Thursday, January 24.
Death of Mr. Tazewell.
A message was received from the Senate, informing the House that Henry Tazewell, Esq., one of their body, died this morning, and that they had directed orders to be taken respecting his funeral.
Afterwards, on motion of Mr. Dent, the House came to the following resolution:
Resolved, That this House will attend the funeral of Henry Tazewell, Esq., late a member of the Senate of the United States, on to-morrow, at half past four o'clock.[42]
Intercourse with France.
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill further to suspend the commercial intercourse between the United States and France, and the dependencies thereof, and for other purposes.
Mr. Spaight's amendment being under consideration,
Mr. Hartley said the general policy of this bill had been considered at the last session; and he had no doubt, that when any parts of the French dominions cease to depredate upon our commerce, we might, with propriety, open our intercourse with them. If, for instance, the Isle of France had fitted out privateers, and depredated upon our commerce, and chose to forbear to do so in future, and leave our passage to the Indian seas clear, it would be a good reason for opening our commerce with that place. The case of St. Domingo is still stronger, and has, as has been shown, the power of doing as much mischief, should we refuse to furnish them with the necessary supplies. If they call in their privateers, therefore, it would certainly be right to open our intercourse with that valuable island, especially since they appear to be abandoned by France, who has withdrawn all her troops from the island.
After some other observations, Mr. H. concluded with hoping the amendment would not be agreed to, as it would only tend to embarrass the bill, by making it necessary to ascertain the legality of the governing authority of the places with which we might open our intercourse.
Mr. Brace was opposed to this amendment, as it came round to the same point with that which the gentleman from Pennsylvania had proposed. It struck him that, in the course of the debate, gentlemen have forgot the ground on which we stand. Our treaties with the French Government have been declared void, on account of the conduct of that Government. We have proceeded further, and suspended all commercial intercourse with France and her dependencies. It would be well to consider what kind of connection now exists between the United States and France, and whether a measure of the kind proposed can injure our present prospect of peace. By the arguments of some gentlemen it would seem that we are under some obligation or contract to that Government; whereas, we ought to consider ourselves, with respect to it, in no other light than we consider ourselves with respect to the governments of the world with which we have no connection. We have, therefore, no object to pursue, but what, in a dignified national view, it is our duty and our interest to pursue.
This separation having been effected by the wrong acts of the French Government, she can have no claim upon us; we have taken our stand upon such ground as can always be justified, whenever a spirit of justice shall return. There is no man, said Mr. B., in the House, who does not wish for peace, whenever it can be obtained on a solid foundation. But it was well observed yesterday by his colleague, (Mr. Goodrich,) that this question is wholly a commercial one. This declaration gave offence to the gentleman from Pennsylvania. He was surprised that any one could suppose this to be the case. Mr. B. said he was equally surprised at the arguments of that gentleman. What connection had we with the French Government? or what connection had we with, any other, besides commercial? He had heard much clamor out of doors about other connections—about treaties offensive and defensive. He hoped no such connexion ever would exist between this country and any nation whatever.
Mr. Spaight said, he wished to have given the reasons which induced him to make this amendment yesterday, but a motion being made for the committee to rise, prevented him. Having been a member of the committee who formed this bill, and having given his consent to it, he trusted it would not be believed that he brought forward this motion to defeat the bill; his object was to make it more palatable to many gentlemen, who, if an amendment something like the present was not adopted, would vote against the bill. The gentlemen from Massachusetts and Connecticut have said, that if this amendment is adopted, it will destroy some of the most important principles of the bill. He believed they had mistaken the effect of the amendment. They state that it will be necessary for the President to inquire whether the commander of any island with which he was about to open our intercourse, had his authority from the French Government? On the contrary, it appeared to Mr. S. that, so long as the citizens of any island acknowledged France as the mother country, whatever authority may exist there, the place must be under the Government of France. If an open rebellion took place, it would alter the case entirely. And if conquered by any of the belligerent powers, it would not then come under the bill; so that, in either case, the amendment could have no bad effect. The principal motive with him for moving the amendment was, in order to take away the objection made to it by many gentlemen, that the bill is calculated to produce the independence of St. Domingo; for he himself had no such view, nor did he think any other member of the committee, who reported the bill, had. He believed, if the wants of these people are supplied from this country, it will be better that they should remain under the Government of France; but, if we refuse to supply them with provisions, they may act as freebooters, or do still worse—throw themselves into the hands of Great Britain, in order to procure supplies. These reasons had induced him to make the amendment, and he should be glad to see it adopted.
Mr. Champlin could see no difference between this and the former amendment, which had been negatived. The design of this section is, to authorize the President to open the intercourse with any of the islands and the United States, whenever he shall deem it consistent with the honor and dignity of this country, without inquiring whether such place is under the French Government. Frequent decrees are passed in France, said Mr. C., for revoking the commissions of these officers, which are not enforced; and yet, if this amendment is passed, such a person could not be treated with, and it would always be difficult to ascertain whether an officer acted under the French Government or not. If the islands choose to cease from their depredations, he would openly trade with them; for the intercourse was originally suspended, not with a view of starving the islands, but to prevent depredations being committed upon our commerce. He was astonished to find that nothing could come before this House, but gentlemen are ready to object to it on account of the effect it may have on France. For his part, if the measure be beneficial to this country, he cared not what effect it might have upon France. It was said this provision would have a tendency to provoke insurrection, or the independence of the island; on the contrary, he believed, if this law does not pass, they will throw themselves into the hands of Great Britain, or become plunderers of our property. He hoped to see the intercourse opened, not only with St. Domingo, but with the Isle of France.
Mr. Harper said, when this amendment was first made, he considered it as making no considerable change in the section, and was, therefore, inclined to vote for it; but the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Varnum,) of whose discernment he had a very high opinion, having said that he considered it as making a very considerable change in the section, and declaring that he would, on that account, vote for it, he was induced to take a further view of it, and he found, upon reconsideration, that it would, indeed, make a very material change in the section, and because he found this would be the case, he must vote against it.
Mr. Gallatin said, it appeared to him that this amendment goes no further than to prevent any stipulations with persons who have usurped the power of a country. It was yesterday stated by the gentleman from Massachusetts, and repeated to-day by the gentleman from North Carolina, that it did not extend to cases where men's commissions are doubtful. If a man has once held a commission as an agent in any French colony, he may be recognized as their agent, so long as he has not been publicly declared to be otherwise. His exercising the power will be sufficient proof that he has it; and, unless this principle is admitted, it must be evident that the bill is intended to operate in favor of revolters.
There is a great difference, said Mr. G., between this amendment and the one which had been moved by the gentleman from Virginia, the gentleman from New York, or that which he had himself moved. It was the opinion of the gentleman from Virginia, and it was his also, that the President ought not to be authorized to open a trade with St. Domingo, unless the constituted authorities of France had disavowed their former aggressions, and refrained from them; they did not think it right to permit a trade with particular parts of the possessions of France, considering that the measure was originally taken to distress the French Government, and bring it to terms; but this section gives the power of opening a partial intercourse with St. Domingo, though the Government of France should not disavow any of her former illegal acts; and the present amendment only proposes to except cases of insurgency. Nor could he see what possible objection can be made to it, except that it will prevent a lure from being held out to promote the independence of St. Domingo; for in nothing else does the amendment differ from the bill as it now stands.
If we are to hold out this lure, said Mr. G., it must be because we have the right, and it is our interest to do it. When he asserted we have not the right to do it, he would remark upon the word "right." Gentlemen say we have a right to do this, because we are an independent nation. No doubt. But when he said we have not a right to do it, he meant that we could not do it without infracting the law of nations, or those rules which we have declared ought to govern every nation. And though the gentleman from Connecticut has said that there is no connection of a political nature between us and France, and therefore considers this as merely a commercial regulation, Mr. G. said, he has mistaken his meaning, by making use of the word "connection" instead of relation. We have no connection, either commercial or political, with France; but we stand, as a nation, in a political and commercial relation with France and other nations. There is no connection between us, but there is the same relation, both political and commercial, that there is between all other nations. And, said Mr. G., it is, doubtless, an infraction on the law of nations to offer any lure, or promote the independence of a colony. We certainly have a right to give assistance, in case of a rebellion, by running the risk of becoming a party in the war, but not without infracting the law of nations; still less could we do it without breaking that morality in politics, the breach of which we have so often complained of. We may suppose the Government of France radically wrong, and the people exercising it corrupt, but neither would justify the overturning, or holding out any encouragement to others to overturn, the Government of any part of her dependencies. A conduct of this kind could only be justified in time of war.
In this country, in our speeches, at least, we have gone further, and said that, even in case of war, it would not be right to sow the seeds of insurrection; for, on what other grounds could we account for the philippics which have been pronounced on this floor against France, for her conduct not only against countries with whom she was at peace, but also against those with whom she was at war. This was the case with respect to all the charges made against France with respect to Holland, or the Milanese (now Cisalpine Republic) with whom she was at war when the attempts condemned were made. But we have said, war is at best an unfortunate state, and it is not right to heighten its evils by exciting insurrections and commotions. If this principle is right, and Mr. G. believed it correct in most cases, it is clear that we shall not be justified in promoting insurrections, even in war, much less in this state which is a state of hostility, but not of war.
Notwithstanding the respect which he paid to the opinion of the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Pinckney) he could not be persuaded that the independence of St. Domingo could be a desirable object. To-day, it had been avowed, in what fell from his colleague, (Mr. Hartley,) that this was the ground upon which the clause was founded, all the French force being withdrawn. He gave credit to the candor of his colleague for the declaration, and it was in this point of view which he had always considered it, because he had stated that, no doubt, an agent from that quarter had come with propositions to our government.
Mr. G. repeated some of his former reasons against the policy of promoting the independence of St. Domingo. He heard the gentleman from Rhode Island, with regret, repeat one of those illiberal ideas that had been so frequently introduced here, by saying that gentlemen seemed opposed to this measure, because it would be injurious to France.
Mr. Pinckney wished to make a single observation upon what fell from the gentleman from Pennsylvania. In order to defeat all that has been said about this section holding out a lure for the establishment of the independence of St. Domingo, it need only be said, that it is confined to the colonies which are under the jurisdiction of France. The language of this clause is, "so long as you continue dependent, we will treat with you."
Mr. Nicholas explained.
Mr. Sprague observed that the gentleman from Pennsylvania insisted upon it, that, without this amendment, this bill would hold out a lure to insurrections in St. Domingo, and that if gentlemen did not wish to encourage these, they must agree to the amendment. What is this encouragement? It is, "if you will forbear committing depredations, which we have heretofore experienced from you, we will open our trade with you." Then, according to the gentleman's reasoning, acts of hostility against the commerce of this country, are favorable to France; or rather, ceasing to commit them is an act of rebellion against the mother country; and, to hold out a lure on our part, to stop these depredations, is so contrary to the views of France, as to give a high offence to that country.
Mr. McDowell remarked, that gentlemen opposed to this amendment, all agree that the section, as it stands, holds out no lure to insurrection in the French West India islands; if not, why should they object to this amendment, which is only calculated to make certain what is at present doubtful to some members. He wished gentlemen to consider what might be the consequence of authorizing the President to treat with unauthorized persons. Gentlemen have stated, and he supposed truly, that the trade of this island of St. Domingo is a gold mine to the merchants of this country; and he was afraid that the richness of this trade had too much attraction to be resisted by those concerned in it, though it might be dearly purchased by the nation at large. He differed widely in opinion from the gentleman from South Carolina, with respect to the effect which the independence of that island would have upon this country; he believed it was by no means a desirable event to this country.
Mr. J. Williams did not intend to have said any thing on this subject, as it is principally a commercial concern, of which he knew but little; but he also conceived that the agricultural interest is connected with it. Gentlemen are afraid more is meant by this bill than meets the eye; they are afraid to take a worm or a fly, lest a hook should be concealed in them. Instead of war, he thought this bill calculated to promote peace. It is admitted, on all hands, said Mr. W., that Hispaniola cannot support itself. How must they, then, get support? Either we must supply them, or they must depend upon neutral islands, or the people must bend their whole force upon our commerce. What, said he, is most prudent to do? He thought the regulation proposed by this bill the best that could be hit upon. But the gentleman from Virginia said we are obliged to send our tobacco through Spain to France; is this, said he, an advantage to the people of this country? It may be presumed, Mr. W. said, that the President will go no further in this business than the interest of the country requires. This jealousy of the President has a bad effect; because from a want of confidence in this officer, he will be unable to do any thing for us. He hoped the amendment would not be agreed to.
It was negatived—49 to 41.