Thursday, March 29.
Relations with France.
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and the amendment to the first resolution moved by Mr. Sprigg, as to the inexpediency, under existing circumstances, of resorting to war against the French Republic, which amendment is, to strike out the words "French Republic," being under consideration,
Mr. Giles rose. It would be recollected, he said, that yesterday an attack had been made upon him, as indecent in its manner as it was in itself novel and unprecedented. He had been eight years in Congress, but he never before heard so direct and personal an attack. He was pleased, however, that it had been made, and only regretted that his state of health was such as, he feared, would not suffer him to go so fully into a refutation of the charges which had been brought against him as he could wish. He should, however, state such circumstances as would not only disprove the facts alleged against him, but also prove that the reverse of them was true. In doing which, he begged to be corrected if he should misstate any thing.
The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Harper) had said "that it had been the object of himself and his associates, but particularly of himself, since the year 1794, to go to war with Great Britain, if possible, and to enter into a treaty of alliance, offensive and defensive, with France." This charge he declared to be entirely void of truth. He knew that slanders of this kind had been circulated in an artful manner through the United States from that time to the present, but he never before heard the charge publicly made. Being made, he would refute it, though it had been the foundation of two long speeches of that gentleman; for, whenever slander assumes an erect front, it is dissipated by the first ray of truth which meets it.
He trusted he should prove, by a reference to the debate which had already been quoted, and to others, that he had never been in favor of a war with Great Britain; and as to an alliance, offensive and defensive, with France, he never heard such a proposition in private conversation, and it will be allowed that no such proposition was ever publicly made.
The inconsistency of his conduct had been spoken of. The gentleman from South Carolina said it was unaccountable to him how the author of such animated sentiments as were delivered by him, (Mr. G.,) in 1794, could now utter sentiments so grovelling and pitiful as those heard from him. He wished the gentleman had selected the passages to which he alluded, as he himself was unconscious of any difference between those which he then delivered and his present sentiments. From the year 1794 to the present period, he had uniformly declared it to be his opinion "that war is justifiable only in case of self-defence."
If boldness of assertion and dogmatism of expression would have availed, the gentleman from South Carolina must have been victorious; but he would beg to turn the attention of the committee to facts. That gentleman had first introduced the book of Mr. Monroe, the sentiments of which, he said, certain gentlemen, by their approbation of it, had adopted as their own. Mr. G. said he had read the book, and had found a great deal to commend in it, and little to condemn. Human nature was liable to err. If the gentleman himself were to review his own political history, he doubted whether it would be found to be always consistent. There might have been errors in Mr. Monroe's Ministry, but he believed they would be found to be as few as ever attended a negotiation which was encompassed with so many difficulties.
What, he asked, was the letter which the gentleman read from his book? It was a letter dated December 5, 1794. This was not a letter from Mr. Monroe to his associates, but to the Secretary of State; and, if any conspiracy was intended, General Washington and his Secretaries must have been the conspirators. He saw nothing more in this letter than a suggestion of what might be done if the Government thought proper. Mr. G. stated the situation of things at that time. In the autumn of 1794 the President laid before Congress a communication stating that nothing further could be done between this country and Great Britain by way of negotiation, and what remained to be done was left to Congress. There never was so threatening a state of affairs between Great Britain and this country, since the revolution, as at that period. At the time, therefore, when Mr. Monroe wrote the letter in question, he could not possibly know the state of affairs here, or whether they would come to an amicable settlement, and it was right in him, and it would have been criminal not to have done it, to state what it was likely might be done by France in our favor in case of extremities. He would only add one further remark, as he should have occasion to defend himself more than Mr. Monroe, which was, that he was at least as honorable a character as any of his calumniators; that while he was in France he effected much good, and that since he came away we had experienced much injury. If gentlemen would examine the state of things when he first went to France, what our situation was when he came away, and what it is now, he thought this would appear evident.
The gentleman from South Carolina, doubtless, after examining all the remarks he could find of his, had brought forward a debate which took place in 1794. To follow the gentleman would be a disagreeable task; but as it would serve to elucidate a truth which it was necessary to unfold, he should undertake it, and show that, instead of these remarks being in favor of war, they were founded in the most zealous wish for peace, Mr. G. proceeded to read his remarks on Mr. Dayton's motion for a sequestration of British debts, which, as the mover would recollect, he said, was a mere arrestation of British debts, which was proposed as a preventive of war, by holding in our hands what was within our power, as a pledge for the good behavior of that country, in order to preserve peace. Mr. G. stated the situation of things to be different from that which Mr. Harper had represented it to be, as the Legislature had no knowledge of any negotiation being set on foot with Great Britain at that time. This debate took place on the 28th of March, when they had been informed by the President that nothing further could be done by him, and the negotiation was not heard from until the 19th of April following. A part of the system proposed was an embargo, and another a suspension of intercourse with Great Britain. This bill passed this House, but was negatived in the Senate, by the casting vote of the Vice President who is now the President of the United States; and if this bill had been carried into a law, the other regulation for arresting the British debts would evidently have been a proper measure.
Mr. G. did not believe that we stood upon such unequivocal ground with respect to France as we formerly stood upon with respect to Great Britain. This had long been his opinion; and though we have heavy complaints to make against France, they were not without just complaints against us, arising principally from the operation of the British Treaty, that fatal instrument to the United States.
Mr. G. read some of the articles of the treaty, and his former remarks thereon, and denied that there was any well-founded apprehension of war at the time it was under discussion. He also noticed the assertion which had frequently been made, of the French Directory receiving lessons from this country, which, he said, was too absurd to be believed.
Though he thought France had just ground of complaint against this country, he did not mean to justify her conduct towards us. He thought she ought to have received our Ministers; and, if they had not agreed, to have taken such measures as they thought proper. But this is supposing our Ministers clothed with sufficient powers; if they were not, there would be some ground of justification for their conduct. The President of the United States is in the possession of information which would satisfy the Congress and the people in this respect, but he has thought proper to withhold it, and therefore he alone is responsible. There was one circumstance, he said, very unaccountable in this business. The President informed the House that he had received certain papers, and says, "I have considered these papers; I have deliberated upon them; I have not sent them to you, but require you to act upon them; I call upon you to take energetic measures, and request you will provide sufficient revenue." The House has been thus obliged to take up the subject in the dark. Is this, said he, a desirable state for the Legislature to be placed in? Is it not rather a degraded state? He thought it was; and when party rage shall subside, and it shall be seen that the Executive is pursuing hostile measures, and keeping back all information from Congress, this conduct would be deemed extraordinary. He was far from saying the Executive had not done what was proper. He could not say so, because he had seen no evidence upon which to form a judgment; but it left a strong impression on his mind that something was not correct, which was the reason the expected papers were not sent.
He also again referred to what the President says in his late Message with respect to the change of circumstances, which he still thinks he meant to apply to a change from neutrality in the country to something like war. And in these circumstances, said he, are the people of the United States to be led on from step to step, until they are irrevocably involved in war? And are the people to be told that this is a trifling question? When all the country is in commotion, and when the people are preparing their petitions for peace, (which he thought very proper,) he was not willing to proceed until the present question was decided.
He would suggest another idea. He had heard a variety of observations from different quarters, that at a period not very far distant from the present, a more intimate connection between this country and Great Britain than at present exists, is likely to take place. And yet gentlemen are perpetually crying, What! give up your independence! Do you prefer peace to independence? He would answer, No; for independence he should be ready at all times to make war. But are we, said he, called upon to fight for speculative independence, and, at the same time, willing to commit our real independence to the mercy of another nation? Where, he asked, is the difference between depending upon the French or British nation? Except, indeed, (as he believed was the speculative opinion of some gentlemen,) there was an intention of assimilating the British and American Governments.
Gentlemen talked of newspapers. He would say a word on that subject. There are two papers, said he, printed in this city, which not only breathe defensive, but offensive war of the worst kind. One of these papers, he believed, was particularly countenanced by the Government; the other was printed by an infamous scoundrel, a British subject—a paper which he was sorry to find too much countenanced. This paper not only breathes war, but exterminating war. And this paper issued from a British press, spreads its baneful sentiments throughout the country. He proclaimed this fact; and he should think himself a traitor to his country, not to proclaim it.
Mr. G. would say a few words as to the effect which the late French decree would be likely to produce upon this country. The committee had been told, by the gentleman from South Carolina, that it would effectually destroy our revenue. He believed he was mistaken in this. To France and to those nations who may be supposed to be under her influence, we last year exported to the amount of $36,000,000, and to Great Britain $8,000,000; two-thirds of which are re-exported to the countries above mentioned.
Against whom, then, are we to arm? Against those who receive $36,000,000, for the protection of the $8,000,000, two-thirds of which are re-exported. How, he asked, would this operate? Would the decree stop the importation of British goods? No, it might lessen them, but would not stop them, as the British would become, in some measure, their own carriers; and, as their vessels paid a higher duty in our ports than our own, it is probable our revenue would not be greatly lessened. It was possible, however, that there might be some abuse of the decree in carrying it into execution.
He was as much opposed to the decree of the Executive Directory as any man, but not so much on account of any loss we shall sustain from it, as from its being an attack upon our neutral rights, which he preferred to money. The British Treaty had authorized two acts that took place in January last, which will transfer the carrying trade from American to British vessels; but those acts will not affect our vessels going to France, Spain, or Holland. He supposed, therefore, that our commerce would not be very materially injured by the French Decree. He did not know but it would even be upon a better footing than at present, as there would be more security for it. At any rate, no rash measures ought to be taken, until we see how the decree is to be executed.
He trusted the gentleman from South Carolina was, by this time, pretty well satisfied as to the inaccuracy of his statement. Before gentlemen make charges of inconsistency against others, they should be sure that they themselves stand firm in that respect. That gentleman ought to have looked back upon his own conduct in 1792 and 1793. He had been informed that that gentleman was at that time a member of an affiliated society of Jacobins. [Mr. Harper said it was not true.] He believed, however, all the gentlemen who knew him at that time would do him the credit to say, that he was one of the most eloquent declaimers of that day in favor of the rights of man. But his inconsistency had even appeared within these two days. When the present proposition was first laid on the table, he rejoiced that there was a prospect of all uniting in manifesting a disposition for peace; but the next day he used arguments which went to the destruction of the resolution.
The gentleman from Massachusetts (Gen. Shepard) had made a remark which he must notice; it was, that he assumed to dictate to others what was proper to be done. Of this he was not justly chargeable. That gentleman told the committee he was a warrior; he venerated him as such—he was a warrior in a glorious cause; but whilst he venerated him as a soldier, he had to regret the political prejudices under which he labored, which could suffer him to attribute a motive of that kind to him. The gentleman from New York (Mr. Brooks) had also told the committee he had also been in service in the Revolution. This he did not know before he heard it from the gentleman himself. But he had since been told he was engaged in the honorable and humane employment of clothier to the army. [Mr. Brooks said, he had the honor of taking up arms in the defence of his country, which he carried until he was taken prisoner. He was a prisoner eighteen months, and when he was set at liberty he found his vacancy was not preserved for him. He then served his country in a different line, and he believed in a manner which entitled him to at least as much merit as he had assumed. He believed that providing the army with clothing was an essential part of the service; but, (said he, with great warmth,) if the gentleman doubts my being a soldier, I am here to answer him. A loud cry of order, and Mr. B. sat down.]
Mr. G. said, he had received this information from one of the gentleman's friends. He made the inquiry, because he did not know what services he had performed; and he assured him the information which he had received had tended to raise, rather than to sink him in his estimation; but he was not alarmed at being told he was a soldier.
It had been said of the resolution before the committee, that by stating we are not ready to resort to war against the French Republic, that it might be implied we are ready to go to war with some other nation. That this idea might be done away, if gentlemen will permit the words "against the French Republic" to remain. If the mover would give his consent, he should have no objection to add the words, "or any other nation."
Mr. Harper hoped, as he had been particularly alluded to by the gentleman who had just sat down, he should not be considered as trespassing on the patience of the committee in an unreasonable manner, if he made a few remarks in reply, though he did not mean to do it generally, as he perceived others had undertaken to do that, whom he was conscious were better able to do it than himself. He was called up merely by the gentleman's personal observations.
In the first place, he was charged with great indecency in bringing forward and commenting upon the gentleman's own speech. He left it to the committee to determine with what propriety this complaint came from a person who has omitted no opportunity of attributing the worst of motives, not only to gentlemen in that House, but to others out of it; neither age, character, nor absence, have preserved gentlemen from his censure; from a person who has always indulged himself in the most violent philippics against the Executive of the United States, and all who concurred in his measures; from a person who, when gentlemen declare they are for peace, says he does not believe them; from a person who has continually charged all those with inconsistency who differed in opinion from him, not by examining their conduct, but by making insinuations against them as to their debts, or to the way in which they may have acquired money, or by following them to their youth, before they became members of this House? He thought the gentleman ought to attend to the old, but just adage, "He who lives in a glass house ought not to be the first to throw stones." If there could be a man more regardless than that gentleman of all the rules of decorum in debate, he had never heard him.
As to the charge of inconsistency in his conduct, it had often been made in private, and as often contradicted; but as it is now brought into public view, he would say a few words on that point.
It was said, that in 1791 and 1792, he was a member of a Jacobin society, and a warm declaimer in favor of the rights of man. What was said respecting his being a member of a Jacobin society, is one of those falsehoods of party, which, though known to be unfounded, is still reported.
The fact, Mr. H. said, was this, which he never concealed: In the year 1791, there were instituted in Charleston a variety of clubs, (there were several before that time;) of many of these, being a young practitioner of the law, and desirous of extending his acquaintance; and procuring business, he was a member. Among these was a society called a Patriotic Society. It was composed of French and American citizens; and he and seven or eight other young practitioners became members, and attended one or two evenings; but, finding it composed of persons from whose society much improvement could not be expected, they never went afterwards; and so anti-jacobinic was their conduct considered, that they merited and received an expulsion from the society.
As to being a declaimer in favor of the rights of man in 1791 and 1792, he owned he partook of that enthusiasm which at that time raged in America, because he was deceived. He then believed the French had been unjustifiably attacked, but he now found that they were the first assailants. He then believed that the treaties of Pilnitz[30] and Pavia, of which they had heard so much, were realities; but he now found them contemptible forgeries. With respect to other parts of the French Revolution, he then believed that the principal actors in it were virtuous patriots, but he had since discovered that they were a set of worthless scoundrels and mad-headed enthusiasts, who, in endeavoring to reduce their fallacious schemes to practice, have introduced more calamities into the world, than ages of good government will be able to cure.
Mr. H. said, he never was a declaimer in favor of what gentlemen meant by the rights of man. He held them and their author in merited contempt. The pretended factitious rights of man to which gentlemen referred, were the rights of a few noisy demagogues over the rights of the people. Though he always believed this, he did not know it so well, in 1791 and 1792, as he knew it in 1794, and since. And, therefore, he was not a declaimer in favor of what the gentlemen mean by the rights of man, but he was a warm admirer of the French Revolution, when he thought the object was the establishment of the true rights of man; but, since he discovered that this was neither the object nor would it be the effect, instead of viewing that Revolution as a blessing to the world, which he once thought it, he now viewed it as the greatest curse that ever afflicted mankind; as a phial of wrath from Heaven, the bitterest that ever was poured out upon the earth.
There was a certain species of the rights of man of which he had always been the defender, in favor of which his voice would always be heard. He had, in a well-known instance, advocated the rights of his fellow-citizens in the best manner he was able, and in a manner which had obtained for him their thanks and their remembrance. How he conducted that defence, was well known to some of his colleagues in that House.
Mr. H. denied that he had been inconsistent with respect to the proposition before the committee. He then noticed what had fallen from Mr. Giles with respect to the decree of the French Directory not being so inimical to this country as it had been supposed to be. Mr. H. charged Mr. G. with being much mistaken in supposing that only the amount of eight millions of dollars was exported to Great Britain and her dominions, or that thirty-six millions of dollars were exported to France, and to countries connected with her. Out of the fifty-one millions exported from this country during last year, it appeared by the statement before them that eight millions five hundred thousand were sent to Great Britain; nine millions to the Hanse towns; to France and her dominions eleven millions. But, he asked if the gentleman from Virginia knew the reason why this amount to France appeared so large? If not, he would tell him. All the produce shipped for the British West Indies in 1797, was almost constantly cleared out for French ports, in order to avoid the effects of the plundering decrees of the French West Indies, and this was the reason why six or seven millions appeared under this head, which ought to appear under another. But the gentleman seemed to suppose that all which did not go to Great Britain went to France, and countries connected with her. At least twenty millions, out of fifty-one millions, went to countries over whom France had no power; and, when to these were added what was sent to Great Britain, and six or seven millions were deducted on the ground he had mentioned, the gentleman would find the balance was not very considerable.
Mr. H. said he should not notice what the gentleman had chosen to say respecting the British Minister, except as to the improper manner in which he had called a confidential person a confidential agent of the Minister, and to say that he could not see any analogy between this case and that of the French Minister, who fitted out privateers and levied troops in our country without permission from the President of the United States.
The gentleman from Virginia had entered fully, not only into a justification of himself, but of his friends. How far he has acquitted himself and them from the weighty charges which he had exhibited, he was not the proper person to judge; he left the public to determine. He must, however, beg leave to correct him in one of his facts. He informed the committee that the letter of Mr. Monroe, which had been quoted, was written in December, 1794, whereas it was dated Paris, September 10, 1795, long after that Minister had been officially informed by our Minister in London, that the British Treaty was concluded and signed; yet this letter recommends the taking of the posts, the invasion of Canada, and the cutting up of the British commerce by privateers. He did not say that this letter was a proof of conspiracy, but of a system of policy which was very contrary to a peace system.
But the gentleman says, he (Mr. G.) never proposed war against Great Britain. He knew it. The gentleman always spoke of peace, but pursued measures which led to war. He did not speak of war when he recommended sequestrations, confiscations, &c., because he loved peace. He did not talk of war; but, whilst he and his friends opposed measures of defence, they were in favor of every measure which led to war. While they were irritating a nation to war, they opposed the building of the frigates. He could not say what were the views of gentlemen in doing this, but he would say what appearance it had on his mind, when he was far removed from the seat of Government. He thought it seemed as if gentlemen believed it would be well to get to war, and then rely upon their favorite nation for support.
Mr. Brooks again complained of the insinuation which Mr. Giles had thrown out against him, which he said was not called for by any circumstances under consideration.
Mr. Giles assured him he mentioned the fact alluded to, out of no disrespect to him. With respect to the date of Mr. Monroe's letter, he had been deceived by a leaf being folded down at the letter, the date of which he had mentioned. The gentleman had said that he had attributed improper motives to the President of the United States. This he denied. He had said, he took measures which he did not approve, and he hoped a difference of opinion from any man would not be imputed to him as a crime. With respect to the explanation which the gentleman had given of his own conduct, he was glad to hear it. It was to obtain this explanation, that he mentioned the reports which he had heard. Mr. G. renewed the assertion, that he and his friends always had been willing to put the nation in a state of defence. As to the frigates, he gloried in his vote against them; but with respect to the use of them, the gentleman was mistaken. They were intended to be sent against the Algerines only.