of the country ought chiefly to be considered. If St. Croix is taken as the eastern limit, and St. Mary as the southern, the centre of the line will be found to fall pretty near the Susquehanna.

Mr. Sedgwick.—I beg leave to ask, if there really is any impropriety in gentlemen's consulting together, who have a uniformity of interest, upon a question which has been said to be of such infinite importance? My colleague has barely stated that such a consultation has taken place, and that, in consequence of it, men's minds have been induced to run in a current. Is there any thing wrong in this? Let those, then, who are determined not to consult, nor have any communication on such a subject, decide for themselves. I should think myself lost to that regard I owe to my country, and to my immediate constituents in particular, should I abstract myself from the contemplation of the benefits that would flow from knowing the feelings and sentiments of those with whom I am to act. Instead of being an evidence to that aristocratic spirit which has been mentioned, it is only a proof that men, attentive to their business, had preferred that way, which every honest man had in view. I have contemplated the subject with great anxiety, and though I cannot declare that my local situation has had no influence on my mind, yet I will say I endeavored to prevent its having any. I believe that the true interests of the country will be best answered by taking a position eastward and northward of the Susquehanna.

The Delaware is one extreme, the Potomac another; but when I reflect how anxious some gentlemen are for the one, and some for the other, I am willing to accommodate both parties, by advancing to a middle ground, to which I hope the public mind will be reconciled. I was also influenced in fixing this opinion, by the sentiment of the celebrated Montesquieu. He had laid it down, that in a country partaking of northern and southern interests, of a poor and productive soil, the centre and the influence of Government ought to incline to that part where the former circumstances prevailed; because necessity stimulates to industry, produces good habits and a surplus of labor; because such parts are the nurseries of soldiers and sailors, and the sources of that energy which is the best security of the Government.

The Susquehanna is, in my opinion, south-west of the centre of wealth, population, and resources of every kind. I would beg leave, gentlemen, to suggest another idea. In my view, on the principles of population, the Susquehanna is far beyond the centre; for I do not think it just, on this subject, to take the constitutional computation. Will any gentlemen pretend, that men, who are merely the subject of property or wealth, should be taken into the estimate; that the slaves of the country, men who have no rights to protect, (being deprived of them all,) should be taken into view, in determining the centre of Government? If they were considered, gentlemen might as well estimate the black cattle of New England.

I would ask, if it is of no importance to take a position in which the credit of the Government may procure those supplies that its necessities might require? Will the strength and riches of the country be to the north or to the south of the Susquehanna? Certainly to the north.

It is the opinion of all the Eastern States, that the climate of the Potomac is not only unhealthy, but destructive to northern constitutions. It is of importance to attend to this, for whether it be true or false, such are the public prepossessions. Vast numbers of Eastern adventures have gone to the Southern States, and all have found their graves there; they have met destruction as soon as they arrived. These accounts have been spread, and filled the Northern people with apprehension.

Mr. Vining.—Although I must acknowledge myself a party to the bargain, yet I had no share in making it. It is to me an unexpected bargain. Though the interest of the State which I have the honor to represent is involved in it, I am yet to learn of the committee, whether Congress are to tickle the trout on the stream of the Codorus, to build their sumptuous palaces on the banks of the Potomac, or to admire commerce with her expanded wings, on the waters of the Delaware. I have, on this occasion, educated my mind to impartiality, and have endeavored to chastise its prejudices.

I confess to the House, and to the world, that, viewing this subject, with all its circumstances, I am in favor of the Potomac. I wish the seat of Government to be fixed there; because I think the interest, the honor, and the greatness of this country require it. I look on it as the centre from which those streams are to flow that are to animate and invigorate the body politic. From thence, it appears to me, the rays of Government will most naturally diverge to the extremities of the Union. I declare, that I look on the Western Territory in an awful and striking point of view. To that region the unpolished sons of earth are flowing from all quarters; men, to whom the protection of the laws, and the controlling force of the Government, are equally necessary. From this great consideration, I conclude that the banks of the Potomac are the proper station.

Mr. Seney mentioned Peach Bottom, on the Susquehanna, about fifteen miles above tide-water, as the proper place.

Mr. Goodhue did not wish the particular spot pointed out, because some inconvenience would result from such a measure; however, he was free to declare, that his own idea was in favor of a situation near Wright's Ferry.

Mr. Heister moved to insert Harrisburg in the resolution. He conceived the spot to be more eligible than any yet mentioned; from hence there was an uninterrupted navigation to the sources of the river, and through this place runs the great Western road leading to Fort Pitt, and the Western Territory. A water communication can be effected at small expense with Philadelphia. The waters of the Swetara, a branch of the Susquehanna, about eight miles below Harrisburg, run to the north-east, and are navigable fifteen miles from thence to the Tulpehoken, a branch of the Schuylkill; a canal may be cut across, of about a mile and a half, the ground has been actually surveyed, and found practicable; this will unite the Susquehanna and Delaware, and open a passage for the produce of an immense tract of country. It is but little further from Philadelphia than is Wright's Ferry; and, on many accounts, he thought it a preferable situation for the permanent seat of Government.

Mr. Madison meant to pay due attention to every argument that could be urged on this important question. Facts had been asserted, the impressions of which he wished to be erased, if they were not well founded. It has been said, that the communication with the Western Territory, by the Susquehanna, is more convenient than by the Potomac. I apprehend this is not the case; and the propriety of our decision will depend, in a great measure, on the superior advantages of one of these two streams. It is agreed, on all hands, that we ought to have some regard to the convenience of the Atlantic navigation. Now, to embrace this object, a position must be taken on some navigable river; to favor the communication with the Western Territory, its arms ought likewise to extend themselves towards that region. I did not suppose it would have been necessary to bring forward charts and maps, as has been done by others, to show the committee the comparative situation of those rivers. I flattered myself it was sufficiently understood, to enable us to decide the question of superiority; but I am now inclined to believe, that gentlemen have embraced an error, and I hope they are not determined to vote under improper impressions. I venture to pledge myself for the demonstration, that the communication with the Western Territory, by the Potomac, is more certain and convenient than the other. And if the question is as important as it is admitted to be, gentlemen will not shut their ears to information; they will not precipitate the decision; or if they regard the satisfaction of our constituents, they will allow them to be informed of all the facts and arguments that lead to the decision of a question in which the general and particular interests of all parts of the Union are involved.

Mr. Stone found gentlemen had determined on a step that was not generally liked; he wished, therefore, the committee to rise, and give all of them an opportunity of trying to mend the bargain that had been made; perhaps they might find, upon reflection, that they ought to decide the question on more national principles than they seemed yet to be governed by.

Mr. Seney could not say how far the motion was agreeable to every part of America; but he believed it would be acceptable to a very considerable part of the State he had the honor to represent.

Mr. Sumter was in favor of the committee's rising, in order to give gentlemen time to ascertain the facts necessary to guide them to a decision. There was one impropriety which struck him forcibly; the resolution adopted as a principle that the seat of Government ought to be in a convenient place for the navigation of the Atlantic Ocean. But the situation mentioned in the resolution under consideration had no communication whatever with the Atlantic navigation. It had been said, that the Susquehanna afforded the most convenient communication with the Western Territory. He believed the Hudson possessed superior advantages; it connected with the country about the Lakes and the Ohio. From New York to Albany was navigable; from thence to Schenectady, there was a short portage; after ascending Schenectady, there was a short portage of half a mile to the Mohawk; from thence, another short portage to Wood Creek, and thence into Lake Ontario, which connects with Lake Erie; and from thence are portages to the Wabash, Miami, Muskingum or Alleghany, all falling into the Ohio. But the Potomac possessed advantages superior to these; and was, both on account of communicating with the Atlantic and Western Territory, much to be preferred to the Susquehanna. He assured gentlemen that he was unbiased in giving a preference to the Potomac; because, if he studied his own convenience, he should consider New York as more eligible than either. It accommodated the Atlantic navigation in a superior manner, and had its pretensions to a connection with the Western waters, as he had already shown. He hoped, however, that the subject would be debated with candor and good temper, and decided in the way most likely to promote the general interests and harmony of the Union.

Mr. Sherman was against taking up the subject so soon; but since it had been determined against him,—gentlemen, he presumed, had endeavored to make up their minds,—he had turned his attention to it, and was now prepared to decide.

Mr. Clymer knew the advantages possessed by the Susquehanna in communicating with the Western country; they were mentioned by his colleague; but, with the additional circumstance that the Juniata branch afforded a convenient navigation to a road lately laid out by the State of Pennsylvania, which connected with the Kisskaminetas, from whence was a short voyage down the Alleghany, and shorter still down that to the Ohio, at Pittsburg. He questioned much if the navigation by the Potomac was so convenient.

Mr. Stone did not mean to govern his vote on this occasion by what was said to be the sense of the citizens of Maryland; because they were, he apprehended, divided in opinion. One part or the other would be particularly benefited, as the seat of Government should be fixed either on the Susquehanna or Potomac, because those rivers watered its territory. Perhaps the majority of the present inhabitants would prefer the Susquehanna; but as their settlements extended westward, and the population increased, the majority would be favored by the Potomac.

Mr. Seney did not mean to determine this question on the principle of benefiting, exclusively, the citizens of Maryland; he considered himself as a Representative of the Union, and should decide on the principle of general convenience.

Mr. Tucker hoped the committee would rise, in order to give gentlemen time to consider the subject maturely, and to prepare themselves to come forward and discuss, fairly and fully, the advantages and disadvantages of the rival places. He could not believe they meant to decide a question of this importance on the superficial discussion which had taken place.

The question, on the committee's rising, was now put, and it passed in the negative; for it 23, against it 27.

Mr. Stone.—We are called upon, sir, to determine a question that has not been introduced to our notice more than two hours and a half; a question too, as admitted on both sides, of the highest importance to the interests and harmony of the Union. I cannot help thinking it a hardship to be compelled so abruptly to a decision; but since it must be the case, I shall take the liberty of suggesting a few of my thoughts, in order to justify the vote I mean to give.

There are a variety of considerations and doubts in my mind, respecting the two rivers that have been mentioned. These doubts are increased when a particular place is named upon one of them; but had gentlemen told us, that they had settled this point also, it might have precluded any sort of debate whatever; because when an agreement had taken place, not only as to the banks of the Susquehanna, but as to the favored spot on those banks, we should not have entertained a single hope that we could have changed the position. But, as gentlemen differ among themselves on this point, perhaps they will permit us to participate with them in selecting the place most likely to give general satisfaction. But how can they suppose we are prepared on this head, without a general consideration of all the places which may offer themselves along the east bank of the river.

I am not apprised, sir, of the extent of this continent certainly, because I never calculated it by figures, or measured it on the map; but if there is the smallest degree of accuracy in the draft that has been handed about, no man, who takes a view of it, in my opinion, will doubt a single moment, whether the Susquehanna is the river, which nearly equally divides the territory of the United States, in its extent north and south, that separates, in equal parts, the country east and west. The eastern part, I take it, is little, if any thing, more than half as large as what lies west. We observe that the course of the main branch tends more toward the Atlantic Ocean, than it does toward the Western Territory; but even its western inclination goes only toward the lakes Erie and Ontario, through the middle of which runs the boundary line of the United States. How can this, then, be supposed a direct or convenient communication with that part of the country which is usually termed, and is in fact, the Western Territory?

In fixing the permanent residence, we ought not only to have in view the immediate importance of the States, but also what is likely to be their weight at a future day; not that we should consider a visionary importance, or chimerical expectation, but such a one as can be demonstrated with as much certainty as effects follow their causes. I apprehend the increase of population to the eastward is merely conditional; there is nothing to invite people to settle in the northern parts of this continent, in preference to the southern; even if they were settled there, every principle which encourages population would operate to induce them to emigrate to the southern and western parts. We know the northern climate is severe, the winters long, and summers short, and that the soil is less fertile. Were we not assuredly acquainted that this was the case on the continent of America, we should be led to the same conclusion, by reasoning from our knowledge of the other parts of the globe. Men multiply in proportion to the means of support, and this is more abundant in a mild than a severe climate. Hence, I infer, that the climate, and means of subsistence, will ever operate as a stimulus to promote the population of the Southern, in preference to the Northern States. This doctrine is daily exemplified. If we advert to the situation of that part of the Western country, called Kentucky, and compare its increase of population since the war, with any part of the Eastern States, we shall find men multiplied there beyond any thing known in America; and if we consider its natural advantages, we shall conclude it will be an important part of the Union. The river which has been mentioned by the southern gentlemen is, as far as I am acquainted, extremely well calculated to furnish Government with the key of that country; and a river, I believe, richer in its exports than any I have contemplated on the face of the earth.

A call was now made to order, and Mr. Stone sat down. A desultory conversation took place on the point of order. It was contended, that the question was on the insertion of Harrisburg, in the proposition offered by Mr. Goodhue; whereas Mr. Stone was speaking to the main question.

Messrs. Carroll, Lee and Madison insisted that Mr. Stone was in order, inasmuch as Mr. Heister's motion necessarily involved the main question, and was inseparable from it.

But it was decided by the Chair to be out of order; whereupon the question was taken, without further debate, on inserting Harrisburg, and it was determined in the negative.

The main question being now before the committee,

Mr. Stone proceeded. I feel myself unhappy to be obliged to address gentlemen, who are not disposed to attend to any thing I may say; but as gentlemen have chosen this time for discussing the subject, they will not think it improper in me to persist in detailing my ideas. When I was interrupted by the call to order, I was about to show the importance of the Potomac to the United States. Its waters afford a practical, safe, and short communication with the Ohio and Mississippi, beyond comparison preferable to the Susquehanna. If it is intended that the people settled upon those great rivers should communicate with the General Government, after ascending the former they must proceed a vast distance northward, up the Alleghany, against a rapid stream, before they can reach the Susquehanna. I am inclined to believe a land-carriage would be better than such a laborious round-about water communication. Now the Potomac, as I am informed, connects with the Youghiogheny, a river less rapid than the Alleghany, and is itself communicable with the Atlantic. In this case, the Potomac will be the highway for such vast quantities of wealth as to give every superiority; and, however we may determine at this day, it will not be long before the seat of Government must be carried thither. The vast population that is extending itself through the Western country requires that the Government should take a position favorable to its convenience; because new settlements at a vast distance from the old are more exposed to temptation than others; but in the present case, it is proper for us to guard against the operation of a foreign country, which seems to be forming settlements near our frontiers to rival ours. It may be the more necessary, inasmuch as we ought to keep the boundary line distinct between the Spaniards and savages, as I fear, do what we will, we run the greatest risk of entering into a quarrel with them; for, it is well known, that emigrants, in forming new settlements, are not much concerned about an ascertainment of jurisdiction; they are generally bold, enterprising spirits, who feel some aversion to strict government; it is therefore necessary that the Government should approach toward them, and be placed in such situation as would give it the greatest possible influence over them. Beside their contiguity to a rival nation, they are independent in their condition; they want hardly any thing this country can give; their soil is rich and fertile; their exports will furnish them with every foreign article from the southward which they can require. Their interests are more strongly connected with the Southern States than the Southern States are with the Eastern. The advantages of this Government are felt, in a peculiar manner, by the mercantile and commercial States; the agricultural States have not the same strong reasons for maintaining the Union. Hence we may apprehend that the Western country may be inclined, as it advances its importance, to drop off. The Susquehanna is no bond by which to hold them; its direction is more northern than westerly. Upon the whole, I am inclined to believe that it would not give general satisfaction at the present day; and the inequality would daily grow more striking, until we should be compelled to remove again to where there was a probability of finding a centre of territory as well as population. I have thrown out these ideas in a crude manner, but gentlemen have forced me to it by their urgency to take the question; I could wish to be allowed time for further discussion, and I believe it would be no ill sacrifice of a day, if we were to put off the determination till to-morrow.

Mr. Lee observed, that since gentlemen would not admit of a moment's delay; since they seemed to declare, that they had settled the matter without giving an opportunity for full discussion; since the House were hurried to a decision on a point that involved the welfare of the community, duty to his country, duty to the better half of the territory of the United States, called on him to come forward with another proposition.

He then moved to strike out the words "east bank of the Susquehanna," and to insert a clause to this effect; that, whereas the banks of the Potomac united all the aforesaid advantages, with fertility of soil, salubrity of climate, &c. Resolved, That the permanent seat of Government ought to be fixed somewhere on the banks of the said river.

He flattered himself that these two rival places would be considered with an attention that would do honor to the House; that their several advantages would be fully compared, and that such a decision would result as would be for the lasting benefit of the United States.

He then stated at large the comparative advantages of the Potomac; its great and increasing improvements; the extent of its navigation; its direct communication with the Western country, and its easy communication with the Eastern and Southern States.

The House, he said, were now to determine whether regard was to be had to the people of the Western Territory, to the greater portion of the territory of the Union; in point of climate, it was extremely salubrious; in fertility of soil, it was exceeded by no country on earth. Thither would emigrants flock from all quarters.

He asked whether this Government was intended for a temporary or a lasting one? Whether it was to be a fleeting vision, or to continue for ages? He hoped the result would proclaim that the Government was calculated for perpetuity; and that the common interests of the country had been consulted. If that was done, the Government would be removed to the Potomac; if not, we should stop short of it; and what would be the consequence? He said he was averse to sound alarms, or introduce terrors into the House; but if they were well founded, he thought it his duty. It was well known with what difficulty the constitution was adopted by the State of Virginia. It was then said, that there would be confederacies of the States east of Pennsylvania, which would destroy the Southern States; that they would unite their councils in discussing questions relative to their particular interests, and the Southern States would be disregarded. To these suspicions, it was answered, no! It was contended that the magnanimous policy, arising from mutual interests and common dangers would unite all the States, and make them pursue objects of general good. But if it should be found that there were such confederacies as were predicted, that the Northern States did consult their partial interests, and form combinations to support them, without regarding their Southern brethren, they would be alarmed, and the faith of all south of the Potomac would be shaken. It would be shown to them, that what had been predicted by the enemies to the constitution had come to pass; that the Northern States had not waited till the Government was organized before they sacrificed the Southern people to their own interests.

Let the seat of Government be fixed where it may, Virginia had not solicited Congress to place the seat of Government in her State. She only contended, that the interests of the Southern and Western country should be consulted; and he declared that these interests would be sacrificed, if Congress fixed upon any place but the Potomac. The greater part of Virginia was distant from that river. Many parts were not nearer than New Jersey. She wished not to have the seat on the Potomac but for the general good; it was not for the benefit of that State, but for the benefit of the Union.

Mr. Lawrence said, it was improper and unnecessary to hold out terrors to the fancy of members. The true way to convince them, was to address their understandings. He was certain there was no dangerous confederacy which the gentleman had talked of; and believed the conduct of the Northern States would bear the strictest scrutiny; that, if probed to the bottom, it would be found fair and candid. He remembered in the debate upon the Tonnage bill, a gentleman from Virginia observed, that could the moderate and equal policy of that day's proceedings have been foreseen in the convention of Virginia, many objections that were there produced against the constitution would have been thereby obviated.

He trusted, that, in conducting the business before them, gentlemen could find no cause, eventually, to entertain different sentiments from what he then delivered.

Mr. Madison.—I acknowledge, that, on a former day, I made the observation alluded to with singular complacency. I said, I had found a moderation and liberality prevailing here, which I sincerely believed, if foreseen in the convention of Virginia, would have obviated a very powerful objection to the adoption of the Federal constitution. But, give me leave now to say, that if a Prophet had risen in that body, and brought the declarations and proceedings of this day into view, that I as firmly believe Virginia might not have been a part of the Union at this moment.

A motion was now made for the committee to rise, and several gentlemen said, they wished it to prevail, in order that an opportunity might be afforded for a fuller discussion.

Mr. Sedgwick hoped the committee would not rise. Will it be contended, that the majority shall not govern; and shall the minority, because they cannot carry their points, accuse the House of want of candor? Are we to be told, that an important State would not have joined the Union, had they known what would have been the proceedings of this House. Gentlemen have brought forward this business themselves; they have precipitated the House into it. We prayed, we supplicated for time; and now gentlemen, from some causes not explained, wish to postpone the matter, in order to have time to deliberate. He believed that a deliberation of six weeks would not alter a single opinion, and therefore it was not proper to consume the public time uselessly.

Mr. Madison.—When I alluded to the proceedings of this day, I contemplated the manner in which the business was conducted; and though I acknowledge that a majority ought to govern, yet they have no authority to deprive the minority of a constitutional right; they have no authority to debar us the right of free debate. An important and interesting question being under consideration, we ought to have time allowed for its discussion. Facts have been stated on one side, and members ought to be indulged on the other with an opportunity of collecting and ascertaining other facts. We have a right to bring forward all the arguments which we think can, and ought to have an influence on the decision. It is unusual, on a partial discussion, even of questions of inferior magnitude, to decide in the course of a single day. How, then, can gentlemen reconcile their conduct of this day to the liberality they have hitherto shown? This manner of proceeding would mark a genius in this body which will contradict the expectations of its warmest friends. I hope nothing will be fixed by a hasty determination. I said before, and repeat it again, that I wish to make some observations on what has been advanced, for which at present there is not time. But, if there was, I do not wish to address a determined and silent majority. No, sir, if this be the temper of to-day, let me appeal to a more favorable temper to-morrow. If gentlemen refuse this appeal, I must submit; but I will, to the last moment, assert my right, and remonstrate against a precipitate decision.

Mr. Burke observed, that the Northern States had had a fortnight to manage this matter, and would not now allow the Southern States a day. What was the conduct of gentlemen? A league has been formed between the Northern States and Pennsylvania.

Mr. Fitzsimons interrupted Mr. Burke, and denied the assertion, as it respected Pennsylvania.

Mr. Burke then proceeded, and said that the Eastern members had combined with some other States, he could not positively say which, but the first information that was furnished was given this morning, every gentleman had heard it as well as himself, but that had nothing to do with his object; he wanted time to get information; and called on gentlemen, for the honor of the House, to comply with this request.

Mr. Wadsworth said, he rejoiced to hear the gentlemen calling for time, and crying out fair play. He remembered when he entreated the gentleman who spoke last, and others, not to precipitate themselves into this situation; his entreaties had been of no avail. Knowing that the pride of a majority was one of those things to which he had to submit, he, with all the New England members, solicited for time. With respect to bargaining, he believed that it would reflect no honor on either side of the House. He said he must either give his vote now, or submit to more bargaining. He was willing that the whole business of bargaining should be exposed; he would not excuse himself; he did not dare to go to the Potomac. He feared that the whole of New England would consider the Union as destroyed. Since the matter had been so prematurely brought on, since members had been forced, and, as it were, dragged by the throat to this business, he hoped it was now finished.

The question was now put, on the rising of the committee, and carried: Whereupon the committee rose and reported progress, and then the House adjourned.

Thursday, September 4.

Seat of Government.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the Resolution for establishing a permanent Seat of Government, Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

Mr. Stone wished to hear the sentiments of the gentleman who first brought forward this business: he expected to derive some advantage from that gentleman's knowledge of the country, which, he presumed, was pretty accurate, as it was derived from actual observation.

After waiting some time,

Mr. Stone repeated his request, under an apprehension that he had not the honor of being heard by the worthy gentleman.

Mr. Goodhue rose and said, he had given his sentiments yesterday, but, if the gentleman desired it, he was ready to repeat them.

Mr. Stone said, he addressed his request to the gentleman from Pennsylvania.

Mr. Scott.—I understood the gentleman so, and I have no objection to giving my sentiments on the occasion. The resolution I laid on the table has been honored with the vote of a majority of the committee. It contains such principles as, I believe, ought to govern in the settlement of the grand question: they have declared, that they mean to be governed by these principles, and this is a declaration to the world that their hearts are good. What may follow in consequence of that resolution, cannot impeach the motive, it can only prove, that our heads are uninformed; an error of the head is pardonable, but an error of the heart is not easily forgiven.

Whether the spot which has been moved is the right spot or not, seems to be the matter under inquiry. I had prepared myself with documents, which I should have produced had they been needed, to prove, that the State I have the honor to represent involves, within its limits the centre of wealth and population of the United States, taking the sea-coast for a guide; for all that has been said of the importance of the Western country, has not prevailed on me to imagine, that all the vacant territory should be taken into view, the same as the settled and cultivated parts; my resolution had no other idea but that the Atlantic States should consent to go as near that territory as their convenience would allow. I am convinced that going further than would suit the Atlantic States would injure the Western country itself.

Mr. Madison said, if this delay should not have produced any alteration in the sentiments of the gentlemen, it will at least soften that hard decision which seems to threaten the friends of the Potomac. He hoped that all would concur in the great principle on which they ought to conduct and decide this business; an equal attention to the rights of the community. No government, he said, not even the most despotic, could, beyond a certain point, violate that idea of justice and equal right which prevailed in the mind of the community. In Republican Governments, justice and equality form the basis of the system; and perhaps the structure can rest on no other that the wisdom of man can devise. In a Federal Republic, give me leave to say, it is even more necessary and proper, that a sacred regard should be paid to these considerations. For beyond the sense of the community at large, which has its full agency in such a system, no such Government can act with safety. The Federal ingredient involves local distinctions, which not only produce local jealousies, but give, at the same time, a greater local capacity to support, and insist upon equitable demands. In a Confederacy of States, in which the people operate, in one respect as citizens, and in another as forming political communities, the local Governments will ever possess a keener sense and capacity, to take advantage of those powers, on which the protection of local rights depends. If these great rights be the basis of republics, and if there be a double necessity of attending to them in a Federal Republic, it is further to be considered, that there is no one right, of which the people can judge with more ease and certainty, and of which they will judge with more jealousy, than of the establishment of the permanent seat of Government; and I am persuaded, that however often this subject may be discussed in the representative body, or however the attention of the committee may be drawn to it, the observations I have made will be more and more verified. We see the operation of this sentiment fully exemplified in what has taken place in the several States. In every instance where the seat of Government has been placed in an uncentral position, we have seen the people struggling to place it where it ought to be. In some instances they have not yet succeeded, but I believe they will succeed in all. In many they have actually gained their point.

With respect, however, to the Federal Government, there is one consideration that shows, in a peculiar manner, the necessity and policy of paying a strict attention to this principle. One of the greatest objections which has been made by the opponents of the system, which has been allowed most weight by its friends, is the extent of the United States. It has been asserted by some, and almost feared by others, that within so great a space, no free Government can exist. I hope and trust, that the opinion is erroneous; but, at the same time, I acknowledge it to have a certain degree of force, and it is incumbent on those who wish well to the Union, to diminish this inconvenience as much as possible. The way to diminish it, is to place the Government in that spot which will be least removed from every part of the empire. Carry it to a remote position, and it will be equivalent to an extension of our limits; and if our limits are already extended so far as warrants, in any degree, the apprehension before mentioned, we ought to take care not to extend them further.

The seat of Government is of great importance, if you consider the diffusion of wealth that proceeds from this source. I presume that the expenditures which will take place, where the Government will be established by those who are immediately concerned in its administration, and by others who may resort to it, will not be less than half a million dollars a year. It is to be regretted that those who may be most convenient to the centre should enjoy this advantage to a higher degree than others; but the inequality is an evil imposed by necessity; we diminish it as we place the source from which those emanations of wealth are to proceed as near the centre as possible.

If we consider, sir, the effects of Legislative power on the aggregate community, we must feel equal inducements to look for the centre, in order to find the proper seat of Government. Those who are most adjacent to the seat of Legislation will always possess advantages over others. An earlier knowledge of the laws, a greater influence in enacting them, better opportunities for anticipating them, and a thousand other circumstances, will give a superiority to those who are thus situated. If it were possible to promulgate our laws, by some instantaneous operation, it would be of less consequence in that point of view where the Government might be placed; but if, on the contrary, time is necessary for this purpose, we ought, as far as possible, to put every part of the community on a level.

If we consider the influence of the Government in its Executive Department, there is no less reason to conclude that it ought to be placed in the centre of the Union. It ought to be in a situation to command information relative to every part of the Union, to watch every conjuncture, to seize every circumstance that can be improved. The Executive eye ought to be placed where it can best see the dangers which may threaten, and the Executive arm, whence it may be extended most effectually to the protection of every part. Perhaps it is peculiarly necessary, that, in looking for the position, we should keep our eye as much as possible towards our Western borders; for a long time dangers will be most apt to assail that quarter of the Union.

He was sure, that if justice required us to take any one position in preference to another, we had every inducement, both of interest and of prudence to fix on the Potomac, as most satisfactory to our Western brethren. It is impossible to reflect a moment on the possible severance of that branch of the Union without seeing the mischiefs which such an event must create. The area of the United States divided into two equal parts, will leave, perhaps, one half on the west side of the Alleghany Mountains. From the fertility of the soil, the fineness of the climate, and every thing that can favor a growing population, we may suppose the settlement will go on with every degree of rapidity which our imagination can conceive.

If the calculation be just, that we double in twenty-five years, we shall speedily behold an astonishing mass of people on the Western waters. Whether this great mass will form a permanent part of the confederacy, or whether it will be separated into an alien, a jealous and a hostile people, may depend on the system of measures that is shortly to be taken. The difference, he observed, between considering them in the light of fellow-citizens, bound to us by a common affection, obeying common laws, pursuing a common good, and considering them in the other light, presents one of the most interesting questions that can occupy an American mind. Instead of peace and friendship, we shall have rivalship and enmity; instead of being a great people, invulnerable on all sides, and without the necessity of those military establishments which other nations require, we shall be driven into the same expensive and dangerous means of defence. We shall be obliged to lay burthens on the people, to support establishments which, sooner or later, may prove fatal to their liberties. It is incumbent on us, if we wish to act the part of magnanimous legislators, or patriotic citizens, to consider well, when we are about to take a step of such vast importance, that it be directed by the views he had described; we must consider what is just, what is equal, and what is satisfactory.

On a candid view of the two rivers, he flattered himself that the seat which would most correspond with the public interest would be found on the banks of the Potomac. It was proper that we should have some regard to the centre of territory; if that was to have weight, he begged leave to say, that there was no comparison between the two rivers. He defied any gentleman to cast his eye in the most cursory manner over a map and say that the Potomac is not much nearer this centre than any part of the Susquehanna. If we measure from the banks of the Potomac to the most eastern parts of the United States, it is less distant than to the most southern. If we measure this great area diagonally, the Potomac will have the advantage. If you draw a line perpendicularly to the direction of the Atlantic coast, we shall find that it will run more equally through the Potomac than through any part of the Union; or, if there be any difference between one side and the other, there will be a greater space on the south-west than on the north-east. All the maps of the United States show the truth of this. From the Atlantic coast to that line which separates the British possessions from the United States, the average distance is not more than one hundred and fifty miles. If you take the average breadth of the other great division of the United States, it will be found to be six, seven, and eight hundred miles.

From this view of the subject, which is not easy to describe by words, but which will strike every eye that looks on a map, I am sure that if the Potomac is not the geographical centre, it is because the Susquehanna is less so.

Mr. Clymer begged to set the gentleman right; his colleague, if he understood him, had only related the communication by the north-western branches, but there was a communication by the Juniata, a branch of the Susquehanna, about fifteen miles above Harrisburg, tending westerly, and navigable eighty miles, from whence to the Connemagh was a portage, with a road actually laid out of about forty miles, hence you descend the Kisskaminetas to the Alleghany, and from thence to Pittsburg is thirty miles.

Mr. Scott knew this communication pretty well, but we who live in that country never take it into consideration, as the waters are too small to afford a certainty of communication, but even here the portage was greater than between the Potomac and Youghiogheny.

Mr. Clymer said, with respect to the navigation of the Juniata, that it was in evidence before the House of Assembly of Pennsylvania, when they were considering the means of uniting that navigation with the western waters, that produce to the amount of fourteen hundred bushels had been brought down it to Middletown.

Mr. Madison proceeded and said, he wished every fact to be ascertained that could throw any light upon the subject. Taking the Susquehanna, as it was practicable for navigation, it would be found, that through that route of communication, Fort Pitt would be four or five hundred miles from the proposed seat on its banks, and that the distance by land was not less than two hundred and fifty miles; whereas, through the Potomac the distance from the proposed spot on its banks to Fort Pitt was not calculated at more than two hundred and fifty miles, and he believed the distance by land would be found not to exceed one hundred and sixty or one hundred and seventy miles.

Whether we measure the distance by land or water, then, the result is in favor of the Potomac. If we consider the progress already made in opening this great channel, its title becomes still stronger. Let me add, that it has been found, on accurate research, that the waters communicating with the Ohio are not more than two or three miles distant from the sources of the Potomac. This is a fact of peculiar importance.

The gentleman from Massachusetts yesterday raised great objections against the Potomac, because it was, as he supposed, subject to periodical maladies, from which the other river was free. I am not authorized, from personal experience, or very particular information, to draw a comparison between them; but there are some general facts that may serve to show, that if there is any difference, it is more likely to be in favor of the Potomac than of the Susquehanna. The position contemplated on the banks of the former is considerably further from tide water than the place proposed on the latter. On this account, therefore, we have little reason to suppose that the Potomac is more unhealthy. If we regard their comparative situations, westwardly, the spot on the Potomac is almost as much further to the west, as it is distant from the proposed spot on the Susquehanna; and he well knew that, generally speaking, as were tire towards the Western and upper country, we are generally removed from the causes of those diseases to which southern situations are exposed. As the two places are moreover in the same latitude, the objection advanced, with respect to that point, cannot apply to one more than the other. It is only their western or eastern position, their remoteness from, or their proximity to the lower country, and to fresh or stagnant waters, that can possibly affect the question. It is not because we advance so much to the south that we advance to the centre, it is because we go more to the west. I do not know that there is a difference of more than a degree and five or six minutes between the latitude of New York and the place proposed on the Potomac.

Mr. Ames never intended that this question should be carried through the committee by the strength of a silent majority; he had confidence in the weight of the arguments to be urged in favor of the Susquehanna, and he was willing to put the decision of the question on that ground. He would now come forward, and give the reasons of his opinion, especially as gentlemen had entered fully into the reasons which guided their own to a different conclusion. He did not conceive it would be necessary for him, coming from the part of the United States from which he did, to disclaim the local views and narrow prejudices with which the subject teemed. He had feared, when the question was first brought forward, that the minds of gentlemen would be highly fermented, indeed so much, that he almost despaired of coming to a proper decision, nor did he think these apprehensions were illusive, if he judged from what had already taken place. He had observed that some gentlemen, whose discernments were clear and who were generally guided by the straight line of rectitude, had been most surprisingly warped on the present occasion; he was fearful that their wishes had misled them from a due regard of the real object of their pursuit, viz: the public interest and convenience. He was sensible, that he himself was liable to some improper impressions; but he trusted he did not feel them in that degree which he thought he saw in others.

He was willing to be led by the great principles which other gentlemen had laid down as the rule of their decision; but he thought they would lead to a different conclusion from what had been drawn from them; he admitted that a central situation is to be taken, and in considering this centre, the centre of a sea-coast line ought to be regarded, because it is more conveniently accessible, has more wealth, and more people than an equal area of inland country. Being more liable to invasion, government should be near to protect it. It is the interest of the back country to have the Government near the sea, to inspect and encourage trade, by which their abundant produce will find an export. And lastly, he said, the contingency of the separation of the Western country was a reason for preferring the sea-coast.

He proceeded next to say, there will not be any contest where this centre of the sea-coast line is to be found: it falls between the rivers Potomac and Susquehanna. It will be found that there are good reasons why we should rather move east than south.

If the sea-coast line is to be preferred, it will follow that the back lands, west of the Ohio, which the gentleman from Virginia has so often taken into his calculations, will be excluded; they are not peopled; they do not affect the sea-coast line; and that line has already been voted to be the proper one by the committee. As it is true that the sea-coast has more wealth and more people than the inland country in proportion to the extent, it is equally true that the eastern half of the sea-coast has more of both than the southern. If we reckon Maryland, which will be as well accommodated by the Susquehanna as by the Potomac, we shall find the population of the eastern part nearly two millions, and that of the southern only one million, and the population of free inhabitants still less in favor of the latter.

But, sir, instead of seeking a centre geographically, we should consider the centre of common convenience. The place is the proper one where the greatest number of persons will be best accommodated. I will endeavor to show that that will be on the Susquehanna. Is the zeal of gentlemen, who oppose this design, influenced by their despair of removing the seat of Government afterwards? I believe the people of America will not complain of it. If fixed there, I think it will be found convenient and will remain there.

The Susquehanna is the centre of the common convenience. At this moment there are more wealth and more inhabitants east than south of it. But the future population of America is calculated, and it is pretended that the balance of population is receding from the East. Surely the present inhabitants may be allowed principally to consult their own convenience. West of the Ohio is an almost immeasurable wilderness; when it will be settled, or how it will be possible to govern it, is past calculation. Gentlemen will pardon me if I think it perfectly romantic to make this decision depend upon that circumstance. Probably it will be near a century before those people will be considerable; if we fix the national seat in the proper place now, it would give me no inquietude to know that a hundred years hence it may be liable to be removed; but, in fact, the principle which is assumed by the committee, and which I have attempted to justify, of taking the centre of the sea-coast line, will, even in the event of that vast tract being settled, furnish abundant reasons for its remaining on the Susquehanna. I will not recapitulate those reasons. We must take some principle to guide us; and though some inequalities will appear, yet let gentlemen remember, that in so vast a country great inconveniences will attend the communications of the people with Government, be the seat of it where it may; and by taking the centre of the sea-coast line there will be less than any other principle. It will be found best to accommodate the greatest number; or, in other words, to be the centre of common convenience: indeed, this is not denied to be true at this moment; but the case is said to be changing. On the one hand, I think it is Utopian to calculate upon the population of the United States a century hence; and, on the other hand, I admit that it is impolitic at least, perhaps unjust, to confine our attention to the present population; a quarter of a century may be a medium. Will gentlemen deny that trade and manufactures will accumulate people in the Eastern States, in proportion of five to three, compared with the Southern? The disproportion will, doubtless, continue to be much greater than I have calculated. It is actually greater at present; for the climate and negro slavery are acknowledged to be unfavorable to population: so that husbandry, as well as commerce and manufactures, will give more people in the Eastern than in the Southern States. The very circumstance that gentlemen found their reasonings upon is pretty strongly against their calculations. They tell us of the vast quantities of good land still unsettled in their States; that will produce a thin population; for the old lands will not be crowded, so long as new ones are to be had.

Mr. Carroll begged leave to give the Committee some information respecting the distance from tide-water to Fort Cumberland; from the tide-water to the Little Falls was three miles, to the Great Falls six more, from thence to the Seneca Falls was also six more, and from thence to Old Town one hundred and seventeen; which last place was fifteen miles from Fort Cumberland, making in all one hundred and forty-five miles, instead of two hundred, as stated by the gentleman.

Mr. Ames imagined his statement to be nearly right, and he found Mr. Jefferson stated in his Notes, that the Falls of the Potomac were fifteen miles in extent, and a navigation extremely difficult to be made.

Mr. Carroll said, it was not near that distance; in the fifteen miles there were three falls: the Seneca, the Great and Little Falls, but they occupy but a small part of the fifteen miles; he could certainly form some judgment of a place which he might say was almost at his door, and did not expect that Mr. Jefferson's Notes would have been adduced as an authority to contradict information he had given in his place. As to the difficulty of the navigation, he had to observe that many of the obstacles were already so far removed as to render the transportation down to the Great Falls practicable; that there the canal was nearly finished, and ready to sink the lock-seats and insert the frames, so that in a little time there was a probability that no impediment whatever would obstruct the descent of produce to the tide-water.

The question, on Mr. Lee's motion for striking out Susquehanna, and inserting Potomac, was put and lost; for it 21, against it 29.

Mr. Madison then moved, to add, after "Susquehanna" the words "or Potomac;" this would furnish an opportunity to examine and compare the two situations. It was so favorable to a discovery of the truth, that he did not doubt but gentlemen who were desirous of grounding their decision upon a full understanding of the subject would agree to the motion.

Mr. Boudinot seconded this motion, and supported it, by observing the necessity there appeared to be, of obtaining a more accurate knowledge of the two rivers, as gentlemen seemed to differ materially with respect to the matter of fact.

Mr. Sherman contended, upon the principles adopted yesterday by the committee, that they could not think of going to the Potomac; he said, that taking the population, even allowing the slaves in the Southern States, there was the greatest weight of population north-east of the Susquehanna; but upon the ratio of representation, at a member for forty thousand inhabitants, there were but one million two hundred thousand south of Pennsylvania, one million four hundred thousand north, including Pennsylvania; but if the calculation was made from the Potomac, the South would contain nine hundred and sixty thousand inhabitants, and the North one million six hundred and eighty thousand. Now, he would ask, if gentlemen could expect that the northern people would incline to go so far south? He apprehended they would not.

The question being taken on inserting "or Potomac," it passed in the negative.

On motion of Mr. Page, the committee rose and reported progress, and then the House adjourned.

Saturday, September 5.

Permanent Seat of Government.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on establishing the permanent residence of Congress; when

Mr. Fitzsimons presented the following resolution:

Resolved, As the opinion of this committee, that the President of the United States be authorized to appoint —— commissioners, to examine, and report to him, the most eligible situation on the east bank of the Susquehanna, for the permanent seat of Government of the United States. That the said commissioners be authorized, by and with the advice of the President, to purchase such quantity of lands as may be thought necessary, and to erect thereon, within —— years, suitable buildings for the accommodation of the Congress, and of the officers of the United States. That the Secretary of the Treasury, together with the commissioners so to be appointed, be authorized to borrow a sum not exceeding —— dollars, to be paid in —— years, with interest, at the rate of —— per cent. per annum, payable out of the duties on impost and tonnage, to be applied to the purchase of the land, and the erection of the buildings aforesaid. And that a bill ought to pass, in the present session, in conformity with the aforegoing resolutions.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) doubted the propriety of the resolution, because he conceived the declaration in the constitution required a cession of territory as well as jurisdiction. If he was joined in this sentiment by the committee, he would move that the President be empowered to appoint commissioners to examine and report a proper place on the banks of the Susquehanna for a federal town, and that, whenever the State of Pennsylvania shall cede to the United States a certain district or territory, not exceeding ten miles square, Congress would accept thereof for the above purpose.

Mr. Lawrence would inquire for what purpose the cession, mentioned in the constitution, was required? It was, in the words of that instrument, to exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever; now, did this consequence involve in it a territorial possession? It certainly did not. It involved nothing more than the power of making laws independent of the State jurisdiction. The gentleman might have carried his idea further, for as the cession is to be made by particular States, it seems to infer that two States, at least, should be concerned in the cession; but would objections, from such forced constructions, have any weight in the judgment of the committee? He trusted they would not. He supposed it more rational to attend to the plain literal meaning of the constitution than to engage in the discussion of the refined speculations of ingenious men.

Mr. Vining observed, that Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia, had offered to cede territory, as well as jurisdiction, and there would be a great impropriety in expending the federal treasure, in purchasing the soil, when they might have it without expense.

Mr. Ames endeavored to show that such a cession, as was contemplated in the constitution, might be made by one State to another, without giving a property to a foot of land, by comparing it with the cession of Silesia to Prussia, where not a single acre of soil was conveyed, but of jurisdiction to the whole province; so, when territory changes its government, by being the sacrifice of a treaty of peace. He supposed that Congress were to purchase the soil necessary to erect buildings for the accommodation of the Government, and was satisfied the cession might be made subsequent to their election of a particular spot.

Mr. Seney.—The gentleman from Delaware has said, that Maryland proposed a cession of soil; but I believe, sir, there is not such a word as soil mentioned in the law.

Mr. Carroll agreed with his colleague, and supposed that a cession of soil could not have been contemplated, because the State of Maryland had offered any part of the State, not excepting the town of Baltimore. He believed if Congress were disposed to fix in that town, it would be agreeable to the State; but he did not imagine they would agree to give the General Government a property to the whole town, and the surrounding country. The other parts of the State had never contemplated making the inhabitants of Baltimore a compensation for such an immense property.

Mr. Goodhue believed, if the House had agreed to go to the Potomac, there would have been none of these constitutional difficulties stated. It was well known, he said, that the gentlemen from the eastward had no desire to take up the subject; but those from the southward were sanguine in their expectations that they should get the Government to the Potomac; and were, therefore, for pressing the business, and not allowing it to be postponed as was contended for on the other hand.

Mr. Madison said, the business was not brought on by their original motion, though they gave it their support. It was true, that a proposition for postponement was made, but what was the extent of that postponement? Till December or January next. Was there any reason to suppose that those gentlemen, who were, at this day, opposed to the Potomac, would give in to such a change of opinion by that time, as to induce us to agree to their proposition. We saw no reason to expect such a change. And, as in fact, we find a predetermined majority ready to dispose of us, the sooner we know our destiny the better; for it can be of little consequence, if we are to be disposed of, whether we are disposed of in September or December.

Mr. Wadsworth.—The reiteration of being disposed of by bargaining, induces me to rise and make one remark. It is a notorious fact to the members within these walls, that the New England members, to a man, were opposed to a decision at present; and that they were disposed to accommodate the Southern States. They refused all bargaining, till they were assured there was a bargaining set on foot to carry them to the Potomac; why, then, are we reproached with this? Whatever bargaining there has been, we were the last to come into it; we never thought of it, till we were told that we were a property, and should be disposed of, unless we took care of ourselves. I hope, as we have gone so far, we shall settle the subject in dispute, by granting the money and erecting the necessary buildings.

Mr. Jackson denied being concerned in any bargaining whatever, and defied any gentleman to say he knew any thing of one, till he heard it mentioned on this floor; he was determined to keep himself disengaged, and to vote according as his judgment should lead him, after hearing the subject coolly and thoroughly discussed.

Mr. Madison hoped, if he travelled a little out of order, he should be justified, after what had taken place; but he could not withhold this public declaration of his wish, that every thing that had passed on the subject alluded to by the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Wadsworth,) were to be fully understood, and were reduced to writing. Every thing he knew of it he was willing, on his part, to put into that form; and he was well persuaded that it would be found, on examination, that the opposition of the Southern gentlemen was of a defensive nature, and that they had not listened to a proposition, until they had reason to think it necessary to prevent a sudden and improper decision of this very important question.

Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, begged gentlemen to remember, that all the Southern members had not been in favor of bringing forward the business at the present session; he had opposed it as well as some others.

Mr. Lee conceived it to be his duty to present once more the preamble, which had been rejected in committee. He flattered himself, after the discussion which had taken place, that gentlemen were prepared to decide on liberal and national principles, and therefore they would adopt those he presented.

Mr. Seney approved of the Susquehanna in preference to the Potomac, on every principle which had been brought into view, as proper to guide the House in deciding the present question. He treated the alarm which gentlemen apprehended would be given by fixing on the Susquehanna as merely ideal, and existing nowhere but in the imagination of gentlemen; so far from exciting jealousy, or disturbing the public mind, he contemplated it as tending to allay uneasiness, and to give general satisfaction.

On motion, the House now adjourned.

Monday, September 7.

Permanent seat of Government.

The House resumed the consideration of the resolutions reported by the Committee of the Whole for establishing the permanent residence of Congress.

Whereupon, the first resolution was agreed to, and the second, to wit:

Resolved, That the permanent seat of the Government of the United States ought to be at some convenient place on the east bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania; and that, until the necessary buildings be erected for the purpose, the seat of Government ought to continue at the city of New York,

Being under consideration,

Mr. Lee withdrew his proposition offered yesterday, and moved to amend the said resolution, by striking out the words "East Bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania," and inserting, in lieu thereof; the "North Bank of the river Potomac, in the State of Maryland."

And, on the question that the House do agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays were demanded, and are

Ayes.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Brown, Burke, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Tucker and Vining—21.

Nays.—Messrs. Benson, Boudinot, Cadwalader, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Lawrence, Livermore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—29.

So it was determined in the negative.

Mr. Vining said, it now became his duty, after having sacrificed a prejudice, if he had one, by giving his vote for the Potomac, to bring before the House the humble claim of Delaware. He apprehended that her claim to centrality, as it respected wealth and population, was superior to that of the Susquehanna; and that, if a sea-coast line was to be a criterion, she was near the centre of territory. He supposed that this was the line upon which the Committee was to decide for the present. It was not supposed necessary, at this time, to take into consideration the vacant and extensive Western Territory, or why refuse the Potomac, which offered itself under the greatest advantages of an easy intercourse with that quarter? Add to the reasons he had mentioned, that the United States would consult their interest by fixing on the Delaware, as they would not incur the heavy expense of purchasing territory, and erecting magnificent palaces and hotels for the Government, and he thought gentlemen would not hesitate to agree with him.

The place he meant to offer was possessed of eminent superiority, as to salubrity of air and fertility of soil; it also united the advantages of the Atlantic and inland navigation; inasmuch as, by cutting a canal from the waters of the Chesapeake to the Delaware, a communication would be opened from Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland, to New Jersey, Pennsylvania and the midland counties of New York. The spot that he proposed for their acceptance was Wilmington in the State of Delaware; round which they might have a district for exclusive legislation, if it was thought proper to accept it. Under these impressions, he would frame his motions in such a way, as to enable Congress, when they did adjourn, to adjourn to meet at that borough. It was made in this form: To strike out the word "permanent," and all the remainder of the clause, after the words "ought to be at," and to insert in lieu of the last "the borough of Wilmington, in the State of Delaware."

On the question that the House do agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays were demanded, and are

Ayes.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Burke, Cadwalader, Coles, Contee, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Sinnickson, Smith, (of South Carolina,) Sumter, and Vining—19.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Brown, Carroll, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Stone, Thatcher, Trumbull, Tucker, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—32.

Mr. Boudinot remarked that the peculiar situation in which he had been placed, by having the chair of the Committee, prevented him from giving his sentiments on the subject then; he therefore hoped to be indulged with stating the claim of the Delaware to the honor of the Federal City. When a question of such great magnitude, and which involved the interests of the Union, was to be decided, he thought he could be neither doing justice to the United States at large, nor his immediate constituents, were he to neglect to call their attention to what the former Congress had done in favor of the Delaware. He was surprised that gentlemen, who contended for the accommodation of their constituents, should be led so far astray from pursuing that object, as to pass far beyond the centre of wealth and population, as well as territory; or, if they did not pass the centre of territory, they went to a place, maugre all that had been said, devoid of those advantages which ought to attend the Federal residence. The want of communication with the Atlantic, the difficulty of navigating its waters, from the innumerable rocks, falls and shoals with which it abounds, which, from actual observation, he was induced to believe were insuperable obstructions to a connection with the Western waters, or, if they could be surmounted, it would be at such cost of money and labor, as the United States were not in a condition to expend, at a time when the widows and orphans were starving for want of the pittance due to them by the Government. The sterility of the soil, and the unhealthiness of a situation on the banks of a river which was subject to rise twenty feet and more, and overflow its banks, leaving behind vast quantities of stagnant water, whence proceeded noxious exhalations, the cause of a long catalogue of diseases, were altogether, in his mind, such objections to the place, that he could never imagine a majority of the House could consent to it. He further observed, that the Government would be secluded from the world, and the channels of information; there were few inhabitants, unless it was in the neighborhood of York or Lancaster.

But, beside all these considerations, there was this further, that there was an existing resolution of Congress for erecting the necessary buildings for their accommodation on the banks of the Delaware and Potomac, and an absolute grant of money for the purpose of defraying the expense. Now, as these had each of them strong pretensions, he was willing to have them considered and examined by commissioners sent on the ground. For the sake of accommodation, he would, therefore, move to amend the resolution, by striking out the words "east bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania," and inserting in lieu thereof the words "Potomac, Susquehanna, or Delaware."

On the question that the House do agree to the said amendment, it passed in the negative; the yeas and nays being required, are as follows:

Yeas.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Parker, Page, Sinnickson, Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Tucker and Vining—23.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—28.

Mr. Boudinot then moved to amend the resolution by striking out the words "east bank of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania," and inserting in lieu thereof, the words, "banks of either side of the river Delaware, not more than eight miles above or below the lower falls of Delaware."

On this question, the yeas and nays were demanded, and are:

Yeas.—Messrs. Boudinot, Cadwalader, Gerry and Sinnickson—4.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Baldwin, Benson, Bland, Brown, Burke, Carroll, Clymer, Coles, Contee, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gilman, Griffin, Grout, Goodhue, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Jackson, Lawrence, Lee, Livermore, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Muhlenberg, Page, Parker, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Thatcher, Trumbull, Tucker, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—46.

Mr. Stone then moved to amend the resolution, by striking out the words "east bank," and inserting in lieu thereof the word "banks;" and on the question, that the House do agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays being demanded, were as follow:

Yeas.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Seney, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Tucker, and Vining—26.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Sherman, Sylvester, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—25.

So it passed in the affirmative.

A motion was then made and seconded, further to amend the said resolution, by inserting, after the word "Pennsylvania," the words "or Maryland," and, on the question the House do agree to the said amendment, it passed in the negative; and the yeas and nays being demanded, were as follow:

Ayes.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Sinnickson, Smith, (of M.) Smith, (of S. C.) Stone, Sumter, Tucker and Vining—25.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—26.

Mr. Lee expected the question would be divided on the resolution, as it contained two distinct objects, the permanent and temporary residence.

Mr. Page suggested the propriety of striking out the latter part of the clause, relating to New York, and to confine the resolution merely to the avowed object, namely, the permanent residence.

The question was taken on striking out, and it passed in the negative, 24 for, 27 against it.

Mr. Vining then moved to strike out the words "City of New York," and insert, in lieu thereof, "Borough of Wilmington, in the State of Delaware;" and on the question to agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays being demanded, were as follow:

Ayes.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Sinnickson, Sumter and Vining—21.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Thatcher, Trumbull, Tucker, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—30.

So it passed in the negative.

Mr. Parker moved to strike out "New York" and insert "Philadelphia."

Mr. Lee said the city of New York possessed every convenience and accommodation; he was strongly impressed in favor of the inhabitants, their urbanity and industry did honor to America, and nothing could induce him to vote for striking out the words, but a sense of duty. He flattered himself that a regard would now be paid to the great principles of centrality, which Philadelphia possessed in a great degree; the conveniences and accommodations to be found in that city were equal, if not superior, to what New York presented; her public buildings and institutions were, he believed, at their command; the inhabitants were industrious, temperate, and frugal; in short, every principle which operated in favor of the Susquehanna, as a permanent residence, applied with equal or more force in favor of Philadelphia as the temporary seat of Government.

Mr. Sherman hoped the House were disposed to make as few removes as possible, and that as the buildings for their accommodation might be in readiness in two or three years at the permanent residence, they would be disposed to continue in New York till that time.

On the question, that the House do agree to the said amendment, the yeas and nays being demanded, are as follows:

Ayes.—Messrs. Baldwin, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Heister, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Sinnickson, Stone, Sumter and Vining—22.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Bland, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Lawrence, Livermore, P. Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Thatcher, Trumbull, Tucker, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—29.

The main question being put, the second resolution, as amended, was agreed to by the House, in the words following, to wit:

"Resolved, That the permanent seat of the Government of the United States ought to be at some convenient place on the banks of the river Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania; and that, until the necessary buildings be erected for the purpose, the seat of Government ought to continue in the city of New York."

The third resolution, in the words following, to wit:

"Resolved, That the President of the United States be authorized to appoint three commissioners, to examine and report to him the most eligible situation on the banks of the Susquehanna, in the State of Pennsylvania, for the permanent seat of the Government of the United States; that the said Commissioners be authorized under the direction of the President, to purchase such quantity of land as may be thought necessary, and to erect thereon, within four years, suitable buildings for the accommodation of the Congress, and of the other officers of the United States; that the Secretary of the Treasury, together with the Commissioners so to be appointed, be authorized to borrow a sum, not exceeding one hundred thousand dollars, to be repaid within twenty years, with interest, not exceeding the rate of five per cent. per annum, out of the duties on impost and tonnage, to be applied to the purchase of the land, and the erection of buildings aforesaid; and that a bill ought to pass, in the present session, in conformity with the foregoing resolutions."

A motion was made by Mr. Gale, to amend the same, by inserting after the word "aforesaid" the following proviso, viz:

"Provided, nevertheless, that, previous to any such purchase, or erection of buildings as aforesaid, the Legislatures of the States of Pennsylvania and Maryland make such provision for removing all obstructions to the navigation of the said river, between the seat of the Federal Government and the mouth thereof, as may be satisfactory to the President of the United States."

The ayes and nays being demanded, it passed in the negative.

Ayes.—Messrs. Baldwin, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Seney, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Tucker and Vining—24.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Sherman, Sylvester, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—25.

And then the main question being put, Do the House agree to the said third resolution, as reported by the Committee of the whole House?

The ayes and nays being demanded, it passed in the affirmative.

Ayes.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Stone, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—28.

Nays.—Messrs. Baldwin, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gerry, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Sinnickson, Smith, (of South Carolina,) Sumter, Tucker and Vining—21.

Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant to the foregoing resolutions, and that Messrs. Ames, Lawrence, and Clymer, do prepare and bring in the same.

Monday, September 21.

Seat of Government.

The House proceeded to consider the bill to establish the seat of Government of the United States, which lay on the table, with the amendments, as reported by the Committee of the whole House.

Mr. Smith proposed to confine the choice of a situation on the banks of the Susquehanna, between Checkiselungo creek and the mouth of the river. He was seconded by Mr. Seney.

Mr. Hartley hoped the committee would limit it as near the spot contemplated as possible.

Mr. Heister said, he moved, the other day, for a particular spot on the river, which he conceived entitled to a preference; if the proposed motion obtained, that place would be excluded, and he should hesitate respecting his vote upon the bill.

Mr. Seney by no means wished to embarrass the committee; if the motion proposed would, any how, have that effect, he should withdraw his second.

Mr. Madison felt himself compelled to move for striking out that part of the bill which provided that the temporary residence of Congress should continue at New York; as he conceived it irreconcilable with the spirit of the constitution. If it was not from viewing it in this light, he should have given the bill no further opposition; and now he did not mean to enter on the merits of the main question.

From the constitution, it appeared that the concurrence of the two Houses of Congress was sufficient to enable them to adjourn from one place to another; nay, the legal consent of the President was, in some degree, prescribed in the 7th section of article 1st, where it is declared, that every order, resolution, or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary, (except on a question of adjournment,) shall be presented to the President of the United States, and approved by him, before the same shall take effect. Any attempt, therefore, to adjourn by law, is a violation of that part of the constitution which gives the power, exclusively, to the two branches of the Legislature. If gentlemen saw it in the same light, he flattered himself they would reject that part of the bill; and, however little they valued the reflection that this city was not central, which had been so often urged, they would be guided by arguments springing from a superior source.

He would proceed to state the reasons which induced him to be of this opinion; it is declared in the constitution, that neither House, during the session of Congress, shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting; from hence he inferred, that the two Houses, by a concurrence, could adjourn for more than three days, and to any other place which they thought proper; by the other clause he had mentioned, the Executive power is restrained from any interference with the Legislative on this subject; hence, he concluded, it would be dangerous to attempt to give to the President a power which the constitution expressly denied him.

Tuesday, September 22.

Seat of Government.

The engrossed bill to establish the seat of Government of the United States was read a third time; and the question was, Shall this bill pass?

Mr. Carroll said, he felt himself under peculiar circumstances on the decision of this important question. The House had determined that the permanent seat of the Government of the United States should be on the Susquehanna, in Pennsylvania, and not in Maryland on the Potomac. It was his opinion that the last would have been most conducive to the interest of the Union; the voice of the majority of this House is against it. The Susquehanna, said he, being the next object most likely to attain what I have laid down as the rule of my conduct on this occasion, and, at the same time, must be agreeable to the wishes of a great part of my constituents, I felt myself under an obligation to vote for the Susquehanna, upon obtaining the clause which made it obligatory upon the States of Maryland and Pennsylvania to concur in opening the navigation of that river; and nothing would restrain me from giving my assent to the bill, but that clause which requires the concurrence of the President respecting the seat of Government, until Congress meet at their permanent seat. To this clause I have strong constitutional objections; they were yesterday fully stated to this House by other gentlemen.

I have endeavored to remove this conviction from my mind, in order to give my assent to the bill; but as I am under the sacred obligation of an oath to support the constitution, as I cannot efface the conviction from my mind that it is contrary to the constitution, and as we could not succeed in striking out the clause, I feel myself under the disagreeable necessity of giving my dissent to the bill.

The yeas and nays, on passing the bill, being required by one-fifth of the members present, were as follow:

Yeas.—Messrs. Ames, Baldwin, Benson, Clymer, Contee, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Jackson, Lawrence, Leonard, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Seney, Sherman, Sylvester, Smith, (of Maryland,) Stone, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—31.

Nays.—Messrs. Bland, Boudinot, Burke, Cadwalader, Carroll, Coles, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Parker, Schureman, Smith, (of South Carolina,) Sumter, Tucker, Vining, and White—17.

The bill having passed, was sent to the Senate for their concurrence.

Saturday, September 26.

Seat of Government.

A message from the Senate was received, informing the House that they had passed the bill for establishing the seat of Government of the United States, with an amendment, which the House immediately took into consideration. The amendment went to strike out all that related to the river Susquehanna, both as to fixing the seat of Government there, and removing the obstructions to the navigation; and to insert, in lieu thereof, "a district of ten miles square, bounded on the south by a line running parallel at one mile's distance from the city of Philadelphia, on the east side of the river of Delaware, and extending northerly and westerly, so as to include Germantown."

Mr. Bland thought the bill was so materially changed as to warrant the House to postpone its consideration. The principles upon which the Senate had proceeded, he believed, had not yet been discussed in the House, and the short time which now remained of the session forbade the attempt.

Mr. Page seconded this motion.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) hoped that gentlemen would agree to let the bill lie on the table, and not to be driven into a measure which they considered injurious to the public interest. He trusted they would not be influenced to adopt this bill, by the Senate's keeping the appropriation bill as a hostage for it, which he understood to be the case.

Mr. Fitzsimons was sorry to hear a thing of that kind insinuated against so respectable a body. He trusted the gentleman had been misinformed; but should be glad to know his authority.

Mr. Partridge declared that a knowledge of this fact would have considerable influence on his conduct; therefore, he was desirous of knowing to what an extent it was a certainty.

Mr. Bland would not charge the Senate with retaining the appropriation bill as a hostage; but he thought it of more importance than the bill they had now sent down, and wished it had been first acted upon.

Mr. Speaker informed the House that the appropriation bill was sent only yesterday to the Senate.

Mr. Stone did not suspect the Senate of the conduct which had been intimated; but, nevertheless, he was in favor of the postponement.

Mr. Lee remarked that the great principles which this House had adopted, on full debate, were now thrown out of view; they had nothing to do with the amendment which the Senate had made. He could not, after this circumstance, bring himself to believe that the House would agree to the alteration, without discussing the other principles upon which it must be founded. And here the approaching termination of the session, and the quantity of unfinished business, presented to the mind a strong objection; either it could not be done at all, or done to great disadvantage. Beside, if it is laid over to the next session, the voice of the people may be better understood on this important question; when that was fully and fairly expressed, he flattered himself with a harmonious determination, to which all parties would submit without a single murmur.

Mr. Sherman thought the amendment of the Senate founded in wisdom, and upon true principles; the House had now nothing else before them. Indeed, they had just been spending an hour or two upon a very uninteresting subject respecting printers; he therefore trusted they would proceed to consider the amendment fully, and come in a proper time to a decision upon it.

Mr. White considered the amendment of the Senate as totally changing the tenor of the bill, and therefore it was like introducing a new subject. Indeed, in all the long arguments which the question had drawn out, he believed this place had never been mentioned. The gentleman last up, said there was no business before the House at present: but he would ask, if a business had never yet been before them, whether a member would be permitted to bring it forward at this late hour. He might be told, that the act of the Senate carried greater weight in it than the motion of a member. But he would place against that weight, the weight of the vote of this House, which on a former day agreed to fix the seat of Government on the banks of the Susquehanna; so that the question may be supposed to stand on independent ground.

But there was a collateral observation he would make. If Germantown was the proper place for the permanent residence of Congress, it was so near Philadelphia as to prove that that city would be the proper place for the temporary residence, and of course they ought to move there immediately, and order the next session to be held there; but both these questions were of too much moment to be fixed by a hasty vote of the House.

Mr. Jackson had given his assent to the bill as it passed the House, after a fair opposition: he was satisfied his fellow-citizens would submit to what appeared to be the voice of their country; though they would have preferred the Potomac on account of its centrality and contiguity to the Western Territory, yet he acceded to the Susquehanna; but this was no reason he should vote for Germantown. Who are those that say to us, Germantown is the most proper spot that can be selected? They are the representatives of the State sovereignties; where the large and small States are equally represented, the voice of the majority of the people is lost in the inequality of the political branch of the Legislature. He could not but think an alteration in the sentiment of the House, on this ground, would excite serious alarm in the minds of the people; to avoid which consequence, he should agree to the postponement.

Mr. Gerry urged, as a reason for postponement, that North Carolina and Rhode Island were out of the Union at present; and that, as there was a flattering expectation that at least one of those States would adopt the constitution by the next session, it would be extremely desirable to have their voice in determining this great question.

Mr. Madison.—However different our sentiments, with respect to the place most proper for the seat of the Federal Government, I presume we shall all agree that a right decision is of great importance; and that a satisfactory decision is of equal moment to the happiness and tranquillity of the Union: that even the manner and circumstances under which such decision may take place, are worthy of serious consideration.

Now, sir, the amendment proposed by the Senate, not only deserves the name of a new bill, but it proceeds on principles different from those which served for the basis of the bill sent up to them from this House: hence I presume, sir, it is not only necessary to examine the merits of the proposition, but to enter into a full and minute investigation of those principles upon which it is founded: the proposition is new and in some degree opposed to what has heretofore prevailed: the public mind has not yet been called to the consideration of it; nay, I believe it never yet has been contemplated by the inhabitants of any one State: the eye of America should be indulged with an opportunity of viewing it before it be made their fixed abode. All the other places which have been mentioned as candidates for the seat of Government, on this occasion, have at different times, and in different forms, been held up to the public attention; two of them had not only employed the deliberation, but had obtained the favorable decision of the old Congress; now after all this, to take up and adopt in a moment, a rival place, never before contemplated, is risking an improper and a dissatisfactory decision.

Mr. Stone reminded the House of the majority there was in selecting the Susquehanna, which he conceived to be the second best spot in the United States; and how much greater that majority would have been than 31 to 17, if no other question had been involved in the bill: he could hardly suppose such a change of sentiment would take place without argument, as was necessary in order to get the Senate's amendment adopted, which, he understood, was carried by a small majority indeed.

Mr. White would just add one observation, which was respecting the enormous price of land in the vicinity of Philadelphia; and how imprudent it would be for Congress to subject themselves to an exorbitant demand of this nature, by fixing upon the precise spot where this Federal town should be.

The question was now taken on postponing the consideration of the amendment proposed by the Senate, until the next session; and the yeas and nays being called, are:

Yeas.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Brown, Burke, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Gerry, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Schureman, Seney, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Tucker and White—25.

Nays.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Boudinot, Cadwalader, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Lawrence, Leonard, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Scott, Sherman, Sylvester, Sinnickson, Thatcher, Trumbull, Vining, Wadsworth, and Wynkoop—29.

So it was determined in the negative.

Monday, September 28.

Seat of Government.

Mr. Sherman—In our deliberations on this occasion, we should have an eye to the general accommodation of the Union, and the best way of defraying the expense. The place fixed upon by the Senate, he presumed, was known to the members generally; hence they were able to judge of its eligibility at the first view; it certainly possessed some advantages over the other situation; and he believed it was as central, if not more so than the Susquehanna, as it respected the present inhabitants; the air, the soil, in that neighborhood, were quite as agreeable as the other. But there was an access by water, from every part of the United States, which furnished a very great convenience; but beside this, those who came from the Southern States, had generally an inland navigation, with a short distance to come by land from the head of the Elk; so the citizens of the Eastern States, in like manner, would be accommodated by coming through the Sound and crossing to Amboy, on which route they would have but about 70 miles land carriage; a distance nearly equal with the other. He admitted that Germantown was not quite so near to the Western Territory as the Susquehanna was; but he contemplated a very distant day before it would be settled, and much longer before the inhabitants would have frequent occasion of travelling to the seat of Government. Added to the advantages he had mentioned, there were good buildings, and convenience for arsenals and ship-yards, with abundance of artificers on the spot; these considerations, taken together, induced him to think it best to concur with the Senate.

Mr. Smith thought the honorable gentleman rather inconsistent in his argument to-day. If he recollected right, the gentleman had formerly urged in favor of the Susquehanna, that it was not accessible by vessels from sea; and now he recommends this quality as an advantage in favor of the Delaware. The gentleman admits that this position is not quite so near the Western Territory as the one chosen by the House; but then he thinks no inconvenience will arise, inasmuch as it will be some years before it is peopled: but how does this comport with the principle laid down by an almost unanimous vote of the House? At the beginning of this business, we declare that a due regard should be had to the Western Territory; he now tells us, as an argument in favor of the Senate's amendment, that we should have no regard to it at all. He thinks the change made in the manner of obtaining the money favorable; but what advantage will accrue to the United States from Pennsylvania's granting 100,000 dollars, when Congress will have to purchase the land on which they are to sit down? Land in the neighborhood of Philadelphia, he had been told, was worth 40 or 50 pounds an acre. The 100,000 dollars, given by Pennsylvania, would not go far in a purchase at this rate. He thought the Government would have a better bargain in buying cheap lands on the Susquehanna; or perhaps they might have been got there for nothing. He thought this alteration unfavorable to the Public Treasury, which could illy supply such a demand upon it.

Mr. Madison contended that the amendment proposed by the Senate was a departure from every principle adopted by the House; but he would not trouble them with a recapitulation of arguments, which he feared would be unavailing; he wished, however, that the House would provide against one inconvenience, which was, to prevent the district in Pennsylvania, chosen by Congress, from being deprived for a time of the benefit of the laws. This, he apprehended, would be the case, unless Congress made provision for the operation of the laws of Pennsylvania, in the act by which they accepted of the cession of that State; for the State relinquished the right of legislation from the moment that Congress accepted of the district. The propriety of this proposition was so apparent, that he had not a doubt but the House would consent to it. He then moved the following proviso: "And provided, that nothing herein contained shall be construed to affect the operation of the laws of Pennsylvania, within the district ceded and accepted, until Congress shall otherwise provide by law."

Mr. Livermore objected to this motion; because he supposed there was no necessity for it.

The question was then taken, do the House agree to the amendment? and decided in the affirmative. The yeas and nays being demanded, are as follows:

Yeas.—Messrs. Ames, Cadwalader, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Huntington, Lawrence, Leonard, Livermore, Muhlenberg, Partridge, Van Rensselaer, Schureman, Scott, Sherman, Sylvester, Sinnickson, Thatcher, Trumbull, Vining, Wadsworth and Wynkoop—31.

Nays.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Boudinot, Brown, Burke, Carroll, Coles, Contee, Gale, Griffin, Jackson, Lee, Madison, Matthews, Moore, Page, Parker, Seney, Smith, (of Maryland,) Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, Sumter, Tucker, and White—24.

And here the bill was dropped for the session.