Friday, June 1.
Intercourse with France.
The bill for suspending the commercial intercourse between the United States and the French Republic, was read the third time; and, after the blanks were filled,
Mr. Gallatin inquired, whether there was not a mistake in the third section of the bill in that part which related to foreigners. The bill, as it stands, would affect vessels belonging to foreigners residing here. He proposed a change in the phraseology.
Mr. Sewall had no objection to the alteration, and he supposed it might be made by general consent, without recommitting the bill.
Consent was granted, and the alteration made.
The following question was then put, "Shall this bill pass?"
Mr. McDowell could not reconcile it to himself to give a silent vote on the passage of this important bill. He had heard no reason assigned for the introduction of this bill, either when the original proposition was before the House, or since; and, therefore, though the bill might pass by a large majority, he should give his vote against it. It had been said, by the gentleman from Massachusetts, that this bill was intended to secure the property of the citizens of the United States from capture. How was this to be done? This bill will not lay an embargo, and, therefore, cannot prevent our vessels from falling into the hands of the French, or any other nation, who chooses to attack them. If gentlemen wished to effect their object, they ought to propose a general embargo; but when he found gentlemen indisposed to this, he could scarcely believe them serious in their wishes to prevent the property of our citizens from being taken. By this bill our merchants are prohibited from trading to any of the ports of France or her dependencies. This he neither thought politic or just. He thought there was no cause for going this length at present. It would be seen by the estimate on the table, the great amount of exports sent to those countries, and this bill would not only destroy the trade to France and her dependencies, but affect also all our other trade. Gentlemen better acquainted with commerce than he pretended to be, would be able to ascertain the effects of this regulation with more precision than he could do; but it appeared to him that this regulation would put the whole of our exports within the power of Great Britain. He hoped, therefore, gentlemen would consider the inconveniences which would be produced by this measure, and not suffer their passions, which are so highly irritated against France, to lead our citizens into serious difficulties, for the sake of doing her some injury. There could be no doubt, that the moment France received the information of the passage of this bill, all negotiation would be put an end to, and they will lay their hands on all the property belonging to citizens of this country, which they can meet with. He was of opinion that the prudence of merchants alone would be sufficient to regulate the business, without Legislative interference. Mr. McD. hoped, therefore, the bill would be passed, and called the yeas and nays upon it.
Mr. Sewall said, it was very true, as the gentleman from North Carolina observed, that no general reasons had been given in favor of this bill; and he did not know that any opportunity had occurred in which they could with propriety have been given. Certainly if a measure meets with general approbation, and passes without argument and without discussion, it must have been carried for the best reasons. Reasons, said he, are not strengthened by debate; general consent indicates the strongest reasons in favor of a measure that can be assigned.
The gentleman from North Carolina has supposed that the only arguments in favor of this bill was, that it would be the means of protecting the commerce of our citizens; that argument, he agreed, was forcible, but he confessed he relied upon this measure very much affecting our enemy. It occurred to the committee that this measure might very much distress the French West Indies, which are the harbor of a nest of pirates, which continually assail our commerce. It is true, he said, that our commerce is also annoyed in the European seas, but in a much greater degree from vessels fitted out from the West Indies; the privateers from these islands depredate our commerce upon our coast, and if no measures are taken to prevent it, they might soon be expected on our shores. Any measure, therefore, which can be taken, consistent with our political situation, ought to be taken to prevent this mischief. This would not be carrying on hostility, but would withdraw from our enemies the means of supporting their hostility. Gentlemen have objected to this bill because they conceive it will not have this effect; he was, on the contrary, in favor of it, because he believed it would have the effect.
Mr. S. considered our trade with France as at present annihilated, as well as that with Spain and Holland, in a great degree; and France must hereafter, if this bill passes into a law, carry on her trade with this country by means of vessels belonging to the Hanse Towns, Sweden, or Denmark; and having reduced France to the necessity of changing her measures with regard to the neutral powers of Europe, she might, perhaps, be induced to change her conduct with respect to the United States, or perhaps with respect to all the neutral powers. He thought this measure recommended by these political considerations. Whether it would produce all the effect which had been mentioned, he could not tell, but it was well calculated to produce it. And the only objection to the measure appeared to be, that it would produce commercial disadvantages to our merchants; but since the adoption of the decree of the French Directory, which directs that all neutral vessels, with British produce or manufactures on board, shall be confiscated as good prizes, and which goes to the destruction of nearly all our trade, this objection would have but little weight, as a trade thus carried on would stand but a very small chance of producing any profit. Some merchants, indeed, are of opinion that our trade to France and her dependencies has for a long time past been attended with loss instead of profit. It was evident, he said, that the decree to which he had alluded had already had the effect in this country to lower the price of our produce, as many vessels employed in that trade are now employed in a different manner.
Mr. Gallatin must confess, without pretending to be a very good judge of the subject, that this measure appeared to him at least of a doubtful nature. The object of it is said to be to distress France and the French West Indies as much as possible. How far this could be effected, or whether the attempt to distress our enemy might not distress ourselves more than the enemy, he was not able to ascertain with precision. With respect to France herself, he did not see that it could have any effect. As to the West Indies, Guadaloupe, which he supposed was the place principally aimed at, was so situated with respect to neutral islands that she could always procure supplies of provisions from them. The only place, then, which would be affected by this regulation would be St. Domingo, and there he believed it might have some effect. If the intercourse between this country and that was stopped, it might be distressed for want of provisions; but in doing this he was persuaded we should also injure ourselves, by annihilating our commerce and sinking the price of our produce. With respect to our commerce, in six weeks or two months, all the trade which our merchants now carry on to French ports would be transferred to other neutral nations. The Danes and Swedes will come into our ports and carry our produce to the French islands; so that the only difference, after that time, will be that the carrying trade which we now have will be transferred to those powers. France will be supplied by way of Holland or Hamburg, and as the freight and other expenses attending the trade will of course be greater than if the commerce was carried on direct, it may be expected the price here will be low. It would be the same with respect to provisions. If the measure would be likely to distress France or her islands to any considerable degree, so as the better to bring her to terms of accommodation, he should not object to it. The inconveniences attending it must be encountered by our citizens; but seeing its effects on our enemy would be doubtful, and upon ourselves certain, he should vote against the bill.
Effectually to prevent provisions being carried to the West Indies, the exportation of them ought to be forbidden, both in our own vessels and in all others. Without this we cannot prevent our provisions from being exported by means of neutral vessels to French ports.
So far as related to his own constituents, Mr. G. said, they are not immediately concerned in this question, as they do not export their produce either to the West Indies or any port of Europe, but to New Orleans, by the Mississippi. He stated the matter as it struck him, and left other gentlemen to enlarge upon it.
Mr. Rutledge allowed that the bill was liable to the objection which had been urged by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, and which might be made against every measure which would be proposed for the defence of the country; it might be said of it that it will produce some inconvenience to our constituents, and bear hard upon the commercial and agricultural interests; but he believed no measure could be devised which would prove so injurious to France, and as little inconvenient to America, as suspending the commercial intercourse between the two countries.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania thinks the bill under consideration will prove fruitless, because the vessels of Sweden and Denmark may carry our produce to the French West Indies; this could not be contemplated as a probable event; in the convulsed state in which almost all the commercial States of Europe are, neutral bottoms will be in too great demand in Europe to permit of their seeking freights in America. If, however, they shall come here, and the Danes and Swedes become our carriers, we can then adopt the regulation suggested by the gentleman from Pennsylvania; we can then prohibit our intercourse with the French, even by means of neutrals; or as that may be impracticable, inasmuch as we shall not have any control over a neutral vessel after she leaves our ports, we can lay a general embargo.
Mr. R. thought gentlemen were greatly mistaken who imagined the present measure would lower the prices of our produce. He did not believe they would fall in consequence of the present bill or any which could be passed. He did not believe a declared war would lower the price of our grain. For some time past, an ex parte war has existed; the French have made war in every sea upon our commerce, which for months past has been bleeding at every pore. Government has not protected the trade of the country, but has, by preventing our vessels from arming, deprived our merchants of the use of the means their wealth afforded, of protecting themselves; thus insurance and seamen's wages have been higher, and the price of produce lower than they probably will be in a state of declared war. The grain of the State he had the honor of representing sells for less than it has done for twenty years past, or at any period of the last war; rice, which is the great staple of the country, and which, a few years ago, sold at six dollars the hundred weight, now sells but for a dollar and a half, and Indian corn, which article, the year before last, sold at a dollar a bushel, now sells for twenty-five cents only.
The gentleman from North Carolina has insisted, that because our trade to France and her dependencies, for the two last years, has been great, we ought not to stop it. He thinks that merchants understand their interests better than we do, and that if they, who are in the habit of calculating risks, think it proper to prosecute a trade with France, that we ought not to restrain them. Mr. R. allowed that our exports to France the year before the last had been great, but said that our returns had been small indeed; of the great number of valuable cargoes sent to St. Domingo, very few have been paid for. The proclamations of persons in authority in that island, and other deceptive contrivances, have allured much of our property to its ports, but, arriving there, it has been arbitrarily taken at a price fixed by the government, and payment made by bills upon France, which have not been paid, and are now lying protested at Paris, to the amount of many millions of dollars. So that our exports, which the gentleman says France has taken, have been literally taken, very little of it having been paid for. Upon such terms it was impossible to suppose this commerce would continue, and it is fallacious in the extreme to calculate, as a permanent trade, that which a peculiar state of things has occasioned with the French islands for some years past, and which we are now suffering for having engaged in.
Mr. R. said he was not apprehensive of giving umbrage to any honest merchant or fair trader, when he declared it as his opinion, that a trade with France would not and could not be carried on at present but by persons sinking under pecuniary embarrassments. Like gamblers upon the threshold of ruin, they adventure and put at hazard the remnants of their fortune to increase the chances of recovering what had been previously lost. The trade, he also believed, was in a great degree carried on for some time past by bankrupts, who, by means of bank facilities, and other credits fraudulently obtained, were enabled to speculate in a sea of danger and risk, into which they would not have gone if they had had any thing to lose. In such a state of things, it would be wise and expedient for Government to interfere, and say to the merchants who are willing to continue trading with France, although you may be disposed to continue this commerce, because it is carried on upon a borrowed capital, and because it is insured in Europe, yet we will put a stop to it, for we must take care of our sailors. When they are abused and imprisoned, and their captains publicly whipped in French ports, it is our duty to protect and preserve them from a continuance of such injuries. Mr. R. concluded with observing, that the present bill would occasion much distress to the French islands; would be the means of preserving many of our vessels and seamen, and answer other very valuable purposes. He hoped therefore it would pass.
Mr. Otis said, as neither of the gentlemen who had spoken on this subject had expressed an opinion which had a primary influence on his mind, he would beg leave to declare it in a few words. It was undoubtedly desirable, that this country should have a free commerce with all the world; but, under our present circumstances, with relation to France, no intercourse will be maintained with that country by the fair American merchant. He will not venture his property either to France, or to any of her dependencies. None but merchants who may have exclusive privileges in the ports of France, will now carry on this trade. He had no doubt that Citizen Hedouville, and other agents of the Directory, would give exclusive privileges to a certain description of dealers at the expense of the fair trader. Protections of this kind had been given, he believed, to favorite traders in every considerable port in the United States; and were not the proposed regulations to be adopted, these persons would be growing fat and rich, while the whole body of merchants would be suffering from the injustice and violence of the French. He did not think it would be prudent to leave room for encouragements of this kind to any of our citizens. For, while they are in the habit of receiving large favors from the agents of the French Government, they will be likely to feel a stronger attachment to the interests of that country than of their own; and a stronger temptation could not be offered to them than a monopoly of the French trade.
Mr. O. inquired whether, in a state of war, it was not usual and proper for all nations to restrain their subjects from a direct trade with their enemies? And are we not in war? Have we not passed a variety of bills which gentlemen have declared amount to war? This very morning, a bill has been passed, which, according to their construction, reaches the climax of war measures. If, then, we are now in a state of war, it will be inexpedient to continue to carry on this traffic. But, it is said, if we restrain our own citizens, it will be carried on by neutral nations. To a certain degree, it might be supposed that this would be the case; but this is one of the losses incident to a state of war. We must expect that a part of our carrying trade will be transferred to neutrals for a time; but though this will affect the mercantile part of the community, it will not wound the agricultural interest so deeply as a total suspension of commerce. If neutral vessels come hither for produce, the price will not fall so low as it otherwise would do, and the farmers will be the better able to bear the burdens which a war must necessarily lay upon them.
Mr. W. C. Claiborne said, it was his intention to vote in favor of the passage of this bill for two reasons. The first was, we have many vessels and much property afloat on the ocean, which we cannot adequately defend, and which is now constantly depredated upon. This measure will keep many of our vessels at home. The second was, that it would tend to increase our revenue, which at this time is a very desirable thing; for he was of opinion, that the neutral powers of Europe would become the carriers of our produce to the West Indies. Denmark, Sweden, and the Dutch all possess islands in the West Indies in the neighborhood of the French Islands, and if they come and fetch away our produce, the duty on tonnage will be increased; and the duties arising from imposts will not be lessened, as they will doubtless bring with them the produce of Europe when they come out to this country.
The question on the passage of the bill was then taken, and stood—yeas 55, nays 25.