Tuesday, November 13.
Two other members, to wit: Robert Barnwell and Daniel Huger, from South Carolina, appeared, and took their seats in the House.
Defeat of General St. Clair.
On a motion made and seconded, that the House do come to the following resolution:
"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of War be notified that this House intend, on Wednesday next, to take into consideration the Report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the late expedition under General St. Clair, to the end that they may attend the House, and furnish such information as may be conducive to the due investigation of the matters stated in the said report:"
Mr. Williamson moved to strike out the latter part of the resolution, which respected the attendance of the Secretaries on the House. This motion, if carried, leaves the resolution a simple proposition to inform those officers that the House were, on Wednesday, to take the report on the failure of General St. Clair's expedition into consideration.
Mr. Venable objected generally to the resolution, as inconsistent with the dignity of the House. He doubted the propriety of the measure altogether. The gentlemen are not impeached, and therefore the House has no right to cite them to make their appearance; and, with respect to information, the House can command such from the Heads of Departments as they may see proper to require. He was at a loss in attempting to investigate the object of the resolution. He could see no purpose that it would answer, which could not as well be obtained without it.
Mr. White offered several objections to the resolution, of a similar import with the above.
Mr. Dayton supported the motion by a few remarks, stating the importance of that information which those gentlemen alone could give. He adverted to the report of the committee, which he observed had exculpated the commanding General on that expedition, whereas he was of opinion that the failure was owing to the misconduct of that gentleman.
Mr. Tucker objected to the resolution. He preferred the mode of requiring that information which the House might think necessary, in writing.
Mr. Madison objected to the motion on constitutional grounds, and as being contrary to the practice of the House. He had not, he said, thoroughly revolved the matter in his own mind, and therefore was not prepared to state fully the effects which would result from the adoption of the resolution; but he would hazard thus much, that it would form an innovation in the mode of conducting the business of this House, and introduce a precedent which would lead to perplexing and embarrassing consequences; as it involved a conclusion, in respect to the principles of the Government, which at an earlier day would have been revolted from. He was decidedly in favor of written information.
Mr. Clark was opposed to the resolution; as a member of the committee who made the report, he had no apprehension; with respect to information, the report and the vouchers are before the House; and such further inquiry may be made of the proper officers as the House may think necessary.
Mr. Ames supported the resolution. He noticed the impressions which the failure of the late expedition had made on the public mind. Characters had suffered in the general estimation. It was of the utmost importance that a thorough investigation should take place, that if the failure of the expedition was a mere casualty, and the fortune of war, it might be made to appear; or if it was owing to misconduct, the blame might fall on the proper subjects. The mode suggested to obtain information appeared to him the best that could be adopted—the most adequate to the object. It was due to justice, to truth, and to the national honor, to take effectual measures to investigate the business thoroughly. This inquiry appears to be the beginning of an arrangement preparatory to an impeachment; on whom this will fall, he should not presume to say; but still it places the subject in an important point of view, and shows in the strongest manner the necessity of adopting the best possible mode of ascertaining the real state of facts. This, he conceived, could not be done so effectually as by the mode proposed in the resolution.
Mr. Giles objected to the resolution. He preferred a thorough discussion of the report, in the first place, and a comparison of the vouchers with the report; and if, in the issue, it should appear necessary to call for information from these officers, it could then be done; but, in the present state of the business, to adopt the resolution would place the committee in a very disagreeable situation.
Mr. Laurance observed that the committee, in their report, say that, for want of time, they had not been able to complete it; it is, then, apparent from the report itself that it is immature. He stated several particulars in the report which were incomplete, and from hence inferred that there was material information to be received previous to being able to form a competent judgment on the matter. He observed that, as the information must be had, he saw no necessity of postponing the attendance of those officers in the first instance.
Mr. Madison, in reply to Mr. Ames's remark, that the best possible mode ought to be adopted, observed, that there seemed to be different ideas entertained by the different advocates of the resolution; one seemed to implicate the officers alluded to as parties concerned; another appeared to consider them merely as witnesses. For his part, he thought there was no other way of proceeding, but that of adopting one or the other of these alternatives: either to take up the report and discuss its merits, or for the House to begin the inquiry themselves, de novo.
Mr. Livermore objected to the resolution. He could not see any advantage which would result from adopting it. He thought the causes of the failure of the expedition were sufficiently obvious, without criminating any body. He adverted to these causes—they were, the rawness of the troops, and the superiority of the Indians as marksmen. On these points he could not see what information could be derived from the Secretary of the Treasury. He thought that the Legislature had gone too far already, and that no satisfaction would result from further proceedings, but that the subject would appear more and more involved.
Mr. Boudinot, after stating sundry particulars relative to the state of the public mind at the time of the report, adverted to several parts of it which appear to criminate particular persons, some of whom were absent at the time of the investigation on which the report is founded. He therefore urged the necessity of receiving from the Heads of the Departments that information which was requisite to throw light on several parts of the report, and that this ought to be done previous to taking the report into consideration.
Mr. Fitzsimons said he should vote against the resolution. He did not think this the proper time to call for the information alluded to; nor the mode proposed a proper one. Some remarks have been made on the report, though it is not before the House; to these he should not particularly reply, but would only observe, that no person had applied to the House for redress of any supposed injury received by the report. It has been said that the inquiry ought to have been a military one; but it was well known that it was impossible to institute such an inquiry by reason of the want of officers. He then gave a sketch of the mode of proceeding adopted by the committee in conducting the inquiry, to show that they had availed themselves of every means of information within their power.
Mr. Williamson said he had moved to strike out the latter part of the resolution, but he was equally opposed to the whole of it; and since he had heard the remarks of several gentlemen, on both sides of the House, he was clearly of opinion that the best way was to dispose of it altogether, and let the subject proceed in the course which it had already taken.
Mr. Giles observed, that he thought there was less delicacy observed on this occasion, in respect to the committee, than was usual in this House. With respect to the report, the vouchers on which every assertion is founded are before the House. As to the incompleteness of the report, it is an immaterial object; the few blanks it contains are occasioned by the want of time to examine the voluminous papers necessary to be examined, in order to ascertain some of the facts—facts not in themselves of the first importance. He observed, that he had not the smallest objection to the fullest investigation of the subject; he was in favor of all the information that could be possibly obtained; he objected not only to the mode now contended for, which he thought not only liable to all the objections which had been made, but to many others which might be offered.
Mr. Dayton observed that he was one of those who were not satisfied with the report; he did not think the conclusion which exculpated the commanding officer could be supported by the report itself. He adverted to several facts stated in it, which showed that the commander must have been highly culpable; he instanced the slowness of his movements, the dilatoriness in constructing forts, and his being surprised by the enemy. He thought that the remarks which had fallen from gentlemen, on what he had said, were illiberal, as they had virtually impeached his candor, when he was not conscious of deviating from its dictates. It was not his intention to have touched on the merits of the report, but he had been impelled to do it from the turn the debate had taken.
Mr. Gerry was in favor of the resolution. He enlarged on the magnitude of the object of investigation, and insisted that it was the indispensable duty of the House thoroughly to probe the subject to the bottom, that if any persons have been to blame they may suffer, or if the event which has taken place, by which the national character has suffered, and so severe and unproductive an expense has been incurred, amounting probably to one million dollars, has been owing to circumstances which could not be avoided or controlled, the public may receive satisfaction as to the whole matter.
Mr. Page objected to the resolution, particularly to the precedent it would establish; but, at the same time, he was in favor of the fullest inquiry the subject was susceptible of. He said, the mode proposed would operate to clog the freedom of inquiry, and the freedom of debate.
Mr. Ames, adverting to the spirit of the report, pointed out the peculiar situation of the two Secretaries, and that they did not stand on the same ground with other persons who are not so intimately implicated in the matter. He alluded to the various objections which had been urged from precedent, from the fulness of the investigation which the subject had undergone in the hands of the committee, and from the remark by Mr. Livermore, that sufficient had already been done. To this last objection he particularly replied, by saying that the public wanted further satisfaction, and that the House could not justify themselves to their constituents without a stricter and fuller investigation, that the whole of the facts might be laid before them.
Mr. Madison said, the mode now proposed involved a dereliction of the only practicable mode of transacting public business; and that, however imperfect that mode might be, still he believed that it was the only one that had received the sanction of experience and utility. He therefore hoped that the resolution would be rejected, and the mode already adopted persevered in, and the necessary information called for in writing, from every person in anywise interested or competent to give it.
Mr. W. Smith supported the resolution. He showed by the report itself, and from the reasoning used by gentlemen in opposition to the resolution, that the two Secretaries were implicated in the causes of the failure of the expedition; from hence, he inferred the justice and propriety of giving them an opportunity of exculpating themselves.
Mr. Gerry expressed surprise at the apprehension which some gentlemen appear to entertain of the measure of introducing the Heads of Departments into the House; for his part he had no such apprehensions. The Secretary will attend at the orders of the House merely to give such information as may be required, and not as members or ministers to influence and govern the determinations of the House.
Mr. Venable objected further to the resolution; he urged the impropriety of any of the Heads of Departments coming forward, and attempting in any way to influence the deliberations of the Legislature.
Mr. Laurance replied to Mr. Venable; he observed that the gentleman appeared to mistake the object of the resolution; it was not contemplated that either of the Secretaries should appear on the floor of the House to influence, in any degree, its decisions; they are to be called on merely for information.
Mr. Murray objected to the resolution. The report, he observed, is made to the House; if in the course of its discussion any further light or information should be deemed necessary, it may then be called for, and in that mode which shall appear most eligible; at present the question appears to be premature. Mr. Murray added several other remarks, and then the question being put, Mr. Williamson's motion for striking out was carried.
And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the said resolution as amended, it passed in the negative.
Resolved, That the Committee of the whole House, to whom is referred the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, be empowered to send for persons, papers, and records, for their information.