TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED
The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. Jenner. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on Saturday.
Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear you?
Mrs. Paine. You may affirm me.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. Paine. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.
Mr. Jenner. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.
We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window.
Mrs. Paine. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of it—it's around 43 inches wide.
Mr. Jenner. Shall we measure it, then?
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements discussed.)
Mr. Jenner. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is—why don't you recite it, Mr. Howlett?
Agent Howlett. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches high.
Mr. Jenner. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches high?
Agent Howlett. Right.
Mrs. Paine. That's not very wide is it—39 inches?
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence?
Mrs. Paine. I'll do my best.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)
Mr. Jenner. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment?
Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now see Mr. Howlett's car.
Mr. Jenner. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.
Mrs. Paine. Street.
Mr. Jenner. On Fifth Street.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large—what is that, an elm or oak?
Mr. Jenner. An oak tree—I would say about 26 inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know—I guess it is a two-door.
Mr. Jenner. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home.
Mrs. Paine. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home that's not now used.
Mr. Jenner. The house is not occupied—that home?
Mrs. Paine. It has not been occupied for over a year.
Mr. Jenner. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.
It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you last fall?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the Paine premises?
Mrs. Paine. I would like to put my children to bed now.
Mr. Jenner. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.
It is impossible—at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.
Agent Howlett. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. Jenner. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?
Agent Howlett. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers.
Mr. Jenner. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers?
Agent Howlett. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.
Mr. Jenner. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.
(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on Fifth Street?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; you were accurate.
Mr. Jenner. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for a second time to interview you?
Mrs. Paine. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that day—yes.
Mr. Jenner. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st of November?
Mr. Jenner. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?
Mrs. Paine. I'm trying to think what else was going on.
Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.
Mrs. Paine. My best estimate—it was afternoon.
Mr. Jenner. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was during the day.
Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?
Mrs. Paine. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm not sure—absolutely certain of that.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, was it Agent Hosty?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.
Mr. Jenner. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?
Mrs. Paine. Well, just barely across the threshold.
Mr. Jenner. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?
Mrs. Paine. No; they did not.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ascertain that license number?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. Did you make any attempt to do so?
Mrs. Paine. No; I made no attempt to.
Mr. Jenner. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?
Mrs. Paine. She was in my home.
Mr. Jenner. When they arrived, where was she in your home?
Mrs. Paine. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.
Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the FBI automobile?
Mrs. Paine. Nothing was said that might indicate that.
Mr. Jenner. Or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?
Mrs. Paine. Nothing at all.
Mr. Jenner. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you?
Mrs. Paine. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me——
Mr. Jenner. You had noticed that at the time?
Mrs. Paine. I had noticed that.
Mr. Jenner. And how did that come to your attention?
Mrs. Paine. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits.
Mr. Jenner. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street?
Mrs. Paine. The first time.
Mr. Jenner. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And her home is next door to the west?
Mrs. Paine. That's right—2519.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?
Mrs. Paine. How did we use the term?
Mr. Jenner. You said he said he parked down the street.
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall exactly whether it was down—my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the Ponders used to live in.
Mr. Jenner. The whom?
Mrs. Paine. The Ponders.
Mr. Jenner. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]?
Mrs. Paine. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]—Ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, that's east.
Mrs. Paine. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and whatever it is—you know, Westbrook.
Mr. Jenner. Is that the crossroad?
Mrs. Paine. In other words—yes—it's directly diagonal from the Randles.
Mr. Jenner. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from your home?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her.
Mr. Jenner. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that day—November 1st?
Mrs. Paine. I believe I did—yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away?
Mrs. Paine. There was only one the first time.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mrs. Paine. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I did.
Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina on that occasion?
Mrs. Paine. She was in the living room with me.
Mr. Jenner. Was she beside you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Were you both looking out the window?
Mrs. Paine. To the best I can recall.
Mr. Jenner. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November 1st?
Mrs. Paine. Not with 20-40 vision.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have 20-40 vision?
Mrs. Paine. It's 20-40 or 20-50—I forget.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with 20-20 vision?
Mrs. Paine. I don't have an opinion.
Mr. Jenner. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall at all.
Mr. Jenner. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?
Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that I had already taken my attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did not notice whether he passed in front of the house.
Mr. Jenner. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. And seek to ascertain the number?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Marina did?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she could have?
Mrs. Paine. That's possible—she might have if one can see that with normal vision.
Mr. Jenner. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did—you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.
Mr. Jenner. And what was your impression, if you had any?
Mrs. Paine. I have none.
Mr. Jenner. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?
Mr. Jenner. Were you thinking of them on the fifth?
Mrs. Paine. No; I wasn't.
Mr. Jenner. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I notice you have a bathtub shower?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?
Mrs. Paine. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before dinner.
Mr. Jenner. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall his having done so.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?
Mrs. Paine. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.
Mr. Jenner. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Am I correct?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?
Mrs. Paine. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.
Mr. Jenner. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that—whether you could hear it.
Mrs. Paine. I would certainly hear it.
Mr. Jenner. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr. Jenner. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs. Paine. I made no notice such as that.
Mr. Jenner. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?
Mrs. Paine. No; I can't say as it is.
Mr. Jenner. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?
Mrs. Paine. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.
The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Directly in front of us—I am standing right behind you—on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And that door opens onto what?
Mrs. Paine. It goes into the garage.
Mr. Jenner. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.
Agent Howlett. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside jamb.
Mr. Jenner. So that the space west——
Mrs. Paine. That's east, I'm sorry.
Mr. Jenner. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage—by the way, how wide is that?
Agent Howlett. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.
Mr. Jenner. And how high?
Agent Howlett. It is 6 feet 8½ inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?
Mrs. Paine. It lights the light in the dining area.
Mr. Jenner. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?
Mrs. Paine. I would expect so.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that it did?
Mrs. Paine. I don't specifically recall—I recall the shot which included that area.
Mr. Jenner. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.
Agent Howlett. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.
Mr. Jenner. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?
Agent Howlett. It is actually about 6¾ inches to the center of the light switch.
Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. Paine. The outside garage door—the large one?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mrs. Paine. It is closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. Jenner. And the door that is leading into the garage?
Mrs. Paine. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr. Jenner. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I arrived?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is.
Mr. Jenner. And would you snap it on?
Mrs. Paine. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)
Mr. Jenner. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?
Agent Howlett. It is also 4 feet 6 inches.
Mr. Jenner. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?
Agent Howlett. Six and one-half inches.
Mr. Jenner. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?
Agent Howlett. Right.
Mr. Jenner. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach—it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?
Agent Howlett. It is 21 feet 8 inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, let's get it across.
Agent Howlett. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Agent Howlett. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And it is how many feet and inches deep?
Agent Howlett. Three feet one inch deep.
Mr. Jenner. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.
Mr. Jenner. And I judge—well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?
Agent Howlett. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.
Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I suppose so.
Mr. Jenner. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom—well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for—my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November—in there in the storeroom.
Mr. Jenner. All right, that's an interesting development. When you hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?
Mrs. Paine. I think I would have noticed it.
Mr. Jenner. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.
Mr. Jenner. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?
Mrs. Paine. I surely would have.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. And, John Joe, what is that—2 feet by 2 feet?
Agent Howlett. Roughly—yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall its ever having had a cover.
Mr. Jenner. And did you have occasion——
Mrs. Paine. There was a fan in it for a while—is there now?
Agent Howlett. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.
Mrs. Paine. It has been more recently moved over.
Agent Howlett. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.
Mr. Jenner. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection it was—yes.
Mr. Jenner. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr. Jenner. Which you can push up and slide over easily?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Are you able to do it yourself?
Mrs. Paine. I never have.
Mr. Jenner. So, you don't know its heft or weight?
Mrs. Paine. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.
Mr. Jenner. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?
Mrs. Paine. It's a portable fan.
Mr. Jenner. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection one way or the other?
Mrs. Paine. None.
Mr. Jenner. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?
Mrs. Paine. It could have been.
Mr. Jenner. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?
Mrs. Paine. I did not see anyone do that.
Mr. Jenner. I am only asking while you were present—while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection they did.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot—and the two places—that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?
Mrs. Paine. All right.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
The blanket was lying approximately here from about here—in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.
Mr. Jenner. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk—is that a child's desk?
Mrs. Paine. No; a student desk.
Mr. Jenner. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?
Mrs. Paine. That's an ice chest.
Mr. Jenner. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also—are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. They are in the same position.
Mr. Jenner. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. A little fuller.
Mr. Jenner. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.
Agent Howlett. It's 7 feet 9 inches.
Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.
There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands—it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment—metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?
Agent Howlett. One foot five inches.
Mr. Jenner. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.
The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?
Agent Howlett. Two feet eight inches.
Mr. Jenner. Would you measure off 45 inches on that—we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. Paine. That's it.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. Jenner. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. No; that's the second time—it's where it was on November 22.
Mr. Jenner. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?
Agent Howlett. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.
Mr. Jenner. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. As I recall—yes.
Mr. Jenner. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?
Agent Howlett. One foot eight inches.
Mr. Jenner. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.
Mr. Jenner. But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?
Agent Howlett. The center of it is about 3½ inches.
Mr. Jenner. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.
Mrs. Paine. I'll place it where—where the outside edge is—where the outside edge of the package was.
Agent Howlett. The inside edge?
Mr. Jenner. Which do you say is inside?
Mrs. Paine. Let me take more packages—I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?
Mr. Jenner. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?
Mrs. Paine. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.
Mr. Jenner. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?
Agent Howlett. Four and one-half inches.
Mr. Jenner. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?
Agent Howlett. One foot two and one-half inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?
Mrs. Paine. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position—I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you have now located it as where you saw it—it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.
Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is—I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. Jenner. And it is a Craftsman saw—it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?
Agent Howlett. Three feet four inches.
Mr. Jenner. And how wide?
Agent Howlett. One foot nine and one-half inches.
Mr. Jenner. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?
Agent Howlett. The saw table is 3 feet 2½ inches.
Mr. Jenner. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?
Agent Howlett. It is 4 feet 7 inches.
Mr. Jenner. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?
Agent Howlett. It is 2 feet 7½ inches.
Mr. Jenner. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?
Agent Howlett. It is 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate—take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?
Mrs. Paine. I don't think there is any point in my doing that—I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.
Mr. Jenner. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?
Mrs. Paine. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I will locate the things you have described.
The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.
Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier—the first time?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part—it was.
Mr. Jenner. The witness has mentioned two—what do you call those?
Mrs. Paine. Chest of drawers.
Mr. Jenner. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?
Agent Howlett. Two feet one inch.
Mr. Jenner. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?
Agent Howlett. Two feet five inches.
Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?
Mrs. Paine. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.
Mr. Jenner. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs. Paine. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor.
Mr. Jenner. Locate it the best you can.
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You think perhaps, around in four places?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?
Mrs. Paine. It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.
Mr. Jenner. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."
(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?
Agent Howlett. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. It would be utterly impossible.
Mr. Jenner. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs. Paine. That's right?
Mr. Jenner. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?
Mrs. Paine. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. I would guess it had been myself.
Mr. Jenner. Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?
Mrs. Paine. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr. Jenner. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
Mrs. Paine. Marina followed. They had asked to search—I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.
Mr. Jenner. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?
(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)
Mr. Jenner. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?
Mrs. Paine. Two or three.
Mr. Jenner. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And for what purpose?
Mrs. Paine. To see what was in it.
Mr. Jenner. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?
Mrs. Paine. That's south instead of east.
Mr. Jenner. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that——
Mrs. Paine [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.
Mr. Jenner. All right. You got about what—halfway into the garage facing south?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Then, what happened?
Mrs. Paine. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."
Mr. Jenner. This was in the presence of Marina?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you were then—at that point you were standing where?
Mrs. Paine. I was at that time standing here [indicating].
Mr. Jenner. And would you remain there—Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the—southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs. Paine. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the——
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?
Mrs. Paine. Right here in the middle of this——
Mr. Jenner. I'll get that out of your way——
Mrs. Paine. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.
Mr. Jenner. She was facing you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, she was.
Mr. Jenner. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. She was standing there facing and looking at you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; she was.
Mr. Jenner. And you in turn—your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And you were facing north?
Mrs. Paine. Yes—I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"—she had seen some time previously—seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.
Mr. Jenner. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?
Mrs. Paine. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.
Mr. Jenner. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto?
Mrs. Paine. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.
Mr. Jenner. The wrapped package?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said.
Mr. Jenner. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?
Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me there was something hard in it.
Mr. Jenner. At that time when you stepped on it?
Mrs. Paine. At that time.
Mr. Jenner. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?
Mrs. Paine. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.
Mr. Jenner. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal?
Mrs. Paine. It wilted.
Mr. Jenner. It drooped?
Mrs. Paine. It folded.
Mr. Jenner. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. In the blanket?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?
Mrs. Paine. That's my recollection.
Mr. Jenner. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?
Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Where do you normally keep it?
Mrs. Paine. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.
Mr. Jenner. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr. Jenner. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.
Mr. Jenner. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?
Mrs. Paine. I purchased the rolls at some dime store.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?
Agent Howlett. It is 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of this?
Mrs. Paine. Take all you want.
Mr. Jenner. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?
Agent Howlett. Two feet 6 inches.
Mr. Jenner. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.
Agent Howlett. That is 3 feet 1 inch.
Mr. Jenner. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)
Mr. Jenner. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?
(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs. Paine. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr. Jenner. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. From where did you obtain that?
Mrs. Paine. From the same bottom drawer.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr. Jenner. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Off the record.
Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?
(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package—the string was white string and not the dark brown string?
Mrs. Paine. That's my recollection.
Mr. Jenner. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. Paine. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."
(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. You also have something that is really rope in your hand now. Did you obtain that from that drawer?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?
Mrs. Paine. I would say it is heavier; yes.
Mr. Jenner. All right, we will not bother with that in the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.
Mrs. Paine. That's right—having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.
Mr. Jenner. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary—the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?
Mrs. Paine. No; it is not.
Mr. Jenner. Where is that desk secretary located?
Mrs. Paine. That desk secretary is in the living room.
Mr. Jenner. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?
Mrs. Paine. No; it is not.
Mr. Jenner. Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?
Mrs. Paine. It was in the middle of the space between the—the middle of the north wall of the living room.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position?
Mrs. Paine. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary.
Mr. Jenner. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day—on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?
Mrs. Paine. It was then where it is now.
Mr. Jenner. And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?
Mrs. Paine. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.
Mr. Jenner. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?
Mrs. Paine. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November—that same day that I read the note.
Mr. Jenner. That was a Sunday?
Mrs. Paine. That was.
Mr. Jenner. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?
Mrs. Paine. I opened the flip front and put it in there.
Mr. Jenner. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out—facing toward Fifth Street?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?
Mrs. Paine. They were not closed.
Mr. Jenner. They were not closed?
Mrs. Paine. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side.
Mr. Jenner. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?
Mrs. Paine. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.
Mr. Jenner. Why not?
Mrs. Paine. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and Marina was to the west.
Mr. Jenner. She was to your right?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And you say you could not have seen them?
Mrs. Paine. Well, there were several times—I don't——
Mr. Jenner. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?
Mrs. Paine. No; I had not.
Mr. Jenner. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]—because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?
Mrs. Paine. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.
Mr. Jenner. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed——
Mrs. Paine. As it was.
Mr. Jenner. The door opening onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. Paine. The door was closed.
Mr. Jenner. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?
Agent Howlett. No.
Mr. Jenner. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?
Mrs. Paine. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened the door.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.
(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. Jenner. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?
Mrs. Paine. All right.
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. Jenner. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?
Agent Howlett. There is no sidewalk—there is a curb.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is.
Agent Howlett. 42 feet.
Mr. Jenner. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?
The Reporter. I have it in the record from his statement—42 feet.
Mr. Jenner. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?
Agent Howlett. It would be 11 feet.
Mr. Jenner. And it is how wide from east to west?
Agent Howlett. Seven feet three inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?
Mrs. Paine. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And unobstructed except for the tree?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?
Mrs. Paine. From the east.
Mr. Jenner. From the east and so you were driving west?
Mrs. Paine. I was.
Mr. Jenner. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?
Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block—that's across Westbrook.
Mr. Jenner. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And that's how far?
Mrs. Paine. Three houses down.
Mr. Jenner. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. But she was not out on the lawn?
Mrs. Paine. She was not out on the lawn.
Mr. Jenner. You pulled up in the driveway?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)
Mr. Jenner. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung—you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway?
Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr. Jenner. And did he come over to your automobile?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. Did you greet him in any fashion?
Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.
Mr. Jenner. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?
Mrs. Paine. I did not express it.
Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?
Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.
Mr. Jenner. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?
Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.
Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?
Mrs. Paine. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.
Mr. Jenner. Apology for what?
Mrs. Paine. For his having come without asking if he could.
Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?
Mrs. Paine. My impression is she was surprised.
Mr. Jenner. Did she say so?
Mrs. Paine. Not specifically.
Mr. Jenner. Did she say she had not expected him?
Mrs. Paine. That's the feeling I gathered.
Mr. Jenner. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude—you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. As well as yours?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening—you don't know how many times—you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not?
Mrs. Paine. It's a deep freeze.
Mr. Jenner. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?
Agent Howlett. Three feet four inches.
Mr. Jenner. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?
Agent Howlett. Correct.
Mr. Jenner. And the deep freeze is how deep?
Agent Howlett. It is two feet six inches deep.
Mr. Jenner. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct?
Agent Howlett. Yes; to the wall.
Mr. Jenner. And how high is the deep freeze?
Agent Howlett. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.
Mr. Jenner. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?
Agent Howlett. That's right.
Mrs. Paine. It is known as a chest style.
Mr. Jenner. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is—since it is so much your habit—you can't remember the number of times—it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?
Mrs. Paine. I think it highly probable.
Mr. Jenner. Did you prepare the meal that evening?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What did you do?
Mrs. Paine. I lacquered two large box blocks.
Mr. Jenner. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?
Mrs. Paine. This is one.
Mr. Jenner. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?
Mrs. Paine. It's the same thing, yes.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?
Mrs. Paine. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. They are what I call a large hollow block.
Mr. Jenner. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?
Mrs. Paine. That's all right. I describe them as—they are sets—anything a child wishes to make it into for play.
Mr. Jenner. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not?
Mr. Jenner. And the other is empty?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes as a block and which I describe as a box?
Agent Howlett. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long.
Mr. Jenner. How deep?
Agent Howlett. It is 7½ inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.
Mr. Jenner. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call a box, rectangular—it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it—the opposite side—is that not correct?
Agent Howlett. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five sides and open on the top.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?
Mrs. Paine. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.
Mr. Jenner. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?
Mrs. Paine. That's quite all right—I will call it a box.
Mr. Jenner. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening?
Mrs. Paine. That evening.
Mr. Jenner. How long did that take you?
Mrs. Paine. About half an hour.
Mr. Jenner. And where were you working?
Mrs. Paine. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush.
Mr. Jenner. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?
Mrs. Paine. The north end.
Mr. Jenner. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the evening, am I correct?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. Jenner. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?
Mrs. Paine. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.
Mr. Jenner. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them?
Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage.
Mr. Jenner. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer?
Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?
Mrs. Paine. No; it's very likely it was in the central area.
Mr. Jenner. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. Paine. Somewhat near the saw.
Mr. Jenner. The circular saw or the band saw?
Mrs. Paine. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage——
Mrs. Paine. You mean the overhead door?
Mr. Jenner. No; the regular door into the garage.
Mrs. Paine. Oh—that—yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door to the garage is normally—you are careful to keep it closed?
Mrs. Paine. I am, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, it was.
Mr. Jenner. You opened the door, did you?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything?
Mrs. Paine. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.
Mr. Jenner. The light where?
Mrs. Paine. In the garage.
Mr. Jenner. The overhead light?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, I believe it is.
Agent Howlett. It may be slightly to the center.
Mr. Jenner. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Jenner. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?
Agent Howlett. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.
Mr. Jenner. And it is quite bright, is it not?
Agent Howlett. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.
Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You noticed that the light was on?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Why was that something that drew your attention?
Mrs. Paine. I knew that I had not left it on.
Mr. Jenner. Had you had any habit in that respect?
Mrs. Paine. It's my habit to turn the light off.
Mr. Jenner. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, more appearance than frugality.
Mr. Jenner. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?
Mrs. Paine. I would suppose so.
Mr. Jenner. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?
Mrs. Paine. That's right—it was definitely not Marina at that time.
Mr. Jenner. But it was who—had left the light on?
Mrs. Paine. That Lee had left the light on.
Mr. Jenner. From that, you concluded that he had what?
Mrs. Paine. Been in the garage.
Mr. Jenner. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.
Mr. Jenner. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your kitchen—dining room space—even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. Paine. I would think so.
Mr. Jenner. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. Paine. That would be unquestionably true—if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all.
Mr. Jenner. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to 9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, I would say.
Mr. Jenner. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, they were.
Mr. Jenner. Had you put them to bed that evening?
Mrs. Paine. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed preparations.
Mr. Jenner. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it?
Mrs. Paine. I think it's likely—it would have been likely that I would know it then too.
Mr. Jenner. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you necessarily have known it—that's the point I am making.
Mrs. Paine. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room.
Mr. Jenner. Moving in and out?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the Commission—were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?
Mrs. Paine. It is my—I recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. Most of what they took I did not see.
Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, "Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on Beckley Street in Dallas.
Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be.
The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to November 22, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see anything that I had seen or have since seen.
Mr. Jenner. You have looked only on page 144.
Mrs. Paine. Yes; I am sorry.
Mr. Jenner. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything.
Mrs. Paine. This is mine.
Mr. Jenner. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. It is a publication to which you subscribe?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; anyway, I receive it.
Mr. Jenner. And "Friends" mentioned there is what?
Mrs. Paine. There it refers to Quakers.
Mr. Jenner. The Quakers of your faith?
Mrs. Paine. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, from the description—it is microfilm 198.
Mr. Jenner. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?
Mrs. Paine. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.
Mr. Jenner. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?
Mrs. Paine. That's right—I can't tell.
Mr. Jenner. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out—you have picked out?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home?
Mrs. Paine. I'm quite certain I did not see—well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.
"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.
Mr. Jenner. Well, you can't tell from that description?
Mrs. Paine. I can't tell from that—perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what I recall having seen.
Mr. Jenner. What do you recall having seen?
Mrs. Paine. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.
Mr. Jenner. Yes, it is—just a moment.
Let's go off the record here for a moment.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)
Mr. Jenner. I guess you are right—that was just a wrapper.
Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.
Literature
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.
Mrs. Paine. Yes—as you recall.
Mr. Jenner. You said you would leave that package in precisely the place—wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?
Mrs. Paine. I have not touched it.
Mr. Jenner. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mrs. Paine. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of the north edge of the workbench.
Mr. Jenner. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?
Mrs. Paine. You would do well to look at them both.
Mr. Jenner. Well, what I am going to do first—I'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind?
Mrs. Paine. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian blinds.
Mr. Jenner. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about 6½ inches high and about 6½ inches through.
While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular.
Agent Howlett. That is 2 feet 11 inches.
Mr. Jenner. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance?
Agent Howlett. Seven feet and three inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, measure the height of the package.
Mrs. Paine. While you are up there, measure the one behind you.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; we will.
Agent Howlett. The height of the package is about seven inches.
Mr. Jenner. And it is how thick through from east to west?
Agent Howlett. Seven inches.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.
The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?
Mrs. Paine. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr. Jenner. And they are of the metal variety, are they not?
Mrs. Paine. They are.
Mr. Jenner. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper?
Mrs. Paine. This must have come around a package or something I had bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.
Mr. Jenner. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her package back the way it was?
Mrs. Paine. Yes—for the record.
Mr. Jenner. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call—M. R. Paine."
Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified—is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance?
Mrs. Paine. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but that—I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came in this package, I have no idea whatever.
Mr. Jenner. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home?
Mrs. Paine. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper.
Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?
Mrs. Paine. As you said, yes.
Mr. Jenner. This paper—when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on—in light-tan wrapping paper—at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is also on the shelf.
Agent Howlett. The same shelf in behind where the other package was.
Mr. Jenner. And it is how long?
Agent Howlett. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now.
Mr. Jenner. And in general is it a rectangular package?
Agent Howlett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described?
Agent Howlett. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north end.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?
Mrs. Paine. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. Jenner. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds?
Mrs. Paine. No; I do not. I mean roll-type.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.
(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. Jenner. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.
Mrs. Paine. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how wide?
Agent Howlett. Two feet six inches.
Mr. Jenner. And the other one is?
Agent Howlett. Three feet six inches.
Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. And they are opaque?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. Neither is metal?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. The spring to which the shade itself—the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. 4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that shelf?
Mrs. Paine. No.
Mr. Jenner. It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?
Mrs. Paine. Well, I testified that.
Mr. Jenner. That was your impression, was it not?
Mrs. Paine. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.
Mr. Jenner. You, of course—you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is.
Mr. Jenner. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?
Agent Howlett. About 10½ inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?
Mrs. Paine. That's correct.
Mr. Jenner. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?
Agent Howlett. Yes, sir; that's correct.
Mr. Jenner. Painted or enameled white?
Agent Howlett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett—how many do you have there?
Agent Howlett. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?
While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.
Mrs. Paine. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.
Agent Howlett. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are.
Mr. Jenner. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?
Mrs. Paine. No; I do not.
Mr. Jenner. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. Paine. None whatsoever.
Mr. Jenner. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record?
Mrs. Paine. All right.
Mr. Jenner. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.
(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very light weight—what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin—heavy tin?
Agent Howlett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are——
Agent Howlett. The white one is 2 feet 3½ inches.
Mr. Jenner. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion?
Agent Howlett. It is 2 feet 3½ inches.
Mr. Jenner. These curtain rods—the ends of each of them are turned. Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?
Agent Howlett. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain rod.
Mr. Jenner. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one?
Agent Howlett. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about 2-3/8 inches.
Mr. Jenner. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," do they not, a long "U"?
Agent Howlett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. Paine. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me?
Mrs. Paine. I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?
Mrs. Paine. I appear only to have the translation.
Mr. Jenner. You appear only to have the translation—will you explain that remark?
Mrs. Paine. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one Christmas card from Marina.
Mr. Jenner. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?
Mrs. Paine. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote—I appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation for several of these—I made a translation at the time and sent them off.
Mr. Jenner. At the time you prepared the originals?
Mrs. Paine. That's right.
Mr. Jenner. May I have the translations?
Mrs. Paine. Yes; you may.