Wednesday, March 31.
Funeral Expenses of Members.
Mr. Davis, from the committee to whom was yesterday referred a motion respecting "members of this House dying at the seat of Government during a session, of Congress," made a report thereon; which was read and considered: Whereupon,
Resolved, That the expenses accruing by order of the House, in attending the funeral of Narsworthy Hunter, a member from the Mississippi Territory, be paid out of the contingent funds of the House.
Resolved, That the legal representatives of a member of this House, who shall die at the seat of Government during the session, shall be entitled to receive the same allowance for his itinerant expenses, as the member would have been entitled to, had he returned to his place of abode.
Ohio State Government.
The House went again into Committee of the Whole on the report of a select committee respecting the admission of the North-western Territory as a State into the Union.
The second resolution being under consideration,
Mr. Fearing referred to the provisions of the ordinance empowering Congress to divide the Territory, from which he inferred that Congress had not the right to divide the Territory so as to form one part of it into a State, while the remaining section was not made a State, without the consent of the Territory; he conceived that Congress must, in such event, form this section also into a State. He, therefore, was of opinion that Congress must consult the people of the Territory before they shall divide the Territory.
As to the expediency of the resolution, he thought it very expedient to make the division therein marked out. The effect of it would be that the whole of Lake Erie would be thrown out of the State to be formed, and the inconvenience to the section of the Territory not incorporated in the new State would be very great, if it should be attached to the Indiana Territory, from its great distance, which he understood was contemplated.
Mr. Giles said that the committee who reported these resolutions, so far from entertaining a disposition to change the ordinance, had strictly observed the conditions therein prescribed. [Mr. G. here quoted the ordinance.] It appeared therefrom that Congress was under an obligation, after laying off one State, to form the remainder into a State. But when? Hereafter, whenever they shall think it expedient to do so.
Mr. Bayard agreed that there was no obligation imposed upon Congress to decide definitively the boundary of a State. If the ultimate right of Congress, after the formation of a new State, to alter the boundary be doubted, they have a right to remove all doubts by so declaring at this time. It is certain that at present great inconvenience would arise from drawing the boundary as fixed in the resolution.
The population of the Territory does not amount to that which is sufficient to give it admission into the Union. He had, however, no disposition to oppose its admission, notwithstanding this circumstance. The population in the Eastern State does not exceed forty-five thousand. We are now about to pare off five or six thousand inhabitants, which will bring it down to thirty-nine thousand. A population of forty-five thousand is quite small enough for an independent State. It is a smaller population than exists in any of the present States in the Union. From this consideration, it might have been expected that Congress would take no step whose effect would be a diminution of that population.
The division, as made in the resolution, is manifestly unjust, as far as it relates to the people north of the dividing line. By it they are about to be severed from their connection with the other portion of the Territory. Mr. B. wished to know to whom they are to be attached? If attached to the Indiana Territory, the inhabitants, to arrive at the seat of Government, will be obliged to go across the new State, a distance of two or three hundred miles. Besides, after having advanced them to the second grade of territorial government, you will consign them back again to the first, and thereby give them a system of government extremely odious, and which we ought to get rid of as soon as possible. Thus, after having held out to them the flattering prospect of being elevated to the high rank of a State, you degrade them, contrary to their expectations, to the humblest condition in the Union. Mr. B., therefore, thought it would be most just and politic to include this population of five or six thousand in the bounds of the new State, subject to the reserved right of Congress to alter the boundary hereafter.
Mr. Giles said he was not tenacious of his opinions; but it was necessary to justify the contents of the report by stating some considerations that might not be generally known to the members of the House.
Mr. G. said he supposed the section of the Territory, not embraced in the new State, would be attached to the Indiana Territory; nor would any great hardship result from this disposition; and such as did result would arise from their local situation and not from any circumstances over which the National Legislature had a controlling power. He believed that people, to reach the seat of Government, had as far to go now as they will then have. His object was to reserve in future to Congress the right of determining the boundary of the States in the Territory. If this section should once be admitted, he believed it would be very difficult, however proper, to detach it from the State to which it had become attached.
The report contemplates the forming a constitution. Should the people on the northwardly side of the line be admitted as a part of the State, they will participate in the formation of the constitution—a constitution which will not be ultimately for themselves, but after a short time exclusively for others. This participation would be unjust. The question then is, whether you will suffer those to form a constitution who are not to be permanently affected by it; and whether, if you once constitute a State, you will be able hereafter to alter its boundaries? For if this section be now admitted, gentlemen, by looking at the map, will see that the boundary now fixed cannot be permanent.
As to the remarks made by the gentleman from Delaware, Mr. G. said he was extremely glad that gentleman was for giving to the Territory the right of a State. If, however, he had attended to the report, he would have found that his calculation of numbers was incorrect. The population of five thousand had been deducted by the committee, and after that deduction forty-five thousand remained. Though the numbers in the Territory proposed to be formed into a State amounted, a year ago, to no more than forty thousand, yet it might be stated upon strong ground, that, before the new government can get into operation, there will be a sufficient population to demand admission as a matter of right. By attaching the inhabitants on the north of the line to the Indiana Territory, they will remain in the same grade of government they now are, and not be degraded, as stated by the gentleman from Delaware, to a lower state. This disposition appeared to Mr. G. the best that could be made. But if, when gentlemen came to the details of the bill, it should be thought best to introduce into the new State the population north of the line, he said he might have no objection.
Mr. Fearing stated the great inconveniences that would be felt by the inhabitants north of the line, if attached to the Indiana Territory. He considered the remarks of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Giles,) respecting the participation of this description of citizens in forming a constitution for others, as entitled to little weight. Such a measure was by no means uncommon. It had been done in the case of Kentucky, and other States.
Mr. F. conceived that the people of the Territory had all equal rights under the ordinance; they had been virtually promised that they should not be attached to any other Western Territory, and Congress had only reserved to themselves the right of admitting them into the Union as States. More they could not do, without their consent.
Mr. Bayard moved to strike out of the resolution the words that fix the boundary, for the purpose of introducing words that should prescribe that the new State be circumscribed by the original boundaries of the Eastern State, referring to Congress the right of making one or more States in said State at any future time.
Mr. Giles said that the State, as formed in the report, was one of the most compact and convenient in the Union. The amendment would materially change its character. Besides, it would in fact impair the right of Congress to accommodate the boundaries to future circumstances. It was well known, and sensibly felt, that there were many inconvenient boundaries to several of the States now in the Union; yet so great was the difficulty attending their alteration, that they could not be changed.
Mr. Bayard was not so sensible of the difficulty of altering the boundaries as the gentleman from Virginia, who had stated that Congress would not have power to alter them when once fixed. This difficulty might exist as to the States now in the Union, because Congress had not the constitutional power to alter them without the consent of the adjacent States. But if this power be referred to Congress, which will be a disinterested tribunal, there will be no difficulty in varying the boundaries as circumstances shall dictate.
Mr. B. asked, if, while gentlemen are attending to the interests and wishes of one part of the people, they are disposed to disregard the interests and wishes of another part? If they were not, they ought to admit the section, proposed by the resolution to be cut off, to a participation in State rights.
Mr. Bacon objected to the amendment. He said that Congress were vested by the constitution with certain powers which they cannot increase, or diminish, or delegate. By the constitution likewise, the several States are vested with certain powers which they cannot increase, diminish, or divest themselves of. By the third section of the fourth article of the constitution, "new States may be admitted by the Congress into the Union." This act proposes to make this Territory a State with State powers under the constitution. How, then, can these people, once a State, divest themselves of these powers. This is a question that does not interest simply the State proposed to be formed, but every State in the Union. All are equally interested in preserving the powers vested in them by the constitution.
Mr. Bayard said he did not see any occasion for striking out the proviso. The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Bacon) goes on the principle that Congress has only a right to admit, without any reservation. Mr. B. said he had always believed the greater included the smaller. If you are vested with the greater power of admitting, you have certainly the minor powers included in the greater power. From the nature of the ordinance, it constitutes the fundamental principle on which the States are admitted—they are not admitted under the constitution. They are to be admitted exclusively under the provision of the ordinance. You may, therefore, say that you will not now exercise the whole power committed to you, but reserve the right of exercising it hereafter.
Mr. Smilie did not consider the principle laid down by the gentleman from Delaware as constitutional. We must be governed by the constitution. If the Territory be admitted as a State into the Union, when admitted it must be bound down by the constitution, which says the boundaries of States shall not be altered but with the express permission of the State.
Mr. Giles—The gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. Griswold,) affects lately to have discovered a great deal of disguise in the proceedings of this House. What disguise? What were the committee to do? This country is placed in a certain peculiar situation. We have waters running to the East—then to the West; and the committee thought it was desirable to connect these by good roads. With the committee, State principles or interests had no influence—they were governed entirely by general principles and the common interest.
The gentleman has also insinuated that the Secretary of the Treasury holds lands that will be benefited by these roads. It may be so. Mr. G. had not inquired; but he supposed he did not hold all the lands. Congress may lay out these roads as they please. He could foresee how Congress would lay them out, and it is a million to one that they will not touch his lands.
The United States are about making a new contract. These propositions are made as additional securities for the national property. The Secretary of the Treasury having estimated the annual product of these lands at four hundred thousand dollars, Mr. G. said, as chairman of the committee, he had applied to him to know his opinion of the manner in which this sum could be best secured, and he gave his opinion that this provision would be most likely to effect that object. This is all the mystery and disguise attending the resolution.
Mr. Smilie said when gentlemen charge particular States with injustice, they ought to be prepared to prove what they advance. If there had been any co-operation between the delegations of Virginia and Pennsylvania on this occasion, he had never heard of it. The fact was, that no peculiar good could result to Pennsylvania from this measure. The great object was to keep up that intercourse which will attach the people of the Territory to you. When the Territory shall become a State, she will have a right to tax your lands. This benefit, together with the salt-springs, as I understand, is proposed as a substitution far the relinquishment of those rights.
Mr. Fearing said he considered a part of the rights of the Territory given up by this resolution; and though the Territory would be highly benefited by the projected roads, and the cession of the salt-springs, yet he conceived they would be much more benefited by laying out the roads within the Territory.
Mr. Griswold said he was glad the honorable gentleman from Virginia had assured the House there was no disguise in this business. If the object be to make an advantageous contract with the Territory to secure our Western lands, let us offer them five per cent. of the proceeds of those lands, to be paid into their treasury. If they shall be disposed to make roads through Pennsylvania and Virginia, he should have no objection.
He was as sensible as the gentleman from Virginia, that whatever improves a part of the Union improves the whole; though this was undoubtedly the case, he was not of opinion that a sum of money should be taken from the public treasury, and specially applied to local purposes. Under this resolution, according to the calculation of the Secretary of the Treasury, forty thousand dollars was the smallest sum that would be annually applied to the laying out of those roads. Mr. G. said he thought the sum too large to be withdrawn from the national treasury, and directed to local objects.
The allusion of the gentlemen to light-houses raised on the Connecticut shore does not apply. There was but one light-house in Connecticut, ordered to be built by this House, for which the enormous sum of twenty-five hundred dollars had been appropriated. Yet this solitary measure had been rejected by the Senate. This is the great boon given to Connecticut!
For these reasons Mr. G. hoped the article would be stricken out, and that, if it was necessary to make terms with the new State, they might receive five per cent. on the receipts of the land, to be paid into their own treasury, disposable by themselves as they saw fit.
Messrs. R. Williams, Jackson, and Holland, said a few words in favor of retaining the article; when the question was taken on striking it out, and lost—yeas 17.
Mr. Fearing, wishing that half the proceeds of the Western lands should be laid out on roads within the Territory, made a motion to that effect; lost—yeas 25.
The report of the select committee, without further amendment, was then agreed to, and a bill ordered in conformity thereto.