Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Tuesday, November 18.

Another member, to wit, Theodore Sedgwick, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat in the House.

Delegate south of the Ohio.

The House proceeded to consider the report of the committee on the letter from James White, enclosing the credentials of his appointment as a Representative of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio; to which the Committee of the whole House reported no amendment. Whereupon, the said report being again read at the Clerk's table, was, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House, as follows:

"That, by the ordinance for the government of the territory of the United States north-west of the river Ohio, section nine, it is provided, "that, so soon as there shall be five thousand free male inhabitants of full age in the district, upon giving proof thereof to the Governor, they shall receive authority to elect Representatives to represent them in a General Assembly;" and by the 12th section of the Ordinance, "as soon as a Legislature shall be formed in the District, the Council and House, assembled in one room, shall have authority, by joint ballot, to elect a delegate to Congress, who shall have a seat in Congress, with a right of debating but not of voting, during this temporary government." Full effect is given to this Ordinance by act of Congress, August 7, 1789.

"That, by the Deed of Cession of the territory south of the river Ohio, to the United States, in the fourth article, it is also provided 'that the inhabitants of the said territory shall enjoy all the privileges, benefits, and advantages, set forth in the Ordinance of the late Congress for the government of the Western Territory; that is to say, Congress shall assume the government of the said territory, which they shall execute in a manner similar to that which they support in the territory west of the Ohio, and shall never bar or deprive them of any privilege which the people in the territory west of the Ohio enjoy.'

"The cession, on these conditions, was accepted by act of Congress, on the 2d of April, 1790.

"By an act passed the 26th of May, 1790, for the government of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio, it is enacted, 'that the inhabitants shall enjoy all the privileges, benefits, and advantages, set forth in the Ordinance of the late Congress for the government of the territory of the United States north-west of the river Ohio. And the government of the said territory south of the river Ohio, shall be similar to that which is now exercised in the territory north-west of the river Ohio; except so far as is otherwise provided in the conditions expressed in an act of Congress of the present session, entitled 'An act to accept a cession of the claim of the State of North Carolina to a certain district of Western Territory.' The committee are of opinion that James White has been duly elected as delegate from the territory of the United States south of the Ohio, on the terms of the foregoing acts; they therefore submit the following resolution:

"Resolved, that James White be admitted to a seat in this House as a delegate from the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio, with a right of debating but not of voting."

Mr. Madison said, that in new cases there often arose a difficulty by applying old names to new things. The proper definition of Mr. White is to be found in the laws and rules of the constitution. He is not a member of Congress, therefore, and so cannot be directed to take an oath, unless he chooses to do it voluntarily.

Mr. Murray moved that Mr. White should be required to take the oath.

Mr. W. Smith observed, that the constitution only required members and the Clerk to take the oath. The gentleman was not a member. It does not even appear for what number of years he is elected. In fact he is no more than an envoy to Congress. Instead of being called delegate to Congress, had he been plainly called an envoy, the difficulty would have vanished. He is not a Representative from, but an officer deputed by the people of the Western Territory. It is very improper to call on this gentleman to take such an oath, any more than any civil officer in the State of Pennsylvania. Mr. S. did not consider him as coming even within the Post Office law, (viz: for franking letters.) He is not entitled to pay, unless a law shall be passed for that end.

Mr. Giles agreed with the gentleman who spoke last as to the impropriety of demanding an oath.

Mr. Lyman was for it.

Mr. Dayton was against the oath. Call him what you will, a member, a delegate, or, if you please, a nondescript. It would be wrong to accept his oath, even if he should offer it. He is not a member. He cannot vote, which is the essential part. It is said that he can argue, and by that means influence the votes of the House. But so also a printer may be said to argue and influence, when he comes to this House, takes notes, and prints them in the newspapers.

Mr. Boudinot.—As the House had set out on a wrong principle, it was natural that, in their subsequent progress they should wander further and further from the point. But, as the House had now given their decision, he acquiesced in it. It was, however, a strange kind of thing to have a gentleman here arguing, who was not bound by an oath. He never could reconcile it.

Several other members spoke.

The House divided on the question, "Shall the delegate take an oath as a member?" Ayes 32, noes 42—majority against the motion, 10.

Ordered, That a committee be appointed to bring in a bill extending the privilege of franking to James White, the delegate from the South-western Territory, and making provision for his compensation; and that Mr. William Smith, Mr. Thatcher, and Mr. Macon, be the said committee.