Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Friday, June 26.

A number of the members attending the interesting conference which to-day took place with the Senate on the impost and tonnage bills, no business was done in this House.

Saturday, June 27.

Revenue Bill.

Mr. Boudinot, from the managers on the part of this House in the conference with the Senate on the subject of the amendments to the Impost Bill, reported that the conference had agreed to pass the bill as amended by the Senate, with some additional amendments, viz: the duty on distilled spirits of Jamaica proof, to be reduced from fifteen cents to ten cents per gallon. The duty on all other spirits, to be reduced from twelve to eight cents per gallon. The duty on beer, ale, porter, or cider, imported in casks, from eight to five cents per gallon. The duty on beer imported in bottles, from twenty-five to twenty cents per gallon. The duty on coal, from three to two cents per bushel.

Monday, July 13.

Western Lands.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Mr. Boudinot in the chair.

Mr. Scott requested that the report of the committee on the Western Territory might be read, which was read accordingly, as follows:

Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that an act of Congress should pass for establishing a Land Office, and to regulate the terms of granting vacant and unappropriated lands in the Western Territory.

Mr. Scott.—In endeavoring, sir, to open the interesting subject now before you, I shall avoid the repetition of those ideas which I threw out on a former occasion, as far as my memory will serve me, and the nature of the subject will permit.

This subject, sir, will appear of great magnitude in point of interest, if we consider the extent of the territory; I think I shall not be far beyond the mark, if I say it is one thousand miles long by five hundred broad; nor if I say it is sufficient to contain two millions of farms; nevertheless, for greater caution, say it will contain one million, (which is notoriously and greatly within the real contents,) and that each of these farms may be peopled by six souls, they will amount to six millions of inhabitants, double the number of the present inhabitants of the United States. From this view, it is an object of great concern. It will appear also an object of concern, if we contemplate the climate, the soil, and the waters of that country; consider that it lies in the heart of the temperate zone; its soil infinitely more rich and more fertile than any in the Atlantic States; its waters pure and good—in a word, it is such a territory as must command inhabitants, and will be peopled. Its situation in the middle of our continent, gives the climate a salubrity that accommodates it to the emigrants from both Northern and Southern States. It is meeting them on a middle ground, softening the harsh restrictions of the rugged North, and breathing bland the zephyr grateful to the sun-scorched South. In short, it is such as gives to all who have seen it the utmost satisfaction—it is both healthy and agreeable.

It may perhaps be objected, that the measure now proposed will lead or tend to a depopulation of the Atlantic States, and therefore ought not to be adopted. This is a circumstance I by no means wish. I am as far from desiring a depopulation of the Atlantic shores, as I am from fearing it on this ground. I am confident it will not operate in any considerable degree to bring about that event; but if it should be thought it would, that could be no solid objection against the measure. Whilst the desire of emigration continues, and lands are to be procured, settlers will find their way into that territory; nor is it in the power of Congress to withhold lands altogether, because they are to be got of others on better terms. There is superior encouragement held out to the people settling on the other side of the river Mississippi, where the soil is fertile, and the climate equally agreeable. In proof of this assertion, I will read to the committee the translation of a kind of proclamation issued by the Governor of the Spanish posts at the Illinois. [This paper contains an invitation to all persons inclined to settle in the Western country, offering as inducements, lands without charge, exemptions from taxes, protection in civil and religious liberties, besides provision and the implements of husbandry.] After this, Mr. S. proceeded: Now, sir, if Congress fear to sell their lands lest it tend to depopulate the Atlantic States, what must they apprehend from propositions like these? They will certainly have all the effect which encouragement from this quarter can have. It may be said, that Americans will not venture to live under the Spanish Government, or settle a Spanish colony. To this it may be replied, that when people, from their necessities or inclinations, are determined to emigrate, in order to mitigate their distresses, they think little of the form of government; all they care for is relief from their present or approaching wants and troubles.

Nobody will emigrate from the Atlantic States but a certain description of men, and they will go whether you hold out this encouragement to them or not; they will pay little regard to Congressional restrictions. And here let me make one remark, drawn from my own observation. The forming settlements in a wilderness upon the frontiers, between the savages and the least populated of the civilized parts of the United States, requires men of enterprising, violent, nay, discontented and turbulent spirits. Such always are our first settlers in the ruthless and savage wild; they serve as pioneers to clear the way for the more laborious and careful farmer. These characters are already in that country by thousands, and their number is daily increasing, and will continue to increase; for congenial spirits will assimilate maugre all our endeavors to the contrary. But how will you prevent them? I should be glad to see a plan for hemming in the emigration to that territory; I think the thing wholly impracticable, therefore it becomes the immediate interest of Congress, to direct the emigration to a proper point; direct it to their own territory, rather than be inactive spectators of its silent, though rapid course to the Spanish and British dependencies; rather sell your lands and get something for them, than let your citizens leave your dominions. By improving a part, you add to the value of the remainder; their population will produce a hardy race of husbandmen and warriors, always at the command of the United States, to support and defend your liberty and property. These being facts, I leave it to the wisdom of the House to draw the inference.

I will make one further remark, with respect to the encouragement or discouragement of emigration. Suppose it was in the power of Congress to stop the course of the impetuous current, which has already won its way through insuperable obstructions, and spread itself over the fertile lands of the Ohio. I ask, with perfect security, if it is not such an act of contumacy, and inconsistency with the fundamental principles of the Government, that Congress could not adopt it? Consider that many of your citizens are destitute of the comforts, nay, the common necessaries of life, without a prospect of providing for the subsistence of themselves and families: I ask, would Congress prevent the emigration of such persons if they could? I think not; they would not act as kind protecting fathers to their people if they did. I presume this would be too serious an objection for any man to face, with a restraining proposition. I question if any man would be hardy enough to point out a class of citizens by name, that ought to be the servants of the community; yet, unless that is done, to what class of the people could you direct such a law? But if you passed such an act, it would be tantamount to saying that there is some class which must remain here, and by law must be obliged to serve the others, for such wages as they please to give.

This being the case, let us make the best of liberty, our people, and our land. Your citizens, I tell you, are already there by thousands; they are going by thousands more, and are every hour growing up into consequence. They never expect to return into the Atlantic States; plant them in your soil, add this wealth of population to your own, and form an empire illustrious as it is extended. Remember, ye sages of my country, an historic truth recorded for your instruction, that empire has been slowly, but invariably, moving from East to West; emigration has uniformly receded in that direction, from the time that our common parents quitted the garden of Eden, till the present hour; nor doubt but it will continue to pursue that course, as long as there are lands to be inhabited.

Much will depend upon the energy and force of the Government established in that country; it ought to be such as will furnish sufficient power for its own internal purposes, and also to secure it to the Union. But that is not the only tie by which its union is held. That country is attached to the Atlantic States by its natural situation. To be convinced of this truth, nothing more is necessary than to look upon the chart: all the commerce of that country must come through the States upon the sea-coast. We know, at Pittsburg, that we are a thousand miles nearer to the market than settlers at the mouth of the Ohio river. When we export our produce by that and the Mississippi, we know we can get easier home with our returns by the way of Philadelphia, than the others can by turning up and stemming the current of the Mississippi. Therefore, the imports for all that territory must come through the United States. From these considerations, I conclude it would be madness in the extreme for them to think of a separation, unless they were driven to it by a fatal necessity; they will be too sensible of its ill effects ever to attempt it.

But suppose, for a moment, that they break off from the Union, and even become our enemies, it would be good policy in us to get as much as we can from them first, especially as they are disposed to give it us; let us make them extinguish part of our national debt before they leave us. The soil and climate of that country, as I said before, will be great inducements for emigrants to settle there. If they were to break off, they would know how to get money enough from the sale of the territory to support their Government, without any other resource whatever. If I, as a resident in that country, had the remotest view of a separation from the Atlantic States, I should be sorry to see Congress sell an acre of that land; for selling it, in that case, would be neither more nor less than preventing us from putting the money into our pockets when we became independent. If they meditate independency, the most likely way to make them so, will be to let their lands alone, in order to supply them with funds sufficient to support them in the measure. If they are sold, it will not be in their power.

I apprehend it will be found that a Land Office will effect these objects better than any other plan that can be devised. If this should be effectual, and no doubt can be entertained but it will, the inhabitants of the United States cannot, with a good grace, be called upon for heavy taxes in order to pay the interest on a debt which can be so easily and properly extinguished. Every individual who contemplates the subject, will see how much it is his interest to buy a few dollars in certificates, and purchase a piece of land with them, which will annihilate the debt, and prevent the demand for taxes to pay the interest; besides, it will remain as a security to reimburse the principal to the proprietor, as the population of the country extends; but, at all events, it would be but advancing four or five years' interest, and the whole debt would be absorbed.

If we mean to sell our lands for ready money, or mean to trust, we have a superior advantage. It is more probable that the necessitous person who wants the land for the subsistence of himself and family, will labor harder to procure a property of this kind, and secure it for himself, than the speculator who never means to pay a farthing until he has received it from the sale of the land; besides, the necessitous person is better able to buy of Government than of the speculator, because he can get it cheaper. The purchasers of large tracts retail out their land to this class of men, and certainly charge them something for their trouble. But if we sell on credit, as under the Proprietary Government was the practice in Pennsylvania, those who take out small quantities get their land surveyed, and set themselves down; they cultivate the ground, and erect buildings for their own accommodation. Land, in this improved state, furnishes a better security to Government for any arrearage of purchase money, than a large tract sold on speculation, and which lies in the same state of nature as it did when it was disposed of, perhaps adding thereto the expense of making the survey. If the land must revert to Congress at last for default of payment, we get nothing in the latter case; whereas, when sold in lots, if a man has settled himself down, and paid for his warrant and survey, which costs the Union nothing, but for the first price and interest thereon, it must strike every gentleman's mind that it would be disagreeable, after a man had made a settlement for three or four years, to have to turn out. Rather than do this, he would make every exertion to discharge the price: if his situation was so wretched as not to furnish the means, some of his neighbors, on such security, might befriend him; but at any rate Government would be secure. By this argument, I do not mean to insist that Congress should sell their lands on trust; they may do so, or sell for ready pay, as their wisdom may think eligible. I shall be satisfied either way.

I think the convenience of the people is a subject not unworthy of being taken into view. My plan proposes that they should be able to perfect their titles on the spot. I fear not the objection which has been raised. It may be said, the titles ought not to be completed until it was done immediately under the eye of Congress. Let this be as it may, I will make one remark: can we not have every tie, every check, and security upon these officers that we have upon the collectors of the revenue? I think there is as much room for confidence in the one case as in the other. We can take care that the Secretary of the Land Office shall send in his accounts of patents and warrants. I think we may depend here upon a true return.

The Receiver of the office shall take nothing but public securities, which are not quite so great a temptation to embezzlement or illicit practices as money. The Surveyor will be a check upon both. I think the gentlemen employed in this business cannot be of very trifling character. In short, this department may be as well checked and balanced as any other; the expense of it will be nothing, because the officer may be supported out of the fees. This being the case, I shall conclude with moving that the committee adopt the resolution reported by the committee, and recommend it to the House to appoint a select committee to bring in a bill accordingly.

Mr. Fitzsimons asked if it would not be better to settle all the principles of the bill first, that the select committee might not lose their labor, as had been once or twice experienced, for want of this precaution.

He was in favor of some measure of this kind, though he had some doubts of the necessity there was supposed to be of establishing a Land Office.

The question was now taken on the resolution, and agreed to.

Compensation of the President, &c.

Mr. Vining wished to call the attention of the House to a business he apprehended not very lengthy; it was the report of a committee on the subject of compensation to be made to the President, Vice President, the members of the Senate and House of Representatives, for their services; he wished gentlemen to consider the situation of every one concerned in this business, themselves, and the continent at large. He hoped they would consent to take it up, and he flattered himself the discussion would not last longer than a day.

Mr. White wished to go into a Committee of the Whole on the business.

Mr. Fitzsimons did not like to enter upon a lengthy discussion of a point that was incapable of much elucidation by reasoning; he therefore was against going into a committee at this stage of the business. He observed, that the committee had reported something, and the members had been pretty generally consulted on the same. He hoped the House would despatch the business without delay or loss of time, if they were at all inclined to take it up.

Mr. White thought it necessary to go into a committee, because there were a number of things mentioned, the reasons for which appeared to him very uncertain.

Mr. Vining said it was a subject of considerable delicacy, and he supposed very few gentlemen would be inclined to speak three or four times on a point; yet this was all the advantage gained by going into a committee. He was no more interested than others; every gentleman might judge of his own case, but after it had been before a committee of twelve, in order to get the fullest sense of the House upon the subject, he was inclined to receive it without so much circumlocution. He observed, that the business had originated in a Committee of the Whole, and it was unusual to recommit it without showing some reasons why.

Mr. White gave up his motion for a Committee of the Whole, and said, before he consented to the report, he should be glad to know in what style it was expected that the President would live. He observed there was provision for the expenses of a house, furniture, secretaries, clerks, carriages and horses. Perhaps the sum proposed might be too much or too little. He should like to see an estimate of how much was necessary for keeping the table, the equipage, &c. before he decided. He hoped the committee would elucidate this subject.

There was another thing he wished to inquire of them. The Vice President's salary was charged at five thousand dollars; he could not conceive upon what principle that sum was reported. Did it bear a proportion to his services, or was it in proportion to what the members of the Senate and this House were to be allowed? There is nothing which obliges him to be attentive to his business. No doubt but the gentleman who holds that office at present will be regardful and diligent in executing the business assigned him; yet there is nothing to prevent the Vice President from residing at home and receiving his salary, without coming within the walls of the Senate room. The Union is obliged to support him; but I, said he, would make that support conditional; he should have a liberal provision while in public life, but no longer. As to delicacy, I know of none, sir, that ought to be used while we are in pursuit of the public good. I speak therefore with candor what are my sentiments on this subject. Other gentlemen, no doubt, do the same; but I am clearly for examining into the principles before I agree to the conclusion.

Mr. Page was sorry to see gentlemen spinning out the time to little purpose; certainly, after having the subject under consideration for nearly three months, they might be able to decide.

If this business was fixed, and gentlemen knew they were to have but moderate salaries, it might perhaps tend to make them more expeditious; but at all events, they ought to know the rate at which they attend, in order to regulate their expenses. To some it might be a matter of no concern, because they could bear every thing of this kind for a twelvemonth, without inconvenience; but they ought to consider the situation of others. We are, said he, keeping the President here without any provision for his support; but in this we may think ourselves right, because, in his patriotic ardor, his love for his country, he told us he was willing to pursue that illustrious example which he set during the period of our calamity; he refused compensation for his services. But the constitution requires that he shall receive a compensation, and it is our duty to provide it. We must also provide something for our own expenses, or it may reduce gentlemen not better prepared than I am to depend upon a friend for what the public ought to furnish.

Mr. Vining had said the subject was delicate, but he did not conceive there was any indelicacy in asking or answering questions on this or any other occasion, where the good of his country was concerned.

Mr. Lawrence did not know, whether the sum proposed was enough for the President or not; but according to the terms of the constitution, it ought to be granted as one sum, because he is to receive no other emolument whatever from the United States, or either of them. Now, if it is declared he shall receive twenty thousand dollars, and, exclusive of that sum, we make him an allowance for furniture, horses, carriages, &c., such an allowance is an emolument beyond the compensation contemplated in the constitution; but I have no objection to blend these sums together, declaring the whole to be the compensation required by the constitution. Besides, if we establish salaries for his secretaries and clerks, we establish them officers of the Government; this will be improper, because it infringes his right to employ a confidential person in the management of those concerns, for which the constitution has made him responsible. For these reasons, Mr. L. moved to strike out all that related to horses, carriages, furniture, &c.

Mr. Sherman thought it much better to give a net sum, because the President would then have no accounts to settle with the United States.

Mr. Sedgwick considered this a constitutional question, and therefore thought it deserved serious investigation. The provision made in the report, for paying the expenses of enumerated articles, does not leave the President in the situation intended by the constitution, which was, that he should be independent of the Legislature, during his continuance in office; that he should have a compensation for his services, not to be increased or diminished during that period; but there is nothing that will prevent us from making further allowances, provided that the twenty thousand dollars is all that is given as a compensation. By this construction, one of the most salutary clauses in the constitution will be rendered nugatory. From these considerations, he was led to believe that the report was founded on unconstitutional principles.

Mr. Baldwin said, the Committee of the Whole, when the business was before them, had not determined any thing on this point; that, consequently, the select committee were to frame a report upon such principles as they judged proper. In order then to have every thing distinct and accurate, they had brought their opinion forward in the form it now appears. If it be deemed proper to grant an aggregate sum, the House would no doubt add to the twenty thousand dollars, what it was supposed these expenses would amount to.

However, he did not think the constitution was infringed; it was intended that the compensation should not be increased or diminished, during the President's continuance in office. Now it might be as well fixed, by making the allowance in part money, and part furniture, &c. as by declaring a precise sum; it will still be a stated compensation.

Mr. Tucker thought furniture and plate ought always to be provided by government, because, if it was necessary for every new President to buy these articles, it might put him to great inconvenience, unless he received a year's salary in advance; besides, when he retired from his situation, they would not sell for half the first cost. He therefore wished this part of the report to stand, together with the rent of a house; but would join in striking out all the rest.

Mr. Madison did not think the report interfered with either the spirit or letter of the constitution, and therefore was opposed to any alteration, especially with respect to the property of a fixed nature. He was sure, if the furniture and plate, and house rent, could be allowed, some of the other articles might also. The horses and carriages will cost money, and sell for little, after being used for four years; this will be a certain loss to the President, or his family; besides the House have already undertaken to defray expenses of this kind, and so set a precedent for the enumeration which had been reported.

Mr. White said, if a certain sum was assigned for the expenses, the report would be better; but as it now stood, there was no certainty in it. One President might circumscribe it to a quarter part of the expense another would; consequently, the compensation could not be fixed.

He admitted the propriety of paying the salary in advance for the first year, as mentioned by the gentleman from South Carolina. He expected this would be sufficient to defray the extra expenses, without subjecting the President to any inconvenience.

Mr. Boudinot.—If the Legislature may provide the house and furniture, they may go further on the same principle, and provide for the rest; he was satisfied it should be so, because it could be no infringement on the constitution.

Mr. Livermore hoped the words would be struck out; indeed he was sorry they had ever been put in. The clause in the constitution is intended to tie down the Legislature, as well as the President; they shall make him no compliments while in office, he shall receive nothing but a fixed compensation for his services. Give him then this compensation, let it be equal to his usefulness; but do not direct him to employ so much to one use, and so much to another; it cannot be called a compensation when you direct how it is to be expended; besides, it was wrong on another account; why should we pretend to direct him in the style in which he shall live? Let him have a salary, and expend it in the manner he shall think proper.

Mr. Page was for striking out all the words, because he conceived it would be against the spirit of the constitution. It would be much more handsome to make one general provision, than to be thus particular in enumerating the articles of expense. It has been hinted, that these articles of expense would amount to half the sum mentioned in the report to be given as a compensation; if so, he would propose to strike out all that related to the subject, and so insert twenty-five or thirty thousand, as the House shall deem most eligible.

Mr. Stone thought the President ought to be at liberty to live in any style he thought proper, and that the House ought to give him such compensation as they thought his services merited. If you furnish him with a house, horses, and carriages, you declare that this is the house, the horses, and the carriages which he shall use. There is certainly some degree of indelicacy in this; if he was a private gentleman, he would be at liberty to use such as he liked best. Suppose he dislikes them, and will not have them, he is guilty of a breach of the law, is it intended by the House to impeach him for it? I apprehend it is not, for no part of the constitution gives us a right to dictate to him on this head. He would rather let the President set the example how he ought to live, than see the Legislature direct him. Economy is by no means disadvantageous to the United States; if the President chooses to live in an economical manner, we ought not to prevent him.

Mr. Vining thought, as the President was the representative of the nation, that there ought to be a proper degree of dignity attached to the office; he did not wish for splendor, but hoped to avoid the appearance of penury. If he was right in this opinion, the House had a right to show what they expected of the President, and, consequently, had a right to enter into the enumeration proposed in the report, and establish a uniform rule of conduct in the presidential chair.

With respect to its constitutionality, his mind was perfectly easy, the constitution appeared to be silent; if so, the House had the right of interfering. He wondered how gentlemen could agree to provide plate and furniture, yet hesitate with respect to the clerks and secretary. Were not the latter as necessary as the former? If so, they ought to be equally provided for.

The question on Mr. Lawrence's motion was now taken, and decided in the affirmative.

Mr. Page now moved to strike out twenty thousand dollars, and insert thirty thousand.

Mr. Smith inquired whether it was the intention of the House to saddle the President with the expense incurred, in consequence of their resolution of the 15th April. He understood that near ten thousand dollars had been laid out in purchasing furniture, and putting the house in order for his reception; it might be disagreeable to the President to take it. Perhaps he would be a considerable loser by such a bargain, and many of the things might be of a nature he disliked. He thought the House had been inconsistent with itself in ordering these things for the President, and then refusing to let them be applied to his use.

Mr. Sherman thought the House need not be embarrassed on this point. The expense is to be paid by the United States, and the furniture will be their property, to do what they please with. Neither did he think the House inconsistent, because it was the object of the Legislature, by their former vote, to provide only for the temporary accommodation of the President.

Mr. Benson said, the business had been properly conducted. It was not in contemplation to throw the furniture or any other expense upon the President. He presumed the property belonged to the United States, but they would sell to the President such part as he chose to purchase. As to the house, the President was not confined to it; he might give it up when he pleased, and take another if he thought proper.

The question on striking out twenty thousand and inserting thirty thousand was divided, and the first part was agreed to, but the latter rejected.

It was now moved to strike out the words secretary and clerks.

Mr. Madison thought the Executive Magistrate ought not to have the power of creating officers; yet if he appointed his secretary and clerks, and they were recognized, either with respect to salary or official acts, they became officers of the Government.

Mr. Benson did not think it necessary to recognize any such officers; they were to be esteemed the mere instruments of the President, and not as sharing in the administration.

The motion was put, and carried in the affirmative, and then the House adjourned.

Thursday, July 16.

Compensation of the President, &c.

The House resumed the consideration of the Report of the Committee on the Compensation to the President, Vice President, and Members of Congress.

The blank occasioned by striking out on Monday last, was now proposed to be filled.

Mr. Livermore moved to fill it with 18,000 dollars.

Mr. Burke said, there were some members of the committee in favor of 15,000 dollars; others indeed were for a much larger sum—he believed they went so far as 70,000 dollars; that 20,000 dollars was an accommodation, and as such he had agreed to it; but he was of opinion that 15,000 dollars was sufficient; that 20,000 had been once agreed to, but the expenses were added at a subsequent meeting of the committee; now, as the House had concurred in striking out 20,000 dollars, and a proposition was come forward more correspondent to his judgment, he should give it support.

Mr. Fitzsimons presumed it was not a question before the House what the report of the committee had been, nor were the sentiments any gentleman had there delivered to operate against the sense expressed by the committee in their report; if any thing done in committee was to influence the decision of the House, it must be the report, which spoke the sense of the majority. He further presumed, that when the 20,000 dollars were struck out, after all the expense had been erased, it was in the contemplation of the honorable mover to increase the sum so as to include both articles. It was with this view he voted in favor of striking out the 20,000 dollars.

Mr. Tucker said it might happen, that the expenses a President would incur at the first entering on the office would be so great as to injure his private fortune and distress his family. A quarter's salary might be insufficient to defray the expense; yet if the President continued but three months in office, this sum would be all he was entitled to. He thought it just and requisite to provide against accidents of this kind, if it could be done consistently with the constitution. With this object in view, he would propose that the President's compensation should be 26,000 dollars for the first year, and 16,000 dollars for every other year; that 10,000 dollars should be paid him in advance, on his coming to the chair, and the remainder in quarterly payments. Its amount, he said, would be nearly what was proposed by the gentleman from New Hampshire (Mr. Livermore); and if the House was disposed to fix on that sum, as a proper compensation, they might, without any material change, admit his proposition; but if they meant to grant either a greater or a less sum, he hoped they would accommodate it to his principle.

Mr. Stone said, that a sum of 25,000 dollars would be as small a sum as would answer the purpose; and provided that amount should be agreed to, the expense of the Executive would be less to the people than that of any Government in the world. If it is considered that the unavoidable expense will be great, and that the assistance of two or more secretaries will be necessary for the President to discharge his high and important trust, and that it cannot be expected that persons in such a station should be in straitened or dependent circumstances, this sum will not be found to exceed the absolute expense, with a moderate compensation for the services of the President. It is also a maxim of sound policy, that executive officers should be independent.

Mr. White.—Sir, I do not say that 25,000 dollars will or will not be sufficient; but in order to determine the necessary sum, I should wish to know the style in which the President is expected to live. If a style of magnificence and splendor is to be adopted, the sum is too small; and if economy is pursued, it may be too much. Until this is known, it will be extremely difficult to decide upon a proper sum; and when I give my vote, I wish to give it on such information as will satisfy my mind with respect to its propriety, and show my constituents the reasonableness of the measure. Will he live in a more expensive style than the former Presidents of Congress, or will he live nearly in the same? If so, what was that expense, or what will be the probable increase? How was that money applied, and what will now be necessary? If these questions can be answered, gentlemen may decide with more precision than they can while the subject is left afloat.

Mr. Baldwin said, it was impossible to get the information the gentleman required, the committee had made all the examination in their power with respect to the actual expense of supporting the office. They found former Presidents of Congress, whose office, by the by, was less important, and whose assistants were less numerous, expended 7,000, 8,000, and so on to 13,000 dollars annually. From this, some gentlemen were led to believe 17,000 dollars might be sufficient in this instance. But we were, said he, left without any thing satisfactory on this subject, and when the question was pressed on the committee, they varied from 15,000 to 25,000 dollars; we were therefore obliged to average the sum.

We were satisfied that it must be left to experiment to determine what the allowance ought to be; and we were certain that the gentleman who had to make the first experiment would do it in such a manner as to give satisfaction to every body. He knows the way to blend dignity and economy; and I would rather, on this account, make the allowance too much than too little. I would, therefore, prefer making the experiment at 25,000 dollars; a sum that, in the President's hands, will give umbrage to no one.

Mr. Boudinot made some further observations respecting the examination made by the committee, from which it appeared that the expenses of the President of the United States would exceed the expenses of the late President of Congress in a variety of cases. Two secretaries would be wanting; they must be men of abilities and information; but the committee conceived extra provision would be made for them by the House. If the whole was to be comprehended in one grant to the President, he would rather increase the sum reported by the committee than diminish it. Originally he was in favor of allowing 16,000; but then he thought the expense of secretaries, carriages, furniture, &c., was to be an additional allowance. Since the House had determined otherwise, he favored an addition to the 20,000 dollars.

Mr. Jackson was disposed to move 30,000 dollars; but he was willing to accommodate, and agree to 25,000 dollars.

Mr. Vining observed, that the committee had no documents whereby they could form a judgment; they had no light to guide them. They could not foresee what ambassadors and foreign ministers might be sent to this country, nor the expenses the President must necessarily incur upon that account, to support the honor and dignity of the United States. He further remarked, that there are cases in which generosity is the best economy, and no loss is ever sustained by a decent support of the Magistrate. A certain appearance of parade and external dignity is necessary to be supported. Did I, said he, represent a larger State, I would speak with more confidence on the subject. We are haunted by the ghost of poverty; we are stunned with the clamor of complaint throughout the States. But under the auspices of an energetic Government, our funds will be established and augmented, and, I make no doubt, will be found sufficient to answer all the purposes of the Union. But our calculations ought not to be confined to the present moment alone. If it should be contended by any gentleman, that we have it not in our power to support the Government in a proper style, then there is an end of the business. We should remember that the present time is the season for organizing the Government. A patient and mature deliberation is requisite to investigate it, and by that means the amount of the civil list will be increased; in future, the sessions will be short, and the load of expense greatly diminished. He was opposed to any reduction of the sum, as he had always thought it too small, and would rather propose to fill the blank with 30,000 dollars.

Mr. Page mentioned that 30,000 dollars had been proposed; though he thought the sum adequate, it was not sufficient to support pomp and parade. Those, he said, were entirely out of the question. He had made a calculation upon the probable necessary expenses, and found, that exclusive of that dignity and pageantry talked of, this sum would suffice. If he had contemplated the splendor and pageantry alluded to, he should not have thought of 30,000 dollars, nor 40,000 dollars, for he believed 100,000 dollars insufficient. But if the committee, upon investigation, were convinced that 20,000 dollars would be a compensation for his services, exclusive of an allowance for his expenses, when the whole was taken together it must at least amount to 30,000 dollars; for this reason he moved to fill the blank with that sum.

The question on 30,000 dollars was put, and rejected.

Mr. Page then moved 25,000 dollars, which was carried; affirmative 30, negative 17.

The House then proceeded to the second part of the report, viz: "That there be paid in like quarterly payments to the Vice President of the United States, 5,000 dollars per annum."

Mr. White.—I do not like the principle on which this provision is made for the Vice President; there is nothing, I believe, in the constitution which gives him a right to an annual sum; it fixes no duty upon him as Vice President, requiring a constant attendance. He may be called upon to act as President, and then I would give him the salary of the President; at other times, he is to preside as President of the Senate, then I would pay him for his services in that character. On this principle, I shall move to strike out the clause; if that is agreed to, I propose to offer one, allowing him the pay of President, when he acts as President; and a daily pay during the time he acts as President of the Senate.

Mr. Page would second the motion for striking out five thousand dollars, but with a different view from what had been intended by his worthy colleague. He wished it struck out, in order to introduce a larger sum. His idea was, that a proper proportion was not observed between the salary of the First and Second Magistrates. As to the utility of the office, he had nothing to say. He had no hand in forming the constitution; if he had, perhaps he should never have thought of such an officer; but as we have got him, we must maintain him; and those gentlemen who talk of respectability being attached to high offices, must admit, in a comparative view, that he is not supported with dignity, provided a situation derives its dignity from the money given him by way of salary; for his part, he thought money, abstractedly considered, could not bestow dignity. Real dignity of character proceeds from a much nobler source; but he apprehended the people of the United States, whose representative the Vice President was, would be displeased to see so great a distinction made between the President and him.

Mr. Sedgwick said, the arguments of the honorable gentleman from Virginia (Mr. White) did not strike him with any force, nor did he see the impropriety spoken of. One reason why the pay of the members of the Senate and House is per diem is, because they contemplate their being together but a very inconsiderable part of their time; but I suppose, said he, that every gentleman who has considered the subject, has determined in his own mind that the Vice President ought to remain constantly at the seat of Government; he must always be ready to take the reins of Government when they shall fall out of the hands of the President; hence it will be necessary that he should, for this cause, if not for any other, preclude himself from every object of employment, and devote his whole time to prepare himself for the great and important charge for which he is a candidate. Under these circumstances, it is necessary that he should be provided with a constant salary, to support that rank which we contemplate for him to bear; I therefore conceive it must be such a perpetual salary as the President is entitled to receive. If the principles of the motion are inadmissible, it cannot be supported by argument, because very little information can be obtained on which to ground our reasoning.

Mr. Seney said, that, according to the constitution, a compensation is to be made for services performed. The Vice President may absent himself the whole time. He proposed giving him a handsome allowance while employed, but thought he ought to be paid per diem.

Mr. Sherman adverted to the circumstance of salaries being allowed to Lieutenant Governors in the several States where such officers are appointed; so that, according to this mode, the grant made to the Vice President would correspond with the practice of the States individually. It appeared also, he said, to be necessary, inasmuch as this officer would be taken from all other business.

Mr. White.—If I thought, sir, the attendance of the Vice President as necessary as that of the President, I would not hesitate to allow him an annual salary; but I do not conceive it to be so necessary; it is not made so by the constitution. If he had been appointed Vice President as a perpetual counsel for the President, it would have altered the case; he would then have had services to render, for which we ought to compensate him. The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Sedgwick) has intimated that he will be precluded from following any other business; there is nothing in the constitution which precludes him from following what profession he thinks proper. I am willing to pay him a full and liberal allowance for all the services he renders; but I do not think we are authorized to institute sinecures for any man.

It ought to be considered that the Vice President has personal advantages from the appointment to that office; it holds him up as the successor of the President; the voice of the people is shown to be considerably in his favor; and if he be a deserving person, there will be but little doubt of his succeeding to the presidential chair; not that I would make this an argument to diminish his compensation. I would pay him amply for all the services he renders, at least as amply as the Government and circumstances of the people will admit. When performing the duties of President, he should receive the salary as such.

The constitution has stipulated, that the President shall be compensated for his services, that we shall ascertain it by law; but it has not said one syllable with respect to the pay of the Vice President; hence I consider it would be improper to pay him on any other principle than in proportion to his services. If these require five thousand dollars a year, it may be made to amount to that sum, at so much per diem.

As to the observations of the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Sherman,) that Lieutenant Governors receive salaries in the several States, and therefore it will be proper to grant one to the Vice President, in order to comport with the practice of the States individually, I shall only remark, that in some States they have no such officer; in others, where they have such an officer, they give him no pay at all; in some, they are paid according to their attendance on business, in the manner that I propose to pay the Vice President. But admitting that every State had an officer of this kind, and that they paid him a salary like that proposed in the report, it would be no argument why the General Government should pursue a practice inconsistent with that economy and sense of propriety which it ought to be the study of the Representatives of the people of the United States to preserve to their constituents.

Mr. Madison.—I do not concur, Mr. Speaker, in sentiment, with my colleague on this subject. I conceive, sir, if the constitution is silent on this point, that it is left to the Legislature to decide according to its nature and its merits. The nature of the office will require that the Vice President shall always be in readiness to render that service which contingencies may require; but I do not apprehend it to be in our power to derive much advantage from any guides furnished by the examples of the several States; because we shall find them differently provided for by the different Governments. If we consider that the Vice President may be taken from the extremity of the continent, and be from the nature of his office obliged to reside at or within the convenient reach of the seat of Government, to take upon him the exercise of the President's functions, in case of any accident that may deprive the Union of the services of their first officer, we must see, I think, it will often happen that he will be obliged to be constantly at the seat of Government. No officer under a State Government can be so far removed as to make it inconvenient to be called upon when his services are required; so that, if he serve without a salary, it may be he can reside at home, and pursue his domestic business; therefore the application in that case does not appear to me to be conclusive.

My colleague says that he will derive advantages from being in the line of appointment to the presidential chair. If he is to be considered as the apparent successor of the President, to qualify himself the better for that office, he must withdraw from his other avocations, and direct his attention to the obtaining a perfect knowledge of his intended business.

The idea that a man ought to be paid only in proportion to his services, holds good in some cases, but not in others. It holds good in legislative business, but not in the executive or judicial departments. A judge will be sometimes unemployed, as in the case of the Vice President; yet it is found necessary to claim the whole of his time and attention to the duties for which he is appointed. If the principle of proportioning the allowance to the quantum of services performed obtains, it will be found that the Judiciary will be as dependent on the legislative authority, as if the Legislature was to declare what shall be their salary for the succeeding year; because, by abridging their services at every session, we could reduce them to such a degree, as to require a very trifling compensation indeed. Neither do I, Mr. Speaker, consider this as a sinecure; but that will appear from the reasons already given. The office of a judge is liable, in some degree, to the same objection; but these kinds of objections are levelled against the institutions themselves. We are to consider his appointment as a part of the constitution; and if we mean to carry the constitution into full effect, we ought to make provision for his support, adequate to the merits and nature of the office.

Mr. Ames said that the Vice President's acceptance of his appointment was a renunciation of every other avocation. When a man is taken from the mass of the people for a particular office, he is entitled to a compensation from the public; during the time in which he is not particularly employed, he is supposed to be engaged in political researches for the benefit of his country.

Every man is eligible, by the constitution, to be chosen to this office; but if a competent support is not allowed, the choice will be confined to opulent characters. This is an aristocratic idea, and contravenes the spirit of the constitution.

Mr. Seney.—This, sir, is a subject of a delicate nature, and the discussion of it rather disagreeable; but I think it my duty to declare my sentiments freely upon it. No argument has been adduced to convince me that the Vice President ought to receive an allowance any more than the other members of the Legislature. He cannot be compelled to perform any duty. This is an important subject, and ought to be maturely considered, as a great deal depends on the decision which will now take place.

Mr. Burke observed that the situation of our finances was so much embarrassed, as to dis-empower us from giving such ample salaries as we might, under different circumstances, think necessary; that it was but reasonable the Vice President should receive a compensation adequate to the second officer in the Government. He will be subject to extra expenses by living at the seat of Government, and will be obliged to maintain his dignity. Mr. B. further suggested that the sum might not be fully sufficient, but in our present situation, it was as much as we could afford.

Mr. Ames, in his reply to Mr. Seney's observations, pointed out the difference of the situation of the Vice President and the members of the Legislature.

Mr. Sedgwick made some additional remarks of a similar nature, and further observed, it would be necessary that the members of the House should return and associate with their constituents, in order to learn their sentiments and their feelings, and witness their situation and wants, that they may consequently resume their former occupations: but with respect to the Vice President, his acceptance must be considered as an abandonment of every other pursuit; he must reside at the seat of Government, and will necessarily incur extra expenses in consequence of his office.

Mr. Stone.—I am for giving such salaries to the officers of this Government, as will render them easy in their situation. But we are confined by the constitution; salaries are to be given for services performed; they are considered in no other light. The Vice President cannot be viewed in any other light than that of the President of the Senate. I am for his being paid per diem, but would allow him a generous support. I do not think five thousand dollars are sufficient; I would allow him a larger sum, which allowance, per diem, would amount to what would be fully adequate.

Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, said, that by the constitution the Vice President could not be considered as a Senator, and therefore could not, with any propriety, be paid as such. Considering him as an officer in the Government, next in dignity to the President, and particularly designated by the constitution, he must support a correspondent dignity in his style of living, and consequently ought to have a competent allowance for that purpose. He did not think five thousand dollars would be considered too much, and would vote for that sum. The idea of a daily allowance must be given up, as inapplicable to the situation assigned him by the constitution. He is there recognized as Vice President, and as such ought to be provided for. A daily pay of twenty-five or thirty dollars would appear a large compensation; yet if Congress sat but one hundred days, which, in all probability, would be the length of their future sessions, it would be insufficient for his support. But suppose it one hundred and fifty days; this, at thirty dollars per day, would come so near the proposed salary, that the saving would be an inconsiderable trifle; but if the session was longer, it might amount to more than is contemplated by any gentleman.

Mr. Page was clearly for making the allowance by annual salary, because the office was permanent; a daily allowance could not be relied upon, because if the Senate sat but a few days, it would be incompetent, even at one hundred dollars per day; whereas, if the session was of long continuance, that sum would be more than the services could require, if they are to hold a comparison with those of the President. If the House agreed to strike out the five thousand dollars he would propose eight thousand, which was not one third of what was given to the President.

Mr. Boudinot.—The question seems to turn merely on this point, whether the Vice President shall receive a per diem allowance, or an annual salary? The constitution ought to serve as the ground on which to determine it; therefore we are to consider the point of view in which this office is placed by that instrument. The second article calls him into view with the President; he is to be elected in the same manner as the President, in order to obtain the second best character in the Union to fill the place of the first, in case it should be vacated by any unforeseen accident. The constitution considers him a respectable officer; he is to supersede the President, when it shall happen that the First Magistrate dies or is removed on impeachment and conviction. These are the great objects of his appointment. His duty as President of the Senate is only collateral; consequently he ought to be respected, and provided for according to the dignity and importance of his principal character. If still inferior duties were attached to him, would it be an argument for reducing the compensation to an equality with what ought to be granted, if he performed such inferior duties only? I apprehend it is a principle of this nature which urges gentlemen on to press the amendment. I cannot see any reason for differing with the constitution on a point in which I think it ought to guide our decision.

I think there is an affinity between the duration of the office and the compensation. The constitution establishes the office for four years; the compensation ought to be made commensurate with that idea.

The question on Mr. White's motion was taken and lost, as was Mr. Page's motion for striking out 5,000 and inserting 8,000 dollars.

The proposition being then agreed to,

The House proceeded to consider the following: That the daily pay of the members of the Senate, and House of Representatives, for their attendance at the time appointed for the meeting of their respective Houses, and for the time they shall be going to, and returning therefrom, allowing the travel of twenty miles for each day, be six dollars, and of the Speaker of the House of Representatives twelve dollars.

Mr. Sedgwick moved to amend this proposition, so as to give to the members of the Senate six dollars per day, and five to the members of the House of Representatives. His reason for introducing this distinction was, that the convention had made it in the constitution. The Senators are required to be of an advanced age, and are elected for six years. Now this term taken out of the life of a man, passed the middle stage, may be fairly deemed equal to a whole life; for it was to be expected, that few, if any, of the Senators could return to their former occupations when the period for retirement arrived; indeed after six years spent in other pursuits, it may be questioned whether a man would be qualified to return with any prospect of success.

He did not say six dollars was more than a compensation for their services and expenses; but as economy ought to be particularly studied by the Legislature, he had moved to reduce it. He hoped gentlemen would pay some deference to the public opinion, on the present occasion; this he thought to be in favor of small salaries. Not but a different sentiment might prevail in some of the States; perhaps different circumstances might warrant the difference of opinion. It was probable that five dollars laid out in that part of the Union from which he came, would be more advantageous to the person, than a like sum laid out at the other extremity of the continent; but he believed, nevertheless, that something would be left to those gentlemen out of the five dollars per day, after their expenses were paid; but even if a little self-denial was the consequence of this reduction, it would do but little harm; whereas the precedent might have a salutary influence upon the future administration of the Government.

Mr. Jackson.—I am opposed to this discrimination, because all have alike abandoned their particular pursuits in life, and all have equally engaged in the service of their common country. On what principle can this distinction then be contended for? Is it expected that a Senator shall eat more, or drink more costly liquors, than a member of the House of Representatives? I presume it is not; their expenses must be nearly equal. I can see but one reason that can be assigned for this difference, which is, that the Senate may sit longer than the House; but considering they are to receive pay accordingly, this reason is of no weight. The duties of both Houses are equal, and the pay ought to be alike.

I will submit to the gentleman who brought this motion forward, whether it is not much worse to the personal interest of men in business to be taken off in the prime of life, than after the successful pursuit of some profession at an advanced age, when the natural and proper time of retirement arrives; and if so, his argument falls to the ground. But if the reverse is true, it will not support his motion, because, if we look around, our senses will inform us that this House contains as venerable and aged members as any within the walls of the Senate; thus again we are upon a footing. Now, unless gentlemen mean that we should depress ourselves, and thereby set the Senate above us, I cannot conceive what foundation there will be for a discrimination.

Mr. Lee.—I am in favor of the motion for discriminating between the Senate and this House, because the constitution has done it in a variety of modes. The qualifications are superior; a Senator must be a man advanced in life, and have been nine years a citizen of the United States; while a younger man who has been but seven years a citizen, may obtain a seat in this House.

The constitution has made a difference in the mode of election. The Senators are selected with peculiar care; they are the purified choice of the people, and the best men are likely to be preferred by such a choice; those who have shown the fullest proofs of their attachment to the public interest, and evinced to their countrymen their superior abilities. In order to bring forth such characters to partake of our public councils, I think every motive of honor and of interest ought to be called into action. If men are not brought forth who will maintain their own dignity, and promote the public interest by a firm and independent conduct, regardless of every risk, regardless of the voice of calumny or popular clamor, our Government will soon lose its importance and its energy. I contemplate, Mr. Speaker, the Senate as a barrier between the Executive and this branch of the Legislature, shielding the people from any apprehension of being attacked by an aspiring Magistracy on the one hand, and on the other from being desolated by the anarchy often generated by a time-servingness to veering popularity. We shall gain these desirable objects at a trifling price, if we make a distinction of two or three dollars per day—a trifling allowance indeed to our most worthy sages. But, said the gentleman last up, there are as young men in the Senate as in this House; although there be, the time will come when none but the most venerable and respectable of our citizens, men whose hoary heads are silvered over with the honors of an experienced old age, men illustrious by their virtues and capacity, will have the public confidence ensured to them by the purity and notoriety of their principles.

Now is the time to deliberate and view every future circumstance which may arise from our decision; the importance of this principle hereafter, is infinitely above every advantage which the present members may derive from it. By it alone you may secure dignity and permanency to the Government, and happiness under its administration.

It is with difficulty, Mr. Speaker, that you can draw forth men of age and much experience to participate in the political concerns of their country. Retirement and reflection are incident to that period of life; they are sought for, and, when obtained, they are highly prized. The wise and virtuous sage, who from the monitions of nature has discovered that his remaining years will be but few, must be incited by every motive that can operate on the human heart to continue those labors which he seeks to bury the remembrance of in the deeps of solitude. Honor may stimulate the ingenuous mind; but interest is a great reason of action, and may be usefully employed to influence old age.

What I have now urged is in favor of the constitutional distinction; I approve of the amendment, but I wish the sum had been left out, that the provision might be determined according to the sense of the House, and not affect the principal question of discrimination. I am satisfied, sir, that there is no heart within these walls but beats with patriotic ardor, and has determined to pursue the noblest object, the public good. Nothing but the anxiety I feel for this, as connected with the present question, could have induced me to trouble the House with a repetition of what was dilated upon, on a former occasion. Let it then be considered, that on our decision depend the dignity of the Legislature, and the perpetuity of that Government, the glory and the hopes of the people of America, which, if now disappointed, must be succeeded by confusion and gloomy despair.

Mr. White.—I object, sir, to a discrimination. I cannot perceive that difference in the constitution alluded to by the gentlemen. Among the Senators and the people in some of the ancient commonwealths, an artificial and political distinction was established, which was the case at Rome, in particular. There the Senators were considered as possessing some degree of divinity, and the rest of the people were not admitted to associate with them. Can it be supposed that the name of Senators will render those members superior to their fellow-citizens? I cannot see any difference in the general estimation between a Senator and a Representative, however great their sentiments may vary in their respective States; and cannot conceive why any discrimination should be made in their allowances.

The independence of the members of this House may be injured by such a distinction; and the Senate, at some future day, may have it in their power to carry points, and be enabled to prolong the session, when it may be of great inconvenience to the House.

Mr. Madison was of opinion that a discrimination was necessary; he observed, that it had been evidently contemplated by the constitution, to distinguish in favor of the Senate, that men of abilities and firm principles, whom the love and custom of a retired life might render averse to the fatigues of a public one, may be induced to devote the experience of years, and the acquisitions of study, to the service of their country. And unless something of this kind is adopted, it may be difficult to obtain proper characters to fill the Senate, as men of enterprise and genius will naturally prefer a seat in the House, considering it to be a more conspicuous situation.

Mr. Moore did not see the propriety of the discrimination proposed; the business of each House is equal, or if there is a difference in their legislative concerns, it is in favor of the House. He had no idea of giving the public money for such an idle purpose as the support of a fanciful dignity and superiority. His idea of the business was, each member ought to be compensated for his services, and nothing further.

Mr. Vining.—The arguments brought forward by my honorable friend from Virginia, (Mr. Lee,) have not proved satisfactory to my mind, that his favorite opinion with respect to discrimination is right. He has told us that the sages of America will be selected, and placed in this distinguished situation. True, sir, I expect venerable and respectable characters will find their way into every branch of the Government; but when I consider the mode in which the Senate is elected, I apprehend we may have there men whose wealth has created them the influence necessary to get in. If any thing is to be expected by this refined choice, it is that men of rank and opulence will draw the regard of the small and select circle of a State Legislature; while the Representatives in this House, being the choice of their fellow-citizens, among whom rank and dignity are rather unpopular, will consist of men in middling circumstances. Now if any thing is to be drawn from arguments like these, it is in favor of this House. But the whole of this is a subject on which we are better able to decide from our feelings, than from our discussions.

I am against the motion for another reason, sir; it goes to reduce the compensation, which I think is already set too low, to furnish good security for the happy administration of the Government. In considering this subject, there are two important objects necessary to engage the attention of the Legislature. First, that the compensation be not made an object for indigence to pursue; and second, that it be not so low as to throw the business of legislation into the hands of rich and aspiring nabobs, but such as to compensate a man in the middle grade of life. These are generally men of business, who are fittest to conduct the concerns of their fellow-citizens. Now, in compensating this class of men, (for I would have the compensation proportioned to this class,) I do not take into consideration the sacrifices they make, by dedicating their time and abilities to the service of their country; but I confine myself merely to a compensation for their time and services. If the compensation is made an object for indigence, we shall have the sessions protracted to an extreme length, and the expense will be increased; if we make the reward barely commensurate with the services, you will have men of abilities, who will despatch the public business, and return to their private pursuits. If the business is done without pay, it may be productive of the most enormous evils. Were every member of the British House of Commons allowed a thousand guineas a year, they would be less venal; we should not find them purchasing their seats, and selling their votes, for places and pensions. The very money given in this way would furnish a handsome compensation for every member, and add something considerable, annually, to their sinking fund.

I apprehend, in establishing a compensation, we shall put it in the power of gentlemen, while here, to live as independent as they can at home. Perhaps I hazard a conjecture, when I say there is not a gentleman on this floor, I am certain there are not many, but have found, from experience, that six dollars per day is adequate to that object; certainly it cannot be the wish of any man to make the public service unpleasant, by rendering the situation of the members of Congress less eligible than a solitary retirement from patriotic pursuits would be. Any man who lives decently, will find six dollars a day not more than sufficient to defray the expense of a casual residence in a splendid city.

The experiment has been made. If a gentleman keeps a servant and his horses, and means to reciprocate the civilities he receives, I again assert the compensation is inadequate. It is true, we may live for two dollars a day; but how? There is a dignity attached to the situation of a Representative, with respect to his country; and the compensation might be seven or eight dollars per day, without granting the members more than a bare compensation. From all these considerations, I am induced to hope that gentlemen will indulge a little, and rather support an increase, than a diminution of pay.

As to the discrimination, it has been once decided against by a considerable majority; I have no doubt but it will now meet a similar fate; but be the decision of the House what it may, with respect to the quantum, or manner of compensation, I shall never fear to deliver my sentiments. On the present occasion, I wish them known to my constituents, and I am much mistaken if they are not coincident with their own.

Mr. Seney.—I am sorry, sir, that the question of discrimination has been brought before the House. Can any reason be assigned for making this distinction? Are the services of the Senate of more importance than those of the Representatives? I think not. Gentlemen have brought forward the constitution upon this occasion, but I conceive it to be opposite to the very principle they mean to advocate. This will destroy the independence of the several branches, which is to be strictly observed. If a discrimination should be established in favor of the Senate, will it not naturally tend to create a sense of inferiority in the minds of the Representatives? And the time may come when they may find it their interest to become subservient to the views of the Senate. I feel so sensibly, sir, the impropriety and unconstitutionality of this measure, that had I the most distant idea it would comport with the sentiments of a majority of the members of this House, I should call for the yeas and nays on a division of the House upon the question. But as I do not conceive that to be the case, I shall waive the proposition for the present.

Mr. Sedgwick said, that whenever he had a motion to make before the House, he endeavored to satisfy himself of the reasonableness and propriety of it. If he thought it proper, he did not consider the mode of decision that might be adopted of any material consequence; but in determining the present question, he hoped the yeas and nays would not be called. There is a principle in mankind which revolts at the idea of inferiority; a proposition, for example, shall be made, that has for its object the establishment of a superiority (howsoever necessary;) that principle is alarmed and excited to opposition; to discuss such a question as the present, we ought to be divested of every partiality and prejudice, that might bias our judgment in deciding an affair that will not bear the test of reason and experience. I conceive the precedence of the Senate has been clearly pointed out by the Constitution. There are grades in society which are necessary to their very existence. This is a self-evident proposition; it is recognized by every civilized nation, and by the House in the report before us. For what reason have we made a difference between the President and Vice President? Is it not on account of his superior station and his dignity? And between the Vice President and the Senate? This distinction is likewise established by the constitution in the difference of the terms for which the members of the Senate and those of the House of Representatives are chosen. The time for which the Senate is chosen, demonstrates the propriety of a difference being made in the pay they ought to receive; the duties of their office require they should renounce every other avocation; their attention will be wholly taken up in the discharge of public business; therefore they should have an adequate and an independent allowance. The generality of the members being so far advanced in years, will drop every idea of engaging any more in their several professions, after having once engaged in the service of their country. Their age, wisdom, and experience, all warrant this discrimination. He concluded by saying, that the real dignity of the House was, he thought, so far from being diminished by adopting the proposition, that he conceived it was essentially connected with it.

Mr. Stone thought the House ought not to assist in elevating one branch of the Government more above the other than the constitution had done. This had given influence to the Senate by a negative in the cases of treaties and appointments. It had given importance to the House, by vesting them with the sole power of originating money bills. But both these powers could be exercised without a discrimination being made in the pay of the members; therefore he inferred that it was not contemplated by the constitution to make any such distinction.

A discrimination may eventually operate to the public injury; the House of Representatives may be desirous of terminating the session, but the Senate, finding the compensation they receive quite agreeable, may be inclined to protract it. He thought the true way of deciding on this subject, was to make the same allowance to both, and let it be such as not to induce them to protract the session on the one hand, or have a tendency to hurry over the business on the other.

Mr. Jackson said, in reply to the inquiry of Mr. Sedgwick—"Why have we made a difference between the President and the Vice President?" that the whole of the President's time would be taken up in the duties of his station; that the Vice President might retire to his farm whenever he thought proper. We refer, said he, to the wisdom of the Senate; but how is this superior wisdom to be discerned? If on this account a distinction is to be made, it necessarily follows that a difference should be made between the members of this House, and those of the Senate. We cannot be too cautious how we establish an undue pre-eminence, and give an influence and importance to one branch of the Legislature over the other. All governments incline to despotism, as naturally as rivers run into the sea. Despotism makes its way gradually, by slow and imperceptible steps; despotic power is never established all at once; we shall, ere we are aware, get beyond the gulf, and then we shall be astonished how we reached there. The services of the Senate are not more arduous than ours; their proper business is legislation, and I will never consent to any discrimination. If I imagined the question would be determined in favor of discrimination, I would call the yeas and nays, and should it be determined in favor of it, I will still call them on purpose that my constituents may see that I have voted against a measure which I look upon as injurious to the Government.

Mr. Page.—If he thought the discrimination proposed would have the tendency which some gentlemen apprehended, he would be the last man on the floor to support it. He would be as careful as any man how he extended the influence of any part of the Government, or gave it the least inclination towards aristocracy. But he apprehended gentlemen were deceived in their principle—he did not believe the doctrine that money confers importance, and he wished to evince to the world, that money, under this Government would have no such effect. The Senate having more duties to perform, may require a larger pecuniary gratification; but this will not add to their importance. It will require something of this kind to stimulate gentlemen to undertake the service; for his part, he might consent to come here for two years, in order to assist in public business, but no inducement, hardly, could engage him to undertake it for six years. On this consideration, he thought the Senate ought to have annual salaries, and to such an amount as would render their situation independent and eligible.

If gentlemen are afraid of an aristocracy, they ought to be careful not to make the compensation too low, so as to exclude men of middling fortunes; the men of rank and distinguished opulence might serve without any pecuniary compensation; but the Government would not be safe, if it was exclusively in such hands. He wished to discriminate in favor of the Senate, but he would rather increase their pay to eight dollars, than reduce that of the members of this House, while he considered it but a moderate compensation.

The question on Mr. Sedgwick's motion was taken, and lost by a considerable majority.

The House having now gone through the report, it was Ordered, that a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant thereto, and that Messrs. Burke, Stone, and Moore, be a committee to prepare and bring in the same: with instructions to insert a clause or clauses, making provision for a reasonable compensation to the Secretary of the Senate, and Clerk of the House of Representatives, respectively, for their services.

After which the House adjourned.