Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the Oswalds?

The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.

Mr. Jenner. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, the left and right hand.

Mrs. Paine. These have no significance to the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the B page, left and right.

Mrs. Paine. No significance.

Mr. Jenner. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is employed?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The next page is the C page, left-hand.

Mrs. Paine. You are still on B.

Mr. Jenner. I am what?

Mrs. Paine. You are still on B.

Mr. Jenner. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the B page, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that?

Mrs. Paine. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing there related to the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mrs. Paine. Also nothing related.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first page of the E page.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing there.

Mr. Jenner. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of the E page.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the F page.

Mrs. Paine. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she did not understand me. And I heard other people—there is a book store where you can obtain materials in Russian—it imports from Russia, and had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Is this located in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. This is in New York City. And——

Mr. Jenner. You have not frequented that place before?

Mrs. Paine. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted?

Mrs. Paine. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know English fluently to get a job—if there were a Russian-speaking community, where Russian could be used. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G page.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. Jenner. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G page.

Mrs. Paine. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here.

Mr. Jenner. And her son-in-law is?

Mrs. Paine. Ilya Mamantov.

Mr. Jenner. And at the bottom of the page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing else?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing else.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing significant there.

Mr. Jenner. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to that in your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to it that it is either delivered or returned—whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned.

Mr. Jenner. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have their address.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page.

Mrs. Paine. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian student appears here, Bill Hootkins.

Mr. Jenner. And his telephone number——

Mrs. Paine. Is there; yes.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two pages—the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?

Mrs. Paine. None; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. Jenner. Next would be—there are some empty pages. We better record that fact. The reverse side——

Mrs. Paine. They are not in your exhibit.

Mr. Jenner. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit.

Mr. Jenner. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated.

Mrs. Paine. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top of the list of letters.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page in which the top letter is L.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing here.

Mr. Jenner. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. Look at both pages, please.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Murret.

Mr. Jenner. 757 French Street, New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Telephone number HU 8-4326.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. How long after? You mean while you were there?

Mrs. Paine. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer.

Mr. Jenner. It was during your visit—your second visit to New Orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. There is one above that, is there not?

Mrs. Paine. And I believe this person has been referred to in testimony—Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, summer Russian school.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is M.

Mrs. Paine. This just gives a current address for the same person—Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is N.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing significant here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter P.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for Marina.

Mr. Jenner. No other entry of significance on that page?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the page opposite that—the top letter of which is Q.

Mrs. Paine. No significance here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the page the top letter of which is R.

Mrs. Paine. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts.

Mr. Jenner. Those are your next door neighbors?

Mrs. Paine. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in testimony—that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.

Mr. Jenner. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also S. It is the opposite——

Mrs. Paine. The last one you had was facing.

Mr. Jenner. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right.

Mrs. Paine. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, would you identify the Strattons?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing else on the S page?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T.

Mrs. Paine. No significance here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that.

Mrs. Paine. No significance.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as U.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; no significance here.

Mr. Jenner. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V.

Mrs. Paine. No significance here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W.

Mrs. Paine. No significance here.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y.

Mrs. Paine. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the Youngs?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And there are three entries.

Mrs. Paine. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my relatives.

Mr. Jenner. That is a different Young entirely?

Mrs. Paine. That is.

Mr. Jenner. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles Morris—those are your in-laws?

Mrs. Paine. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young.

Mr. Jenner. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father?

Mrs. Paine. Father.

Mr. Jenner. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?

Mrs. Paine. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word I didn't understand.

She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.

She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce—to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall—I think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified to this.

I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did—I should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy.

She was in some ways—she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in Minsk—how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed.

She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say anything to you—you brought something out about Russia—about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America while she was in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. Paine. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate anything beyond that—that is, that she had a dream—did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to America?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's personality, her character, her integrity.

Mrs. Paine. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward religion as negative or positive?

Mrs. Paine. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this country?

Mrs. Paine. One of the first things I knew—and this was told to me in March of 1963—one of the first times I went to see her at their apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely.

Mr. Jenner. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always turned to this portion——

Mr. Jenner. Legitimate theater?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She turned to this portion——

Mr. Jenner. When you say town, you mean Minsk?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia originating in America, in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both—I am not certain. But she commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to November 22—let's say prior to November 23—of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was—were the references to Cuba limited to those with regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.

Mr. Jenner. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy—as a person and a woman.

Mrs. Paine. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that—as I have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.

Mr. Jenner. But you say she is an appreciative person?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was—thanked me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially—that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully convinced her.

Mr. Jenner. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?

Mrs. Paine. I think I have said the bulk of it.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you this—your view or opinion as to whether Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.

Mrs. Paine. My opinion is that she could not have been.

Mr. Jenner. She was not and could not have been?

Mrs. Paine. Was not and could not have been.

Mr. Jenner. I wish to include both—that she was not and could not have been?

Mrs. Paine. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different from being certain. I might add this. I think—things she said to me on the evening of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. Paine. After we had returned from the police station.

Mr. Jenner. You had returned to your home after being at the police station?

Mrs. Paine. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through translation from Lee, and that she thought——

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean translation?

Mrs. Paine. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such indication of dislike from Lee to her.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this impressed you why?

Mrs. Paine. I just record that she said it.

Mr. Jenner. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what—to her groping as to why her husband committed this act?

Mrs. Paine. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the same way she told me that——

Mr. Jenner. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating—how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it—or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the President?

Mrs. Paine. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of hurt.

Mr. Jenner. Hurt what?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense.

Mr. Jenner. That is, rather than defense of him?

Mrs. Paine. Of him; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing else.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in June of 1957—as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957—[See Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957—in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of Russian. Do you recall such a letter?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I wrote it.

Mr. Jenner. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?

Mrs. Paine. Socially?

Mr. Jenner. Would be socially useful to you.

Mrs. Paine. I don't understand what that meant.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke Russian, in seeking—for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?

Mrs. Paine. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in Russian exchange."

Mrs. Paine. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.

Mr. Jenner. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. And I have so testified—I used the word "calling" in the testimony.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words—intellectual decision?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.

Mr. Jenner. As you recall back now, was that—did that activate you?

Mrs. Paine. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual decision.

Mr. Jenner. I assume you meant a deliberate one.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. One of intellectual curiosity?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge so.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October 1956, that—no; this letter was to your whole family—that is, those back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and—what was—Essie?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.

Mr. Jenner. In which you then said you were thinking about studying Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you might have said then?

Mrs. Paine. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the time than I do now.

Mr. Jenner. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to know if you had any conversations with Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting interviews by the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Any conversations—have you told us all on the subject of Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.

Mr. Jenner. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. His political views?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe I have told you all.

Mr. Jenner. Any particular books in which he was interested?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know of any books.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. None that I saw him read.

Mr. Jenner. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?

Mrs. Paine. That was never mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. By either she or him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Not by either one.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted to defect——

Mrs. Paine. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first learn of that?

Mrs. Paine. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.

Mr. Jenner. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?

Mrs. Paine. Never, to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did she?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever speak or—well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Either for himself individually or for his family?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.

Mr. Jenner. I think you told us that this morning.

Mrs. Paine. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I mentioned it.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles—let us say—did you discuss the Life article with her?

Mrs. Paine. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina appeared.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?

Mrs. Paine. She thought it was misleading.

Mr. Jenner. That the article itself was misleading?

Mrs. Paine. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.

Mr. Jenner. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?

Mrs. Paine. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.

Mr. Jenner. Well, what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.

Mr. Jenner. Did she respond to that comment on your part?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall any particular thing she said.

Mr. Jenner. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us that.

Mrs. Paine. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.

Mr. Jenner. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America—one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.

Mr. Jenner. She was aware of that distinction?

Did she indicate an awareness of that?

Mrs. Paine. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?

Mrs. Paine. There isn't anything at all.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?

Mrs. Paine. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?

Mrs. Paine. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. All that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?

Mrs. Paine. I have related all my recollections.

Mr. Jenner. Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection—of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.

Mr. Jenner. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers Party.

Mrs. Paine. Nor was I aware of any such contact.

Mr. Jenner. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?

I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?

Mrs. Paine. I have heard the word used a great deal.

Mr. Jenner. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.

Mrs. Paine. I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.

But I think he did enjoy talking with other people—at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.

And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this—because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation—except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. He never mentioned anyone he knew.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.

Mr. Jenner. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score—as to whether he was a man who had—who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?

Mrs. Paine. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.

I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.

I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.

Mr. Jenner. In his presence?

Mrs. Paine. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.

Mr. Jenner. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see—fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?

Mrs. Paine. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.

Mr. Jenner. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the dignity of her husband?

Mrs. Paine. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to—I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.

Mr. Jenner. That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.

Mr. Jenner. To recall, you mean?

Mrs. Paine. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.

Mr. Jenner. Peter is the father or the son?

Mrs. Paine. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy—is that a group with which you are familiar?

Mrs. Paine. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?

Mrs. Paine. Except possibly some literature.

Mr. Jenner. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Around 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.

Mrs. Paine. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.

Mr. Jenner. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?

Mrs. Paine. No; it does not.

Mr. Jenner. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?

Mrs. Paine. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.

Mr. Jenner. But you are opposed to violence?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I consider it to be—violence to be—always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?

Mrs. Paine. There are several things I might say in reply to that.

First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.

I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not—when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.

On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.

I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet——

Mr. Jenner. Perused?

Mrs. Paine. More than that—not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.

I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears—much more than my own personal touch with the story—although this just makes more poignant my grief.

Mr. Jenner. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.

Mrs. Paine. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.

Mrs. Paine. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?

Mr. Jenner. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.

Mrs. Paine. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.

Mr. Jenner. Russian Lan., and then Trn.—216 South 20th.

Mrs. Paine. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. I assume that means Russian language——

Mrs. Paine. Training?

Mr. Jenner. Trn.

Mrs. Paine. Probably. It is not familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.

Mrs. Paine. Could it be hospitality?

Mr. Jenner. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.

Mrs. Paine. This organization is not familiar to me.

May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.

Mr. Jenner. This is Spruce.

Mrs. Paine. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did he visit on other than weekends?

Mrs. Paine. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.

Mr. Jenner. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?

Mrs. Paine. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?

Mrs. Paine. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.

And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.

I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.

Mr. Jenner. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?

Mrs. Paine. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.

I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.

Mr. Jenner. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.

Mr. Jenner. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious—anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?

Mrs. Paine. No; they made no such inquiry.

Mr. Jenner. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they would be the same.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he—when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.

Mrs. Paine. Marina testified, did you say?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect?

I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.

Mrs. Paine. On what day?

Mr. Jenner. Fourth of October 1963.

Mrs. Paine. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of October.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I said that.

Mrs. Paine. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that——

Mr. Jenner. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, at no time from October—including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?

Mrs. Paine. That he was carrying?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. My statement is correct?

Mrs. Paine. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.

Mr. Jenner. Did the subject of abortion—was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When—part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park—she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.

Mr. Jenner. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?

Mrs. Paine. Future pregnancies; yes.

Mr. Jenner. It was devoted solely to that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.

Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy—that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.

Mrs. Paine. I am of the opinion that—saying the Russian system is rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.

Mr. Jenner. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or——

Mr. Jenner. It is the antithesis of democracy?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.

Mr. Jenner. And that is abhorent to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?

Mrs. Paine. I have an aversion.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?

Mrs. Paine. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.

Mr. Jenner. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And they were very brief.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever read the Manifesto?

Mrs. Paine. The Communist Manifesto?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. That was part of the same course.

Mr. Jenner. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you did not pursue it thereafter?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital, would your answers be the same?

Mrs. Paine. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, you have not read it?

Mrs. Paine. I have not read it.

Mr. Jenner. Even in connection with a college course?

Mrs. Paine. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.

Mrs. Paine. I certainly do not.

Mr. Jenner. And quite the contrary.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what your activities—you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. What have been your activities in connection with that organization?

Mrs. Paine. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior—that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.

Mr. Jenner. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. Paine. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Jenner. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?

Mrs. Paine. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.

Mr. Jenner. With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?

Mrs. Paine. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.

Mr. Jenner. Or might be?

Mrs. Paine. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.

Mr. Jenner. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; I had not heard that name.

Mr. Jenner. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.

Mrs. Paine. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.

Mr. Jenner. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary—and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does—then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; you are.

You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar—that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?

Mrs. Paine. My vocabulary——

Mr. Jenner. I mean sentence construction.

Mrs. Paine. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language—many more mistakes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that is true of your writing—that is, when you compose a letter?

Mrs. Paine. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?

Mrs. Paine. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home—I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.

Mr. Jenner. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. How fluent was—I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?

Mrs. Paine. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.

Mr. Jenner. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?

Mrs. Paine. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read—he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading—it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary—not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.

Mr. Jenner. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?

Mrs. Paine. I gathered so.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say it in his presence?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make—and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about—I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday—his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties in that connection?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.

Mr. Jenner. And she rather than Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject——

Mrs. Paine. Of things he had told me himself?

Mr. Jenner. That is right. That emanated from him.

Mrs. Paine. I don't think of anything.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina—that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming—no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.

Mr. Jenner. Borrowed it from the State Department?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say it was unusual?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.

Mr. Jenner. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.

Mrs. Paine. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle—that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.

Mrs. Paine. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all—it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.

Mr. Jenner. Unusual in what sense?

Mrs. Paine. That most women in Russia both did work and had to financially.

Mr. Jenner. Was that—did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?

Mrs. Paine. That was the impression it left me with, yes.

She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?

Mr. Jenner. Anywhere in Russia.

Mrs. Paine. Including her family background?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.

Mr. Jenner. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job—I never did understand.

Mr. Jenner. You mean job in the sense of position?

Mrs. Paine. Position. I never did understand how responsible this was—whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever speak of her father?

Mrs. Paine. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which—which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?

Mrs. Paine. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.

Mrs. Paine. Well, she mentioned—and I think I have said so—that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters—hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference—that difference in America as compared with Russia?

Mrs. Paine. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.

Mr. Jenner. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate any reaction to that?

Mrs. Paine. She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less—for that reason, and others—there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall it.

Mr. Jenner. And her visiting him every day?

Mrs. Paine. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it—I am not sure I remember now.

Mr. Jenner. Have we exhausted you on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. I am exhausted.

Mr. Jenner. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage—not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject—as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.

Mr. Jenner. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare—is that the way you put it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to—among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.

Mr. Jenner. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now relate?

Mrs. Paine. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.

I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that—give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?

Mrs. Paine. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.

Mrs. Paine. You wish my opinion now?

It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false—but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.

Mr. Jenner. From that, you conclude what?

Mrs. Paine. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.

Mr. Jenner. What leads you to say that—it wasn't fully the case in what sense?

Mrs. Paine. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.

Mr. Jenner. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?

Mrs. Paine. And, of course, that is rationalization.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I think that is all.

Mr. Jenner. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?

Mrs. Paine. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that may be affected—of course, you must understand—by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she—there is a——

Mrs. Paine. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's—what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read—and perhaps it is not so—but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?

Mrs. Paine. That would be my opinion.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; she never did.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. That she suspected it?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely nothing.

Mr. Jenner. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you—that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained—the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.

I was very depressed by the feeling that here—not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me—and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.

And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part—that he needed help and/or confinement.

Mr. Jenner. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?

Mrs. Paine. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.

Mr. Jenner. Batista?

Mrs. Paine. Yes—which is not saying a great deal.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.

Mrs. Paine. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know as I can put a term on it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the extent of your impression as to that period—that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. It was my impression that he had been looking for work.

Mr. Jenner. And you had no other impression?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily arise?

Mrs. Paine. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she?

Mr. Jenner. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she did.

Mrs. Paine. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8.

Mr. Jenner. When did she arise?

Mrs. Paine. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment.

Mr. Jenner. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier?

Mrs. Paine. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home?

Mrs. Paine. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.

Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country?

Mrs. Paine. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she arrived.

Mr. Jenner. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?

Mrs. Paine. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately.

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attend any meetings together—that is either you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and Marina and Lee together?

Mrs. Paine. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil Liberties Union meeting.

Mr. Jenner. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you really have any common interest?

Mrs. Paine. With Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Well, any common interest with Lee—did you have any?

Mrs. Paine. No; not really.

Mr. Jenner. And any activities with him?

Mrs. Paine. Car driving teaching.

Mr. Jenner. That's about all?

Mrs. Paine. That's it.

Mr. Jenner. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us everything—I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and Marina on the other?

Mrs. Paine. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in Russian that she had—or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it.

Mrs. Paine. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children.

Mr. Jenner. But you had no common—you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No—that's right. You mean which took us to a group with other people?

Mr. Jenner. Other groups, civic activities generally.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But there was no plan or direction to those activities.

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and sources of funds?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with Marina—it would have to be on the 23d of November—about the blanket package and the gun in the package?

Mrs. Paine. On the 23d?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have one—I will put it this way. Did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the 22d of November, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. None that I recall; nor the day following, either.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is the only thing I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; the only time.

Mr. Jenner. Or use of it.

I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home or premises.

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in mind.

I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have reached the end.

You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence.

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. And you never kept any?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in Houston?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe I have already answered that—that he said he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so or not.

Mr. Jenner. He did not identify the friend?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was curious, though, about that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in Philadelphia.

Mrs. Paine. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while she was at your home?

Mrs. Paine. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.

Mr. Jenner. But you know of no other?

Mrs. Paine. I cannot think of any other.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?

Mrs. Paine. No; in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall that. $310 a month?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mrs. Paine. And he was definitely offered such a job?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I won't say it was offered—that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.

Mrs. Paine. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through—that there was not that possibility.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please relate that to me?

Mrs. Paine. I recall some reference to——

Mr. Jenner. How did it come about?

Mrs. Paine. From Lee, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. And was it at the time, or just right——

Mrs. Paine. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.

Mr. Jenner. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency—whether a public or private employment agency I don't know—but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.

Mr. Jenner. But that was——

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Of his report to you and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall his discussing it.

Mrs. Paine. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job itself.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."

(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)

It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed "Ruth."

Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. Did you prepare and transmit the original?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When did you do that?

Mrs. Paine. That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.

Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had forgotten.

Mr. Jenner. Having that——

Mrs. Paine. It sounds like a very valid description——

Mr. Jenner. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest—and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.

Mr. Jenner. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when?

Mrs. Paine. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.

Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision—I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically Russian—as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual—rather than a prompting from within.

Mr. Jenner. And when you use the expression—you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading—you mean a prompting from your—inner prompting.

Mrs. Paine. That's correct.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine—your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.

Mrs. Paine. I would think so.

Mr. Jenner. That that is your present recollection.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?

Mrs. Paine. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. About how many?

Mrs. Paine. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there was—a pocket dictionary.

Mr. Jenner. Was that an English-Russian, or just——

Mrs. Paine. Just English.

Mr. Jenner. Was that your dictionary or was it his?

Mrs. Paine. It was not mine.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know of any reason why—I will restate the question.

Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?

Mrs. Paine. I have no feeling of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?

Mrs. Paine. Except your question.

Mr. Jenner. Pardon?

Mrs. Paine. Except your question.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.

Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of—fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your home that you saw such a movie on television?

Mrs. Paine. I know I did not.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at—late one evening—at a spy movie on television.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I think German World War II variety.

Mr. Jenner. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. That is my clear recollection.

Mr. Jenner. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.

Mrs. Paine. It certainly does.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident.

Mrs. Paine. Well, there is no recollection whatever.

Mr. Jenner. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.

Mrs. Paine. Of that sort of thing.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture—her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she mention the Manner Bakery?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.

Mr. Jenner. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum Co.?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that.

Mr. Jenner. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.

Mr. Jenner. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. Paine. I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked—he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to——

Mr. Jenner. Would that be a nontoll call?

Mrs. Paine. That was a toll call.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.

Mr. Jenner. Did he speak with you on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?

Mr. Jenner. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did come.

Mr. Jenner. And when did he come?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that he asked to come—that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he—and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.

My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.

Mr. Jenner. All right. And how long did he stay?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Did he visit with both you and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And were arrangements made for his return on another occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.

Mr. Jenner. And was this strictly a social call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Jenner. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.

Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I wish you would—how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it—all you knew about it up to and including November 22.

Mrs. Paine. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including November 22.

Mr. Jenner. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.

Mr. Jenner. This was after November 22?

Mrs. Paine. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small—that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.

I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only—Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word—that it said "This key"—using the word "key" rather than the Russian word—and went on to say it was for a post office box. And that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said——

Mr. Jenner. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that—I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.

We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze—this in Russian—saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.

Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.

I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.

Mr. Jenner. And some few small articles were purchased?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you arrived home when—about noon?

Mrs. Paine. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once.

Mr. Jenner. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did he look at television?

Mrs. Paine. My guess is that he certainly looked at television.

Mr. Jenner. Did you leave your home late that afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?

Mrs. Paine. No, we did not stop at a car dealers.

Mr. Jenner. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?

Mrs. Paine. I think he could not have been.

Mr. Jenner. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?

Mrs. Paine. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.

Mrs. Paine. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, please.

Mrs. Paine. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. That is Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City—I will add to that testimony here—I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.

Mr. Jenner. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And——

Mrs. Paine. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.

Mr. Jenner. You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it?

Mrs. Paine. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And that was out in the open.

Mrs. Paine. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?

Mrs. Paine. Two of them.

Mr. Jenner. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?

Mrs. Paine. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop.

Mr. Jenner. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At his quarters?

Mrs. Paine. No; I meant the place of work.

Mr. Jenner. At Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.

Mrs. Paine. That's my opinion.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.

Mrs. Paine. I was certainly not conscious of it.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., residing or staying as a guest in your home?

Mrs. Paine. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?

Mrs. Paine. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East—this was before I had plans to—definite plans to teach for the summer.

She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.

After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.

Mr. Jenner. And you so told her?

Mrs. Paine. And I told her so, after she had written a letter.

Mr. Jenner. And that letter of hers is in evidence?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this letter.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit 415?

Mrs. Paine. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful.

On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our appreciation.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I am very glad to be of help.

Mr. Jenner. We have no further questions as of this time.

Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.

Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.

Mrs. Paine. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.

Mrs. Paine. Monday morning. So realizing—while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

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