Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Monday, January 12.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the bill from the Senate, entitled "An act to authorize the settlement of the claim of Samuel Prioleau;" and, after some time spent therein, the committee rose and reported progress.

Defence of the Frontiers.

A Message was received from the President of the United States, laying before Congress, for their consideration, the copy of a letter from the Secretary of War,[57] accompanied by an extract from a memorandum of James Seagrove, Agent of Indian Affairs. The Message and papers were read:

Mr. Murray then moved that the Message should be referred to the same Committee of the whole House, to which had been referred the memorial from the inhabitants of the South-western Territory.

Mr. Nicholas objected strongly to this motion, as showing too much deference to the Heads of the Departments. The paper in question ought not to have been sent to the House at all.

Mr. Murray defended his motion. He inquired how the gentleman proposed to get information? Was he to manufacture it himself, or in what way could he better obtain it than from the Heads of the Departments? He had not, for his own part, that species of jealousy of them which the gentleman last up had.

Mr. Nicholas repeated his arguments with some warmth. He said that the letter from the late Secretary at War was not official, but officious. It had a particular aspect which should forbid its getting any such mark of attention. It was neither more nor less than a commentary on some of the proceedings of the last session of Congress. If this was received, we might expect the table to be heaped with such things.

Mr. Sedgwick could really see no reason to reject the motion. The President had undoubtedly a right to send the communication. The subject was confessedly of the utmost importance. The member asked, if the House were to close their understandings, and refuse all information from that quarter? He repeated that he could see no ground of any sort for refusing consent to the motion.

Mr. Giles was equally dissatisfied with the matter of this letter, and with the manner in which it had been introduced into the House. They were both equally exceptionable. The letter had come without any call. It was an Executive comment on a Legislative proceeding. It was a defence of a measure adopted by the Senate, and it condemned by implication another of that House. To Mr. G. it was a very extraordinary paper. The President was not to be supposed, however, answerable for the propriety of its contents. He should be very unwilling to take any notice of this paper at all. It had been justly remarked that it was a comment on transactions of the last session. A section of a bill passed in the Senate last session, and rejected by the House of Representatives, was inserted in it, and recommended. This paper might operate very materially on the deliberations of the House. This was a very bad precedent. The Executive had nothing to do with any question depending before the Legislature, and consequently had no occasion to send such a thing.

Mr. Holten imagined that the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Murray) had extended his motion too far. It ought to have comprehended only the taking into consideration the Message of the President.

Mr. Murray complained of the asperity of expression employed by a gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Nicholas.) Not official but officious, and the intelligence artificial, were phrases to which he objected. The gentleman might have higher sources of information than he had. Mr. M. was willing to take up with information wherever he could get it, and he could have it nowhere with more propriety than from the national servants. It was no good reason to reject information merely because we had not asked for it. Mr. Giles had given a piece of intelligence which Mr. M. said was to him entirely new, viz.: that when the House wanted information, it was one of their rules not to refer for it to the Heads of Departments. The topic was great and important, and the House, before they rise, must examine in general into the situation of the South-western frontier, and our terms with the Indians. Mr. M. said, that the delegate from the South-western territory (Mr. White) would certainly be glad to obtain the information conveyed in this paper. If any gentleman would point out any other way by which the House could, without absurdity, get from the President the information contained in this letter, Mr. M. should be willing to adopt it.

Mr. Boudinot was entirely satisfied both as to the propriety of the matter contained in the letter of the Secretary, and as to the manner in which it had been introduced into that House. That the President had a right to consult the Heads of Departments, there could be no kind of doubt. Mr. Boudinot then read the following passage from the constitution: "The President shall be Commander-in-chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States. He may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the Executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices." Mr. B. defended the Message in all its circumstances, and in the most pointed terms. It was perfectly proper, and peculiarly so at this time. By the constitution, and by the rules and practice of the House, the President had a right to offer his advice regarding Legislative acts.

Mr. W. Smith had seen much needless jealousy in the House towards Heads of Departments; and the present he thought a refinement on that side. There had been two objections to the communication from the Secretary of War, the one as to the matter, and the other as to the manner in which it was introduced to the House; as to the latter, it was said to have been obtruded unasked. In this last objection Mr. S. saw nothing. He read a precedent from the Journals, which he insisted to be exactly similar, and where Mr. Nicholas himself had been one of a committee appointed to examine and report. As to the matter, we might as reasonably object to the Speeches of the President, reminding the House of business which had been before them, or recommending subjects to their notice. He considered the objections of both sorts as entirely unfounded.

Mr. Madison recommended the alteration suggested by Mr. Holten, for restricting the motion of commitment to the Message of the President, and not to take any notice of the letter from the Secretary, which he considered as, in itself, extremely improper. It could not be meant as information, and the House had no occasion to take advice from the Secretary. The letter itself looked more like a forced thing, than any which he recollected to have seen since the establishment of the constitution. The subject, however, was delicate. The President had an undoubted right to give advice or information in any way which he thought best. It was totally ill-judged in the Secretary to have conveyed his opinion in the very words of a clause in a bill that had passed through the Senate last session, and been rejected in that House. The communication translated into plain language amounted to this: "The Senate last session had more wisdom than this House, and it is proper for this House to reconsider its proceedings, and improve by the superior wisdom of the Senate." Due respect should, however, be paid to the Message of the President. It ought to be taken into consideration, and Mr. M. was not willing to cast obstructions in its way, or to make needless objections.

Mr. Dayton said, that he was for referring the Report of the Secretary at War, with the President's Message, to the Committee of the Whole, and that consequently he was against striking out the words which expressed that intention. If, by omitting to take any notice of the Report of the Secretary, it was meant to reject the information on account of the source from which it came, it argued such a degree of jealousy and distrust as appeared both unreasonable and unconstitutional. If, on the contrary, the object was not so much to reject it, as, by the manner of referring the Message, to convey any reproof or disrespect towards the late Secretary of War, Mr. D. should be still more decidedly averse to the modification proposed. He lamented it as an unhappy circumstance for this country, that the gentleman who was lately the Head of the War Department had thought proper to resign. That gentleman had executed the complicated and important duties of his office with zeal, fidelity, and ability, and ought to be protected from any proposition or remark which glanced unfavorably at him, or might wound his feelings at the moment of his leaving us. Mr. D. then adduced the Report of the Secretary of War in 1790, to the President, on the subject of the militia system, as a striking precedent. The Secretary there informed the President, that he had submitted to him a plan for the arrangement of the militia. The President sent a Message with the plan to the House of Representatives. What were the steps then taken in that parallel case? Was the Message then alone referred as it is now proposed by some gentlemen? The journals, on the contrary, prove, that the Message and plan were referred to the Committee of the Whole. It was possible, Mr. D. added, that the present Congress might deem themselves wiser than their predecessors. It was possible that many might think it safest to shut their ears against all kinds of information from the Heads of Departments, or even from the President himself. There might be some who would be willing to free the House of Representatives from certain obligations, or shackles under which the constitution placed them, by tearing out a leaf from that instrument, but he ventured to say that it was too soon yet to attempt it.

Mr. Smilie complained of the style of the memorial from the Secretary of War, and, as a specimen, he read the following passage:

"It is a melancholy reflection that our modes of population have been more destructive to the Indian natives than the conduct of the conquerors of Mexico and Peru. The evidence of this is the utter extirpation of nearly all the Indians in the most populous parts of the Union. A future historian may mark the causes of this destruction of the human race in sable colors. Although the present Government of the United States cannot with propriety be involved in the opprobrium, yet it seems necessary however, in order to render their attention upon this subject strongly characteristic of their justice, that some powerful attempts should be made to tranquillize the frontiers, particularly those south of the Ohio."

In reading the above extract, Mr. M. went no farther than to the words sable colors. Mr. S. Smith desired that he should read on, that the House might hear that no insinuation was intended, as if the present Government of the United States had countenanced such ravages. Mr. Smilie said, that he knew what came after, but who would compare the first settlers of North America to the Spaniards, who destroyed in their mines thousands and millions of the Indians, and whose memory had been consigned to the execration of centuries?

Mr. Ames rose. Just when he had begun speaking, there came in a message from the President by his Secretary. On this, Mr. A. observed, that, perhaps, while gentlemen were now speaking there might have arisen a new subject of dispute. Perhaps by the new doctrine, we should reject all communications from that quarter. The message having been delivered, Mr. A. went on to remark, that turning loose the American militia to guard the South-western frontier, was a system of slaughter, of desolation. It was to make a Potter's field a hundred thousand miles in extent! It was a system to waste the blood of the white man, and to extirpate the Indians. The militia were not the people to prevent those kind of injuries against the Indians which were the cause of hostilities. But gentlemen who were now so delicate as to the style of memorials, would do well, if they extended that delicacy to other memorials which had been presented to that House, and referred by the consent of those very members to select committees. Papers had been offered to that House, wherein its conduct had been criminated and reprobated in the most unqualified language of detestation. Yet gentlemen, on some of these occasions, showed no resentment. Mr. A. ridiculed the idea of the present motion as introducing a new and dangerous precedent. The opposition to it came exactly under that description, for it was a direct attack upon the principles of the constitution.

Mr. Fitzsimons approved of the motion. It had been asked if the President was responsible for the contents of this Report from the Secretary of War? Mr. F. did not think so; but if he had not communicated it, the member would have thought him responsible for the omission. The President had a right to ask advice from the Heads of the Departments. Mr. F. never knew a message from the President which required a reference, that had been refused it. As a matter of course, as a matter of right, it ought to be referred.

Mr. Murray rose and read that passage in the Report of the Secretary, which Mr. S. Smith had desired Mr. Smilie to read, and which he had not read. [They are inserted both together at full length as above.]

Mr. Nicholas moved an amendment, and which was seconded, for striking out the latter part of the resolution proposed by Mr. Murray. This made it merely a reference of the Message from the President to the Committee of the Whole, and omitted all notice whatever of the Report from the Secretary of War.

Mr. Sedgwick really thought this a squeamishness for which he saw no manner of foundation.

Mr. Giles arose. He said that a gentleman from Massachusetts had asserted that some members considered the whole constitution as entirely in this House. This imputation was a thing of so serious a nature, that Mr. G. wished the gentleman to point out the person to whom he alluded. If it respected Mr. G. himself, the assertion was unfounded. It was not true. He had the highest respect for every branch of the constitution. This was a charge frequently made by one side of the House. Gentlemen had called the contents of this paper information. He saw in it nothing but what the House knew without the assistance of the Secretary. He considered the report as an effort upon the opinion of this House, as an attack upon its independence, and that in a very indelicate way. He thought the report in all respects unworthy of the notice of the House. He hoped that this paper would not be committed, but that the Message of the President would be so.

[The passage in the report repeatedly referred to as having been borrowed from a bill passed in the Senate, last session, is in these words:

"That all persons who shall be assembled, or embodied in arms, on any lands belonging to Indians, out of the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory south of the Ohio, for the purpose of warring against the Indians, or committing depredations upon any Indian town, or persons, or property, shall thereby become liable and subject to the rules and articles of war, which are or shall be established for the government of the troops of the United States."

This was a section of a bill which the Senate passed the last session, entitled "An act for the more effectual protection of the South-western frontiers," but it was disagreed to by the House.]

Mr. Kittera considered this as entirely a dispute about words, or plainly about nothing at all. Gentlemen from Virginia were more jealous of the Executive than even the constitution itself. Mr. K. was satisfied that the President had a right to interfere in the Legislative proceedings with his opinion and advice. There was neither principle nor precedent for the amendment of Mr. Nicholas. The dispute was merely about words, because if the Message of the President was referred to a Committee of the Whole, the report in question would, in any case, be referred along with it.

Mr. Ames rose again to make some remarks on the danger of extending too far the privileges of the House of Representatives over the other House. The moment that this House is turned into a Convention, there is an end of liberty. As to impropriety and indelicacy of style, he could wish that the cognizance of members might extend to memorials addressed to the House, that we may not have addresses disrespectful to it. He entirely vindicated the conduct of the President as to this matter, and saw a peculiar propriety in his having made the communication at present on the table.

The question was loudly called for; but Mr. Nicholas rose in reply to Mr. Ames. Would any man call this a communication from the Executive? Mr. Ames spoke a few words in a low tone of voice. Mr. N. proceeded, "The gentleman prevaricates." "I prevaricate, sir!" rejoined Mr. A. Mr. N said, that at best he went off from the point. As to the precedent produced by Mr. W. Smith, it was quite inapplicable. It bore no resemblance or connection to the one before the House. The other adduced by Mr. Dayton was, he admitted, in point. But that gentleman would admit that it occurred in the infancy of the constitution, which was an excuse for it. He hoped that the amendment would go through.

Mr. Tracy quoted something which Mr. Nicholas had said. That gentleman immediately answered, that he had been misquoted. I know, said Mr. Tracy, as well as that gentleman, what he said. Mr. Nicholas got up a second time, and repeated what he affirmed were the words which he had really spoken. He did not say so before, said Mr. Tracy, but I am content that he should say so now. I only beg that he may not interrupt me. As to the motion for striking out one-half of the resolution, Mr. Tracy looked upon it as out of all propriety. The President had sent a letter of two lines, enclosing a report from the Secretary of War. To refer the former without the latter, would be like referring to any person the superscription of a letter, but adding, at the same time, you must not look at the inside of it. Mr. T. did not care from whom the report came. If it contained useful information, that was all he wanted to know. And, supposing it had been sent from a Democratic society, that of itself would with Mr. T. be no reason to refuse it a reference. He then observed how much more deference had been paid by that House to Democratic societies than was now paid by some gentlemen to the President. Much care had been taken that a vote of censure should not be passed on them. It looked as if gentlemen wanted to grasp all power within this body. The amendment was wrong in point both of principle and practice. To refer a mere superscription, (for the letter of the President was nothing more,) would look strange enough. The resolution, as amended, was in a state of hostility with common sense.

Mr. Lyman was in favor of the amendment for striking out the words in the latter part of the motion. He thought it improper to refer to a Committee of the whole House the report of the late Secretary of War, because it was of an amphibious nature. It was not a mere official statement of supposed facts, but the reasoning on these facts. He was sensible that precedents could be found on the journals, which sanctioned a commitment of similar reports; but, for his part, he had ever thought the practice improper, and he must meet the question as it appeared to him. He said, that the constitution authorized the President of the United States, nay, it made it a duty incumbent on him, to give information, from time to time, of the state of the Union. He was also equally required to suggest, for the consideration of the House, whatever he thought expedient; but there was a most material difference between communicating information, and argument or inferences deduced from it. The official information would always, without doubt, be reports from the different departments, and, therefore, would have the credit and weight which was due to it; but whenever plans or arguments were communicated, they should have the responsibility attached to the signature of the President. What was the case in the present instance? Had the Executive avowed the plan of the Secretary of War, or his reasoning? He was persuaded, from the communication itself, that the President did not at all espouse the report as his own wishes or opinion; for there was nothing in the Message implying that the report had been officially required, or that any one sentiment was from the high authority of the Executive. As to the Secretary of War, Mr. L. had a respect for him, and believed that he had discharged the duties of his office with ability and fidelity, but it implied no censure to decline hearing his arguments. All that the House wanted was facts and information. They were fully competent to the suitable deductions. As to the observation of his colleague, that the House were abridging the powers of the Executive, it was so far from being the case, they were only reclaiming what had been remitted and disused; and he had no fears that they would abuse it.

Mr. Hillhouse thought that gentlemen were spending time in a very trifling way. It is the duty of the House to hear information from every quarter. He was against the amendment.

Mr. J. Wadsworth said, that some gentlemen had been offended at the comparison in the report between the North American settlers and the Spaniards. Mr. W. remarked, that if gentlemen would look into two historians, the one of Virginia and the other of New England, they would see bad enough work. If the Spaniards, or any other nation in history, had acted worse, he was much at a loss to comprehend what their proceedings could have been. As to Pennsylvania, much had been said of the purchases from the Indians of their lands; but where was the difference between shooting an Indian and catching him in a trap? And, as to the conduct of the Pennsylvanians, when they drove the Indians back to Pittsburg, that was sufficiently cruel. We have murdered them from the beginning, said Mr. W. As to the question on the amendment, he knew perfectly well that the President had acted exactly conformable both to the constitution and the practice of the House. To refuse committing the report of the Secretary along with the Message, would be an affront, not to the Secretary, but to the President.

Mr. Madison looked upon the expression, as to the Spaniards, as being extremely exceptionable. It had escaped, perhaps, inadvertently. The Secretary would not have used it in a report to the House, nor would the President have employed it, as from himself, in any Message to the House. Mr. M. was for the amendment. It was natural enough that the Secretary, when communicating his sentiments in a private manner, should make use of illustrations for enforcing his opinion that he would not have adopted in an official paper.

Mr. Page was persuaded that the Report from the Secretary of War contained nothing new, or, if new, nothing which may not as well be used when in the hands of members, as when in those of a Committee of the Whole. If the amendment had been to throw the Message under the table, more warmth could not have been shown, in charging the opposers of the motion for reference to a Committee of the Whole with indecency to the President, and with a design at usurpation of his power, &c. It is said, that a jealousy has been betrayed by some members of an encroachment on the privileges of this House. Surely, a most unnecessary and unreasonable suspicion has also been betrayed by others, of a design in the gentlemen who supported the motion of Mr. Nicholas, to encroach on the powers of the Executive. Expressions have been used not consistent with decency and order. Gentlemen have been charged with a factious spirit, favoring indecent remonstrances, and with slighting and treating contemptuously the Message from the President. Some members have, at another time, been charged with speaking, not to the House, but to their constituents, in order to gain their votes at an approaching election. Mr. P. said, that his respect for the Government, and for the President, was equal to that of any man in the House. He was far from wishing to reflect on the late Secretary of War. Mr. P. had never, by any vote, censured his conduct, and he entertained no wish for his resignation. But he was at liberty to think the report given to the President wrong, the communication of it to the House as unnecessary, and even if necessary, as sufficiently acted upon when printed and put into the hands of the members. He might have no doubt respecting the constitutionality of the Message from the President, or of the report of the Secretary to him. He might require no precedents from the Journals to prove that the motion for referring that Message was perfectly in order. But he might doubt whether the substance of the report was of such a nature as to require the consideration of the Committee of the Whole. He might also doubt whether the report was of sufficient importance to require the most mature consideration. There might be circumstances attending the manner of its introduction, as some members allege that there were, which render the report improper to be referred to a Committee of the Whole. It would be a precedent for referring every Message, and that would be attended with unnecessary delay. It will be paying a superfluous compliment. If the information came from the poorest citizen, and was sufficiently important, he would refer it, but though it came from the President or Senate, and contained nothing which, in his opinion, required a commitment, he should vote against it. Mr. P. was for the amendment of Mr. Nicholas.

Mr. S. Smith remarked, that the principal objection made by the gentleman who spoke last, (Mr. Page,) to the commitment of the report was, that it contains nothing new. The observation will apply with equal justness to a great part of what has been said on the subject before the House. He wished, therefore, that the question might be immediately taken.

The amendment was negatived without a division, but by a very great majority. The motion, as it originally stood, was then put and carried.

Tuesday, January 27.

Reduction of Salaries.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the motion of the twenty-third instant, "that a committee be appointed to bring in a bill or bills to amend the act entitled 'An act for establishing the salaries of the Executive Officers of Government, with their assistants and clerks;' and an act 'for allowing compensation to the members of the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, and to the officers of both Houses;' and to reduce all such salaries as, in the opinion of the said committee, after having made due inquiry, ought to be reduced."

Mr. Claiborne said: A worthy gentleman from Maryland, the other day, suggested an amendment to the proposition now before you, which I understood to contemplate the increase of some salaries; and, if that gentleman can reconcile it to himself and his constituents, let him move and carry it, if he can. For my part, I am pleased with the proposition as it is, and yet it may have great imperfections. It is very common for fond parents to be blind to the imperfections of their own offspring; and, as this is a production of my own, it is probable that I may be under the same delusive prejudices, but I hope that cheerful acquiescence which I have always shown to the majority, has sufficiently evinced that I am no bigot to my own opinions. I said, the other day, that I was determined, if the proposition must die, it should be by assassination; but as, in this, a degree of guilt is implied, and might be attended with serious consequences to those concerned in it, I should be satisfied to give it a fair trial, and, if it must die, that it may be by legal and fair adjudication, or, in other words, after full and fair discussion of its merits.

We now have fairly before us a proposition that contemplates a redress of these grievances, which, since the adoption of the present form of Government, have been a subject of grievous complaint and heartburning amongst citizens of the United States. Many of them, and, I believe, a very great majority, conceive that the exorbitant salaries established to the Legislative, Executive, Judiciary, and their assistants, are not consistent with, or can possibly contribute to the existence or well-being of a Republican Government, which, in its nature, holds out the idea of equality and justice, but which, in the present mode of administration, cannot fail to have a direct opposite tendency, inasmuch as the very profuse salaries that all who have the good fortune to get places under the pay and influence of the present Administration, if they make a prudent use of them, must ultimately enrich and place them in a situation so far above the vast bulk of the citizens, whose industrious fingers are not permitted a single dip into those very coffers which have been swelled by filching a little from that hard-gotten pittance already far inadequate to the necessary but very ordinary subsistence of their families, as at last to endanger the very existence or shadow of this glorious and dear-bought Government, that has already raised the drooping and once-dejected heads of the poor American citizens, who now glory more in having thrown off that subordination that was assumed and exercised over them under the late detestable Monarchical Government, by their rulers, or public officers, than even in their lives and fortunes. Men begin to know the inherent rights of human nature. They have dipped into and tasted a little of the sweets of political regeneration, and, amongst all classes of your citizens, you may discover a zeal that amounts to enthusiasm, that lives and burns and grows almost to a prodigy. Instances are not wanting, sir, to evince that thousands of those who were not fond of this Government at its adoption, are now, on all occasions, ready to step forth in its support, and the laws that are passed consistent therewith. But this does, by no means, argue that they will submit for ever to repeated abuses of the Government, which may ultimately tend to its overthrow; and exorbitant salaries, with other profuse appropriations of the public money, at a time when the nation is groaning under an immense weight of foreign and domestic debt, which (calculating upon the blessings of peace, and of course, a very increasing revenue, not reasonably to be calculated on so long a time,) it is agreed on all hands will take a term not less than thirty-two years to extinguish. Here I shall again be told, that the price of house-rent, and every other necessary of life, has increased, and may continue to increase, so as to drive all your officers out of your service. To this I beg leave to answer, that, if you continue such high salaries, or increase them, as in some instances it is asked, and because of the present enhanced price of the necessaries of life, I think the evil will increase in proportion to the immense sum of money that you throw into circulation, for a redundancy of that, or any thing else, will always diminish the value; and, if the present custom of disbursing the public money is persisted in, the whole wealth of the United States must shortly centre in and about Philadelphia! But, sir, by the adoption of public economy, we may shortly become able to obviate this great evil, and make our disbursements more diffusive, by paying out money to those who have demands upon your justice, distributed over the United States, if any but those who reside around the seat of Government have any demand upon your justice or goodness. I am apprised that the proposition is a very unpopular one here, and that many will perhaps knit their brows at me; but, sir, when I entered into public life, it was without any cringing views. I meant not to court smiles, or fear frowns, and I had no doubt but I should meet my share of both. When I gain the former by proper conduct, I have pleasure in it; when the latter by improper conduct, I am sorry for it. But it will be much to be lamented if ever we see the day when the people shall be suffered to complain from year to year of any grievance, and their Representatives shall be ashamed, or afraid, to make those grievances known, or ask redress, lest they be laughed out of countenance, or lose favor at Court. But so hardy am I, if you prefer that expression, that, while I have the honor of a seat in this House, none of those considerations shall ever deter me from stepping forth in their behalf; but, be the result of this proposition what it may, I now warn you against evils that may come, as you have been heretofore warned of evils that have come, for the obligations of power and submission are reciprocal. It is as much your duty to pass wholesome laws, as it is the duty of the people to obey them. And now, having done my duty, I shall take my seat, content to abide the result, but hope a committee will be appointed.

Mr. Nicholas declared that he would be very willing to vote for the appointment of such a committee, if he could see any good purpose to be derived from it, or if the gentleman who laid the resolution on the table could give him any information that tended to prove its expediency. For his own part he had but a small family, and of that he had left one-half behind him in Virginia, yet he found that his allowance as a member of the Legislature was barely sufficient for supporting this half of his family, though he lived with as much economy as he ever had done in his life. He was certain that he should not take one shilling of public money home with him to Virginia. He requested gentlemen to remember that it was not the present Congress who had given six dollars per day to themselves, but that it had been fixed by their predecessors, and fixed at a time when living was fifty per cent. cheaper than it is now.

Mr. Boudinot observed, that he should not have troubled the committee on this question, had it not been for several considerations particularly applicable to himself. He was as impartial on the present debate as any member on the floor. After the close of this session of Congress, he never expected to receive a farthing of public money again, and therefore no interest of his own could sway his judgment improperly to object against the resolution on the table. He had been among the number of those members who originally were for fixing the compensation of members of Congress at a less sum than six dollars; not because he thought it beyond the amount of their expenses, but, from an idea of the then deranged state of the finances, and that, if sacrifices were to be made, they should begin with this House. He appealed to his uniform conduct for six years past, to prove that he had always opposed an increase of salaries or other public expenses, when the interest of the Union did not require it. He did not doubt that the gentleman who brought forward this resolution thought he was doing his duty in advocating it; and Mr. B. thought it was equally the duty of the committee to be convinced that they were not wasting their time in unnecessarily proceeding in business, without having some foundation for rational inquiry.

Mr. B. did not doubt but there were uninformed individuals, who might object to six dollars per day; but he was confident that the well-informed among the citizens of the United States, and those who reflected on the subject, would think (at the present day at least) it was not more than would barely pay the reasonable expenses of gentlemen who attended to their duty here in a proper manner. Almost every article of consumption was from twenty to thirty per cent. higher now than it was at the commencement of the Government.

The Constitution of the United States, as the act of the people and the public voice, contemplated a compensation to the members of Congress. Did not this mean something more than the bare discharge of their expenses? Yet Congress had not gone beyond it.

When Congress sat at New York, Mr. B. said that he was in a situation more favorable in point of expense than any gentleman on the floor, who did not reside in that city. He boarded with a near relation, and was in a manner in his own family; and, although he paid the usual price of boarding as at other places, yet there were a thousand nameless small articles which saved him many advances. He was within sixteen miles of his own family, from whence he received many things that prevented his laying out money. During three sessions, he kept an exact and faithful account of his expenditures, and, at the end of that time, the balance was but 43s. 4d.; but on which side of the question his memory did not allow him to say. At present, he was also under very peculiar advantages, yet he was confident that, at the end of the session, he should not have any balance in his favor from his compensation as a member. Mr. B. appealed to every gentleman's own knowledge, and particularly to the gentleman who made the motion, if he thought that what he received would more than pay his expenses.

Gentlemen were often crying out against an Aristocracy in this country; yet measures of this kind tended to establish one, by reducing the compensation of members, so that no citizen but the rich and affluent could attend as a Representative in Congress. This certainly was the most effectual way of bringing about a dangerous Aristocracy in the United States. Should not men of abilities, though in the middle walks of life, be encouraged to come forward and yield their services to their country, without being dependent on any person or set of men whatever? Is it not sufficient that their time and talents are given to the public? Must they pay their expenses too?

Mr. B. was aware that the resolution proposed related to the officers of Government as well as members of Congress, but he had confined his remarks to the last, as the part of the subject he was best acquainted with. He begged gentlemen to look around and point out the public officer who received more than a reasonable reward for his services. Professional men, of the first abilities, were absolutely necessary to carry on the public business; and could any one, fit for his office, be shown who could not do full as well, if not much better, in the exercise of his profession in private life than he did in the public service, if pecuniary matters were his only object? In short, (Mr. B. said,) this House was placed between Scylla and Charybdis. The public officers were complaining, and even resigning, for want of sufficient compensation for their services; on the other hand, an attempt was now made to reduce their salaries still lower, on the supposed clamors of the people. Mr. B. did not believe they could be denominated those of the people; neither did he see any evidence of the fact. He did not consider the complaints of a few individuals as the public voice. Ought not the gentlemen to come forward with some kind of calculations or estimates to have shown that certain salaries were too high, or more than the services performed were entitled to? This had not been done; but the committee were urged, at this important moment, to proceed to an inquiry, which every gentleman on the floor already knew as well as he could do by the most labored investigation. He therefore concluded that, to agree to the resolution, would be a waste of the short time that yet remained of the session, and an unwise measure. Mr. B. would have contented himself with joining the committee in a silent vote on this subject, but he thought the observations made in support of the measure ought to receive some answer, if not to convince the committee, yet to satisfy their constituents that there could exist no necessity for a present inquiry of this nature.

Mr. W. Smith said, that the resolution was, in its present shape, so extremely vague, that one did not know how to give it a definition or a vote. Different objects were lumped together. If, by an inquiry, the gentleman meant to examine into the wages of members of this House, it was quite needless to appoint a committee, because every member can at this moment speak for himself. But Mr. S. did not consider the present time as the most proper for beginning to reduce salaries, when, within the last twelve months, there had been three resignations, viz: the Secretary of State, the Secretary of War, and the Secretary of the Treasury, and all chiefly for one reason, the smallness of the salary. I have no doubt (said Mr. S.) of there being complaints, and, if the salary was reduced to three dollars per day, there would be still complaints, as we see is the case with the members of the Legislature of Pennsylvania. He only wished that the committee would rise, and he should then vote in the House that they might not have leave to sit again. The mover of this resolution had mentioned the danger of meeting with reproaches from the people, who thought their salaries too high. Mr. S. saw very little in this matter, because the people who railed at the salary of six dollars per day, were only anxious to get in themselves, and embraced this topic as an expedient of ousting those members whom they wanted to succeed.

Mr. Goodhue wished to ask Mr. Claiborne one question, "Whether he found himself growing rich?"

Mr. Sedgwick saw no occasion for rising, because the committee were perfectly competent at this moment to determine the question.

Mr. Rutherford was for reducing the salaries by one dollar per day, and one dollar every twenty-five miles that the members had to travel. This would be a reduction of one hundred dollars per day, which would be much better bestowed upon the innocent widow of the veteran, who had fallen in the service of his country.

Mr. Page said, that he did not think the resolution, as it was worded, was a proper subject for discussion in that place; for the House, and not a committee, could properly resolve that committees should be appointed. However, as the resolution had been submitted by the House to the consideration of the Committee of the Whole, it must be examined; but, as to the object of it, that he thought was more properly before the committee, as proposed by the resolution; for, as I have remarked on other occasions, if, instead of discussing a question fully, and collecting the sense of all the members in a Committee of the Whole, it be referred to a committee of one member from each State, that committee might be unanimous in favor of a resolution, against which, eighteen members for Virginia, and a proportionate number from other States, might vote; or, by the weight of that committee, the resolution might be carried, which could not have passed had it been fully and freely discussed in the House. Here, then, my colleague's question should be examined, as I cannot say (as has been said by one of them) that I had no hand in fixing the salaries and pay of the officers of Government and members of Congress, having actually voted at New York for them as they now stand. I think I may, with propriety, give my opinion respecting it. And I am clearly of opinion, sir, that the question arises from a misapprehension of the subject to which it is applied; for there cannot be a greater mistake than to suppose that parsimony in a Republic is necessary to its support. A certain degree of economy is so; but parsimony, applied to the salaries of public officers, and the Representatives in particular, may be ruinous to the interests of a Republic. Should the salaries be so low that men of small fortunes cannot afford to serve their country, it must be deprived of their assistance, and we must accept of the services of the rich, who, to have their wills, though low, will serve even without pay; or, the State will be served by artful demagogues, by ready, designing men, who may, in pursuit of profit as well as popularity, cut out places for themselves and friends, producing at length confusion and anarchy, or, at least, such a bungling system of legislation as will cost more time and money to rectify their blunders than the most extravagant salaries could amount to. What true Republican could wish to exclude from a seat in Congress a physician, lawyer, merchant, farmer, or any other person possessed of such well-known abilities and virtues as to attract the attention and respect of a district which might wish to intrust its interests to him as a Representative? Or, rather, who ought not to desire that, as all offices are open to all, that the son of the poorest citizen might be enabled, if qualified to fill a seat here or elsewhere, to do it without sacrificing his private interest? Is it reasonable to expect that men should sacrifice domestic ease and the interests of their families to serve their country? It is not just to require it. Human nature, except on great and trying occasions, cannot obey such a requisition. My colleague says that he is not a man of fortune; but, has he not a profession by which he can make more than by his attendance on this House? If not, he has not a right to require such a sacrifice of any other person's time and talents. The constitution, far from requiring any thing like it, demands that compensation shall be made for all services; and who will desire less for services than a mere subsistence for a person whilst actually employed in such service? I am sure that less than the present pay of members of Congress would not, in their present situation, be a subsistence. I recollect that, when the House of Representatives were debating, in the first session, at New York, whether their daily pay should be four, five, or six dollars, I affirmed that the expenses of the members where I boarded required that it should be six, that the State of Virginia having once allowed her delegates to Congress eight dollars, and never less than six, when she bore the whole expense, could not object to her Representatives receiving that sum, when divided, as it was, amongst the States, and spread out over the various duties and taxes of the United States. I asked those, as I might ask my colleague now, who of our constituents could calculate what he would save by any proposed reduction of our pay? I have long suspected, sir, that Republics have lost more by parsimony than they were aware of, and that a misapprehension of some practices in ancient Republics has been artfully kept up, so as to favor Aristocracy and Monarchy. The British Parliament has now no pay; but have they been as independent as their countrymen wished them under the British Government?

In reply to the member who had objected to the pay of the Speaker, and the difference between the pay of members of the two Houses, Mr. P. said, that whoever would consider the duty of the Speaker; his long confinement to the chair; his painful attention to every word spoken in the House, and his responsibility for the correctness of the journals—an examination of which must take up much of his time—would surely not think his pay too great. As to the difference between the pay of a Senator and Representative, he had voted for it, from a belief that a Senator having more services to perform than a Representative, had a right to more pay. The Senate not only have to originate bills as this House has, and to revise and amend bills sent from hence, and often to correct the careless errors they contain, but to make themselves acquainted with the law of nations, and to be prepared to judge of treaties; and also of offences brought before them by impeachments. When the Senators may have gone through the labors of a long session, and the Representatives are returning home, they may be called upon to consider certain nominations to offices, or certain treaties; and at another time to try certain impeachments. Besides all this, the age of a Senator must be such, by the constitution, that it is probable that his family is larger, and his pursuits in life more fixed and profitable than those of a Representative, who may be elected when only twenty-five, and therefore his services must require higher compensation. As to the President and Vice-President's salaries, I voted for a larger sum than was allowed to either, and thought that the disproportion between them was too great. With respect to the judges, I still think their salaries too small, and so should every one think who will consider the vast importance of their office; the labor of both mind and body which it requires; the laborious course of study through which a man must have gone to be qualified for it, and the lucrative employment such a one must have given up to undertake it. In short, I do not recollect a salary which I think too high. And I must repeat it, that I do not think that large salaries in a Republic can injure it; but that small, inadequate salaries may overturn a Republic.

I am sorry that the question has been brought before us respecting our own pay this session, because the elections in Virginia are not over; it would become us much better another session, if re-elected, to reduce it, than to do so when we may be left out. Besides, if I vote for a reduction, I may be suspected of courting popularity; and, if against it, of despising the opinions of my constituents, if they have adopted those which some members tell us prevail amongst their constituents. I do not like to be in such a dilemma, nor to have my independence unnecessarily tried. I wish, as the question is before us, that it may be fully debated here, and even referred to the further consideration of a select committee; because I think the opinions even of a single member and his district should be treated with respect; and that when they have been fairly proved to be founded in error, there will be an end of complaints, and an acquiescence in the decision of this House.

Mr. Gillespie proposed an amendment, the scope of which was, that a committee should be appointed to examine and report whether any and what alterations were necessary in the act fixing salaries to the officers under Government. He suggested this amendment from no motive whatever but what was fair. There had been, and there still was, a degree of clamor upon the subject, and it was the duty of the House to pay attention to the voice of the public, whether right or wrong. If, upon investigation, it should appear that the salaries were not higher than they ought to be, then the report of the committee would be the best method for stopping the public clamor.

Mr. Claiborne hoped that the committee would not rise, but decide the point. He trusted that no gentleman would again point at him, and say that the motion came out of his brain. There was not one officer under Government whom he would point out and say, that such an officer had too high a salary. He had expectations that this discussion, by bringing forward the observations of several gentlemen, would in some degree satisfy the people, and that there would be no more pointing out with a finger and saying, "There goes a six-dollars-a-day man."

Another member observed, that it was the duty of the House to attend to the voice of their constituents, and for this reason, he should vote for a committee. He would mention what he had always considered as a most odious distinction, the additional dollar per day, which is to be paid to the Senate from and after the 4th of March next. [The reader will observe, that by the act, members of the Senate were to have seven dollars per day, but the additional dollar was not to commence till the lapse of six years,[58] when all the Senators of the first Congress had gone out.] There was another thing for which he never could see any reason, and that was the giving of the twelve dollars per day to the Speaker.

Mr. Giles was perfectly convinced that the allowance to the members is small enough already. The saving of a dollar per day suggested by Mr. Rutherford, would be but little, and it was beginning at the worst of resources. The pay ought to be such as would bring persons of middling circumstances into the House; persons neither too high in life nor too low. If the pay was greatly reduced, none but very rich people could afford to give their attendance, and if too high, a seat in the House might be an object to persons of an opposite description. Formerly the State of Virginia allowed eight dollars per day to the members of its Legislature. This sum had since been reduced to six dollars. Mr. G. mentioned this to show that in the practice of individual States, there might be found a precedent for the allowance to members of Congress. He was for voting directly. Mr. G. said, that there was a country from which America had copied a great deal, and very often too much; a country which still had a very pernicious influence in the United States. The members of the British House of Commons received no wages, while the officers of State had immense salaries. It was however understood, that the British House of Commons were very well paid for the trouble of their attendance. Mr. G. did not wish to see scenes of that kind in this country.

Mr. Hillhouse hoped that the House would have done with this thing immediately, as it had now answered all the purposes expected from it, and he trusted that all motions of that sort which had an eye to certain operations out of the House, would meet with the same fate.

The motion was negatived by a very great majority.

[Before the adjournment, the Speaker suggested to the House a considerable inconvenience, occasioned by gentlemen being introduced, and occupying such parts of the House without the bar as were particularly allotted for the use of the House, and of which several members complained. There was often so great a crowd that members could scarce walk round when they had papers to present to the Chair. The passage was often obstructed when messages were to be delivered, and frequently there was no room left for the members when they wished to confer privately with each other. As he did not conceive himself authorized to give special directions without orders from the House, he would take the liberty to suggest to the members of the House, when introducing their friends, the propriety of placing them under the galleries to the left of the Chair, and reserving the space to the right of the Chair for the members of both branches of the Legislature, the diplomatic gentlemen, judges, and other officers of Government; which was generally acquiesced in.]