Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. You worked for Judy Bond, Inc.?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, Judy Bond, and Nancy Greer, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. The same firm?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I worked simultaneously, held two jobs at the same time.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in 1957; fall. That is when I returned. I couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. I switched to dresses.

Mr. Jenner. Is the name Jack Rothenberg familiar to you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember the people at Judy Bond. Could be one of them, maybe. Maybe he was with Greer.

Mr. Jenner. The records reflect that you were employed there as a designer in the fall of 1957.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe it was with Nancy Greer. There were two—Mr. Littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner. Maybe that is him. I don't remember the names.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall working for Handmacher Vogel in 1956?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You remember when I told you I flew in and designed a collection for him? And at the same time for Leeds Limited. The same year.

Mr. Jenner. Leeds Coats, Inc.?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Also 1956, wasn't it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It wasn't 1956. It was 1957. No. Leeds was 1956. Judy Bond was 1957, and Nancy Greer was 1957. You are right.

Mr. Jenner. Then you worked for Martins in 1942, 1944, and 1945, and in the fall of 1946?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you cannot call it exactly working. You see, we have in New York, they celebrate Jewish holidays, 3 days. And instead of staying home, I went and I worked in retail store, which happens to be Martins.

Mr. Jenner. Martins Fashion Apparel Store?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it was a store in Brooklyn. I knew buyers very well. And it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want, on the floor. That was the general idea.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I just want to be sure about the time. 1942, 1944, and 1945.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It sounds more or less correct. But I don't remember for sure.

Mr. Jenner. And the fall of 1946. Then you worked for a while for R. H. Macy.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Just on the same basis—just for a couple of days.

Mr. Jenner. That is all right. I just want to know that you did.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. About when was that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. It must be before 1947, because when I switched to my next firm, I didn't do it any more. I just couldn't combine it.

Mr. Jenner. Way back in 1941 you worked for a while for Bloom and Eagen.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right, a dress firm.

Mr. Jenner. Can you remember about when that was? You worked there as a model?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was before I even started with Leeds.

Mr. Jenner. You worked there as a model.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Lombardy Coat Co.?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe it was one of my very first ones. I don't remember which one was first. Just a very, very, short time, a couple of months. I remember I worked for Lombardy when Pearl Harbor happened. That was December 7. I will never forget it.

Mr. Jenner. And your employment in Dallas was——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. 1953.

Mr. Jenner. I should take it chronologically. What was the company for which you worked in 1953?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Nardis; Nardis of Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. And that spanned about what period of time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That spanned almost a year, starting summer 1953.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think I terminated the contract around April.

Mr. Jenner. Around April of 1954?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; approximately.

Mr. Jenner. Then you worked for whom?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From then on, I moved to California, and I started to work for Style Garment, Los Angeles.

Mr. Jenner. That would be 1954?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was 1954, and I think it lasted not too long, just until Christmas. And then I had nothing at all until I had an offer from Clark in the spring of 1955.

Mr. Jenner. And that——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was my first job with Clark, because I worked for Nardis before.

Mr. Jenner. And you worked for Clark for how long?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. For Clark, on and off almost until our trip, our walking trip to Central America. I worked with them until 1960.

Mr. Jenner. That was in 1960?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. 1960.

Mr. Jenner. Then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and summer and fall of 1960?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was just fall. We started October 6. We left Dallas on October 6 or October 5.

Mr. Jenner. 1960?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. 1960.

Mr. Jenner. And you returned when?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And we returned to Dallas fantastically close to the same date—in the very first days of October. I worked for another company for one season, 6 months, Justin McCarthy, before our trip.

Mr. Jenner. Spring or fall?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was summer, just before we went on our trip. I believe it was June, July, and August, September, maybe too. 1960. I worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip.

Mr. Jenner. And you got back in 1961. Then did you return to work when you got back?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't, because we thought we are going to go back to Haiti in 6 weeks. The contract that my husband was negotiating was supposed to materialize within 6 weeks. And I was stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. So, naturally, I could not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved. You start and cannot drop it. And then it was dragging and dragging and dragging, and actually took a year instead of 6 weeks to materialize the whole thing.

Mr. Jenner. But it did eventually materialize?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; fortunately it did. Because I was badly hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off on this, and he couldn't do very much, either.

Mr. Jenner. And——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. For me it was really drastic.

Mr. Jenner. But you went to work—you did return to work before you went to Haiti?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but a short time. I just did it because we needed to do it.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Millinery. I was working in the millinery department, Sanger and Harris, Preston Center, Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Preston Center?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Preston Center Store.

Mr. Jenner. And you worked in the millinery department until just before——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Before we left for the east, before we made a trip east. And we left 19 April. We drove off from Dallas. Nineteenth of April we left Dallas. Instead of staying a week or 10 days as we planned, because George had so much trouble with his little girl, and then he was also in Washington.

We returned almost at the last days of May. I had 2 days to pack the whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and God knows—we almost went crazy, you know. We did it all in 2 days. And then we drove back to Miami, because we had to ship a car. Grace Line wasn't going to Haiti any more. So we drove to Miami, and we flew over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with everything.

Mr. Jenner. From the time you left for Haiti from Miami, which, I think, was on the second of June——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We arrived 2 June. Oh, yes; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. 2 June 1963, have you been back to the United States other than this trip you have now made to testify?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; we have been a couple of days in San Juan about 10 days ago. That is as close as we came to the United States. In fact, we didn't leave the country at all.

Mr. Jenner. That applies to your husband?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; absolutely.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the period of time when your present husband was on a mission for the International Cooperation Administration in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you join him there?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I joined him there. I forgot exactly the date. Right after my collection was opened, right after I finished designing—I joined him—it was supposed to be only 6 weeks, it was my vacation. But within this time these letters were sent out by my husband. I had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and they have somebody else. Of course, when I returned, I went back with this firm again. But at that particular time I lost the job.

Mr. Jenner. You joined him in Yugoslavia. What town was that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Zagreb.

Mr. Jenner. And you were with him in Zagreb how long?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or 10 days. It wasn't very long. He was switched from one area to another. He worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. And then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. It was Petrovaz, a little town.

Mr. Jenner. And he remained there, and you remained there how long?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In Petrovaz?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think it was a few weeks or so. Then he had time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to Milicher. That was an old king's palace converted into a hotel. Did he tell you they had been shooting at us in Yugoslavia?

Mr. Jenner. When you were at the shore? Yes; he said something about that. But I would like to have you tell me about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we don't like public beaches. We like to be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature—nothing that already will be prepared for us. So we took—in the morning we took a walk in the mountains. We climbed the mountains.

In the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. And it was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast—the most beautiful spot in the world. And the mountains—we saw something that looked like a fortification. I noticed a ladder standing there. So we were rowing and pointing to it. And all of a sudden we hear shots. We thought it was old fortifications from Italian time, or whatever they were. But they were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested in it. They were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing this, go away further. And we had to really go very far out in the sea.

He didn't want to. He said, "At least if they shoot at us, I want to do something to them—this way we are just lost at sea. Nobody would know a single thing happened to us." He didn't want to row out.

Mr. Jenner. Who is obnoxious?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. My husband. I said that is silly, I don't want to be shot like a chicken. Go out to the sea and we will go back to the shore. I want to make a complaint. And we rowed out. He rowed out—his bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. The current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it was very difficult.

So when we came back he talked to some people over there. They said, "They shoot at us, too. If accidentally you wander too close to Brioni, the villa where Tito lives—they shoot at us, too." That wasn't enough. We went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a little island. We left the canoe.

Mr. Jenner. Canoe or rowboat?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. This was a canoe. The first time was a rowboat. So we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front of a beautiful cave, and I was taking his photograph standing in the water in front of another cave. It was beautiful—just like a curtain drape. And all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from me in the water. So, of course, we went right under the water in the cave and we were sitting there—what are we going to do? We are quite far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. We thought, well, they shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and talk with us. So we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk to us, but nobody came.

So we sat for a couple of hours. Finally, we got disgusted. So we dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore. Somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. And this time he really got angry. He made complaint to the government, and some of their officials came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was another accident. The little island we thought was completely empty, not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. So that is what happened to us in Yugoslavia.

When George told me the American people thought he was making sketches of something, I said I can understand the Yugoslavs thinking such things, but I said I couldn't understand about the United States Government.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they don't know at the time. They just see somebody doing some sketching.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; just like in Haiti, every day—he went for a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with Nero.

Mr. Jenner. Nero is one of your pups?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is the one that made the trip. So, of course, Haitians—they almost called him Longaron—that is a werewolf, Lougrow. So that could get him in trouble, too. But Haitians are very mild people. They just enjoyed it.

Mr. Jenner. When did you leave Europe on that occasion?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. When—1957?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot tell you exactly. But it was in the fall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you both return to the United States together?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. He stayed there much longer. He returned in November, because I remember right after he returned Clark was in New York.

Mr. Jenner. That is I. Clark?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And in fact he went with me to meet him at the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me into going back to Texas, which I wanted anyway. So then we returned together to Texas. We went to visit his brother first, in Dartmouth.

Mr. Jenner. At Hanover, N.H.?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and then we drove slowly—we drove through Florida, because I had never been in Florida, never saw it—St. Augustine. We have a convertible car always, so we like to drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. And then through Pensacola, through New Orleans. We stopped in New Orleans, with his old, old friends, the Crumps, but they are dead now, I believe. They have tremendous gardenia gardens there. We arrived Thanksgiving Day at Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Of what year?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was 1957; still 1957.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall your husband making a trip to Ghana?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he did. I believe it was in 1958, in late spring.

Mr. Jenner. And——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not for long. It was about 3 weeks or so.

Mr. Jenner. That was for what purpose? What did you understand it to be for?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, to make—he was working for some people, for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and he made some reports. In fact, his reports were printed even in the National Geographic. He did very good research. And the things he said now came true. They discovered a tremendous amount of oil in Nigeria.

Mr. Jenner. Nigeria and Ghana, are they the same?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. They are not the same, but they are close. He was in Ghana, Togoland, and Nigeria. You see, you can trace the lines throughout the whole world by the formations. It is a fascinating business. If it wouldn't be too late for me, I would switch to that now. It is a fantastic business.

Mr. Jenner. It is fantastic?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. If you love nature. Otherwise, it is no fun at all.

Mr. Jenner. Well——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In fact, I try to help him whenever I can. I draw maps. Just now I made for him some maps in the Dominican Republic about this nickel mine and everything. He couldn't have it photostated. They were too old. So I sit down and draw it any time I can, because I really love that.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us without too much elaboration particularly about your trip down through Mexico and Central America.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I tell you, it is a trip I will never forget, as long as we live. And I don't think we ever had a more exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us.

Of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy with George's little boy. So we didn't care what will happen to us—we get killed or not killed—the only thing we worry about Nero being an orphan if something happen to us.

But it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little trails, old Camino Reales, old Spanish trails. And they planned it so well, at the end of each day we always found water. We never carried water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. We always took water supply in the afternoon. And we also tried to buy his corn in the afternoon, his dinner.

Mr. Jenner. The mule?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn. Like high octane gas. And it took us about 5½ months through Mexico. Then it was Guatemala, Salvador. It really was very interesting.

Mr. Jenner. Costa Rica?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not yet. After Salvador, we were trying to cross by boat directly to Nicaragua, because we didn't want to make that horrible big corner in Honduras, but we couldn't. So we had to go through Honduras and then Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama. And then we were planning to spend another year and go all the way to Chile. And we would. We were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. We were thin like rails. And George has never been that thin in his life. He was in good physical shape. But the torrential rains—we were almost swept out a couple of times. And we would have to wait 6 months in Panama in order to proceed. We couldn't take that much time from our life, from our work. So I talked him into going to Haiti. He was going to return to Dallas. And I didn't want to.

Mr. Jenner. Before you get to Haiti—was that purely a business trip—I mean a pleasure trip?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot of minerals on the way. And he sent them—he had been sending them to be safe. And they were all lost. A tremendous amount of minerals. We found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such perfect crystallization. And they are all gone, all lost.

But we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it, because it is fascinating. We couldn't take much time for anything, because we only had 6 months' visa through Mexico.

Mr. Jenner. Your visa in Mexico permitted you to stay there 6 months?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. A tourist visa, 6 months. We were up on the border—that means we have to fly to Mexico City to extend it, it would be too much trouble. We were sort of in a hurry.

But in Guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. There was a volcano erupting. Hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. Can you imagine what is an erupting volcano? I was dreaming about that since I was this big, that I want to see a volcano, I want to look in the crater. So we climbed every volcano. And this one was erupting. The lava was gushing down. We have photographs and movies. I am from the red lava a yard away, just burning. And poor little Nero—my hair is standing on my head from the heat. It was a fascinating sight. Then we walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there any consideration other than you have indicated, any purpose—I will put it that way—of your trip other than you have indicated?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did it have any connection with any government, any agency, or any government?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not at all.

Mr. Jenner. Or have any political aspects whatsoever?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I know you have to ask these questions, but there was none at all, absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. Now, while you were making your trip down through Mexico and the Central American countries, the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred, did it not?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. But we learned about it much later.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Were you aware of the Bay of Pigs invasion in advance?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Advance? We were not even aware at the time of it.

Mr. Jenner. You were not?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. But we noticed something very funny. We noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. They looked like American boys. And then when we—we had——

Mr. Jenner. Where was that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In Guatemala City. We have all our mail always sent to the American Embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived, asked them to hold it. They have been wonderful about it. So the minute we arrived to the city—we leave our mule and go right away to the Embassy to pick up our mail. And it was very funny. There was such a commotion, such confusion in the American Embassy, we just remarked about it. They were running around, busy, busy. I forgot the name of the American consul. He was on the phone all the time, such a confusion was going on.

So we noticed that. And we noticed those funny looking boys running around. I thought they were Canadian boys. And later on we learned that there was an invasion.

So maybe that was the people that were involved in it.

Mr. Jenner. That is all you know about the Bay of Pigs invasion?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is all we know about it.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in Cuba?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. There was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and you were in Mexico that there was a Russian mission?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Mikoyan?

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was exactly the time when Alexandra eloped. We were two weeks in Mexico City. George was on business. And there was also a Russian exhibit which we missed in New York.

Mr. Jenner. What was the time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Do you have a date when she eloped—sometime in November.

Mr. Jenner. What year?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to get to the year now. 1959 must be. I think it was 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Wait a minute.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe it was November 1959, to my best belief. I cannot be sure.

Chronologically, it must be around there.

Mr. Jenner. You tell me about the incident and I will find the date.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was very simple. We had dinner with the presidential pilot and some other friends.

Mr. Jenner. That is the pilot of the President of Mexico?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Captain Gordunio Nounio. I can't spell the name. Can we just say presidential pilot?

Mr. Jenner. Whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. Now, you have to tell us how to spell it. Spell it phonetically, as you understand it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. G-o-r-d-u-n-i-o N-o-u-n-i-o.

They were giving him—the Mexicans were giving him a big farewell reception sort of party at the airport. And, of course, it was guarded, and nobody could get in there. He said, would you like to see Mikoyan? I said, of course I would.

Mr. Jenner. Who said that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The pilot.

I said, of course, we would like to see him. It would be a lot of fun to see somebody from real Russia, not just the immigrants. So then George wanted to go, too, to start with. And I said, "You better don't go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. If I go, they know very well I cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt you businesswise." People in Texas are very narrow-minded.

So I went in the morning. He picked me up at the hotel. We went to that reception. I did it out of sheer curiosity. I wanted to see the crowd, I wanted to see the people, I was looking at women. It was, of course, pathetic. Women don't even look like women.

Mr. Jenner. Who are you talking about?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The Russian women, at the reception. The Russians are supposed to be good-looking people. They were not even good looking. There was only one man that was good looking. He was in some kind of uniform. I don't know what his rank or what it is, because I don't know the uniforms. There was only one handsome man in the whole tremendous crowd. And then we went all the way to the plane. I was with the captain, and he was very close—very good friend of Mikoyan. We came over. I didn't say one word in Russian all the time, I was speaking English. And then we came over to the plane.

Mr. Jenner. You went out to the airport?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. To the airport, when he was already leaving, after making all the speeches and everything. We went with the captain to say goodbye to Mikoyan, at the plane. They had the Russian plane standing there, the cameras, TV's. And he introduced me to Mikoyan, this is my friend Señora De Mohrenschildt. And I take his hand and said——

Mr. Jenner. You spoke in Russian?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I told him in Russian, how are you, Tovarish Mikoyan. And he was so shocked, because I didn't look like a Russian, I looked like a fashion plate, and spoke English all the time. And all of a sudden, I deliberately—it was sort of a prank. He almost fainted. It was fantastic. I didn't make any secrets. I told about it in Dallas to everybody.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that was purely an adventure?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, sure. It was just a prank, just for fun.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You had no prior association with Mr. Mikoyan, or any member of the Russian mission when you went to Mexico—you had not anticipated the presence of the Russian mission?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We didn't know that they were there, absolutely. George went on his business. It just happened to be that they had this exhibit there, and it happens to be that Mikoyan was there—I think they were offering a lot of money to the Mexican Government, and the Mexican Government refused it. They didn't take it. But they have been on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it—they just didn't accept it, they didn't accept his proposal.

And we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the presidential pilot.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right. We have obtained, either from you or from your husband, the marriage date of Alexandra.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That must be November 1959.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That happened within those 2 weeks we were in Mexico City.

Mr. Jenner. You went from Panama to Haiti?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. We were trying to go by boat. We went to Colon, to get the boat. There was no boat. So we had to fly.

Mr. Jenner. You flew to Haiti?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the purpose of that visit to Haiti?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The main purpose was to rest, and another purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father, 75-year-old man that according to his letters to George, he loved him like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. So I told George, if we don't go now, we might never see him.

Mr. Jenner. What was his name?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Michael Breitman. And he died within the next year.

Mr. Jenner. But that was—that visit to Haiti at that time was to visit this gentleman?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And to rest.

Mr. Jenner. From your long, arduous trip through Central America?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You then returned to the United States?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. By boat?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. By boat, by Lykes Line.

Mr. Jenner. And your harbor was what—St. Charles, or Lake Charles?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think it is Lake Charles. They changed in the last month. They never know which port. We were met by friends over there, the Savages.

Mr. Jenner. And the Mitchells?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And we crossed straight to their house, stayed with them a few days. Then a friend of ours loaned us a car and we drove to Dallas. And then he came over and picked up the car.

Mr. Jenner. Your friend——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From Houston. We have quite a few friends in Houston.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period when you met the Oswalds.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But I want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the nature of the Russian colony in Dallas at that time.

Now, as I understand it, you met the Oswalds in the summer of 1962.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In the late summer.

Mr. Jenner. There was a small Russian colony?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You see, I wouldn't classify it as a colony. There are some odds-and-ends Russian people.

Mr. Jenner. I am using a reference to identify a more or less heterogeneous group of people in Dallas who had a measure of common interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had been born or had a relatively immediate contact with Russia.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you see, there are two types of Russian people there—some that came in after the revolution, and there are some new ones that escaped during the Second World War, from Germany.

Mr. Jenner. You are now telling me about this situation in Dallas, are you not?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to classify who was before and who came in later.

Mr. Jenner. But you are telling me about people in Dallas?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I know, the latest arrivals to the United States was, of course—Marina was, and I think there was another one, Declan Ford.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Declan Ford?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. She was on What's My Life, or something, a dramatic story. She married an American boy, and he rescued her, and so on and so forth. They came over and lived in Dallas. His name was Skotnicki, and then they divorced. I think he was Polish. He was a nice fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage broke up.

Mr. Jenner. There were at this time in Dallas some people of Russian derivation. Some had come directly from Russia—that is, in the sense that they were caught up in the vortex of the Second World War.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The Germans invaded Russia. They were prisoners, civil prisoners.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Her story is something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Taken by the Germans and brought to Germany, and when the war ended, they met American boys, and married them.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but that is the only one I know. I don't know of anybody else.

Mr. Jenner. Then others had escaped Russia or Poland?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. For instance, one of them—she was never even in Russia—that type of Russian colony. She was married to an American man.

Mr. Jenner. Well, this is a group that had common interests—interested in each other?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, they all criticize each other. Some people were closer, some people were further apart. They were not exactly all friends—I will put it that way.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see—you had been there—well, you were off and on commencing in 1953, and then relatively permanently commencing in 1957.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. 1956, 1957.

Mr. Jenner. Now, as people came to Dallas, that is persons with this history, did you people—and I don't mean just you alone, but I am talking about the whole group—become interested in them, seek to meet them, become acquainted?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, if anybody heard that there was all of a sudden a new Russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people they are. And, of course, if they were destitute or something—and none of them were really—only Marina was—then we helped them.

But there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you generally—were you advised normally in advance that somebody new was coming?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. In fact, they were talking about Marina for months to us. I said, after all, we should really meet that young girl. They were talking for a couple of months.

Mr. Jenner. Who?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we found out about her actually through, I believe, George Bouhe. I think George probably told you the name.

Mr. Jenner. What about Max Clark?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Max Clark, too, because they lived in Fort Worth. Max Clark and Gali Clark. And actually George Bouhe was very active. He is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity things. He is the one that organizes things like that. So he said he even had a fund for them—the people would give money—because he gave money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Bouhe did give you money——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. To pay for her dentist.

Mr. Jenner. And do you remember how much that was?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, it wasn't very much—maybe $20; something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive, also, some money from George Bouhe for anything else with respect to the Oswalds?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I take it from what you have said, that you were wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that Marina and Lee were coming to the Fort Worth-Dallas area before they came. You knew nothing about it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing at all.

Mr. Jenner. Now——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't even know when they came.

Mr. Jenner. Had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been in Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Before?

Mr. Jenner. Before, and then had married her, and come back, he attempted to defect?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; nothing at all—in spite that it was in some press somewhere—I believe it was printed.

Mr. Jenner. But you didn't see it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Never saw it. Never had no idea.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any discussion among you people, any of you—Bouhe, Clark, and Meller, Voshinins, Mamantov, Gravitis, Dymitruk, Raigorodsky——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is a character—Dymitruk was also imported recently. I think after we were there.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean imported?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I mean he arrived—I call him imported. He was really a sad sack.

Mr. Jenner. He was the husband of Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you about her.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. But I know very little about them.

Mr. Jenner. It may be important to us that you don't. But the part I want to emphasize here is—if it is the truth—I don't want to put any words in your mouth—that you had no advance notice that either of these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them, never heard anything?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely.

Mr. Jenner. And was that generally true of all these people?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what we know; yes. I don't think anybody knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. And, actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't even know that.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot even tell. I would like to know, myself, now, how it came about.

Mr. Jenner. They were brought to your attention?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your recollection is it was George Bouhe?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. My recollection is that he finally—we were sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally—I don't remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us for the first time. That is how it happened.

Mr. Jenner. And this was in the late summer of 1962?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that particular time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not contribute any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the baby to the clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort I would be glad to do.

Mr. Jenner. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962 you and your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we were draining pretty well, because for a year we didn't make any money, on our trip.

Mr. Jenner. I am not criticizing. All I am doing is seeking the facts.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Well——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not enough to be charitable.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on business, finances, is he?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I would say he is pretty good with money. I am the one—I made money too easily, so I squandered money. He doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He doesn't have a steady income. He has an assignment for 2 or 3 weeks, he has very good money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in.

He may have within a year two or three fantastic things—go to Ghana, go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money.

But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So he learned when he has something to hold onto it.

Mr. Jenner. So there were periods when his financial situation was good, so he was high?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That is how we took our trip, because we were very fortunate before our trip—he had an assignment in Ghana, and he made some money, and I was making very good money, so we thought we can afford it. Besides he almost lost his mind. We had to go on that trip.

Mr. Jenner. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not as affluent?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course.

Mr. Jenner. But you folks were at no time wealthy people?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Real wealthy, no.

Mr. Jenner. You made——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I could have been if I saved the money, but I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is it.

Mr. Jenner. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly; none at all.

Mr. Jenner. But you were in a position that you could afford them time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And attention?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Not them—actually with Marina, because we couldn't do much for Oswald—just talk to a couple of people about him, and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had—I don't know who got it—I think it was an agency that got him the job he had.

Mr. Jenner. At Leslie Welding?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in a darkroom.

Mr. Jenner. That was later.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't even know the name of it.

Mr. Jenner. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home or——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I really don't remember. And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still remember exactly how it came about—whether they were brought to our house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know.

Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the baby—couldn't leave the baby with anyone.

Mr. Jenner. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort Worth?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I never entered their home in Fort Worth. George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I think, when we brought Marina—so he maybe walked in the house—because he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere—there was a tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something.

Mr. Jenner. Sears?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house. That is what I saw. A wooden building.

Mr. Jenner. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely starving, but they were quite miserable—quite, quite miserable, you know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had would make anybody miserable to live with.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. What I think of the fellow?

Mr. Jenner. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable, and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody, and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was throwing it into his face.

Mr. Jenner. She was?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely—see people, how nice they are? And she is always telling me—the people are nice, giving all these things, and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for him, no matter how hard he worked—and he worked very hard. He worked overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running around.

He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very difficult personality.

And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive attitude to him.

I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, he could have killed us.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife physically. We saw her with a black eye once.

Mr. Jenner. And did you talk to him and to her about it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other."

Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she separate from Oswald—what is she going to do? She doesn't know the language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along with Oswald's family.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them.

Mr. Jenner. I want you to identify your sources of information.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.

Mr. Jenner. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they didn't get along well with their——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot say through them, because maybe people talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She is lazy. You see, there are people that actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight.

Mr. Jenner. Where? At your home?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you—if I stay with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning, see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything.

She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same thing—she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the same way—very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it—a young person. Maybe she was ill. We talked about it—maybe we have just too much energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active.

The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English—I bought them in New York when I arrived.

Mr. Jenner. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning English, or did Oswald object to her learning English?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. According to her Oswald objected, and he also told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he doesn't want to forget Russian.

But then we got onto Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about it now.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was his reason—not to let his wife learn English—because she was the only person he could speak Russian to.

Mr. Jenner. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she learned English, couldn't he?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course, that is what we told him. We said, "You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in this country without the language, she cannot do anything."

He was strange in many, many ways.

But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness.

Mr. Jenner. Please.

You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him into doing it peacefully.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you take Marina and June?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller.

Mr. Jenner. Anna Meller?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people—they put the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or 3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife, because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely.

And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure.

Mr. Jenner. In October or November?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe, yes. I don't even know.

Mr. Jenner. But why did you take Marina from the home?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think it was right. We thought that a separation for them—they will decide whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless to continue to live the way they were.

In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor—perhaps, Bouhe's type of person is afraid of his own shadow—there are people like that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he is an older man.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe.

Mr. Jenner. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your husband?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the personality.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both Marina and Lee about their difficulties?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same room.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any—as to her dissatisfaction?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. What was the reasons what?

Mr. Jenner. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied with him?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell you—it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak so, how you say it—so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by it, you know—because in my times, even I was twice as old as she.

Mr. Jenner. Will you please tell me what she said?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. She just—and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay enough attention to her.

Mr. Jenner. That was one reason?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is one of the main reasons, yes.

And the second reason, he was cruel with her—for instance, she likes to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or something—like once something—she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their main disagreements.

And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child. He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to pick the child up, Lee is after her—why is the baby crying? And the baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same time, she didn't do much to free herself from it.

Mr. Jenner. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat? Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over into those areas?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be neat, and still not very—she was not a woman to arrange the home or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it, because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will.

At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were miserable, very, very poor.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your opinion of——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. One thing I want to tell you.

When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth, when I took her—the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them a little apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, University Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every time she needs something with the car to help them.

Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff—God knows where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked very much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people give her so many things. Maybe that is why.

Why did he live so far?

We were very mad about it, too.

I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to Oak Cliff to help them with this or that"—if she had to go to the doctor. Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier for me to help her.

He had some reasons to live far away.

I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all the way out.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me of her personality.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same time, in spite she is lazy—well, it is her upbringing, that is the way she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive on the streets, she would just—oh, that is the United States.

That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big houses and everything.

Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her?

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that apartment house."

And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met.

And I don't know—but it is very possible that she was very much influential in making them come back.

Mr. Jenner. Come to the United States?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Come to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. That was the impression you obtained from her?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.

On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him.

Mr. Jenner. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had been disappointed in Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?"

And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow."

He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen."

And I said, "How come you are back?"

He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for."

Mr. Jenner. Oswald said that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I was looking for."

So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them to live. Those are the things.

And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly to compare him with that horrible Ruby—Oswald had a lot of good qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know—maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved in it.

But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging.

Mr. Jenner. You found her to be a nagger?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us.

Mr. Jenner. She did?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. Because I could see——

Mr. Jenner. What did she say? You see——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't mean anything to us. That is a conclusion.

What did she say to him?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else.

And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your impressions, but how you came by them.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. But what I want to tell you—I don't think it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us—she stayed once overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well.

He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them.

So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, and Oswald respected your husband.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little—showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him.

I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all right, he would not do it.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money so that she could live better?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I didn't know such things can happen to people, you know.

We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult—for instance, with the baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering—it has to be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is the boss, and she has to—just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. This man. So we objected to that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term "ribbing." This was not jocular, was it—not joking? It was irritating?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, reading, reading, reading.

Mr. Jenner. Would say that in your presence?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She would ridicule him, in other words?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will hurt men's pride. That definitely was.

Mr. Jenner. Try and recall more of that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think what else she said. Also, she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. That was very important. Because—and I know—I told you the reasons why he objected to that, which are understandable, also.

But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was—I remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told that to me.

There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either—that type of a person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him.

You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him after that. But Oswald didn't.

And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what. He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that Oswald was rude to people helping him.

Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your presence?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In which way? Overall political, or any particular incidents?

Mr. Jenner. Politics with a capital P. His views on government.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia, because that was—oh, this is very important.

His objection—the things that he didn't like in Russia was those horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings—they drive people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he was—according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or belonging to anything.

It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets or something, in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Passing them out?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely. Because we never had——

Mr. Jenner. You were in Haiti by that time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to visit them?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it, I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Did you arrive there during the day?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was in the evening. I think we were playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby.

And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And I remember they gave us something to drink.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived there. Were they—had they retired for the night?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think they were halfway in bed already, because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was dark.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee came to the door?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember who came to the door, Marina or Lee.

Mr. Jenner. They turned the light on. And where were they living then?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was their last apartment—not Elsbeth, but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other address I don't have. It is just around the corner.

Mr. Jenner. 214?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the address.

Mr. Jenner. Was it upstairs or downstairs?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big tree growing right next to the terrace.

Mr. Jenner. Had you been there before?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. That is the first time you had ever been there?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. You got there. Now, just relax——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. Jenner. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Then, go on. Tell me about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house—that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?

Mr. Jenner. You say——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. A rifle.

Mr. Jenner. A rifle, in the closet?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Standing up on its butt?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It looks very much like it.

Mr. Jenner. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Right against the wall?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?

Mr. Jenner. It was this rifle?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.

Mr. Jenner. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet—you saw a rifle?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That surprised you, first?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course.

Mr. Jenner. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.

Mr. Jenner. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.

Mr. Jenner. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action, but I would not know.

Mr. Jenner. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a rifle?

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.

Mr. Jenner. Skeet?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I just love it.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.

Mr. Jenner. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement parks?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Little .22?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know what it was.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?

Mr. Jenner. 6.5.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That I don't understand. We had 16—shotgun with us.

Mr. Jenner. Had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In fact, we never even knew that he was a sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she told me. And you know what happened after that.

Mr. Jenner. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think the most important thing is, that crazy lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things.

Mr. Jenner. And she also said he took it out in the park and was shooting it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Something like that; yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George—do you know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor—Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any change——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know.

Mr. Jenner. Please—I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me his. You noticed nothing?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't notice anything.

Mr. Jenner. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of expression?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; none at all. It was just a joke.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Sure.

Mr. Jenner. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at him.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you remain after that at their home?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace. And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The baby was asleep.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Never saw them?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was Easter, by the way? Do you remember—1963?

Mr. Jenner. No; I don't.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Because the 19th of April, we left.

Mr. Jenner. You left for New York on the 19th of April?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In any event, it was the day before Easter?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.

Mr. Jenner. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few weeks, a couple of weeks?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We spent about 6 weeks between New York, Washington, Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. And you returned to Dallas in May?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. End of May.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call the Oswalds?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans, with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of Everett Glover?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your husband take part in that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's friends.

Mr. Jenner. How did that party come about?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed that film—the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a woman, Ruth Paine.

Mr. Jenner. You are talking about Glover?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to American people—not to Russian refugees—to get her out of that. So he mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. What was her name?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good, because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her.

Mr. Jenner. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your home, isn't that correct?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Met her the first time that evening, and we liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too much problems with our own children.

Mr. Jenner. Who is too slow?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Marina. We had too many problems with our own children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning this trip. George—through next month to Haiti actually to seal this contract. We had our heads busy with other things.

Mr. Jenner. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life of Indians—or——

Mr. Jenner. About your trip?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. About our trip, and that was all.

Mr. Jenner. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Some were.

Mr. Jenner. Who was present?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I recall at that particular time, it was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was there.

There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that worked with Everett.

Mr. Jenner. From Everett Glover's place?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; there were people there. I do believe, I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house because they were interested in that.

Mr. Jenner. What are their names?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. She is teaching in a university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know, because it was always dark when the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived at the party late?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for dinner, and then we brought them over.

Mr. Jenner. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have indicated?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The only purpose of?

Mr. Jenner. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have indicated?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party in December of 1963 at the Fords?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the date.

Mr. Jenner. 1963.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the date, but there was a party, and we attended it.

Mr. Jenner. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in December? Was it in the holiday period?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in the holiday period, but was it December or was it early January, I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. And who was at that party?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. There were quite a lot of people from this Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you know about Yaeko?

Mr. Jenner. Y-a-e-k-o?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know Yaeko before?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we knew Yaeko before.

Mr. Jenner. What was her last name?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember her last name because we always called her Yaeko.

Mr. Jenner. Where was she working?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know whether she was working at the time or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her. Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus.

Mr. Jenner. Neiman Marcus?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But then we heard that she was in New York.

To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow—she was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing happened, too, with that Yaeko.

Mr. Jenner. Involving the Oswalds?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was very funny because they practically spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and—locked in a house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked.

Mr. Jenner. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko—by whom Yaeko was employed?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; but I can find out very easily.

Mr. Jenner. How?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Through Dallas. They know the people that actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very well.

Mr. Jenner. Spell that, please.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Two people who can give you everything about Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. Henry Rogatz, also in——

Mr. Jenner. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people.

Mr. Jenner. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Call later on?

Mr. Jenner. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address and telephone number, if you have it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.

Mr. Jenner. Voshinin?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more than anybody.

Mr. Jenner. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Mr. Jenner. To the Japanese girl?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now. That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what she told me. He really liked Yaeko.

Mr. Jenner. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby because the baby would wake up.

I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back.

Mr. Jenner. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in December of 1963 you were in Haiti.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was after this.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He was dead already.

Mr. Jenner. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home that evening?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe we did. We just had to, because we had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee, because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know. That is why we were so sorry for them.

I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little boy, too.

Mr. Jenner. With whose daughter?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. With George's daughter.

Mr. Jenner. Alexandra?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.

Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was complaining about her. So Alexandra—it didn't hit off exactly with Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, and I think they helped them to move, even.

Mr. Jenner. Gary Taylor?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he is not a man of attainment?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. None at all.

Mr. Jenner. That is entirely new to you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than we ever knew about them.

Mr. Jenner. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, as well.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Could be, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Did I what?

Mr. Jenner. Are you aware of the letter——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband show you that letter?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Before he sent it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything or if he wants to add anything to mine.

Mr. Jenner. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter was mailed.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think I really should read it.

Do you want me to read it again?

Mr. Jenner. You have read that exhibit?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read this, too?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record.

The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him in the same feeling.

Mr. Jenner. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, all that is true; isn't it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know how to feed that baby.

Mr. Jenner. She did not?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was 9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, didn't have anything.

I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a balanced diet.

I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to raise a baby correctly."

She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth.

Mr. Jenner. Marina's teeth?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; of course.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She just didn't know any better, you know. That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work, sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was absolutely too—I never thought that. I thought they were very, very proper and very——

Mr. Jenner. What did she say about how they behaved?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy interests.

And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all are, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very little, because he was always working or something. One evening I talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I was really sorry for her.

I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You cannot be very angry with her.

Mr. Jenner. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that expression I assume they were parties of——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never occur to us.

Mr. Jenner. In this country?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In this country. I would say China, too. I was brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth never acted like that at all.

So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely degeneration.

Mr. Jenner. You found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In bringing up the child?

Mr. Jenner. In bringing up this child?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely.

Mr. Jenner. That she fed her sugar and water?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Milk and sugar.

Mr. Jenner. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with the child?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The child was more or less clean, but with this pacifier thing.

Mr. Jenner. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up and stick it in the baby's mouth?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected teeth, but she was not aware of it. That is what didn't make sense, didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist—it also didn't make any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the medical help is supposed to be absolutely free.

Mr. Jenner. Can you recall any other incidents?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. With Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't recollect of anything of any importance.

Mr. Jenner. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests were involved, let us say?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was asked—I mean what swayed me about her personality——

Mr. Jenner. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers afterward. I want your opinion.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Before?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, promiscuous, you know.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Promiscuous.

Mr. Jenner. She was promiscuous but not malicious?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her.

Mr. Jenner. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and these gadgets and a refrigerator?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for very little money.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know if he even drives a car.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see him drive a car?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I have. We didn't have too much discussions about it.

Mr. Jenner. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic.

Mr. Jenner. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She did.

Mr. Jenner. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I know her very little, but I recall her. I think it is Lydia, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in Baylor Hospital, dental clinic.

Mr. Jenner. Some money had to be paid in that connection?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you got that money from George Bouhe?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right, and he told me there would be the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some funds for them.

Mr. Jenner. That if there was need for additional money——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously." You have told us about that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." Is that correct?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You recall that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the Mellers?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, go through all that trying to do something for them and then she dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles.

Mr. Jenner. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which Marina left Lee and went with some others?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't even remember that.

Mr. Jenner. You don't?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only connection we had.

Mr. Jenner. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and the late President was successful in so many domains and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband discuss that sentence with you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this letter.

Mr. Jenner. But you read the letter before it was mailed?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I read the letter.

The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have that impression of the man?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, never at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that is understandable, too. We learned that Connally refused him honorable discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, no.

Mr. Jenner. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. We read it in the papers after.

Mr. Jenner. I want to keep separated here what you learned about afterwards.

Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Never.

Mr. Jenner. That you had any contact with the Oswalds?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever mentioned?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was his boyhood ever mentioned?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. His boyhood?

Mr. Jenner. Boyhood.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. Never, never.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't remember discussing that.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in the service, and what he had done?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. I don't recall any conversation.

Mr. Jenner. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, that was rationalization afterwards?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely.

Mr. Jenner. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions should have been taken."

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Right. I agree.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson.

Mr. Jenner. So this remark in the letter is based on that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. On that, exactly.

Mr. Jenner. That is as far as you are concerned?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. As far as we are concerned, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband may have had something else in mind?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right wing, extreme right wing?

Mr. Jenner. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. And so there was a lot of——

Mr. Jenner. Animosity?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan.

Mr. Jenner. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last sentence, did your husband discuss that with you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. We talk about it very often.

Mr. Jenner. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't even see the letter.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he prepared the letter?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just wrote the letter.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more than once?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think I took her twice there, I believe. They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit.

Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, "For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you still didn't meet the Oswalds?"

She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason."

I said, "What are the reasons?"

She said, "I cannot tell you."

Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you gave them these language records?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. A phonograph.

Mr. Jenner. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money that you had received from George Bouhe?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Right.

Mr. Jenner. But you didn't give them any of your own money?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not that I ever recall.

Mr. Jenner. You brought them gifts?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Just tiny little things.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. You gave her some clothing.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have it altered for her and she didn't need to.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home overnight you gave her——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever discuss his finances with you and your husband?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay out the debt.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the United States and its form of government?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Never. He objected to the way the integration question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do.

Mr. Jenner. He was opposed to segregation, was he?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we have.

Mr. Jenner. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his views were.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is completely in accord with President Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this investigation?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, the only thing, the question I actually brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Never heard of him.

Mr. Jenner. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. That he operated?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, disposed to attend that sort of thing.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; not at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence.

Mr. Jenner. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as drinking is concerned?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No.

Mr. Jenner. I mean apart from newsreels?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. TV? No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of Jack Ruby's places?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put it that way.

Mr. Jenner. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the newspapers?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is the only thing I know.

Mr. Jenner. And not on any actual facts you know anything about?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, sir; and, also based on the natural deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any sense. The whole evidence just points to—the thing is much too simple. How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't he try to cover it up a little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any sense.

No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't have a good time, I am sure, and he did not.

What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know?

It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it.

Mr. Jenner. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first time?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That you knew anything about a rifle?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only person that was, you know, what I mean—maybe it was just because she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with Marines staying in the east.

Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling—Marina was telling me the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so on and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. That is, Oswald had told her that?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. She needled him?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be completely imagination, you know, all of these things.

Mr. Jenner. You have appeared voluntarily?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. What did you say?

Mr. Jenner. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your deposition?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, absolutely.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from Mr. Rankin?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we did.

Mr. Jenner. General counsel of the Commission?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution 137?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; two copies.

Mr. Jenner. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And fixing its responsibilities?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed that is what it was.

Mr. Jenner. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I probably did.

Mr. Jenner. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you and your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately has led to this.

Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden to see your child."

The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did something very big.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he didn't.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow—at the moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart.

The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever possible and he is really doing something constructive.

By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult.

For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped?

Mr. Jenner. We will see what we can do about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able to see the little girl.

We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?"

He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it will come up.

For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in 2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know.

Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's little girl.

If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you very much.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You want the addresses?

Mr. Jenner. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish.

Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the necessity of reading it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little things to do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am sure, because if something was not just exactly so, I don't think it really matters.

Mr. Jenner. These men are quite competent and they take down everything.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is wonderful.

Mr. Jenner. Then you will waive your reading and signing?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to be signed?

Mr. Jenner. No; not unless you insist on it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you very, very much.

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