Monday, November 17.
Two other members, to wit: from Rhode Island, Benjamin Bourne, and from South Carolina, Andrew Pickens, appeared, and took their seats in the House.
Delegate south of the Ohio.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee to whom was referred the letter from James White, together with the credentials of his appointment as a Representative of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio.
Mr. Swift objected to complying with the report of the committee. He thought that it could not be carried into execution, because it involved inconsistencies. If the object of the law referred to, was to admit this person to debate, and not to vote, that was unconstitutional. He was, by that law, to be a member of Congress; but the House of Representatives are not Congress, and, therefore, this person may equally vote in the House of Representatives and in the Senate; while, at the same time, he may interrupt the President consenting to a bill, by giving his advice. The constitution has made no provision for such a member as this person is intended to be. If we can admit a delegate to Congress or a member of the House of Representatives, we may with equal propriety admit a stranger from any quarter of the world. We may as well admit the gallery, or a foreign Minister, as this person from the territory south-west of the Ohio. At this rate, we may very soon overturn the constitution. If this person has any proper title to a seat, it must be in the Senate; it could not be in the House of Representatives, who were not delegates. The Senate, perhaps, might be called such. His election was nearer the mode of theirs, than that of this House.
Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) had no difficulty in declaring that the gentleman was fully qualified to take a seat in that House, by the terms of an express compact with the people. He was convinced that the Representatives have a right to admit those whom they regard as lawfully entitled to a seat in the House, for the purpose of debating. They may admit the Secretary of State, if they consider it as expedient. If this gentleman had applied to the Senate, that body also were authorized to admit him, if they thought it lawful. Under the old constitution, he would have been a member sui generis. He does not claim a right of voting, but of speaking only; and when the affairs of the South-western Territory were agitated in the Senate, he had a right, in his (Mr. S.'s) judgment, to speak and debate in that House also. Mr. S. wished that there had been previously settled another part of this business, viz: by whom the delegate was to be paid for his attendance. It may be a future question, also, whether he is to be dismissed when the galleries are cleared?
Mr. Giles was not prepared to speak on the subject. On the score of expediency, his present opinion was, that the delegate from the south-west of the Ohio should be admitted. He had no objection to the motion of the member from Maryland, (Mr. Murray,) for the committee rising, but he would never consent to it for the sake of consulting the Senate. He would agree to it, for the sake of further deliberation among themselves. If the House chose to consult the gallery—a resource for information that he should never wish to see adopted—they had a right to consult it, or to ask advice from any other quarter, notwithstanding the assertion of the gentleman from Connecticut.
Mr. Dexter said, he thought the obstacle should be got over by a formal act of the Legislature. He was clear that the House had a right to consult or admit to the privilege of debating, any individual whom they thought proper. They might, for instance, admit an advocate to plead; in a particular case; but that was entirely a different matter from allowing him to give a vote on the question before the House. Mr. D. declared that he would vote against the report, as it now stands, not because he thought the gentleman from the South-western Territory unentitled to a seat, but because he regarded an act of the whole Legislature as a requisite for his introduction.
It was now moved that the committee should rise, and report the resolution of the select committee.
Mr. W. Smith differed from Mr. Dexter. He thought the House of Representatives was, in itself, perfectly competent to settle the point. He was determined that they ought not to consult the Senate upon the matter. It would be extremely improper to let the Senate interfere. He again adverted to his former position, that the House may, if it sees proper, introduce the Secretary of State to a privilege of being consulted, or any other person who may be thought suitable. But he would never submit to yield the privileges of the House to the Executive. They ought to decide their elections on their own authority, and on no occasion send to inquire of the Senate if such an amendment ought to be admitted. Mr. S. considered the gentleman (Mr. White) as expressly within the present constitution. He trusted that the committee would not rise, under any such idea as consulting the Senate; but, if they at present rise, that it would be merely for the sake of obtaining further information.
Mr. Murray.—If we could have foreseen this case, I am sure that we should have had a joint committee of privileges from both Houses, as judges. The situation of the gentleman refers to both, and therefore the Senate ought to be consulted on this head. Perhaps he is entitled to a seat in both Houses.
Mr. McDowell objected, that an act of the Legislature would never, practically, answer the purpose. The session would be next to ending, before such a law would be passed. In the mean time, the interest of the people south-west of the Ohio is agitated in a question, and their delegate is condemned to silence. The members generally admit, in substance, that he ought to be received into this House. He wished, therefore, that they would take a vote on the resolution of the select committee. He would object altogether to the proposal of the member from Maryland, for an act of the Legislature, or any consultation with, the Senate. Mr. McD. was for admitting the member to his seat.
Mr. Boudinot observed, that it was universally agreed that the old law for accepting such a member as a delegate of Congress, cannot be executed in its full sense. The gentleman ought, in his opinion, to go where members elected by Legislatures went, that is to say, to the Senate. There was no pretence for his admission among the Representatives of the people. If he had any right, it must be in the other House. He thought this a very important question, and that it deserved more consideration than it had yet received. Mr. B. was not prepared to vote; but, if he was forced to give his voice at present, he should be for remitting the gentleman to the Senate. He thought that there should be an act of the whole Legislature. He should vote for the committee rising.
Mr. Dayton said, that he should vote against the motion of the Maryland member, for the rising of the committee. He was against the object of this motion. He agreed entirely with the report of the select committee for receiving the south-western member immediately, as he had a right to a seat, founded on an original compact, which gave it to him. He objected to any concurrence of the Senate being asked. As to consulting persons out of doors, the House had a right to call Heads of Departments to give their opinions on any particular subject, if they thought proper. Mr. D. mentioned some cases of this nature, where such an expedient had been used.
Mr. Giles mentioned one reason against the committee rising, which was, that the House had no other business before it. He then read an amendment to the resolution of the select committee, as a middle course, that would embrace the ideas of all parties.
Mr. Dexter repeated some of his former reasons for preferring an act of the Legislature.
The question was called for, and put by the Chairman, Shall the committee now rise, and report progress? It was decided in the negative—yeas 38, nays 39.
The question was then put on the resolution, as given by the committee. Mr. Giles again proposed his amendment. This was, that after the word "debating," in the resolution, there should be added, "upon any question touching the rights and interests of people in the territory of the United States south-west of the Ohio." The object was to narrow the power of the delegate.
Mr. Smilie was for his being admitted to deliberate on every subject, or none at all.
Mr. Giles declared that he was very well pleased with the resolution, as it originally stood. He had only suggested this amendment that he might get the resolution through the House. He therefore withdrew his motion.
Mr. Baldwin did not see that the question was of much importance. When a member was permitted to speak, but forbidden to vote, his situation was, no doubt, infinitely higher than that of strangers in the gallery, that of an advocate allowed to plead at the bar of the House, or that of a printer who came only to take notes; but still it was extremely short of the situation of a member of Congress. This would be more especially the case, if his right of debating was restricted to the affairs of the North-west and South-west Territory. Mr. B. could see nothing in the new constitution that made an exclusion of the delegate from the south-west of the Ohio. This privilege had been solemnly promised to those people, upon three different occasions. When they belonged to the State of South Carolina, they sent a Representative, Mr. Sevier, to Congress; and they separated into a new State, under the promise of this privilege. But now, we have made a discovery, that these laws cannot be put into execution. It is a great pity that we had not made this discovery sooner. Mr. B. rejected all idea of referring this matter to the Senate. When the latter had any question of that kind, that concerned themselves, they would, no doubt, judge for themselves, and that just as properly as the House of Representatives. As to the pay of this gentleman, that might be an after question. He was clear that there at present existed no law which could make out that. The House may hereafter, if they see fit, pass a law respecting it. But, in the mean time, Mr. B. was satisfied that these people had a claim for a delegate, which could not be got rid of by the House.
Mr. Swift thought that it would be better to erect these people into a new State, and then the privilege would be of some real use to them. He was still of opinion that the constitution admits of no such delegate as this person is intended to be. He is a new kind of character, unknown to it. This person is sui generis. If the constitution knows any thing about him, then take him; if not, reject him. As to taking advice from the gallery, Mr. S. seemed to think he had been misunderstood. To admit a person within the bar for the purpose of consulting him, was a quite different thing from permitting the gallery, like this person, to come and take a permanent seat among the members, for the purpose of regularly debating. Mr. S. never meant to debar the House from taking information wherever they could find it.
Mr. Murray was concerned that he found himself obliged to vote against the resolution of the Committee of the Whole. He still hoped that the gentleman would have a seat, but that the Senate would first be consulted.
Mr. Wingate moved an amendment to take the resolution, by adopting these words, "to a seat in Congress, as a delegate to Congress."
Mr. Madison said, that the resolution, as passed by the select committee, was so properly expressed, that he did not believe it could admit of any amendment or alteration whatever.
The Committee of the whole House then divided on the resolution, when there appeared a very large majority in favor of reporting it as it first stood, and consequently for admitting Mr. White as a delegate. The committee then rose.