Wednesday, November 14.
Another member, to wit, William Barry Grove, from North Carolina, appeared and took his seat in the House.
The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Secretary of War, together with a memorial of Samuel Hodgdon, late Quartermaster General to the Army, respectively praying that they may be heard, and permitted to give information and explanations as to the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair; which were read. The letter of the Secretary of War is as follows:
War Department, November 14, 1792.
Sir: After the close of the last session of Congress, I saw with much concern the report to the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition, under Major General St. Clair, of the 8th of May, 1792; which, having been presented to the House in the last moments of the session, was ordered to be printed, and has since circulated in the public newspapers throughout the United States, containing suggestions, most of them founded upon ex parte investigation, which have been understood in a sense very injurious to my reputation.
Learning that the present day was appointed for taking into consideration the above-mentioned report, I have waited with anxious expectation for some act of the House enabling me to attend the progress of the examination upon which they are about to enter, for the purpose of furnishing such information and explanations as might conduce to a right understanding of facts, in which I am so materially implicated. The failure of a proposition, which I am informed was made to the House with that view, has added to my solicitude and regret.
Thus situated, I feel myself called upon to ask of the justice of the House that some mode may be devised, by which it will be put into my power to be present during the course of the intended inquiry, as well to hear the evidence on which the several allegations contained in the report are founded, as to offer the information and explanations to which I have alluded.
To this step I am impelled by a persuasion that an accurate and satisfactory investigation cannot otherwise be had with equal advantage, if at all. And my entire reliance upon the equity and impartiality of the House, will not permit a doubt to exist on my part that such an investigation will be exclusively the object of their desire and pursuit.
I have the honor to be, sir, with the highest respect, your most obedient humble servant,
H. KNOX.
The Speaker of the honorable the House of Representatives of the U. S.
Defeat of General St. Clair.
And then the order of the day, that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House on the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, being taken up—
Mr. Madison suggested that the most simple, most practicable and consistent plan would be, to recommit the report of the select committee, and refer the present applications[44] to the committee to whom the report shall be recommitted. He therefore moved that the Committee of the Whole should be discharged from considering the reports on the causes of the failure of the late expedition.
Mr. Smith (S. C.) observed that several objections struck him in opposition to this motion. The House must at some period, said he, meet this case; if it is recommitted, there will be an impropriety in referring it to the same committee; if a new committee is appointed, they must begin the whole subject de novo; and, if their investigation should take up such a length of time as that of the former committee, the session will be expended, and at the close of it the business will recur on the House, and the same discussion will occur again that is now proposed. He hoped the House would therefore proceed in the consideration of the report, assign two or three days in the week for the purpose, and continue the investigation till the whole is finished.
Mr. Giles replied, that he had no doubt that the vouchers on which the committee had founded the report would appear sufficient to justify the decisions that they had made. He said that he did not suppose that the applicants would adduce any new information; one of them had been called on, he attended the committee, and he supposed that he had furnished all the information he was in possession of. He objected to a recommitment; as one of the committee, he was perfectly satisfied with the report; nor did he conceive there was any additional evidence to be produced, except it was of a recent date.
Mr. Ames said, he perceived such a disinclination to go into the subject as indicated a proper temper of mind in relation to the persons supposed to be in any ways interested in the ultimate decision of the House. He was opposed to a recommitment, as it would procrastinate instead of expediting the inquiry. He adverted to the report. Facts are stated; the public have been left to draw the inferences; the committee have not explicitly criminated any body; but they have determined, in several instances, who is not to blame. What is the situation of those who are implicated in the causes of the failure? Every citizen knows that, in consequence of the issue of the expedition, clamors against the War Department, in respect to Indian affairs, have rung through the Continent. Should public officers, who have been placed in situations of such importance, be silent, and submit calmly to such imputations, they would be unworthy of public confidence, unworthy to breathe the vital air. They now apply for an opportunity to be heard in their own vindication. Shall they be sent to a committee-room, and make their defence against the allegations brought forward to their disadvantage, which have been published to the world, in the hearing of perhaps ten or a dozen persons only? He hoped not—he thought justice to them and to the public required that they should be allowed to make their defence in the face of the world. Will not precluding them look like a wish to smother all further inquiry into the matter?
Mr. Baldwin was in favor of recommitting; he said it was the most eligible mode, and was consonant to the practice of the House.
Mr. Madison remarked that it had been said a disposition was discovered to smother inquiry. In reply he observed that, if he wished to prevent a thorough investigation, he should be in favor of the whole subject being undertaken by the House; because, he observed, that if a select committee of a few members took seven weeks to form an incomplete report, it must appear evident that so large a body as this House could never get through the matter. He further observed, that the same reason existed for referring the residue of the evidence to a select committee as induced the measure in the first instance.
Mr. Fitzsimons said he was at first in favor of a recommitment, but on further consideration he was convinced the House would be able to get through the subject in a shorter time than a select committee. He added several other reasons which induced him to be in favor of the House proceeding with the report.
Mr. Gerry said it appeared to him that the only question seemed to be, whether the House or the select committee shall establish the facts. If these facts are established by the committee, would it give equal satisfaction as if they were established by the House? He conceived it would not; but, should the result be a conviction on the part of the House that some of the officers are culpable, will the House rest an impeachment on the report of the committee? He conceived the House ought to found their decisions on facts ascertained by themselves. It has been said there is no difference between the House and the committee. If this is the case, does it not imply a censure by the House on certain characters? He thought it did. It therefore becomes the House to discuss the report, that it may be determined on what footing it stands. If, in the case of a contested election, the House revolted from the idea of submitting their judgment to facts substantiated by a committee, the case before us is of unspeakably greater magnitude. For these, and several other reasons, he hoped the report would not be recommitted.
Mr. Williamson was in favor of the motion for recommitting; he supported his opinion by the uniform practice of the House, which in every case where new evidence was adduced, always provided that the new evidence should be examined by the same committee, who had originally brought in the report. He said if this mode was departed from, we should find no committee would bring forward a state of facts in future. He thought it was not treating the committee with proper candor to decide on their report in its present situation.
Mr. Sylvester observed, that the resolution of the House at the close of the last session, that they would take up the subject early in the present session, precluded a recommitment; he was therefore opposed to the motion.
Mr. Boudinot was in favor of a recommitment; he said, if there is new evidence to be brought, the House ought to wait till that is received and reported at the Clerk's table; and this he conceived ought to be done in the usual way, by a select committee; till the whole testimony is completed it appeared to him the House was not prepared to take one step in the matter.
Mr. Madison replied to Mr. Gerry's allusion to the ease of the contested election. He inquired of him whether the House itself went into an investigation of facts in the first instance? He believed he would not say they did. With respect to the memorials, he inquired, whether, if they had been presented at the time of the investigation of the subject by the select committee, they would not have been referred to the committee? If they would then have been referred, the same reason exists for referring them to a select committee at the present time.
Mr. Laurance was of opinion that a recommitment would tend to a saving of time; the committee will not be obliged to go over the same ground again that has already been explored; all they will be obliged to do is, to investigate the new testimony which will be adduced. He hoped, therefore, that the motion would prevail.
Mr. Giles said, that the proceedings of the committee were public, and that the Secretaries could have attended all the time, had they seen proper. They attended but once, and then appeared extremely anxious to get away to attend to their offices. The committee would have been extremely glad to have had those gentlemen present oftener, and to receive all the information they could give, and supposed they had done it.
Mr. Gerry replied to Mr. Madison. He said, if gentlemen would recur to the proceedings of the House on the contested election, they will find that the House expressly reserved to itself the right of substantiating the facts, which should appear from an examination of the depositions, taken in conformity to the resolutions of the House; and here he adverted to the mode pointed out by the House in taking those depositions. The adverse party was to be summoned to attend to the taking them; but in this report it appears that ex parte evidence has been admitted as the foundation on which some of the decisions have been made.
Mr. Murray supported the motion for a recommitment. He observed that the matter, in its present state, was so incomplete that he could not see how the House could proceed upon it. One part of the evidence only is finished, and the report is made on that evidence. Now, we are told new testimony is offered; let the whole be brought into view at once, and then the House will be in a situation to judge.
Mr. Page was in favor of a further commitment of the subject; but whether to the committee who made the report, or to a new committee, he should not take upon him to say. With respect to the admission of any head of a department to the bar of this House, except in case of an impeachment, he would never consent to it. It would be a precedent of a most dangerous nature, tending to a destruction of all freedom of inquiry by committees.
Mr. Findlay observed, that the committee wished that Mr. Hodgdon should have been present, but he did not make his appearance; the committee therefore proceeded on the testimony they had, and as there is now new evidence brought forward, he thought it was proper that the report should be recommitted. As one of the committee, he should have no objections to such alterations as might appear proper on further and more complete investigation of the matter.
Mr. Steele called for the reading of a clause in the memorial of the Secretary of War, which states that the committee had drawn conclusions from ex parte evidence. This being read, Mr. Steele remarked on the want of candor towards the committee, which had been shown by some of the members in the course of their observations. He then adverted to the above clause respecting ex parte evidence, and observed that, with respect to the Secretary of War, it was not true that the committee had proceeded on ex parte evidence; that officer, said he, was notified of the meetings of the committee; he attended those meetings; he furnished the committee with papers and documents, &c.; and further, he was requested to detain officers in town whose testimony was necessary in the matter, and that he complained of some of those officers being detained by the delays of the committee from the recruiting service. With respect to Mr. Hodgdon the same cannot be said, as he was not then in the country.
Mr. Steele then concluded by some additional remarks on the indelicacy manifested by some gentlemen in their treatment of the committee, and observed that he did not apply it to himself personally, but as it respected the committee at large, he thought proper to express the contempt which he conceived it merited.
Mr. Dayton replied to Mr. Steele. He repeated the substance of his original remarks on the report, and added, that in the course of the discussion he should attempt to show that the deductions made in several parts of the report were false. Mr. D. added, that whatever the gentleman last speaking might say, as one of the committee who signed the report, he was certainly implicated in whatever censure it merited.
The question for a recommitment was then agreed to, 30 to 22. And it was accordingly
Resolved, That the Committee of the whole House, to whom was committed the report of the committee appointed to inquire into the causes of the failure of the expedition under Major General St. Clair, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the said report, together with the documents relating thereto, including the letter of the Secretary of War, and the memorial of Samuel Hodgdon, be recommitted to Mr. Fitzsimons, Mr. Giles, Mr. Steele, Mr. Clark, and Mr. Findlay.