Monday, November 24.
Answer to the President's Speech.[54]
Mr. Nicholas then rose in defence of Mr. Madison's amendment. He thought the House should not bow so much to the Executive as to approve of his proceedings without knowing what they are. Gentlemen say that they do not mean an implicit approbation. Why, then, hazard words that infer it? He would go as far in thanking the President as any person with propriety could go.
Mr. Sedgwick insisted that the amendment of the member from Connecticut (Mr. Hillhouse) was preferable to the other. The President has said that his policy in regard to foreign nations is founded on justice. We approve of that. He recites his motives. They are also approved. Where, then, is the danger of expressing a general approbation? Would it be proper to give an approbation that cannot be appropriate, and that has no definite meaning? Mr. S. was far from designing to approve, explicitly or implicitly, what the House were not acquainted with. He only intended to convey a general sentiment of approbation; and he saw nothing more than this in the amendment of the gentleman from Connecticut.
Mr. Hillhouse never designed indiscriminate approbation; nor had he any secret meaning couched under the words of his amendment. When he had any thing to say to the House, he came honestly and told them in plain words what he would be at. He meant to express his applause of pacific and equitable measures. As to the question so often referred to, (the embassy of Mr. Jay,) he solemnly declared that it never was in his mind to express any thing about it. It would come before another body.
Mr. Madison imagined that, in his motion as now worded, every person might see substantial approbation.
Mr. Ames.—Jealousy may become habitual as well as confidence. Nothing but a habit of jealousy could have found any thing of a secret in this verbal distinction of your policy instead of a policy. The distinction was trifling, but, if there must be one, he preferred the amendment of Mr. Hillhouse. His reasons for this preference were so minute that they, perhaps, had little more value than what his imagination chose to give them. In the mean time, nobody will suppose that we do not approve of the policy of the President in preferring pacific measures, because the system of peace is now preferred all over the Continent of America.
Mr. Dayton rose to make a reply to "remarks so illiberal."
Mr. Ames here rose again and said that the gentleman certainly could not mean him.
I mean that gentleman, Mr. Speaker, said Mr. Dayton, pointing to Mr. Ames. He has accused me of "habits of jealousy." To this charge Mr. D. rejoined with some warmth. He again declared that he never would pledge himself to approve of the mission of Mr. Jay, till he should learn what were that gentleman's instructions. He meant to draw this line of distinction, to give approbation of general principles, but not of particular measures. The former he considered as implied in the amendment of Mr. Madison, the latter in that of Mr. Hillhouse.
Mr. Vans Murray considered the dispute as resting on the words a policy and your policy. He would not give explicit approbation to particular measures, but he approved the general principles on which the President preferred a pacific system.
Mr. Giles.—It is admitted on all sides of the House, that we approve the general principles, but will not pledge ourselves to approve the particular means. It is best, then, to adopt the least equivocal words. Mr. G. allowed that there was but little difference, yet he should vote for the amendment of Mr. Madison as it stood.
Mr. Dexter, in opposition to the sentiments of the gentleman who had last sat down, would vote for "your policy," instead of "a policy." The latter made the sentence an abstract proposition. The words "your policy," made it a personal application. The omission of the word your tended to an implication of censure. If an abstract proposition was the whole meaning intended to be expressed, that meaning might as well be put into any other place as into an Address to the President. He did not see the use of it. Praise (said Mr. D.) is the only reward which a person receives in a Republican Government; or at least, it is the greatest reward; and if withheld where due, the effect must be pernicious. Here it would be of more particular impropriety to withhold praise, when all our constituents approve the pacific policy of the President. It would have been a matter of little consequence at first, whether "a policy" or "your policy" had been adopted, for every reader would have understood it as an approbation of the President. But now, after such a debate, if we scruple at the word your, all the world will conclude that we mean an implied censure.
Mr. Boudinot said that he adopted the word your as unequivocal. He had no meaning but what was open and candid. By adopting the amendment the House would make that language explicit, which was at present, at least in some degree, ambiguous.
Mr. Tracy pronounced an elegant panegyric on the character and conduct of the President of the United States, whom no man admired more sincerely than he did, though he could not speak thus from the honor of enjoying a personal acquaintance. He recommended to Mr. Madison rather to withdraw his motion of amendment altogether than bring it forward at such an expense of the good temper of the House. The present session had commenced with good auspices, and much cordiality, and he would be extremely sorry to disturb its tranquillity.
Mr. Madison said that he felt sensibly the force of the remarks made by the gentleman who was last up. In consequence of these remarks, he should be happy to withdraw his amendment. This was accordingly done.
It was then proposed that the Committee of the whole House should rise, and report the draft of the Address as originally given in by the special committee, with the additional amendment that had been proposed by Mr. Dayton, and adopted.
Mr. Fitzsimons then rose and said, that it would seem somewhat incongruous for the House to present an Address to the President which omitted all notice of so very important an article in his Speech as that referring to the self-created societies. Mr. F. then read an amendment, which gave rise to a very interesting debate. The amendment was in these words:
"As part of this subject, we cannot withhold our reprobation of the self-created societies, which have risen up in some parts of the Union, misrepresenting the conduct of the Government, and disturbing the operation of the laws, and which, by deceiving and inflaming the ignorant and the weak, may naturally be supposed to have stimulated and urged the insurrection."
These are "institutions, not strictly unlawful, yet not less fatal to good order and true liberty; and reprehensible in the degree that our system of government approaches to perfect political freedom."
Mr. Giles stated at large his sentiments as to this expression in the Speech of the President about self-created societies. The tone of that passage in the Speech had made a great deal of noise without doors, and it was likely to produce a considerable agitation within doors. [Here a motion was made for the rising of the committee.] Mr. G. did not wish to press himself upon the attention of the committee, but if they were disposed to hear him, he was prepared to proceed.
Mr. Sedgwick objected to the rising of the committee. The House had been often entertained and informed by the ingenuity of that gentleman, who was now prepared to address them.
Mr. W. Smith considered it as opposite to the practice of the House for a member to move that a committee should rise, at the very time when gentlemen had declared themselves ready to deliver their sentiments.
[It was repeatedly inquired from the Chair, by whom this motion was made. No answer was given and it seemed to be the unanimous wish of the House that Mr. Giles should proceed, which he did.] Mr. G. began by declaring that, when he saw, or thought he saw, the House of Representatives about to erect itself into an office of censorship, he could not sit silent. He did not rise with the hope of making proselytes, but he trusted that the fiat of no person in America should ever be taken for truth, implicitly, and without evidence.
Mr. Giles next entered into an encomium of some length on the public services and personal character of the President. He vindicated himself from any want of respect or esteem towards him. He then entered into an examination of the propriety of the expression employed by the President, with regard to self-created societies. Mr. G. said, that there was not an individual in America, who might not come under the charge of being a member of some one or other self-created society. Associations of this kind, religious, political, and philosophical, were to be found in every quarter of the Continent. The Baptists and Methodists, for example, might be termed self-created societies. The people called the Friends, were of the same kind. Every pulpit in the United States might be included in this vote of censure, since, from every one of them, upon occasion, instructions had been delivered, not only for the eternal welfare, but likewise for the temporal happiness of the people. There had been other societies in Pennsylvania for several purposes. The venerable Franklin had been at the head of one, entitled a society for political information. They had criminated the conduct of the Governor of this State and of the Governors of other States, yet they were not prosecuted or disturbed. There was, if he mistook not, once a society in this State, for the purpose of opposing or subverting the existing constitution. They also were unmolested. If the House are to censure the Democratic societies, they might do the same by the Cincinnati Society. It is out of the way of the Legislature to attempt checking or restraining public opinion. If the self-created societies act contrary to law, they are unprotected, and let the law pursue them. That a man is a member of one of these societies will not protect him from an accusation for treason, if the charge is well founded. If the charge is not well founded, if the societies, in their proceedings, keep within the verge of the law, Mr. G. would be glad to learn what was to be the sequel? If the House undertake to censure particular classes of men, who can tell where they will stop? Perhaps it may be advisable to commence moral philosophers, and compose a new system of ethics for the citizens of America. In that case, there would be many other subjects for censure, as well as the self-created societies. Land-jobbing, for example, has been in various instances brought to such a pass that it might be defined swindling on a broad scale. Paper money, also, would be a subject of very tolerable fertility for the censure of a moralist. Mr. G. proceeded to enumerate other particulars on this head, and again insisted on the sufficiency of the existing laws for the punishment of every existing abuse. He observed, that gentlemen were sent to this House, not for the purpose of passing indiscriminate votes of censure, but to legislate only. By adopting the amendment of Mr. Fitzsimons, the House would only produce recrimination on the part of the societies, and raise them into much more importance than they possibly could have acquired if they had not been distinguished by a vote of censure from that House. Gentlemen were interfering with a delicate right, and they would be much wiser to let the Democratic societies alone. Did the House imagine that their censure, like the wand of a magician, would lay a spell on these people? It would be quite the contrary, and the recrimination of the societies would develope the propriety of having meddled with them at all. One thing ought never to be forgotten, that if these people acted wrong, the law was open to punish them; and if they did not, they would care very little for a vote of that House. Why all this particular deviation from the common line of business to pass random votes of censure? The American mind was too enlightened to bear the interposition of this House, to assist either in their contemplations or conclusions on this subject. Members are not sent here to deal out applauses or censures in this way. Mr. G. rejected all aiming at a restraint on the opinions of private persons. As to the societies themselves, Mr. G. personally had nothing to do with them, nor was he acquainted with any of the persons concerned in their original organization.
Mr. Lyman hoped that the member from Pennsylvania would, upon reflection, withdraw his amendment. Mr. L. considered it to be as improper to pass a vote of censure, as it would be to pass a vote of approbation. He did not wish to give printers an opportunity of publishing debates that had better be suppressed. Besides, where will this business of censorship end? It would be much better not to meddle with the Democratic societies at all. Some of them were perfectly sensible that they had gone too far. He should, therefore, move that this committee do now rise, and that the Chairman report the Address as it now stands.
Mr. Thatcher hoped that his colleague would not insist on taking that question just now, before other gentlemen had an opportunity of delivering their sentiments.
Mr. Lyman, in reply, said that gentlemen were at liberty, in discussing his motion, to tell their minds as to the self-created societies.
Mr. Sedgwick requested that Mr. Lyman would take this motion out of the way. Mr. L. withdrew it.
Mr. W. Smith then rose, and entered at large into the subject. He said, that if the committee withheld an expression of their sentiments in regard to the societies pointed out by the President, their silence would be an avowed desertion of the Executive. He had no scruple to declare that the conduct of these people had tended to blow up the insurrection. Adverting to Mr. Giles, he thought the assertion of that gentleman too broad, when he spoke of not meddling with the opinions of other than political societies.
He considered the dissemination of improper sentiments as a suitable object for the public reprobation of that House. Suppose an agricultural society were to establish itself, and under that title to disseminate opinions subversive of good order; the difference of a name should not make Mr. S. think them exempted from becoming objects of justice. Would any man say that the sole object of self-created societies has been the publication of political doctrines? The whole of their proceedings has been a chain of censures on the conduct of Government. If we do not support the President, the silence of the House will be interpreted into an implied disapprobation of that part of his Speech. He will be left in a dilemma. It will be said that he has committed himself.
Mr. S. declared that he was a friend to the freedom of the press; but would any one compare a regular town-meeting where deliberations were cool and unruffled, to these societies, to the nocturnal meetings of individuals, after they have dined, where they shut their doors, pass votes in secret, and admit no members into their societies, but those of their own choosing? Mr. S., by way of illustration, observed, that this House had never done much business after dinner. In objection to this amendment it had been stated, that the self-created societies would acquire importance from a vote of censure passed on them. They were, for his part, welcome to the whole importance that such a vote could give them. He complained, in strong terms, of the calumnies and slanders which they had propagated against Government. Every gentleman who thought that these clubs had done mischief, was by this amendment called upon to avow his opinion. This was the whole. Mr. S. begged the House to take notice, and he repeated his words once or twice, that he did not mean to go into the constitution of these societies, or to say that they were illegal. The question before the House was not whether these societies were illegal or not, but whether they have been mischievous in their consequences.
Mr. McDowell was of opinion that the term self-created societies, was too indefinite. He professed the highest respect for the character of the President; but he did not think that the proposed vote of censure would be any eligible proof of it. The House of Representatives were assembled not to volunteer in passing votes of reprobation on societies, or individuals, but to legislate. He wished that gentlemen, instead of losing their time on such frivolous and inflammatory amendments, would proceed to the proper business of the House. The gentleman from South Carolina seemed to be well acquainted with Democratic societies. It was very true that they had published resolutions reprobating the assumption business, and the system of funding; but the rest of the people, as well as Democratic societies, had very generally censured the assumption and the funding transactions. He thought that some laws had been passed which answered no good purpose, nor indeed any purpose, but that of irritating the public. The present amendment he considered as destructive not only to the intercourse of domestic society, but that it involved a prospect of throwing restraint upon the conduct of gentlemen in the House of Representatives. With the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Giles,) he was satisfied that the amendment, if adopted, would have no weight whatever with the citizens of the United States; as they were too enlightened to accept of opinions from their Representatives.
Mr. Tracy had imagined that no man would have the hardihood to come forward in that House and vindicate these societies. He quoted from the remarks of Mr. McDowell, the words, "your wanton laws, begotten in darkness, first raised insurrection;" and likewise some other words about the enormous expense of millions for the Western expedition. Mr. T., after reading these expressions from a memorandum, which he held in his hand, declared his surprise, that a gentleman, whom he knew to possess the candor and good sense of the member from North Carolina, could suffer such language to escape him. He was certain that the gentleman, if he had not been somewhat in a hurry, never would have permitted those words to pass from his lips.
Quitting this topic, Mr. T. said, that he would, for his own part, be disposed to let these societies alone, and leave them to the chastisement of their own consciences. If they were to say, "Gentlemen, you, as tyrants, make laws, and slaves obey them," I would answer, said Mr. T., "It is very rash. Think again before you say this again. We believe that, from inadvertency, some things have escaped from Democratic societies, which they had not well weighed, and which had a bad effect on weak and ignorant people in the western counties of Pennsylvania. You have seen the bad effects of your temerity. Take care before you publish any such thing again." Mr. T. said, this is all the length which we mean to go, and can any body object to this? The Democratic societies form but a very small portion of the people of America. Where is the harm in saying that one-hundredth, or, I believe I might say, not more than one-thousandth part of the citizens of the United States have been mistaken, and that they have been imprudent in printing certain indiscreet resolutions? Mr. T. declared that if the President had not spoke of the matter, he should have been willing to let it alone, because whenever a subject of that kind was touched, there were certain gentlemen in that House who shook their backs, like a sore-backed horse, and cried out, The Liberties of the people! Mr. T. wished only that the House, if their opinion of these societies corresponded with that of the President, should declare that they had such an opinion. This was quite different from attempting to legislate on the subject. Has not the Legislature done so before? Is there any impropriety in paying this mark of respect to a man to whom all America owes such indelible obligations? He thought that this declaration from the House of Representatives would tend to discourage Democratic societies, by uniting all men of sense against them. Mr. T. said, that perhaps the member who spoke last might be connected with some of these societies, of which he entertained so favorable an impression.
Mr. McDowell said, that he wanted the House to avoid quarrels, and to mind their proper business of legislation. He declared that he was not a member of any such society. He did not know that he had ever been in the company of any person who was a member of any of them. He was even, he declared upon his honor, ignorant whether there were, or ever had been, any such societies in North Carolina. He adverted to the simile of the sore-backed horse, and said that he believed his back to have been rubbed harder in the last war, than that of the gentleman. He imagined that these societies had done both good and harm, and again declared, that he could not consent to a vote of indiscriminate reprobation.
Mr. Dayton was heartily for the amendment. He observed that he wanted no evidence to satisfy him, as to the gentleman not being a member of any of these societies. If he had been connected with them, he would have known their principles better than he seems to do. Mr. D. said that many persons in New Jersey, who had been the most violent against the excise law were equally so against the insurgents; and though their opinion of the law itself was unaltered, which they made no scruple of openly declaring, yet they did not, on that account, hesitate about marching against the insurgents. They did not suppose that one obnoxious statute was any reason for overturning the Federal Constitution. The murmurs against the excise law in New Jersey had been converted into universal silence, because no man would venture to express his discontent, at the hazard of being suspected of being a friend to the insurgents. That the Democratic societies had produced the most mischievous effects in the western counties there could be no question. Letters had been received from officers in the army, who were the most respectable characters, and who, from authentic information, had affirmed the fact. It had been stated that these people would recriminate upon the House, and it had even been hinted that their recriminations might affect the President. That man, said Mr. D., is above their censure. He believed that if their censures had any effect at all, it would be to do the President honor.
Mr. Nicholas.—When we see an attempt made in this House to reprobate whole societies, on account of the conduct of individuals, it may truly be suspected that some of the members of this House have sore backs. The President has been apprised of the absurdity of making this a Legislative business. Here Mr. N. read a passage from the President's Speech, to show, that the notice taken of self-created societies was not intended for a topic of discussion in that House. The passage was expressly addressed to every description of citizens:
"And when in the calm moments of reflection, they shall have retraced the origin and progress of the insurrection, let them determine, whether it has been fomented by combinations of men, who, careless of consequences," &c.
Was this an address to the two Houses? Did this passage show that the President wanted them to intermeddle? Were they called upon to give an opinion? Where could be the pretence for any thing of this sort? The House have made acts. The Democratic societies reprobate them, and then the House reprobate the Democratic societies. When you first cut a man's throat, and thereafter call him a rascal, do you suppose that your accusation will affect the man's reputation? The House, by passing this vote of censure, would make themselves a party, and lose a title to unsuspected confidence. Mr. N. declared, that, for his own part, he never had any concern with these societies, nor ever to his knowledge had spent an hour with any person who was a member of them. He rather, if any thing, despised them. He had always thought them the very worst advocates for the cause which they espoused; but he had come two hundred miles to legislate, and not to reprobate private societies. He was not paid by his constituents for doing business of that sort. The President knew the business of the House better than to call for any such votes of censure. It was wrong to condemn societies for particular acts. That there never should be a Democratical society in America, said Mr. N., I would give my most hearty consent; but I cannot agree to persecution for the sake of opinions. With respect either to the propriety or the power of suppressing them, Mr. N. was in both cases equally of opinion that it was much better to let them alone. They must stand or fall by the general sentiments of the people of America. Is it possible that these societies can exist, for any length of time, when they are of no real use to the country? No. But this amendment will make the people at large imagine that they are of consequence.
Mr. Dayton said, that these societies had produced the Western insurrection, and, therefore, the committee were just as well entitled to institute an inquiry in this case, as formerly regarding the failure of the expedition of General St. Clair.
The committee now rose, and reported progress, and had leave to sit again.