TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.
Mr. Jenner. Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday.[1]
[1] The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the Commission appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.
I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.
The Reporter. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Paine. I do.
Mr. Jenner. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. Paine.
Mr. Jenner. My material indicates that you were born in New York City.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. In 1932.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you remained in New York City until when?
Mrs. Paine. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.
Mr. Jenner. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?
Mrs. Paine. My family moved to New Jersey.
Mr. Jenner. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?
Mrs. Paine. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.
Mr. Jenner. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?
Mrs. Paine. No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.
Mr. Jenner. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. Jenner. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. I must have been 10 or about to be 10.
Mr. Jenner. And you attended elementary schools and high school in Columbus?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?
Mrs. Paine. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.
Mr. Jenner. 1949 was it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?
Mrs. Paine. I did, in 1955.
Mr. Jenner. You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.
Mr. Jenner. And do you receive any kind of credit?
Mrs. Paine. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.
Mr. Jenner. Does Antioch College—I know you said you were of the Quaker faith—does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?
Mrs. Paine. No; it doesn't.
Mr. Jenner. What was your major at Antioch College?
Mrs. Paine. I majored in education.
Mr. Jenner. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.
Mr. Jenner. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Or group activities, at least?
Mrs. Paine. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.
Mr. Jenner. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?
Mrs. Paine. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.
Mr. Jenner. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a——
Mrs. Paine. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.
Mr. Jenner. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. That is recreation instructor and leader?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. Also, apparently—I am not certain of this—that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?
Mrs. Paine. No; that would have been the following summer.
Mr. Jenner. That would be 1951?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And where did that take place?
Mrs. Paine. With the American Friends Service Committee?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.
Mr. Jenner. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. That is after reentering Antioch.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; I had so understood.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?
Mrs. Paine. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes.
Mr. Jenner. And was your position a position of recreation leader?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. What did you teach?
Mrs. Paine. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow learning class.
Mr. Jenner. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; was it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I recall that.
Mr. Jenner. Would you state what the nature of that was?
Mrs. Paine. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.
Mrs. Paine. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.
Mr. Jenner. Where is Pendle Hill?
Mrs. Paine. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Friends, Quakers.
Mr. Jenner. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?
Mrs. Paine. Two words.
Mr. Jenner. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to—state it again.
Mrs. Paine. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.
Mr. Jenner. Oxford, England?
Mrs. Paine. England.
Mr. Jenner. And you also attended——
Mrs. Paine. A Young Friends Conference.
Mr. Jenner. At Reading, England.
Mrs. Paine. Right.
Mr. Jenner. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.
Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.
Mr. Jenner. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?
Mrs. Paine. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.
Mr. Jenner. Were they all emigres?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.
Mr. Jenner. That is a city in Russia?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.
Mr. Jenner. What was your particular activity in connection with this group?
Mrs. Paine. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.
Mr. Jenner. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change?
Mrs. Paine. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.
Mr. Jenner. In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their families here.
Mr. Jenner. That is the first of those three groups.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What was the next?
Mrs. Paine. The second was the group of young adults that met once a week.
Mr. Jenner. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?
Mrs. Paine. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.
Mr. Jenner. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or Poland?
Mrs. Paine. No, no; they had been born here.
Mr. Jenner. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?
Mrs. Paine. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.
Mr. Jenner. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?
Mrs. Paine. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.
Mr. Jenner. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.
Mr. Jenner. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?
Mrs. Paine. No; I hadn't.
Mr. Jenner. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?
Mrs. Paine. No; had these activities?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. Stimulated my interest?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.
Do you recall that as early as 1945—1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.
Mr. Jenner. This was a private——
Mrs. Paine. It is just a private farm; yes.
Mr. Jenner. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.
Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?
Mrs. Paine. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.
Mr. Jenner. You say entering a school at that time.
Mrs. Paine. I was about to enter high school.
Mr. Jenner. That was high school?
Mrs. Paine. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Friends Vacation Bible School?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mrs. Paine. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.
Mr. Jenner. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in there?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us a little bit more about that activity.
Mrs. Paine. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts and——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?
Mrs. Paine. Working with children in crafts with them.
Mr. Jenner. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. University.
Mr. Jenner. University, was it?
Mrs. Paine. This was the school I attended.
Mr. Jenner. That was your high school?
Mrs. Paine. This was the high school.
Mr. Jenner. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.
Mr. Jenner. Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?
Mrs. Paine. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.
Mr. Jenner. By the families themselves?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing—more likely stories.
Mr. Jenner. Were these quite young children?
Mrs. Paine. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.
Mr. Jenner. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. You did not?
Mrs. Paine. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended in the——
Mr. Jenner. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.
Mrs. Paine. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.
Mr. Jenner. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?
Mrs. Paine. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.
Mr. Jenner. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?
Mrs. Paine. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.
Mr. Jenner. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In what activity were you engaged at that time?
Mrs. Paine. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.
Mr. Jenner. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?
Mrs. Paine. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.
Mr. Jenner. What did you do? What was your work?
Mrs. Paine. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.
Mr. Jenner. During all of that period?
Mrs. Paine. During those 2 years.
Mr. Jenner. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. I see. That is where my confusion arose.
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?
Mrs. Paine. I think it would have been August.
Mr. Jenner. August 1955?
Mrs. Paine. It has to have been before school started.
Mr. Jenner. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?
Mrs. Paine. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.
Mr. Jenner. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough yesterday.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?
Mrs. Paine. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.
Mr. Jenner. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?
Mrs. Paine. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that——
Mr. Jenner. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954–55, along in that time, didn't you?
Mrs. Paine. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, but they were not conferences.
Mr. Jenner. I see. I am using the wrong terminology.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them.
Mr. Jenner. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?
Mrs. Paine. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.
Mr. Jenner. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. Paine. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?
Mr. Jenner. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.
Mrs. Paine. It brings nothing to my mind.
Mr. Jenner. It does not?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. That fits with my memory of it.
Mr. Jenner. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?
Mrs. Paine. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from the American Friends Service Committee, also.
Mr. Jenner. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting—was it a dinner—and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. They went on from—where was this, in Philadelphia?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And they went on from there to see other parts of America?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any native Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is to say up to November 22——
Mrs. Paine. You mean people who had been born there?
Mr. Jenner. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.
Mrs. Paine. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.
Mr. Jenner. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Jenner. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.
Mrs. Paine. I don't think of any particular contact.
Mr. Jenner. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?
Mrs. Paine. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.
Mr. Jenner. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second one, was Nina Atarina?
Mrs. Paine. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.
Mr. Jenner. And she is the school teacher?
Mrs. Paine. She is.
Mr. Jenner. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 months?
Mrs. Paine. It would be a year, I am quite certain.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.
Mrs. Paine. I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to—I am not certain of the name of the organization—to cooperative alliance in Europe.
Mr. Jenner. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?
Mrs. Paine. Having to do with insurance; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Insurance companies?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is my understanding.
Mr. Jenner. This is a commercial activity, isn't it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so. And——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?
Mrs. Paine. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.
Mr. Jenner. What is the subject he is teaching?
Mrs. Paine. It has to do with insurance.
Mr. Jenner. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father an insurance——
Mrs. Paine. He worked for the same company then.
Mr. Jenner. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Have your parents had any interests in political matters?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.
Mr. Jenner. Tell me what you understand——
Mrs. Paine. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.
Mr. Jenner. Is that something like what I would call a farmers cooperative?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know what farmers cooperative is.
Mr. Jenner. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is?
Mrs. Paine. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.
Mr. Jenner. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.
Mrs. Paine. That is a correct statement.
Mr. Jenner. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.
Mr. Jenner. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes.
Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.
Mr. Jenner. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I think that is a fair statement.
Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?
Mrs. Paine. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.
Mr. Jenner. Have you finished?
Mrs. Paine. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that.
Mr. Jenner. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does—I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"
She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."
Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive—that is November 1.
Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"
She said: "Yes."
She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."
Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?
Mrs. Paine. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.
Mr. Jenner. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.
Mr. Jenner. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?
Mrs. Paine. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.
Mr. Jenner. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.
Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection, also.
Mr. Jenner. That is your recollection?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. And that was Mr. Hosty?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?
Mrs. Paine. It could have been.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's testimony?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, I don't; no.
Mr. Jenner. It possibly could have happened that way?
Mrs. Paine. It certainly could have.
Mr. Jenner. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. Paine. I did indeed. May I interrupt?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. Could we have a short break?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Jenner. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Jenner. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. Paine. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?
Mrs. Paine. That seems correct to me.
Mr. Jenner. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?
Mrs. Paine. No; she was not.
Mr. Jenner. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it offhand.
Mr. Jenner. Your sister, Sylvia?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Or her husband?
Mrs. Paine. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.
Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; of course.
Mrs. Paine. But you don't mean that?
Mr. Jenner. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.
Mrs. Paine. I don't have any specific recollection.
Mr. Jenner. And you never did?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. Or your sister?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know that.
Mr. Jenner. Your relations with your mother and your father—would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.
Mr. Jenner. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?
Mrs. Paine. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. Do you exchange correspondence?
Mrs. Paine. We do, and photographs of the children.
Mr. Jenner. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And that has always been true, has it not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?
Mrs. Paine. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters.
Mr. Jenner. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.
Mrs. Paine. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes.
Mr. Jenner. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?
Mrs. Paine. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?
Mrs. Paine. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.
Mr. Jenner. It covers a span of years going back to your college days?
Mrs. Paine. And a few papers prior to college.
Mr. Jenner. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Jenner. Back on the record, please.
We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.
Mrs. Paine. I gave no cash.
Mr. Jenner. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?
Mrs. Paine. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.
Mr. Jenner. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.
Mrs. Paine. That was in late April.
Mr. Jenner. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time?
Mrs. Paine. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and temperature.
Mr. Jenner. What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?
Mrs. Paine. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.
Mr. Jenner. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was——
Mrs. Paine. No, the shoes were for Marina.
Mr. Jenner. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?
Mrs. Paine. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.
Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?
Mrs. Paine. That is distinctly my impression.
Mr. Jenner. They never paid you anything, in any event?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.
Mrs. Paine. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.
Mr. Jenner. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. At least during the time that Marina was with you.
Mrs. Paine. At least during the fall; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?
Mrs. Paine. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.
Mr. Jenner. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.
Mrs. Paine. That is my impression.
Mr. Jenner. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?
Mrs. Paine. I certainly do not recall.
Mr. Jenner. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?
Mrs. Paine. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.
Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?
Mrs. Paine. No; I recall no such.
Mr. Jenner. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera film?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?
Mrs. Paine. I read in the paper.
Mr. Jenner. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?
Mrs. Paine. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.
Mr. Jenner. And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?
Mrs. Paine. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different size.
Mr. Jenner. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.
Mr. Jenner. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had taken?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Or people?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?
Mrs. Paine. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money.
Mr. Jenner. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is Hutch's Market—is that something familiar to you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In Irving?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is—it is too far to walk—I am quite certain——
Mr. Jenner. How far away is the place?
Mrs. Paine. It would be a 3-minute drive—about 10 blocks.
Mr. Jenner. Ten blocks away?
Mrs. Paine. Something like that.
Mr. Jenner. Is it further away than the——
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to——
Mrs. Paine. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.
Mr. Jenner. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?
Mr. Paine. Yes; he did.
Mr. Jenner. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?
Mrs. Paine. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.
Mr. Jenner. On occasion did he pack a lunch?
Mrs. Paine. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or packed some food for him to take.
Mr. Jenner. Would you say there was anything regular about that?
Mr. Jenner. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. You recall only that one occasion?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?
Mrs. Paine. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs. Paine. No; I don't.
Mr. Jenner. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.
I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for identification.
They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.
(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?
Mrs. Paine. I recall that letter.
Mr. Jenner. And was it in 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.
In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:
"He has been out of work"—I will read the whole paragraph.
"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the baby."
That is Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much."
Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?
Mrs. Paine. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.
Mr. Jenner. From New Orleans?
Mrs. Paine. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.
Mr. Jenner. But this does not refresh your recollection?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. It does?
Mrs. Paine. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.
Mr. Jenner. Now, in the next paragraph it says:
"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."
That was your feeling at that time?
Mrs. Paine. It certainly was.
Mr. Jenner. After New Orleans?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."
Mr. Jenner. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?
Mrs. Paine. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.
Mr. Jenner. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?
Mrs. Paine. I did not expect that.
Mr. Jenner. As to your expectation—was that dependent on his securing employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send for Marina and they would be together again?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. West 5th Street—and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?
For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.
Do you recall the letter?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.
Mrs. Paine. No; I don't.
Mr. Jenner. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:
"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."
Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?
Mrs. Paine. I think that is clear in the next sentence.
Mr. Jenner. All right; read the next sentence.
Mrs. Paine. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."
We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. 1964?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?
Mrs. Paine. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.
Mr. Jenner. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was—there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?
Mrs. Paine. I had no such feeling.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have a contrary feeling?
Mrs. Paine. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.
Mr. Jenner. And what was that?
Mrs. Paine. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.
Mr. Jenner. State?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?
Mrs. Paine. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.
Mr. Jenner. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?
Mrs. Paine. No; I really didn't.
Mr. Jenner. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?
Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.
Mr. Jenner. The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr. Jenner. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?
Mr. Jenner. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)
Mr. Jenner. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.
Mrs. Paine. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.
Mr. Jenner. During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?
Mr. Jenner. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr. Jenner. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.
Mrs. Paine. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked to me——
Mr. Jenner. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her——
Mrs. Paine. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.
Mr. Jenner. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?
Mrs. Paine. Not that specifically.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.
Mr. Jenner. When they first returned from Russia?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.
I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he had been——
Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.
Mr. Jenner. Denton, Tex.?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Anything else?
Mrs. Paine. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Jenner. Brother Robert?
Mrs. Paine. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.
Mr. Jenner. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?
Mrs. Paine. I am now aware of that.
Mr. Jenner. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?
Mrs. Paine. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.
Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?
Mrs. Paine. I was under the impression——
Mr. Jenner. In the fall of 1963?
Mrs. Paine. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.
Mr. Jenner. Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?
Mrs. Paine. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But that was——
Mr. Jenner. What date was this?
Mrs. Paine. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think——
Mrs. Paine. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.
Mr. Jenner. Where? In Dallas?
Mrs. Paine. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.
Mr. Jenner. Did he come out with any mail?
Mrs. Paine. Magazines, I think.
Mr. Jenner. Were you able to observe what those magazines were?
Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Or his experiences in the service?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service?
Mrs. Paine. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.
Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?
Mrs. Paine. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.
Mr. Jenner. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?
Mrs. Paine. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.
Mr. Jenner. Did she elaborate?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?
Mrs. Paine. The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.
Mr. Jenner. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley Martin?
Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January–February, I don't know just when.
Mr. Jenner. Late January or early February?
Mrs. Paine. I would guess so.
Mr. Jenner. Of this year?
Mrs. Paine. Of 1964; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate that incident to us?
Mrs. Paine. She telephoned to ask if she could come out.
Mr. Jenner. Had you known her?
Mrs. Paine. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.
Mr. Jenner. All right; proceed.
Mrs. Paine. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall what her questions were?
Mrs. Paine. I don't specifically recall; no.
Mr. Jenner. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
Mrs. Paine. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.
Mr. Jenner. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
Mrs. Paine. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four—no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.
Mr. Jenner. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and Tuesday?
Mrs. Paine. You can certainly see them.
Mr. Jenner. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?
Mrs. Paine. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.
Mr. Jenner. Did you express any opinion on your part?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. On that subject?
Mrs. Paine. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.
Mr. Jenner. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?
Mrs. Paine. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.
Mr. Jenner. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Paine. My overall impression progressed through several stages.
Mr. Jenner. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.
Mrs. Paine. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.
And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.
When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.
He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.
And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.
Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I think while——
Mr. Jenner. His only human contact?
Mrs. Paine. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time——
Mr. Jenner. Of the assassination?
Mrs. Paine. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.
Mr. Jenner. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?
Mrs. Paine. Well, I recall specifically——
Mr. Jenner. And to you and your children?
Mrs. Paine. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters—no; I mentioned that to the record—came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.
Mr. Jenner. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I think I have testified that——
Mr. Jenner. Was that fairly distinct in your mind?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt successful.
As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.
Mr. Jenner. What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?
Mrs. Paine. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.
And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.
Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.
Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.
Mr. Jenner. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Understand in the sense that it might be something——
Mrs. Paine. In terms of what I saw.
Mr. Jenner. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. As a child.
I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.
Mr. Jenner. Took fewer and fewer risks?
Mrs. Paine. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.
Mr. Jenner. Or being hurt?
Mrs. Paine. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.
Mr. Jenner. Not being accepted?
Mrs. Paine. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.
Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.
But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.
I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.
Mr. Jenner. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?
Mrs. Paine. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, you were of her age, were you?
Mrs. Paine. No; I am older than she. I am 31.
Mr. Jenner. You are 31 and she is what?
Mrs. Paine. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.
Mr. Jenner. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?
Mrs. Paine. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.
Mr. Jenner. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?
Mrs. Paine. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband.
Mr. Jenner. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?
Mrs. Paine. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.
Mr. Jenner. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned—Mr. Martin?
Mrs. Paine. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have some contact with him?
Mrs. Paine. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Jenner. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.
Mrs. Paine. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.
Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?
Mrs. Paine. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.
And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.
From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.
I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.
I came—perhaps I should interrupt here.
Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are—since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.
Mr. Jenner. When I come to Irving this coming week?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?
Mrs. Paine. The morning of the 23d of November.
Mr. Jenner. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.
Mr. Jenner. Her gratitude for what?
Mrs. Paine. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.
Mr. Jenner. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.
Mr. Jenner. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."
Mr. Jenner. They don't know?
Mrs. Paine. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.
Mr. Jenner. Has she?
Mrs. Paine. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on it.
Mr. Jenner. We have that in evidence, have we?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.
Mr. Jenner. May I see it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for you.
The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.
Mr. Jenner. She said this in the note? The answer is yes?
Mrs. Paine. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.
Mr. Jenner. You did not?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?
Mrs. Paine. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all—it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.
Mr. Jenner. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?
Mrs. Paine. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, since Marina——
Mr. Jenner. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. Paine. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. This was at night?
Mrs. Paine. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me——
Mr. Jenner. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?
Mrs. Paine. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.
Mr. Jenner. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?
Mrs. Paine. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.
Mr. Jenner. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.
Mr. Jenner. She has?
Mrs. Paine. She recognized each of those things to which I referred.
Mr. Jenner. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?
Mrs. Paine. Indicated that she had received my letters.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.
Mr. Jenner. When was that?
Mrs. Paine. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.
Mr. Jenner. Of this year?
Mrs. Paine. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.
Mr. Jenner. Why did you make that inquiry?
Mrs. Paine. Why did I make that inquiry?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.
Mr. Jenner. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?
Mrs. Paine. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?
Mrs. Paine. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one——
Mr. Jenner. You mean isolated from her friends?
Mrs. Paine. All right; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from?
Mrs. Paine. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said——
Mr. Jenner. She said——
Mrs. Paine. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.
Mr. Jenner. You had learned it in the meantime?
Mrs. Paine. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.
Mr. Jenner. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?
Mrs. Paine. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.
Mr. Jenner. And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, indeed; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?
Mrs. Paine. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.
Mr. Jenner. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.
Mrs. Paine. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct break.
Mr. Jenner. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?
Mrs. Paine. I would like that if it comes about.
Mr. Jenner. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?
Mrs. Paine. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?
Mrs. Paine. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.
Mr. Jenner. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?
Mrs. Paine. On several occasions.
Mr. Jenner. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. Paine. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.
Mr. Jenner. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United States?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions that she——
Mr. Jenner. I am seeking only your impression now.
Mrs. Paine. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.
Mr. Jenner. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.
Mrs. Paine. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.
Mr. Jenner. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke—that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?
Mrs. Paine. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.
Mr. Jenner. Nothing to do with the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. None.
Mr. Jenner. February?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Pick them out according to dates.
Mrs. Paine. Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.
Mr. Jenner. All right; distinguish between them, please.
Mrs. Paine. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.
Mr. Jenner. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?
Mrs. Paine. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.
Mr. Jenner. And that was the previous year?
Mrs. Paine. She was born in 1962.
Mr. Jenner. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"
Mr. Jenner. Entered where?
Mrs. Paine. On the 22d of February, and from this——
Mr. Jenner. And you have already testified about that?
Mrs. Paine. From this I deduced that was when I first met them.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. This was written after.
Mr. Jenner. After?
Mrs. Paine. This was written indeed after the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.
Mr. Jenner. When?
Mrs. Paine. I heard it on November 23.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.
Mr. Jenner. That is to the entry I have read?
Mrs. Paine. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.
Mr. Jenner. That is you made the entry October?
Mrs. Paine. October 23 instead of November.
Mr. Jenner. It should have been November 23?
Mrs. Paine. It should have been November 23.
Mr. Jenner. And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?
Mrs. Paine. On the 20th.
Mr. Jenner. This is the square having the date March 20?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.
Mr. Jenner. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?
Mrs. Paine. Right.
Mr. Jenner. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Identify it, please, first as to date.
Mrs. Paine. And this written at the time—it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."
Mr. Jenner. You have already testified about this incident?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Any others?
Mrs. Paine. Not for the month of March.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.
Mr. Jenner. You have testified about that?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. Then there is an entrance on——
Mr. Jenner. An entry?
Mrs. Paine. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.
Mr. Jenner. You have testified about that?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.
Mr. Jenner. Entry, you mean again?
Mrs. Paine. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.
Mr. Jenner. You testified about that, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "Lee and Marina."
Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds——
Mr. Jenner. You mean theirs?
Mrs. Paine. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee Wedding Anniversary two years ago."
Mr. Jenner. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April?
Mrs. Paine. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the fall.
Mr. Jenner. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar referring to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr. Jenner. Let's take May.
Mrs. Paine. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May 1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we saw the movie War and Peace.
Mr. Jenner. About which you have testified?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. The next entry——
Mr. Jenner. The next one relating to the Oswalds.
Mrs. Paine. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. And you have testified about that entry and that event?
Mrs. Paine. I have.
Mr. Jenner. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. All right; now drop down to June, please.
Mrs. Paine. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June.
Mr. Jenner. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July.
Mrs. Paine. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the right date, and that is all.
Mr. Jenner. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Would you identify them, please?
Mrs. Paine. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans to go back to——
Mrs. Paine. And this was written shortly after that event.
Mr. Jenner. To go back to Texas?
Mrs. Paine. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." meaning New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. When was that entry made?
Mrs. Paine. These were both made after our arrival back.
Mr. Jenner. But shortly afterwards?
Mrs. Paine. Very shortly.
Mr. Jenner. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come back?
Mrs. Paine. Sure.
Mr. Jenner. It is now 1 o'clock. We will be back at 2.
Could you finish this calendar?
Mrs. Paine. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously.
Mr. Jenner. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland Hospital for the birth of her child?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."
Mr. Jenner. You had it in the wrong place initially?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And then you put it in the right place eventually?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be Parkland. I would be certain it was.
Mr. Jenner. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record?
Mrs. Paine. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance.
Mr. Jenner. How soon after the assassination did you make that corrected entry?
Mrs. Paine. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."
Mr. Jenner. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That means exactly what it says.
Mr. Jenner. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; right after.
Mr. Jenner. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas "Junie" she had a clinic appointment.
Mr. Jenner. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. Paine. The older daughter.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November.
Mrs. Paine. That is right. You asked me at some time during my testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.
Mr. Jenner. What day is this?
Mrs. Paine. On Saturday, the 2d of November.
Mr. Jenner. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?
Mrs. Paine. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he wasn't out.
Mr. Jenner. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November 1.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And do you have an entry to that effect?
Mrs. Paine. No, I did not mark that down.
Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?
Mrs. Paine. I have no clear recollection.
Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.
Mr. Jenner. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind you that she had a dental appointment?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home.
Mr. Jenner. What date is this?
Mrs. Paine. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday.
Mr. Jenner. It is a Monday. And he was at home?
Mrs. Paine. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the morning.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means.
He was at your home?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.
In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, "1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was changed.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit?
Mrs. Paine. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had X-rays taken.
Mr. Jenner. Could those double entries indicate that?
Mrs. Paine. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice.
Mr. Jenner. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times?
Mrs. Paine. It is possible.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Have you identified all three entries now?
Mrs. Paine. I have.
There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference.
There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m., Lynn Lollar."
Mr. Jenner. How do you spell Lynn?
Mrs. Paine. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which I have testified.
There is also in pencil——
Mr. Jenner. Its significance is that it took you out of the home.
Mrs. Paine. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina.
This brings us to December.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?
Mrs. Paine. That is exactly it.
Mr. Jenner. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score?
Mrs. Paine. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to.
Mr. Jenner. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?
Mrs. Paine. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family.
Mr. Jenner. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting or session, visit?
Mrs. Paine. Her husband was killed before it was time to go.
Mr. Jenner. That is, Lee Oswald was?
Mrs. Paine. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.
Mrs. Paine. I go on to December.
There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept.
There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. What do you mean "well baby"?
Mrs. Paine. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I might have skipped that.
Mr. Jenner. I think you did.
Mrs. Paine. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock."
Mr. Jenner. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child?
Mrs. Paine. June.
Mr. Jenner. June. Did that include Rachel as well?
Mrs. Paine. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks.
Mr. Jenner. That Marina should?
Mrs. Paine. No, that is the baby.
Mr. Jenner. The baby June?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the first—no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation.
Mr. Jenner. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic?
Of course, that never took place.
Mrs. Paine. I might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic.
Mr. Jenner. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the 1st of the year?
Mrs. Paine. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this just adds to that indication.
Mr. Jenner. So that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in Dallas.
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. To live with him?
Mrs. Paine. That is right.
There is a a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks".
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.
The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Just a minute.
No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.
Mr. Jenner. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on November 5, 1963——
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on December 5, 1963——
Mrs. Paine. December 3.
Mr. Jenner. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year.
Mrs. Paine. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this.
Mr. Jenner. I wish you would, on that.
Mrs. Paine. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in Irving——
Mr. Jenner. When was that?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, though they might have records of it.
Mr. Jenner. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really——
Mrs. Paine. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after the baby was born.
Mr. Jenner. And was it in the month of October?
Mrs. Paine. Probably.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in Irving.
Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I discussed where it would be best for her to have her——
Mr. Jenner. Her clinic care?
Mrs. Paine. Her association, her clinic, yes.
Mr. Jenner. And during the course of that conversation, go on——
Mrs. Paine. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to just continue in Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. Because——
Mrs. Paine. Because they would be again in Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. And that squared with your impressions at that time?
Mrs. Paine. Indeed it did.
Mr. Jenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Jenner. Return to the record.
Mrs. Paine. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go if a child is ailing.
Mr. Jenner. And who was ailing? Or possibly so?
Mrs. Paine. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building to the TB clinic.
Oh, no; I recall now why we went.
At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial Clinic.
Mr. Jenner. F-r-e-e-m-a-n?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June has—I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy.
Mr. Jenner. It was on Marina's?
Mrs. Paine. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that was done.
My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
Mr. Jenner. This was a part of the postnatal care?
Mr. Jenner. For Marina?
Mrs. Paine. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret Service. That is all.
Mr. Jenner. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them?
Mrs. Paine. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised.
Mr. Jenner. Surprised? Why?
Mrs. Paine. If they had. They had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it.
Mr. Jenner. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15.
(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)