EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
| Page | |
| Allen Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [472] |
| 2 | [472] |
| 3 | [472] |
| 4 | [472] |
| 5 | [472] |
| 6 | [472] |
| 7 | [472] |
| 8 | [472] |
| 9 | [472] |
| 10 | [472] |
| 11 | [472] |
| 12 | [472] |
| 13 | [472] |
| 14 | [472] |
| 15 | [472] |
| Anderson Exhibit No. 1 | [303] |
| Brown Exhibit No. 1 | [470] |
| Burcham Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [473] |
| 2 | [473] |
| 3 | [473] |
| Creel Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [477] |
| 2 | [477] |
| 3 | [477] |
| 4 | [477] |
| 5 | [477] |
| 6 | [477] |
| 7 | [477] |
| 8 | [477] |
| Cunningham Exhibit No. 4 | [477] |
| Gangl Exhibit No. 1 | [479] |
| Graves Exhibit No. 1 | [479] |
| Gray Exhibit No. 1 | [210] |
| Greener Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [246] |
| 2 | [247] |
| 3 | [251] |
| 4 | [251] |
| Hunley Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [476] |
| 2 | [476] |
| 3 | [476] |
| 4 | [476] |
| 5 | [476] |
| 6 | [476] |
| 7 | [476] |
| James Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [181] |
| 2 | [186] |
| 3 | [187] |
| 3-A | [187] |
| 4 | [188] |
| 5 | [188] |
| 6 | [189] |
| 7 | [189] |
| 8 | [189] |
| 9 | [189] |
| 10 | [190] |
| 11 | [190] |
| Johnson Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [442] |
| 2 | [442] |
| 3 | [443] |
| 4 | [443] |
| 5 | [443] |
| 6 | [443] |
| Kramer Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [212] |
| 2 | [213] |
| Lee Exhibit: | |
| A | [482] |
| B | [482] |
| Lewis Exhibit No. 1 | [323] |
| Murret Exhibit No. 1 | [472] |
| Odio Exhibit No. 1 | [373] |
| Odum Exhibit No. 1 | [468] |
| Pena Exhibit No. 1 | [359] |
| Pic Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [5] |
| 2 | [13] |
| 2-A | [15] |
| 3 | [14] |
| 4 | [15] |
| 5 | [15] |
| 6 | [66] |
| 6-A | [66] |
| 7 | [66] |
| 7-A | [66] |
| 8 | [66] |
| 8-A | [66] |
| 9 | [66] |
| 9-A | [66] |
| 10 | [66] |
| 10-A | [66] |
| 10-B | [66] |
| 11 | [66] |
| 11-A | [66] |
| 12 | [66] |
| 12-A | [66] |
| 13 | [66] |
| 13-A | [66] |
| 14 | [66] |
| 15 | [66] |
| 16 | [66] |
| 16-A | [66] |
| 17 | [66] |
| 17-A | [66] |
| 18 | [66] |
| 18-A | [66] |
| 19 | [66] |
| 19-A | [66] |
| 20 | [66] |
| 20-A | [66] |
| 20-B | [66] |
| 21 | [67] |
| 21-A | [67] |
| 22 | [67] |
| 23 | [67] |
| 23-A | [67] |
| 24 | [67] |
| 24-A | [67] |
| 25 | [67] |
| 25-A | [67] |
| 26 | [67] |
| 26-A | [67] |
| 27 | [69] |
| 27-A | [69] |
| 27-B | [69] |
| 28-A | [69] |
| 28-B | [69] |
| 29-A | [69] |
| 29-B | [69] |
| 29-C | [69] |
| 30-A | [69] |
| 30-B | [69] |
| 31-A | [69] |
| 31-B | [69] |
| 32-A | [69] |
| 32-B | [70] |
| 33-A | [70] |
| 33-B | [70] |
| 34 | [70] |
| 35-A | [70] |
| 35-B | [70] |
| 36-A | [70] |
| 36-B | [70] |
| 37-A | [71] |
| 37-B | [71] |
| 38-A | [71] |
| 38-B | [71] |
| 39-A | [71] |
| 39-B | [71] |
| 40-A | [71] |
| 40-B | [71] |
| 41-A | [71] |
| 41-B | [71] |
| 42-A | [71] |
| 42-B | [71] |
| 43-A | [71] |
| 43-B | [71] |
| 44-A | [71] |
| 44-B | [71] |
| 45-A | [71] |
| 45-B | [71] |
| 46-A | [71] |
| 46-B | [71] |
| 47-A | [71] |
| 47-B | [71] |
| 48 | [35] |
| 49 | [35] |
| 50 | [29] |
| 51 | [29] |
| 52 | [28] |
| 53 | [28] |
| 54 | [30] |
| 55 | [30] |
| 56 | [36] |
| 57 | [36] |
| 58 | [36] |
| 59 | [35] |
| 60 | [60] |
| Rachal Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [475] |
| 2 | [476] |
| 3 | [476] |
| Rogers Exhibit No. 1 | [463] |
| Seeley Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [195] |
| 2 | [196] |
| 3 | [198] |
| 4 | [199] |
| 5 | [199] |
| 6 | [200] |
| 7 | [201] |
| Smith Exhibit No. 1 | [474] |
| Staples Exhibit No. 1 | [210] |
| Stuckey Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [161] |
| 2 | [163] |
| 3 | [169] |
| 4 | [177] |
| Thornley Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [112] |
| 2 | [113] |
| 3 | [114] |
| Twiford Exhibit No. 1 | [179] |
| Walker Exhibit No.: | |
| 1 | [408] |
| 2 | [409] |
| 3 | [411] |
| 4 | [411] |
| Weinstock Exhibit No. 1 | [207] |
| Weissman Exhibit No. 1 | [429] |
Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC
The testimony of John Edward Pic was taken at 10:25 a.m., on May 15, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. John Hart Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. Jenner. Sergeant Pic, do you swear in your testimony you are about to give that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. Pic. Yes; I do.
Mr. Jenner. State your full name, please.
Mr. Pic. Staff Sergeant John Edward Pic, sir, U.S. Air Force.
Mr. Jenner. And that Pic is spelled P-i-c-?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Give me your home address.
Mr. Pic. 7306 Westville, San Antonio, Tex.
Mr. Jenner. You are a married man?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born.
Mr. Pic. My wife's maiden name is Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman. My eldest is John Edward Pic, Jr., 14 May, 1952. My daughter, Janet Ann Pic, 18 October 1954; James Michael Pic, 22 February 1960.
Mr. Jenner. Your wife Margaret is—she was born where?
Mr. Pic. New York City, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Her parents are native Americans as well as she?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; they are not.
Mr. Jenner. What do you know of them?
Mr. Pic. Her father died; I never met the man while we were going together. Her mother and father were separated. Her mother was born in Hungary, I think. Her father was also, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What do you understand as to when they came to this country?
Mr. Pic. I have never inquired. It has probably been mentioned but I have forgotten.
Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression they had been here a good many years?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; they have seven children. The eldest being in her forties, I am pretty sure.
Mr. Jenner. I see. When you met your wife she was living with her mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Where?
Mr. Pic. 325 East 92d Street, New York City.
Mr. Jenner. And you were at that time in the service?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; U.S. Coast Guard, assigned to U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Rockaway.
Mr. Jenner. How old is Mrs. Pic?
Mr. Pic. Thirty, sir. She turned 30 the 21st of December.
Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. She was born December 21, 1933?
Mr. Pic. It may be 22, sir; I never remember. I am giving sworn testimony, I don't want to lie about my wife's birthday; it is either the 21st or 22d, I am pretty sure it is the 21st.
Mr. Jenner. You are stationed where at present?
Mr. Pic. I am attached to Wilford Hall, USAF Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Tex.
Mr. Jenner. Do you—what is your particular assignment?
Mr. Pic. I am NCOIC, Special Procedures Branch, Department of Pathology, Wilford Hall Hospital. I have had this job since the 10th of February this year, and my other ones, I had another job when I talked to the Secret Service if you would be interested in that.
Mr. Jenner. How long have you been at Lackland?
Mr. Pic. I have been there since August 1962, sir.
Mr. Jenner. My information is you were born in New Orleans on January 17, 1932?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You entered the Coast Guard.
Mr. Pic. It was either 25 or 26 January 1950, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you were then 18 years of age?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And that was where?
Mr. Pic. I processed my enlistment in Fort Worth. I was sworn into the Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Jenner. I think it might be well if we had your service history all in one spot so you go ahead and for my benefit speak a little more slowly so I can absorb it.
Mr. Pic. All right, sir. Approximately 26 January 1950, enlisted in Coast Guard in Dallas, Tex.; from January 1950 until May 1950, I was in boot camp at U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Cape May, N.J. In May 1950 until January 1951, I was attached to U.S. Coast Guard cutter Rockaway. January 1951 until approximately June 1951 was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard Training Station, Groton, Conn. From June 1951 until January 1952, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard Base, St. George, Staten Island, N.Y. From January 1952 until April 1952, I was stationed at U.S. Naval Training Station, Bainbridge, Md. April 1952 until February 1953, I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard PSU, which is Port Security Unit, Ellis Island, N.Y. February 1953 until September 1953, I was stationed aboard the U.S. Coast Guard cutter Firebush.
Mr. Jenner. Were you at sea?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was classified as sea duty. It was really a buoy tender.
Mr. Jenner. In what area?
Mr. Pic. New York area, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Were you on ship all the time during that period?
Mr. Pic. We would go out a day, come back the next; back and forth.
Mr. Jenner. What I am really getting at is when you were ashore were you home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I went home the minute I got off the ship.
Mr. Jenner. OK.
Mr. Pic. September 1953 until April 1954—these months I am pretty sure, I am certain are OK.
Mr. Jenner. That is all right.
Mr. Pic. I was stationed at U.S. Naval Hospital, Portsmouth, Va. My address when I lived there was, for 3 months we lived with my sister-in-law in Norfolk.
Mr. Jenner. Name her, please.
Mr. Pic. Mrs. Emma Parrish, I believe.
Mr. Jenner. That was your wife's sister?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. Then in January of 1954 we moved over to Portsmouth, Va., 1234 Holliday Street.
April 1954 for about 2, 3 weeks, I was then stationed again at St. George, Staten Island, and I received orders through the Coast Guard cutter Halfmoon, and I was on the Coast Guard cutter Halfmoon until January 1956.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was weather patrol duty.
Mr. Jenner. You did come ashore when you got home?
Mr. Pic. We pulled weather patrol, sir. We would be out 5 or 6 weeks and we would be in 5 or 6 weeks; and this I tolerated for 21 months. On 1 February 1956, I joined the Air Force. I joined the Air Force on Staten Island, N.Y. My address at this time was 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y.
Mr. Jenner. In a few words, what was that transition. Had you appeared——
Mr. Pic. My enlistment from the Coast Guard was complete, sir, and I decided that staying in the Coast Guard for 20 or some odd years I wouldn't see much of my family and I understood the Air Force was a family man's outfit and I figured that was for me. So the day after I got out of the Coast Guard I joined the Air Force—no broken service. I was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, Hempstead, Long Island, N.Y., until October, end of September, October 1958, and received orders to Japan, APO 323, Tachikawa, Japan.
Mr. Jenner. What year were you in?
Mr. Pic. 1958 when I received my orders.
Mr. Jenner. At this time when you were assigned to Japan, that was the period of time also when your brother Lee Oswald, then in the Marines, was also stationed in Japan?
Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of that fact when you were stationed in Japan?
Mr. Pic. When I received my orders, I was under the impression he was in Korea, sir. I knew he was overseas in the Japanese-Korean area.
Mr. Jenner. Had you had any communication from him prior to your going to Japan?
Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge, sir, sometime after he entered the service and went overseas I received a letter from him, very short note. He wrote a very short note. I no longer have this.
Mr. Jenner. He entered the service in October of 1956?
Mr. Pic. I was in the Air Force at Mitchel Air Force Base at the time. Do you want me to finish with my military dates, and then I can go back?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. November 1958, 10 November 1958 until 17 July, 1962, I was stationed in Japan. In August 1962 until the present date assigned to Lackland, Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base.
Now, in the time period from—my mother paid us a Christmas visit, sir, during the Christmas holidays of 1957, I believe, after Lee had joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; that would be a little over a year, that would be a year and 2 months after he had joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. Pic. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Where were you at that time?
Mr. Pic. I was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base, sir, and I believe my address was 105 Avenue C, East Meadow, Long Island. I was living right next to the Air Force base.
Mr. Jenner. Had you known prior to that time, which presumably you did, that Lee had entered the service?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I knew this.
Mr. Jenner. Had enlisted in the Marines?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And how had you learned that, through your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; through my mother.
Mr. Jenner. Had you learned that at or about the time he actually enlisted? What were the circumstances?
Mr. Pic. Concerning what, sir?
Mr. Jenner. His enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. He enlisted in October 1956. He was then 17 years old.
Mr. Pic. My mother told me some way or another, I don't remember, sir. This is how I learned about it, either by phone call or by letter or some way. Of course, I knew he would do it as soon as he reached the age.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Why did you know he would do it and tell us the circumstances upon which you, the facts upon which you base that observation?
Mr. Pic. He did it for the same reasons that I did it and Robert did it, I assume, to get from out and under.
Mr. Jenner. Out and under what?
Mr. Pic. The yoke of oppression from my mother.
Mr. Jenner. Had that been a matter of discussion between you and for example, between you and your brother Robert?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; it was just something we understood about and never discussed.
Mr. Jenner. And that would include Lee as well as your brother Robert; that is, you were all aware of it?
Mr. Pic. I know this includes my brother Robert. Of course, when I was 18 years old I didn't discuss things like this with Lee, who was much younger.
Mr. Jenner. Please elaborate on that. You made a general statement——
Mr. Pic. OK.
Mr. Jenner. Which lawyers would call a mixed matter of conclusion and of fact and we would like to know the circumstances in general.
Mr. Pic. OK.
Mr. Jenner. They would probably go back for a good many years and it involves a personality.
Mr. Pic. Well, why don't I start with the death of Lee's father, and I think really starting there I can tell you more of my own feelings and so forth. I can make one statement but to bring out the circumstances I think I should go back a little further.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I will come back to this eventually. I will start you off this way. You are the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you are also the brother of Robert?
Mr. Pic. Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.
Mr. Jenner. Robert Lee Edward Oswald?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I notice in your statements that you refer to him as Robert Lee Edward Oswald. There are some references by others to Robert E. Lee Oswald.
Mr. Pic. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Your stepfather is generally referred to in the record and by witnesses as Lee Oswald. What was his full name?
Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge, sir, it was Robert Lee Edward Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. In any event your brother Robert was a junior.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your brother Robert was born April 7, 1934; is that to the best of your recollection?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Jenner. And your brother Lee Harvey Oswald, October 18, 1939?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, air.
Mr. Jenner. Your father's name?
Mr. Pic. Edward John Pic, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You are named after him except——
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. The two surnames were reversed?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir; I think it appears on here. Yes, sir. John Pic, Jr., in fact his name is——
Mr. Jenner. Edward John Pic, Jr.
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. And your mother was Marguerite Claverie Oswald?
Mr. Pic. Claverie, Marguerite Frances.
Mr. Jenner. And your mother and father were married what date?
Mr. Pic. Eighth day of August 1929, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you are now reading from what?
Mr. Pic. The marriage certificate of Edward John Pic, Jr., and Mrs. Marguerite Frances Claverie.
Mr. Jenner. That is a marriage certificate that you, that is among your personal papers?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I am going to put an exhibit number on it. We will take a photograph of it and return the original to you.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that as John Pic Exhibit No. 1.
(John Pic Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as John Pic Exhibit No. 1, a marriage certificate certified and dated August 8, 1929, reflecting the marriage of Edward John Pic, Jr. and Miss Marguerite Frances Claverie on the 1st day of August 1929, in Harrison County, Miss. The marriage certificate does not show the town.
Sergeant, do you have any recollection of your father?
Mr. Pic. My own father?
Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pic. No, sir, I don't.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection of ever having seen your father?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Jenner. You were too young at the time but you eventually became aware of the fact that your mother, Marguerite, and your father, Edward, were divorced not long after your birth?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you become aware also of the fact that at the time of your birth that your father and mother were separated?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. This is the first information, I take it, then, in the utterance I have just made?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That you have become aware that your mother and your father were separated at the time of your birth?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You did learn about that?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. From your mother?
Mr. Pic. From Life magazine, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I see. Well, that is what I was really getting at.
Mr. Pic. O.K.
Mr. Jenner. It was only in the last 6 or 8 months that you learned that at the time of your birth your mother and your father were separated?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. I had always been told that they were divorced because he didn't want children. I didn't know anything else but that. I didn't know the time periods or anything else, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your stepfather, when your mother and your stepfather—I will call him Lee Oswald because all the witnesses have referred to him as Lee Oswald, is that what he was called, do you have any recollection of it?
Mr. Pic. I remember him being referred to as Mr. Oswald, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have a recollection at the time, at least—that is an inelegant question. Do you recall your mother then marrying Lee Oswald or Mr. Oswald?
Mr. Pic. I knew they were married, I don't recall the marriage ceremony.
Mr. Jenner. What do you recall about him, sergeant?
Mr. Pic. I recall he was an insurance salesman, sir, for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. He used to take me on his rounds for collections sometimes. He was very strict with us. We got whippings when we were bad.
Mr. Jenner. You don't mean to claim that any of them was undeserved?
Mr. Pic. No, sir. Not in the least.
Mr. Jenner. I should say this to you, I think. The witnesses all, everybody spoke well of your stepfather.
Mr. Pic. That is how I remember him, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You were born in New Orleans?
Mr. Pic. I was?
Mr. Jenner. I am really putting a question mark at the end.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was born at New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. And the family lived in New Orleans?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Were you ever informed by anybody as to the business of your father, not your stepfather but your——
Mr. Pic. My real father?
Mr. Jenner. Yes; or occupation?
Mr. Pic. From what I was told he was a stevedore and had once been a professional basketball player. This is all I remember ever hearing about him.
Mr. Jenner. And this was information that came from primarily your mother?
Mr. Pic. From my mother; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. As a boy as you grew up in New Orleans were you advised whether your father was alive, whether he was in New Orleans or where he was or anything about him in that connection?
Mr. Pic. Being the nosy child I was, every once in a while I would look him up in the phone book so I knew he existed.
Mr. Jenner. Did you make any inquiries to find out what his business was or occupation?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever make any attempt to go to where he might be working or living to see what he looked like?
Mr. Pic. I thought of it several times but I never made an attempt.
Mr. Jenner. Were you influenced in this in any respect by your mother?
Mr. Pic. No, sir. I do remember on several occasions when we would visit the Lillian Murrets the name would come up that he had visited them, they would see him now and then and, of course, every time this cropped up it made me more inquisitive.
Mr. Jenner. You mentioned Lillian Murret, that is your aunt, your mother's sister?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And her husband is Charles "Dutz" Murret?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. In those early years, did your family reside somewhere near the Murrets? I am going to get into all those addresses if I can, but I am thinking of the overall relationship geographically.
Mr. Pic. As I recollect, the house was where Mr. Oswald died, all I know is that it was on the corner of Alvez and Galvez.
Mr. Jenner. 2109 Alvar?
Mr. Pic. There you go. I think the street that ran next to it was Galvez.
Mr. Jenner. You are correct.
Mr. Pic. This is the first real—I remember a first real house prior to this, where it was, sir, I don't know. I was about 5 at the time.
Mr. Jenner. But the first one you remember is the house on the corner that you have mentioned?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do any of these addresses refresh your recollection? 2205 Alvar?
Mr. Pic. It may be the address of the house on Alvez and Galvez, I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. No?
Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. 2123 Alvar?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. 1661 Paul Morphy?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. 2132 Gallier?
Mr. Pic. The name, the streets sound—I may have heard it before.
Mr. Jenner. 1917 Gallier?
Mr. Pic. Only the street sounds familiar.
Mr. Jenner. 805 Greenwood?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. 220 North—my pronunciation will be bad—Telemachus.
Mr. Pic. No.
Mr. Jenner. 123 South Cortez?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You had to get away yesterday before a letter arrived which is at your base now, from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, confirming arrangements for you to appear and have your deposition taken before the Commission, and enclosing with that letter copies of the legislation being Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission, and a copy of President Johnson's Executive Orders bringing the Commission into existence No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.
When you return to Lackland base you will find that letter probably in the possession of your Commanding Officer, and he will deliver it to you.
The Commission was authorized by the resolution I have mentioned and brought into existence by the President to investigate the facts and circumstances involved in and surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and we have understood from witnesses and other information we have, that you had and still have information bearing upon the facts and circumstances relative to that assassination, and it is this line of questioning that is directed toward that.
We appreciate your appearing voluntarily from Lackland base to appear here today.
That letter, and the enclosures state that you are entitled to counsel if you want counsel present, and if you desire to have counsel present I can suspend this now.
Mr. Pic. I have nothing to hide, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Go ahead, John.
Mr. Ely. I just wanted to check on a couple of addresses with you, sir. 914 Hennesey, do you remember that?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Ely. What about Taft Place?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You attended William Frantz Elementary School in Dallas, did you not?
Mr. Pic. New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. With your brother, Robert?
Mr. Pic. What grade was I in, sir. He was two grades behind me. If I was in the third, he was there. If I wasn't, he wasn't.
Mr. Jenner. Well, the record shows you enrolled in William Frantz School at 3811 North Galvez on the 16th of September 1936 at which time you were 4½ years old.
Mr. Pic. Well, he wouldn't be there.
Mr. Jenner. Not at that time. He was then 2½.
Do you recall transferring from William Frantz Elementary School to George Washington Elementary School?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Jenner. Was that some time in late September or in November, perhaps of 1940.
Mr. Pic. Well, prior to that we went to another place, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your first elementary school was William Frantz?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you attended William Frantz until when, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. Pic. I don't think I attended William Frantz after——
Mr. Jenner. The death of your stepfather?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; somewhere around there. We went to a boarding school over in Gretna, La. Infant Jesus College was the name of it, I believe, both Robert and I, and we hated the place.
Mr. Jenner. That was a very short period of time?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; because we hated the place.
Mr. Jenner. I will get to that in a moment.
Mr. Pic. I don't know whether it was before Washington or after. I think it was before Washington.
Mr. Jenner. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection this way. Your stepfather died in August of 1939. You were then living in the house at the corner of Alvar and Galvez which you recall as Alvez and Galvez.
Do you recall that some months after the death of your father and in the following year, the late winter or early spring, that you moved from that house?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a physician by the name of Mancuso?
Mr. Pic. It may or may not be familiar, sir. I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. He was the doctor who delivered Lee, and also the man who rented the house in which you had been living. Do you recall that?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You do recall leaving that house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; sometime afterward.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that it was a matter of months and not a matter of years?
Mr. Pic. It had to be months, sir, because I have got something else for 1940 here.
Mr. Jenner. When you moved from the house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather, do you recall moving to 1242 Congress Street?
Mr. Pic. No, sir. I remember moving to a Bartholomew Street.
Mr. Jenner. That Bartholomew Street, I will get to that in a moment, perhaps to refresh your recollection was a little house that your mother purchased on contract.
Mr. Pic. What, Bartholomew?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. I remember that house.
Mr. Jenner. 1010 Bartholomew.
Mr. Pic. That could be it, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Before you moved to 1010 Bartholomew you lived, did you not, at 1242 Congress?
Mr. Pic. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother didn't sell the Alvar Street house until January of 1944.
Mr. Pic. I thought it was sold the day we moved out.
Mr. Jenner. It was rented by Dr. Mancuso the day you moved out, and ultimately your mother regained possession in January 1944, and he then purchased that house substantially contemporaneously, in January of 1944.
Mr. Pic. Can I ask you a question?
Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pic. Being Mr. Oswald was in the insurance business, and being I was rather young, how did he leave her, I have no idea.
Mr. Jenner. Well, I will answer that question. You tell me what you thought at the time and what your impression now is.
Mr. Pic. Well, he didn't leave her much is what I was told.
Mr. Jenner. Was that the feeling you had at the time?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Well, he did leave a small insurance policy, and the house on Alvar, on the corner of Alvar and Galvez, which was being purchased under contract, and that is about all.
I take it, it is your recollection, Sergeant, that when you and your mother and Robert and Lee, who was then an infant child, just a few months old, left the house on 2109 Alvar you entered some institution.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And what is your recollection of that institution?
Mr. Pic. I believe it was in Gretna, La.
Mr. Jenner. Spell that for the reporter.
Mr. Pic. G-r-e-t-n-a, a whole bunch of little towns right across the river from New Orleans, West Wego, and a couple of others, that was one of these, I think it was Gretna, it might be in one of that group.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. And the name of the school was Infant Jesus College and it was a Catholic school, sir. And us not being Catholics they lowered the boom on us.
Mr. Jenner. That would be you and your brother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you were at that time just about 8 years old. Was it before your 8th birthday or what?
Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember that, sir.
Mr. Jenner. It was in 1940, however?
Mr. Pic. I thought it was in the end of 1939. It is either the end of 1939 or early 1940.
Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that——
Mr. Pic. We were still living on Alvez and Galvez when we went to that school.
Mr. Jenner. All right. That is what I wanted to straighten out.
Your mother put you and Robert in the Catholic boarding school before the family actually moved out of the 2109 Alvar home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. How long were you boys at that Catholic institution?
Mr. Pic. My best recollection is that it was to the end of the school year, 1940.
Mr. Jenner. That would be the summer of 1940?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Your mother was not working at that time, was she?
Mr. Pic. As far as I know; no, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to why you were placed in that institution inasmuch as your mother was not working, and at that time you were still living or she was, with Lee at 2109 Alvar?
Mr. Pic. My impression then, sir; I don't know, I can give you my impressions now——
Mr. Jenner. Are these impressions that you are about to give me and I do want you to give them to me, gathered from recollection of the course of events over a period of years?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Based on discussions in the family over a period of years?
Mr. Pic. Based mainly on experiences in contact with my mother over a period of years, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right; tell us about them.
Mr. Pic. I think it was probably because it was cheaper to maintain Robert and I over at this school than it was to maintain us at home. I mean we boarded there, they fed us, went to school. I don't know what the fee was but this was the impression I have now.
Mr. Jenner. While you boys were at the Catholic school, did your mother and Lee leave, if you have a recollection of this, the 2109 Alvar home? This would be sometime between the first of January 1940, and the time you finished the second semester, let us say.
Mr. Pic. If this house between Alvez and Bartholomew is a green house.
Mr. Jenner. Green?
Mr. Pic. Green, I can remember it. You can tell me if it was green, I don't know, sir. I remember a green house somewhere in this time period.
Mr. Jenner. Let me get at that this way. You and Robert were lodged eventually in the Bethlehem——
Mr. Pic. Bethlehem Orphans Home, somewhere on St. Peters Street, New Orleans. I think this was in 1942, though, this happened.
Mr. Jenner. Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum.
Mr. Pic. Right. That is the name.
Mr. Jenner. Known as the Bethlehem Children's Home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And—all right, now, you entered there on the 3d of January 1942. Is that your recollection?
Mr. Pic. That is my recollection.
Mr. Jenner. The winter of 1942?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I know it was a little bit after the war was declared.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, taking that date, January 1942, and going back——
Mr. Pic. OK.
Mr. Jenner. To the end of the school year in 1940——
Mr. Pic. Well, the school in September 1940—I think I put in about a year and a half in this Washington Elementary School after we were taken out of Infant Jesus College.
Mr. Jenner. At that time didn't you live at 1242 Congress Street in New Orleans?
Mr. Pic. Sir, if you have a map of New Orleans and show me where this is maybe I can remember, but I don't remember anything but Bartholomew.
Mr. Jenner. For the purposes of refreshing your recollection the records of the public school system of New Orleans reflect the following: that you were enrolled at William Frantz School located at 3811 North Galvez when you were 4½ years old on September 16, 1936. You continued there thereafter until September 5, 1940.
Mr. Pic. September 1940.
Mr. Jenner. These records would show that you were discharged from the William Frantz Elementary School on January 2, 1940.
Mr. Pic. That is better.
Mr. Jenner. And that you reentered William Frantz on September 5, 1940, and you transferred to George Washington Elementary School on November 12, 1940.
At the time of the transfer you lived at 1242 Congress Street. Your mother purchased the house at 1010 Bartholomew on the 5th of March 1941. And she sold it on the 16th of January 1942.
With that information, does that serve to refresh your recollection that the course of circumstances might have been these. I will state them and then you correct me. I don't want you to take my word for it but this is solely for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, if it does refresh your recollection.
Your stepfather died in August of 1939. In the winter of 1940, early, sometime in January 1940, your mother took you and your brother, Robert, out of school, you were in the William Frantz Elementary School at that time, and placed you in the Catholic school.
Mr. Pic. I think prior or right after this Catholic school there was another school which was in downtown New Orleans. It was a day school. She would bring us there in the morning and take us home at night. I don't remember too much. We didn't stay there very long.
Mr. Jenner. It is your definite recollection, however, that you were at the Catholic orphanage school in the winter of 1940, which would be approximately 5 months after the death of your stepfather.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't make that statement. I make the statement that it is my definite recollection I was in the Infant Jesus College School while we lived in this house on Alvez. What months these were, sir, I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. And it is the best of your recollection at the present time that that was the school period ending in the summer of 1940?
Mr. Pic. I think so, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to the school you attended commencing the school year September 1940? Did you return to William Frantz?
Mr. Pic. I went to George Washington—if I was there at William Frantz, I don't remember. Well, the dates you give me it would be——
Mr. Jenner. A short time?
Mr. Pic. Right. I remember George Washington.
Mr. Jenner. Were you living at home at that time?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Was that 1242 Congress?
Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Would a map of New Orleans help you any?
Mr. Pic. Possible; I don't remember this Congress, I remember a green house, this was a green house I remember. What street it was on, I don't know. But I do remember something about a green house.
Mr. Jenner. Was it in the French quarter, in the old city?
Mr. Pic. The way I remember the French quarter is down in here somewhere, and this is certainly not the French quarter. Here is this Gretna. It may be in Algiers that Infant Jesus, one of these two, either Gretna or Algiers. I think it was Gretna.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother said it was Algiers, and there is evidence that it was located in Algiers.
Mr. Pic. OK, sir; Algiers. I know it was across the river.
Mr. Jenner. You do have a recollection, however, of living in a house on Bartholomew?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you happen to remember, you don't remember now the exact address?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. It was at 1010 Bartholomew. Did you live in the 1010 Bartholomew house?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Was it before or during, or when was it with respect to when you and Robert entered the Bethlehem Orphanage?
Mr. Pic. We was living there when I went to Washington.
Mr. Jenner. George Washington Elementary School at 3810 St. Cloud?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Our records show your mother purchased the 1010 Bartholomew property in March of 1941, March 9 to be exact.
Mr. Pic. When I was at Infant Jesus College, I couldn't very well remember that Congress Street because I probably—we wasn't living there.
Mr. Jenner. You weren't living——
Mr. Pic. At home.
Mr. Jenner. No.
Mr. Pic. So, I am afraid I can't remember that Congress Street address. I remember a green house.
Mr. Jenner. A green house.
Mr. Pic. Yes; that is about the best I can do.
Mr. Jenner. In any event it was a house different from or other than the 2109 Alvar?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. In which you were living at the time of the death of your stepfather?
Mr. Pic. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. That is good enough. You remember being with your brother Robert in the Bethlehem Orphanage?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And your initial utterance voluntarily was that you entered there in 1942.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was right after the war.
Mr. Jenner. The records show that it was in the month of January 1942. You were then 10 years old so you might have some reasonable recollection of it. Tell us the circumstances and what you understand about it.
Mr. Pic. Well, while we lived on this Bartholomew Street my mother opened in the front room a little store called Oswald's Notion Shop. I think she sold spools of thread and needles and things like this.
Mr. Jenner. Did she sell any sweets or candy for children?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I remember we used to go in there and swipe it.
Mr. Jenner. Was your mother working at that time other than managing or operating this little notions and sweet shop?
Mr. Pic. Not that I remember, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And it was in a segment of the home at 1010 Bartholomew?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was the very front room.
Mr. Jenner. And you boys were then attending school where?
Mr. Pic. Washington.
Mr. Jenner. When I say you boys, it is your brother Robert and yourself.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am sure Robert was attending school then. It was Washington.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. Your brother Robert entered grammar school on September 8, 1938. That was William Frantz so he was of school age at the time we are talking about.
Describe that little house to us on Bartholomew. Was it a new house?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; it wasn't new. I guess it had about a minimum of two bedrooms, rather large back yard. We had a dog, and the dog's name was Sunshine. There was a fence ran down it. I remember the house.
Mr. Jenner. Was it a nice neighborhood?
Mr. Pic. It wasn't as nice as Alvez and Galvez.
Mr. Jenner. At that time. I see. Now, you lead me to ask something I should have asked heretofore, tell me about the neighborhood at 2109 Alvar. What do you recall about that?
Mr. Pic. They were all brand new houses. In fact, I think we were the first ones to move in on the street, and most of the other ones were under construction there. William Frantz was building a new school. It was a rather nice neighborhood. Middle income, I guess, at that time.
Mr. Jenner. And the 1010 Bartholomew home was not as new and the neighborhood was not quite the same as at 2109 Alvar, but what kind of a neighborhood was it? Was it a reasonably nice place, area? You describe it. Don't ever let me put words in your mouth.
Mr. Pic. Well, digging back in my sociology courses, I would say it was upper-lower class, if there is such a classification.
Mr. Jenner. Do you remember any neighbors at 1010 Bartholomew?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; there was a milkman, his name was Bud. Right on the other corner from Bartholomew, on St. Cloud was a theater, I think was called the Nola, and he lived behind this theater, he was our milkman, and my mother and his wife and him were rather friendly, and we used to go on trips on the weekends to the parks and things like this.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I ask you again what you recall to have been the circumstances under which you entered the Bethlehem Orphanage, you and your brother Robert?
Mr. Pic. I can only give you impressions, I have now, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Are these impressions that you gained now, gained from an attempt to refresh your recollection?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. As to the circumstances at that time?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. I think properly the notion store wasn't a booming business, and she had to go to work and since we were reminded we were orphans all the time, the right place to be would be in an orphan home.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother did remind you repeatedly that you were orphans?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That sort of thing. Would you elaborate on that, please?
Mr. Pic. Well, sir; she constantly reminded us we were orphans, that she didn't have the money to support us in everything, and she opened a notion store to make money, and she wasn't making money, and I remember she closed it and went to work at about the same time that we entered Bethlehem.
Mr. Jenner. In January 1942, Lee was a little over 2 years old, is that correct; he was born October 1939.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You were then 10 and your brother Robert was 8, I am talking about approximate ages now.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I think you entered Bethlehem before your tenth birthday.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And a few months before his eighth birthday. Did Lee eventually join you at Bethlehem?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he did. The exact date I don't remember. I know he was there for only a matter of months. He wasn't there as long as Robert and I was.
Mr. Jenner. I show you a document I will have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 2, please, for purposes of identification which appears to be a Xerox reproduction of an application blank executed by Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and related minutes for admission of Lee Oswald to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association, dated at New Orleans, December 26, 1942, and showing entry of Lee Oswald into the orphanage asylum on the 26th day of December 1942.
(John Pic Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, I direct your attention to the line on which appears what purports to be the signature of "Mrs. Marguerite Oswald." You are familiar with the handwriting, are you not?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Of your mother Marguerite?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And with her signature?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Drawing on that familiarity, is that signature the signature of your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence the document now identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 2.
Having done that, Sergeant, does that refresh your recollection as to the time when your brother Lee Oswald was admitted to the orphanage asylum?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall it to have been sometime in late 1942 or thereabout?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to when he was—he joined you at the orphan asylum.
Mr. Pic. I remember we were there a while, sir. He came, and to the best of my recollection he didn't stay but 6 months at the longest, and left again. I don't think—he wasn't there as long as we were.
Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention, Sergeant, to the fact your mother has listed on this application her address as 111 Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr. Pic. That address is familiar to me. Sherwood Forest Drive part of it, the numbers are not.
Mr. Jenner. I wouldn't expect you to remember the exact number but the street you do recall?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I do. In fact, the Murrets lived on the same street.
Mr. Jenner. Is it your impression then that the address of 111 Sherwood Forest Drive was probably the address of the Murrets?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall your mother moving out of 1010 Bartholomew?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And so that it is your recollection that sometime between your entry into the Bethlehem Orphanage at which time the family lived at 1010 Bartholomew, that your mother and Lee or at least your mother left, it must have been your mother and Lee, left the 1010 Bartholomew residence and moved to another home on Sherwood Drive?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. You put it in sequence as best you can.
Mr. Pic. If there was anything between Bartholomew and Sherwood Forest Drive, I don't remember, sir. I do remember the Sherwood Forest Drive house, and if I remember right it was three or four doors down from the Murrets.
Mr. Jenner. Where would that be in your recollection with respect to Bartholomew?
Mr. Pic. Oh, that is way across town, sir. That is in the city park area. In fact, it was only a block from city park.
Mr. Jenner. And Lee was then—your mother had him with her because at this time, December 1942, he was just a little over 3 years old.
Mr. Pic. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. The records show that the 1010 Bartholomew home was sold on the 16th of January 1942. Does that refresh your recollection as to sequence that prior to her sale of the house she moved out of the house and over to Sherwood Drive and the placing of you boys in the Bethlehem orphanage school was all part of the picture? She sold the Bartholomew house, entered you boys in the orphanage in January 1942.
Mr. Pic. You want to know if I think she sold the house before we were placed in the home?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. But after you were in the home, that is the Bethlehem Orphanage Home that house was disposed of in some fashion at least?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And she moved into another house on Sherwood Drive?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, do you remember anybody, an uncle of yours by the name of John Oswald?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Or——
Mr. Pic. I remember an uncle on my stepfather's side. I don't recall his name, sir.
Mr. Jenner. W. S. Oswald, is that familiar to you?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. But other than an uncle on your stepfather's side, that is you don't recall his name, his first name?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. His name was Oswald, though?
Mr. Pic. I know it was on his side, sir. It may have been his sister, I don't know. Maybe his brother-in-law.
Mr. Jenner. But you don't know.
I will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 3 another application blank, this one dated January 3, 1942, for admission of Robert Edward Oswald, Jr., to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum, which is dated January 3, 1942, and direct you, Sergeant to the signature appearing on that exhibit reading "Mrs. Lee Oswald." Are you familiar with that signature?
Mr. Pic. That is the first time I have ever seen her use the word "Lee."
Mr. Jenner. But the handwriting; that is her handwriting?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence a document now identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 3.
(John Pic Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Now, directing your attention to that exhibit which shows the entry of your brother Robert in the orphanage asylum on January 3, 1942, is it a fact that you and your brother Robert entered the asylum at the same time?
Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to this. There appears in the line designated "mother" written in longhand Marguerite Claverie Oswald, address, 1010 Bartholomew, and then right above it there is written 831 Pauline Street—January 28.
Do you recall your mother moving with Lee to a place on Pauline Street in January of 1942?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All you recall is that she and Lee did move to a place, another place from the 1010 Bartholomew address?
Mr. Pic. Well, it shows it there. I thought it was Sherwood Forest, I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. It might have been shortly after that?
Mr. Pic. This is not familiar at all, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That is the 831 Pauline Street address is not at all familiar?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Is any of this application blank, that is any of the longhand on it, in the hand of your mother other than her signature?
Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your religion is Lutheran, is it not?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you were baptized in the Lutheran church, were you not?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your recollection is that your brother Lee was taken from the orphanage home before you and Robert were?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You were released in June of 1944?
Mr. Pic. I have—I may have. If you say it was June, sir, OK. It was May or June.
Mr. Jenner. May or June of 1944. And does it refresh your recollection that your brother Lee was released from that home the previous January, as a matter of fact on——
Mr. Pic. He didn't go when we went and he didn't leave, all I know is he didn't enter when we entered and he didn't leave when we left. It was between those periods the best I can state.
Mr. Jenner. The record (Pic Exhibit) shows he was released from the home on the 19th of January, 1944 (Pic Exhibit No. 2A), and that he entered the home on the 26th of December, 1942 (Pic Exhibit No. 2).
So he was there 2 years.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; that is not right.
Mr. Jenner. That doesn't square with your recollection, you mean?
Mr. Pic. No, sir. He may have been in and out of there off and on but he didn't spend full time there that long. You see she may have pulled him out there for a couple of weeks to stay with the Murrets, and things or even longer and still have him charged against Bethlehem.
Mr. Jenner. I misspoke when I said 2 years. It would be the period from December 26, 1942, to January 29, 1944, which is 1 year and 1 month.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; that would only be a year and 1 month.
Mr. Jenner. For the record then that span of time for your brother between January 29, 1944, when he was released, and December 26, 1942, when he entered is approximately 13 months.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That is about what you remember, isn't it?
Mr. Pic. Well, I remember it about 6 months. But I guess that is right. I know he wasn't in there a full 13 months at a clip. He was in and out of there in 13 months. At that school if your parents wanted to take you home for a couple or 3 weeks they took you home for a couple or 3 weeks.
Mr. Jenner. And you do remember your mother did that?
Mr. Pic. Sure, I am sure he stayed at the Murrets also.
Mr. Jenner. Well, the Murrets recall that. Now, I show you an exhibit which we will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 4 which for purposes of identification is a Xerox duplication of a letter from Mrs. Marguerite Oswald to the Reverend Harold of the Evangelical Lutheran Orphanage Asylum dated February 1, 1945, addressed 4801 Victor, Dallas, Tex.
It is in longhand. Would you please examine it for the purpose of answering a question I will put to you as to whether it is in the handwriting of your mother?
Mr. Pic. It appears to me, sir; to be her handwriting.
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibit No. 4.
(John Pic Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. I have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 5 another application for admission to Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association dated December 23, 1942, for the admission of John Edward Pic and Robert Oswald to that orphanage, but the information on the application is confined to John Edward Pic.
Unfortunately, Mr. Pic, this application, for some reason by oversight was not signed by your mother. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Rev. J. H. Nau?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. At the Redeemer Lutheran Church?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, Mr. Reporter, for purposes of the record, there appears on this application the fact that the marriage of Sergeant Pic's mother Marguerite and his father Edward John Pic, Jr. was at Gulfport, La.
Mr. Pic. Mississippi.
Mr. Jenner. No, it says Gulfport, La. here and should have been Gulfport, Miss.?
Mr. Pic. Yes; Mississippi.
Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Reverend Scherer?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. The Trinity Evangelical Church.
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a Rev. M. R. Lecron?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Of the Redeemer Church?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, all you boys were christened in the Lutheran church, faith, were you not?
Mr. Pic. I don't know or remember if Lee was. I don't know about Lee.
Mr. Jenner. The record of the Bethlehem Children's Home show that he was baptized by the Rev. M. R. Lecron of the Redeemer Lutheran Church. The exact date, however, is not given.
Mr. Pic. They even have his birthday wrong there.
Mr. Jenner. 1 day. They have it as the 19th whereas it was 18th. As a matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the 19th.
Mr. Pic. So does one of the letters.
Mr. Jenner. I offer John Pic Exhibit No. 5 in evidence.
(John Pic Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. We will adjourn now and reconvene at 3 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)