Saturday, February 28.
Indian Trading Houses.
It was moved that the House should resolve itself into a committee on the bill for establishing trading houses for the purpose of supplying the Indian nations within the territory of the United States. This was done accordingly, Mr. Sherburne in the chair.
Mr. Giles then moved to strike out the first section.
Mr. Goodhue wished to move that the committee rise; to which Mr. Giles agreed. Mr. Goodhue then said, that his reason for this motion was, the inattention of members to the business before them. To attempt going through the bill at present was a perfect farce. He was satisfied that the bill would never go through this session. He did not, for his own part, yet know whether it was proper or not.
Mr. Parker said, that the bill had been long enough before the House for the gentleman from Massachusetts to have made himself acquainted with its contents and its merits. He vindicated the principle of the bill, as tending to conciliate the affections of a distressed and unhappy people, and as it might likewise prevent the expenses of a war with them. France, Britain, and Spain, had adopted this policy, and found the good effects of it. He considered the bill as of the utmost consequence, and, thinking so, he should use his utmost influence to get it passed. The expense proposed was not great, as the affair was only experimental.
Mr. Montgomery was of the same opinion with the gentleman who spoke last. He thought that the Indians had common sense enough not to quit allies who supplied them with articles which they wanted, till we also made some effectual establishment of that kind. The member went on the same ground with the gentleman who spoke last.
Mr. Boudinot thought that the reason given by Mr. Goodhue for moving that the committee should rise, viz: that gentlemen would not attend to their duty, was the worst imaginable. What did the House meet for at all? It was the duty of the Chair to compel them to mind their business. Mr. B. then referred to something which had been said by Mr. Swift, who had been up just before Mr. Boudinot. Mr. B. in reply to this gentleman, said, that he would not wish to press the bill this session if members did not think it proper. He was willing, if agreeable, to refer the matter for one year to the President. But there never would nor could be a complete peace till something of this kind was done. The President himself had told us as much.
Mr. Giles said, that the bill could not be got through this session. He was willing to take the question either in the first way that he had moved it, or in any other. This was a most improper time of the session to bring it in.
Mr. Murray hoped that the committee would seriously attend to the first clause in the bill, and would not rise. He felt the shortness of the time, but he was willing to devote to-morrow (Sunday) to this subject, and he trusted that the importance of it would give the employment a solemnity not inconsistent with the day. Without a bill to establish a well-guarded intercourse with the Indians, the frontier policy will be unsystematic and despicable. To complete the system, it appeared to him that three great objects are to be embraced: 1st. Force to protect the frontier from Indian invasion—for this the Military Establishment is made. 2d. A regulation, by law, that shall restrain the frontier people from predatory invasion into the Indian country, carrying law and settlement hand in hand. 3d. The establishment of trading houses under the influence of the two first parts of the system, for the purpose of conciliating the Indians by supplying their wants, and detaching their habits of trade and their affections from a foreign nation. With these three points embraced in one system, he had no doubt but their co-operation would produce the great object, peace on the frontier. Without the last, the other parts of the system would be totally inefficient.
Mr. Hillhouse said, that the House ought to begin at the right end of the subject, by reversing the vote which the committee passed yesterday, authorizing the frontier people to pass the line in pursuit of the Indians as often as they pleased. If this was allowed, it would be impossible ever to keep peace.
On a division, shall the committee now rise? it was determined in the affirmative—yeas 35, nays 31.
The question was then put by the Speaker, Shall the committee have leave to sit again? It passed in the affirmative—yeas 34, nays 33.
But it was presently remarked, that some gentlemen had risen both in the yeas and nays; others had been without the bar. The question was, therefore, taken over again, and determined in the negative—yeas 36, nays 41. The bill is, therefore, thrown out.
Indian Lands in Georgia.
The House proceeded to consider the resolution and amendments thereto, reported yesterday from the Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee to whom was referred a motion of the 25th instant, respecting such persons as shall be assembled or embodied in arms on any lands belonging to Indians out of the ordinary jurisdiction of any State, or of the territory of the United States south of the river Ohio: Whereupon,
The first resolution being read, in the words following, to wit:
"Resolved, That all persons who, unauthorized by law, and with hostile intent, may be found in arms on any lands allotted or secured to the Indians by treaties between the United States and any Indian tribes, shall, on conviction thereof, forfeit a sum not exceeding —— dollars, and be imprisoned not exceeding —— months."
And the amendment thereto, reported by the Committee of the whole House, to add to the end thereof the words, "unless it shall be in immediate pursuit of Indians, who shall have recently committed hostilities."
When the question was about to be taken on it, Mr. Venable rose and pointed out the difference of opinion between two gentlemen who were both opposed to his amendment. One of them (Mr. Sedgwick) had maintained that, when individual Indians, unauthorized by the rest of their tribe, crossed the line and committed depredations, a settler was, by the law of nations, authorized to pursue them across the line and to retaliate, and that this was implied in the bill. Mr. Hillhouse had materially differed from him, and agreed with Mr. Venable, in supposing that the person so pursuing across the line was punishable by the resolution as it stood, without the amendment. He then reminded the House that this frontier line was, perhaps, fifteen hundred miles long. The Indians may come over any part of it, while the citizens of the United States are not to be allowed to cross it one mile in pursuit. Even a man in pursuit of savages who may have carried off his wife and children, may be stopped. The amendment he regarded as essential. Military officers may judge on the spot whether such persons whom they meet beyond the line, in pursuit of Indians, are within the sense of the act or not.
Mr. Ames denied that the resolution as it first stood took away the right of a man to pursue the Indians, in order to recover his wife and children. But the amendment of Mr. Venable went to legalize all those acts of violence and revenge, that, for a century past, have deluged the frontier with blood.
Mr. Lyman vindicated the inhabitants of the frontier. If the Indians are so unfortunate as to be the dupes of other nations, (viz: the Spaniards and British,) that is not our fault. The frontier people, from time to time, have done every thing in their power to keep them in peace.
Mr. Hillhouse opposed the amendment.
Mr. McDowell said, that weekly and daily murders were committed by the Creeks in the district of Mero and in the South-western Territory. Do the United States avenge these murders? No. Do they demand back the property carried off? No. Instead of any satisfaction to the people, their characters are abused on this floor. The frontier people know that their happiness consists in peace, and, therefore, cultivate it as much as they can. He took a general view of the subject, and explained the insignificance of the posts as at present held by the troops of the United States for any purpose of protection. He noticed the inveterate hatred of the Indians against the whites, and their innate thirst of blood.
Mr. Moore went on the same grounds.
Mr. Giles did not like the harsh style assumed by some gentlemen in speaking of the frontier settlers. A hundred years hence these people would preponderate over this part of the Continent. He represented an Atlantic part of the Union, but, at the same time, he would carefully avoid any thing that might offend the Western people. The first settlers in this country were, when they first landed, frontier settlers. For his own part, he believed that the war between the whites and the Indians would be eternal. He said, that, from some intelligence received this day, there was reason to believe that a war with the Creeks might soon be expected.
Mr. Wadsworth.—Gentlemen have a great disposition to husband our little time, and I need not mention their manner of doing it. He said that he was willing to grant protection to the frontiers, but not to give leave, as by the amendment proposed, for an eternal war. He thought it calculated to drive the gentlemen on each side of this question into such opposite extremes, that they would never meet again upon the subject. He was willing to grant any degree of protection, but nothing for conquest. He said that the ancestors of the people now in the Atlantic part of the country were once frontier people, and he believed them to have been neither worse nor better than the present settlers, who are in the same situation. We are told of murders and robberies committed by the Indians; but the accounts of some of the officers employed by Government vary a little from this, and give room to suspect that there may be some error on both sides. He did not believe that this amendment would pass; but, if it should do so, it would widen the difference of opinion in the House.
Mr. Page was for the amendment.
Mr. Carnes could not conceive the reason why all regulations made in this House were for Indians only, as if the whites were constantly the aggressors. He asked if the Creeks performed a single tittle of the treaty of New York, about which there had been so much parade? No. The only design of Indians in making a peace is to get presents, for these they always get. As soon as these are spent they commit a new set of murders, in the hopes of another treaty. Thus they always have gone on, and always will go on, from murders to treaties, and from treaties to murders. Mr. C. complained that a gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Murray) had some days ago called the frontier people semi-savages. He hoped that such an expression would never again be used in that House. As to the treaty of New York, he might be told that the Creeks restored a number of women and children. He knew that; but he also knew that, before they did so, the relations of those people were obliged to put their hands in their pockets and pay large sums for their redemption, as the prisoners would not have been delivered up in consequence of the treaty of New York. This bill, without the amendment of Mr. Venable, would be an encouragement to the savages to come over the line and murder with impunity.
Mr. Scott was entirely in favor of the amendment. If the resolution passes without the amendment houses will soon be smoking and blood running. He believed that the subject in question was beyond the reach of human wisdom to regulate. He thought that striking out the amendment would only encourage the Indians to come in a body across the line. This they were never afraid of doing. The only thing which they feared was a pursuit, and this was to be effectually prevented by striking out the amendment. Was there ever such a thing heard of before as that, when the savages have carried off a man's wife and children, he must not be at liberty to pursue them? It would be the most frightful thing imaginable for the House to pass a law declaring such a pursuit criminal. Mr. S. could figure a case where the farm of a settler might come close to the Indian line, and the Indian might stand on the other side of the line and shoot him, and his neighbors would not be at liberty to pursue the murderer. Mr. S. said, that in that part of the country where he resided (Washington county) nothing of this kind was to be feared, as the line was at a sufficient distance from the cultivated lands, but there were other places on the frontier of the United States where this might happen. He said that no Christian nation had a right to ask better terms than this amendment offered to the savages. Stay upon your own side of the line and you are safe, but, if you cross over to us, we shall cross over in pursuit of you. This was fair play. If the resolution passed without the amendment, Mr. S. said that the Indians would immediately encamp close on their side of the line, and lie in watch there for whole months together, till they found a safe opportunity of crossing.
Mr. Murray said, he would make a remark or two on the criticism of the gentleman from Georgia, who had felt affected by an expression of his a few days since, when he called some of the people of the frontier "semi-savages." He did so, and he felt the expression not inapplicable. He confined the import of this expression exclusively to those upon the frontier who lead an unstationary life—who press forward into the deeper wilderness, by the new waves of advancing population, and live the life of savages without their virtues. He begged leave to call the gentleman's attention to a declaration of his own, last session, to justify this expression, which he used more to designate a peculiar than a general character of the people in the region to which he applied it. The gentleman said, he did not value the lives of one hundred Indians as much as the life of one white man, or words to that extent. [This was in a debate just before the close of the last session. The words of Mr. Carnes were, "I would not give the life of one white man for that of fifty Indians.">[ Mr. Murray said, he had two points always in his view when the frontier was a subject in that House—protection to the frontier against the hostility of the Indians, and restraint upon the whites to prevent the occasions of war against the savages. He had given every testimony to the first by supporting every measure for their defence; that he represented a district perfectly beyond the danger of the Indians, was proof that he was actuated in his votes for appropriation and force by no other motive than that which belonged to every man there who supported the great principle of Government, that the whole must protect the parts. He wished to see such a system established, combining these two points, as would give complete protection against the Indians, and yet restrain the whites from violating peace. He wished to see the day when the arms of the Government might, without a crime, strike a whole tribe, if that tribe or its members waged war on the frontiers. But, to do this, it was necessary to place our relative situation so as that justice might be secured. He wished to adopt a regulation like the present, to prevent our fellow-citizens from the gratification of private revenge, the source from whence so much blood is shed. In order to justify exemplary punishment on Indian tribes, you must first be in a situation to restrain the whites from doing injustice to them. You must do what all nations have done, when, from the general or local state of civilization, private war disturbs public tranquillity—you must restrain the right of private war, by placing the power of vengeance out of the reach of individuals, and in the hands of Government. Nor did this idea go at all to restrain that inalienable right of resistance against imminent danger, which was sanctioned by the law of nature. The picture drawn by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. Scott,) with his accustomed ability and force, was certainly an interesting one—were an encampment of Indians to be heard in the woods near a settlement, after any evidence of hostility, he did not doubt but the neighbors would be perfectly justifiable in changing the scene of blood from the cottage to the camp—if the amendment which actually arms all the passions of revenge with the rights of law, be rejected, you will attain one of the great objects of frontier policy—the ability to restrain the right of private war, from which public war arises as a consequence. The Government will, when this ability to restrain is complete, become responsible for the protection of the whites against the savages. Until that is accomplished, he did not believe Government could, either in justice or policy, expend treasure or use force, when uncertain of the justice of the cause. He therefore hoped that the amendment would be rejected.
Mr. Findlay was for the amendment, and mentioned several examples to prove the cruelty and perfidy of the Indians.
The amendment itself was in these words: "Unless it shall be in immediate pursuit of the Indians who have recently committed hostilities."
Mr. Madison did not think the question explicit; he therefore proposed another, which was to prevent the pursuers from coming within a certain number of miles of an Indian town. He was extremely doubtful whether his amendment or any other would effectually answer the end proposed. He was convinced that no law of any kind would be able to hinder people from crossing the line in pursuit of Indians, who might have carried off their families.
Mr. Harper said, that however little time the House had to spare, and however long the discussion might have been, he could not help trespassing on their patience for a short time to deliver his sentiments, as he thought himself tolerably acquainted with the subject. He expressly denied that the Indians ever committed any murder without previous provocation. The process is shortly this: An Indian crosses the line and steals a horse. And as long as Indians exist they will always steal horses. The man to whom the horse belonged collects as many of his neighbors as he thinks sufficient, pursues the Indian, and, not contented with recovering his horse, he kills the thief. The Indians, who have no such sacred ideas of property, immediately come over the line, and in revenge murder a number of innocent people. Indian murders are not unprovoked. They are not of that stamp. Mr. H. considered the amendment of Mr. Venable as a source of endless confusion. Any man, if it passed, might cross the Indian line as often as he thought proper, and say that he was in pursuit of Indians with prisoners. I undertake, (said he,) if you will give me a hundred dollars, to go to the frontier and get a witness who will come into a Court of Justice and swear that on such a day ten Indians came over the line in arms. Mr. H. said he was personally acquainted with the frontiers. He had a high respect for the inhabitants, there were many very worthy people among them; but likewise many others of a very different kind. This amendment will set open a door to all sorts of fraud and mischief. Mr. H. honored the sentiments of patriotism that gave rise to it, but he could not possibly agree to the propriety of its insertion.
Mr. White, the member from the South-western Territory, said, that he had to complain of the slaughter of near four hundred citizens under the auspices of your Government. He felt himself much affected, and as to the doctrine of Indian killing, only in retaliation, he denied it altogether. The love of blood was hereditary in them. When the gentleman says that with a hundred dollars in his pocket, he can find ten men on the frontiers—[Mr. Harper explained, that he only said he could find a witness.] Well, (said Mr. W.) if the gentleman did not mean a reflection on the frontiers, he meant nothing at all. I know not how well the gentleman may be practised in the arts of subornation, but I myself know of no such man. [Mr. Harper.—I expected the gentleman would confine himself to a decent answer.] Mr. W. proceeded to observe that no man acquainted with the frontiers would have made any such assertion as the gentleman had done. He was likewise extremely surprised at the gentleman from Maryland, for having persisted in affirming that many of the frontier people were semi-savages.
The yeas and nays were now taken on the amendment, which was lost by a majority of 7—yeas 39, nays 46, as follows:
Yeas.—James Armstrong, Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, Thomas Blount, Thomas P. Carnes, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, William J. Dawson, George Dent, Samuel Dexter, Gabriel Duvall, Benjamin Edwards, William Findlay, Christopher Greenup, William B. Grove, George Hancock, Carter B. Harrison, John Heath, William Irvine, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Nathaniel Macon, Joseph Mcdowell, Alexander Mebane, William Montgomery, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, Joseph Neville, Anthony New, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Thomas Scott, John Smilie, Thomas Sprigg, Thos. Tredwell, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Francis Walker, Richard Winn, and Joseph Winston.
Nays.—Fisher Ames, John Beatty, Elias Boudinot, Shearjashub Bourne, Benjamin Bourne, Lambert Cadwalader, David Cobb, Peleg Coffin, Joshua Coit, Henry Dearborn, Thomas Fitzsimons, Dwight Foster, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Benjamin Goodhue, James Gordon, Robert Goodloe Harper, James Hillhouse, William Hindman, Samuel Holten, John Hunter, Aaron Kitchell, John Wilkes Kittera, Amasa Learned, James Madison, Francis Malbone, William Vans Murray, Nathaniel Niles, Andrew Pickens, Theodore Sedgwick, John S. Sherburne, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, Wm. Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Uriah Tracy, Jonathan Trumbull, John E. Van Allen, Peter Van Gaasbeck, Peleg Wadsworth, Jeremiah Wadsworth, John Watts, Benjamin Williams, and Paine Wingate.
Mr. Giles, who had been in the House during the whole debate, had gone out just before the question was put, and returning immediately after the names had been called, asked leave to vote. The rule of the House was read by the Speaker, which is that no member shall vote who was not present at putting of the question. Mr. G., on this account, was not allowed a vote.
Mr. Carnes then moved to amend the said resolution by adding to the end thereof the following words:
"Unless it shall be in continuation of a pursuit to a distance not exceeding —— miles beyond the line of the particular Indians who shall have recently committed murder, or may be carrying off captives or plunder."
It was resolved in the affirmative.
The said resolution, as amended, was then again read, and agreed to by the House, as follows:
Resolved, That all persons who, unauthorized by law, and with hostile intent, may be found in arms on any lands allotted or secured to the Indians by treaties between the United States and any Indian tribes, shall, on conviction thereof, forfeit a sum not exceeding —— dollars, and be imprisoned not exceeding —— months, unless it shall be in continuation of a pursuit to a distance not exceeding —— miles beyond the line of the particular Indians who shall have recently committed murder, or may be carrying off captives or plunder.
The second resolution being again read, and amended, was, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House, as follows:
Resolved, That it shall be lawful for the military force of the United States to apprehend every person or persons found in arms as aforesaid, and him or them to convey to the civil authority of the United States, within some one of the States, who shall, by such authority, be secured to be tried in manner and form as is provided in and by the act entitled, "An act to regulate trade and intercourse with the Indian tribes:" Provided, that no person shall be confined after his arrest, and before his removal, more than —— days.
Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in pursuant to the said resolutions, and that Mr. Sedgwick, Mr. Madison, and Mr. Hillhouse, do prepare, and bring in the same.