TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED
The proceeding was reconvened at 3:25 p.m.
Mr. Jenner. All right, Sergeant.
Do you recall along about this time that you were in the Bethlehem Orphanage your mother became acquainted with a man by the name of E. A. Ekdahl and subsequently married?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And it was about this time, around 1944, that you boys were withdrawn from the Bethlehem Orphanage and taken to Texas?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I will go back a little bit because I want you to put it in sequence. Before we adjourned for noon recess, I covered the matter of the period of the birth of Lee, the death of your stepfather Lee Oswald, and then brought you up to the Bethlehem School and stopped there.
To the extent you have impressions commencing with, let us say, your entry into grammar school, at that time your stepfather Lee Oswald was alive.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You were, when you entered grammar school that was kindergarten you were only four and half years old.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall moving from place to place before you finally settled in——
Mr. Pic. I just remember one residence prior to Alvez and Galvez.
Mr. Jenner. I see.
Mr. Pic. Where that would have been, I don't remember.
Mr. Jenner. OK. But you sort of settled down in 2109 Alvar?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That your stepfather had purchased that home in 1938?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And then you went along, he died about a year and a half later after he purchased it.
Take us from the time that your stepfather died and tell us your impressions of how the home life changed; if it did change, what effect, if any, you observed that you now can recall that circumstances had on your mother; and what kind of life you and the boys began to lead as distinguished from the life you led while your stepfather was alive if there is any change now.
I don't want to put any words in your mouth.
Mr. Pic. Well, we were from the time of his death, placed in two boarding schools prior to Bethlehem, this Infant Jesus, and the other one I don't recall the name of, the other one being a day school.
Mr. Jenner. Sort of a day school, your mother took you in the morning and brought you back. That is two of the boys, not Lee?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. He was almost a suckling child?
Mr. Pic. I don't remember. I don't see how he could have been there.
Now this day school was prior to Infant Jesus, it had to be. We went to Infant Jesus and out of there back home for a year or so where we attended Washington and then into Bethlehem.
Like I said before, we were constantly reminded we were orphans and had financial difficulty.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir; when you just talked about Washington and Bethlehem you put Washington before Bethlehem, and this morning you put Washington into Bethlehem.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; we went to Washington before Bethlehem.
Mr. Jenner. I think you will find that the record of this morning, I am pretty sure, will show a different sequence. That is your impression, that you went into Bethlehem a few months after your stepfather died?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; Infant Jesus.
Mr. Jenner. Infant Jesus. I see. Go ahead. You are right.
Mr. Pic. We were constantly reminded we were orphans and there were financial difficulties, and I was rather young, I don't remember too much about this, but it was always something to do about money problems. We kind of liked Infant Jesus, it wasn't bad at all. We had a pretty good childhood while we lived on Bartholomew Street, there were no major problems there. And even at Bethlehem we both, Robert and I enjoyed Bethlehem. I mean we were all there with the kids with the same problems, same age groups, and everything. Things for myself became worse when Lee came there, that is why I know he wasn't there too long.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us about it?
Mr. Pic. At Bethlehem they had a ruling that if you had a younger brother or sister there they had bowel movements in their pants the older brothers would clean them up, and they would yank me out of classes in school to go do this and, of course, this peeved me very much, and I wasn't but 10 or 9 or 11.
Mr. Jenner. He was only 3 years old?
Mr. Pic. Yes; but I was 10. And they did quite a few things like this. If there was an older brother or sister there they had to take care of the younger child. The people there didn't all the time.
Mr. Jenner. Was this 7-year spread as the years went on between you and Lee, did that affect your relationship with him as distinguished from your relationship with your brother Robert who was only 2 years younger?
Mr. Pic. Well, anything I was involved in Robert always was. Lee was left out because of the age difference. Robert and I went to all these homes together and all the schools together. Lee didn't, of course.
Mr. Jenner. During the course of the years your companions and friends, I assume were different, that is you and Robert on the one hand?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And Lee on the other?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. His life differed a little from yours too, didn't it, that is at the outset of this early period your mother, except for this period at Bethlehem, when he was there, except for his being withdrawn for a few weeks at a time, he was largely with her?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Living with her?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And did she express problems on her part with him?
Mr. Pic. Well, she referred how would she work and take care of a child and things like this, both. It would seem that the problem with Robert and I was easier to solve than the problem with Lee.
Mr. Jenner. I interrupted you. Go ahead with your account.
Mr. Pic. Well, up until we left Bethlehem, I can only recall three places of employment for Mrs. Oswald, one being Oswald's notion store which was 1941–42, thereabouts.
Mr. Jenner. While you had the Bethlehem house?
Mr. Pic. No; that was before Bethlehem.
Mr. Jenner. I don't mean Bethlehem, Bartholomew Street?
Mr. Pic. Yes; after we were placed in Bethlehem she was a manager of Princess Hosiery on Canal Street and Pittsburgh Plate and Glass Co., I don't remember which one came first.
Mr. Jenner. Myrtle Evans referred to Pittsburgh Plate and Lillian Murret referred to Pittsburgh Plate. You do recall that?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; in fact, I think at the time she worked at Pittsburgh Plate she was going with Mr. Ekdahl. In fact, I think I remember him driving us over there or something once.
Mr. Jenner. When you were at Bethlehem, did your Aunt Lillian ever have occasion to visit?
Mr. Pic. She never visited us that I recall. We visited her many times.
Mr. Jenner. While you were at Bethlehem?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall Myrtle Evans visiting on any occasion?
Mr. Pic. I don't remember. Wait a minute. Myrtle Evans, is she kind of heavy?
Mr. Jenner. She is now.
Mr. Pic. She was then too, that is the same one.
Mr. Jenner. Energetic?
Mr. Pic. Yes; I remember a Myrtle.
Mr. Jenner. She had taken some accounting and——
Mr. Pic. The name is familiar, sir. I can't place the lady.
Mr. Jenner. She had been a girl friend of your mother's?
Mr. Pic. Yes; I wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at Bethlehem, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the Evanses coming over to see you when you were at Covington, one time?
Mr. Pic. I don't recollect, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recollect Myrtle Evans coming and visiting when you first went to Texas?
Mr. Pic. Sir; I don't remember Myrtle Evans that much. The name Myrtle is familiar to me. Just like this woman that worked at Holmes for 30 years is familiar to me. Where I had seen her and different places?
Mr. Jenner. H-o-l-m-e-s?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is a department store in New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. Of course you would recall the Murret family.
Mr. Pic. Yes; I recall them very good.
Mr. Jenner. There were a couple of those children about your age and Robert's, is that right?
Mr. Pic. I can only—let's see, Charles, there is Marilyn and Charles.
Mr. Jenner. Marilyn is the youngest?
Mr. Pic. Marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; Boogie is the youngest.
Mr. Pic. What is he doing now. I heard he was playing semipro ball.
Mr. Jenner. No. He is not doing that any more. Is Boogie John?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I think——
Mr. Jenner. One is a dentist, one is with Squibb, Gene is a seminarian.
Mr. Pic. Gene is the priest. Gene is the one who is my age or thereabouts. Boogie was closer to Robert's age.
Mr. Jenner. She had five children?
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. Marilyn.
Mr. Pic. Joyce.
Mr. Jenner. Marilyn, Joyce, John, Gene——
Mr. Pic. Charles.
Mr. Jenner. And Charles. They are all alive?
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. That was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much.
Mr. Jenner. How did Lee get along with them?
Mr. Pic. Well, I don't know how he got along with them. I know he was placed there several times to stay for a while. I don't know if the people resented this or was glad to have him or not.
Mr. Jenner. Well, they were glad to have him. They appeared to me to be generous people.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. We always could count on our uncle for a dollar or two.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. I take it from the questions I asked you this morning that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with the Oswald family?
Mr. Pic. There was no contact that I remember at all, sir, after his death. Prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what I remember. I remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would visit. He had this other Oswald who was either a brother or sister or something, we visited these people. I remember the older woman we visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just Robert and I, a whole bunch of toys for Christmas every Christmas. But after his death, there was no contact at all, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What is your impression as to why that took place?
Mr. Pic. I will speculate and say that——
Mr. Jenner. Give me the impression you have rather than speculate.
Mr. Pic. They couldn't get along with Mrs. Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. With your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went to work in 1942, and she had a couple, a Mr. and Mrs. Roach taking care of Lee who was then——
Mr. Pic. What was Roach's first name, sir?
Mr. Jenner. Thomas.
Mr. Pic. What street did he live on?
Mr. Jenner. 831 Pauline.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't. The only one I could think of that may have taken care of Lee was this milkman Bud and his wife.
Mr. Jenner. To help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your mother lived with Lee at 831 Pauline Street in 1942, and a couple present there by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Roach, Thomas and Dora Roach. They had been living on de Lessups Street in New Orleans, in the 800 block.
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And moved into 831 Pauline, or your mother moved into 831 Pauline Street with them. There was a whole question as to who was the renter, whether it was the Roaches or your mother?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; this I don't recall at all.
Mr. Jenner. And it wasn't long after they were there that some difficulty arose with respect to Lee and that ended that. It was about 6 weeks or a month, 2 months. But you have no recollection of that?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. The question I asked you and which I keep interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course of recounting that.
Mr. Pic. Well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and lower in the class structure.
Mr. Jenner. As your financial status——
Mr. Pic. And our class structure, both.
Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate on that? Your financial status went down?
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. And then you say lower in the class structure?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that?
Mr. Pic. I would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on Alvez.
Mr. Jenner. While your father was alive?
Mr. Pic. And, being we moved to Bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, I think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, two class structures dropped, something like that.
Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious of that even as a 10-year-old?
Mr. Pic. Well, I realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.
Mr. Pic. Well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with our own kind, so to speak. I had no feelings whatsoever. I mean, we enjoyed that place. They were rather strict but we enjoyed it. We had quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. We would sneak out of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. But Robert and I enjoyed it.
Mr. Jenner. I am thinking more of your relations with your mother. Was her personality affected by the death of your stepfather?
Mr. Pic. Probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as the oldest and things like this. When we were in Bethlehem we didn't see that much of her.
Mr. Jenner. I see.
Mr. Pic. Maybe once every 2 weeks, that would be the most often. Maybe once in a while she would drop around.
Mr. Jenner. While you were at Bethlehem did you visit the Murrets?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; several times, lots of times. You see the home once or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in New Orleans. We would get on the rides and naturally the Murrets were right there, and so we would rent bikes for free. It was on the home and I would ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did Robert. Whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there.
Mr. Jenner. While at least through the Bethlehem Orphanage period your present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a reasonably happy life?
Mr. Pic. We enjoyed it.
Mr. Jenner. Like all children you accommodated yourself to the circumstances?
Mr. Pic. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Well, I think probably a good new start off point is Mr. Ekdahl. Tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance was at that time, what your mother's was?
Mr. Pic. Okay.
Mr. Jenner. Give times as best you can.
Mr. Pic. If you can date for me when I had my appendix out I can practically date for you Mr. Ekdahl's——
Mr. Jenner. I am afraid I can't. Were you at Bethlehem Orphanage?
Mr. Pic. Yes; I was at Bethlehem so it would be either 1943 or 1944, and I am sure she was at Pittsburgh at that time.
Mr. Jenner. Pittsburgh Plate?
Mr. Pic. Right. And it was right after I had my appendix out that he appeared on the scene. And she visited us more often when she was going with him.
Mr. Jenner. And she brought him with her, did she?
Mr. Pic. Yes; he had the car.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, did your mother have an automobile during this period following your stepfather's death?
Mr. Pic. I don't think so, sir.
Mr. Jenner. But Mr. Ekdahl did have an automobile?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he had a 1938 Buick.
Mr. Jenner. And your mother visited you more often?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. And they on weekends took us to Covington. I remember once, it may have been more.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I wanted to ask you about that. While your stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit Covington?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. Jenner. Covington, as I understand it, Covington, La., is sort of a summer resort area, is it not?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it is on the—it is north of New Orleans on the northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain, and the Murrets used to go to Mandeville, which is about 30 miles closer to New Orleans than Covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the summer.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the names of any of those people that you—whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during the summer period?
Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at these tourist places. We were never at anybody's home. The Murrets were, I believe, at somebody's home in Mandeville. They had a large house there.
Mr. Jenner. Does Mrs. Benny C-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to you?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. At 600 West 24th Street, Covington, familiar to you?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Does the address 311 Vermont stimulate your recollection over in Covington?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. That may have been the street we lived on when we went there in 1946, I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I ask you to relate the circumstances respecting Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr. Pic. Well, in June 1944, we were removed from Bethlehem, and——
Mr. Jenner. Did you know about that in advance? Were you aware you were going to be removed and why?
Mr. Pic. I don't remember how much in advance we knew this. We knew maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time.
Mr. Jenner. Or maybe the more important thing is why were you being removed from Bethlehem? What were the circumstances of bringing that about?
Mr. Pic. Well, she was marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and if you had two parents they wouldn't allow you to stay at Bethlehem.
Mr. Jenner. She was not yet married to him?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Didn't marry him until the 5th of March 1945?
Mr. Pic. That is about right, sir.
Mr. Jenner. So you were removed in June or May 1944, and the record shows in June. Describe Mr. Ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have a recollection?
Mr. Pic. He was——
Mr. Jenner. Who was he? Who did you understand he was?
Mr. Pic. He was an electrical engineer. His home was in Boston, Mass., somewhere around there. He was described to us as a Yankee, of course. Rather tall, I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore glasses, very nice man.
Mr. Jenner. Very nice man. I take it he was older than your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit.
Mr. Jenner. A man of at least, apparently of considerably better means than your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Than you boys had been accustomed to?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What about his health, what did you understand as to that?
Mr. Pic. I have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at that time, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I see. When you were taken from Bethlehem Orphanage in June of 1944, where did you go?
Mr. Pic. Dallas, Tex., sir.
Mr. Jenner. And do you recall where you lived in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. Pic. I remember what the house looks like, sir. I don't remember the address. You can probably refresh me on that.
Mr. Jenner. I will do so and I want to make it accurate. 4801 Victor was the address.
Mr. Pic. That sounds familiar.
Mr. Jenner. In Dallas. Would you please describe that 4801 Victor Street home?
Mr. Pic. It was white, two story.
Mr. Jenner. Frame, brick?
Mr. Pic. Frame. I think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. I am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. We lived on the lower right, in boxcar-type rooms.
Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Pic. Well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, kitchen.
Mr. Jenner. One lined the other, you mean?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I see. With a long hallway to connect it; is that it?
Mr. Pic. The hall ran into each room as you walked by it.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; you lived there with your mother, with Lee, and with Robert?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. At the outset?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection where he lived? First, was he in Dallas?
Mr. Pic. I think he was in Fort Worth, sir. And he used to come over to Dallas to see us. Is that right?
Mr. Jenner. I think that is right. I can't answer.
Mr. Pic. Okay.
Mr. Jenner. That was one of the reasons why I asked my first question.
Mr. Pic. I think that is the way the setup was, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I think that is so but I don't know. He would come over from Fort Worth and visit you?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You boys, when you reached Dallas in 1944, you entered school, grammar school at that time, did you?
Mr. Pic. Robert—just a moment, sir; I remember I attended a summer school session of the 6th grade. Robert may have. I don't really remember. I think he did.
Mr. Jenner. We are in the summer of 1944?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we went to summer school. I did, I know. I think he may have.
Mr. Jenner. Do you remember that it was the Davy Crockett——
Mr. Pic. No, sir; it was not the Davy Crockett. It was another school. Davy Crockett is where we entered in September. We meanwhile went to summer school.
Mr. Pic. If you can give me a map of Dallas?
Mr. Jenner. You never heard of it?
Mr. Pic. Give me a map of Texas and I can show you where approximately the school was and I will show you where it was.
Mr. Jenner. You did, after that summer school period in the summer of 1944, enter grammar school in Dallas?
Mr. Pic. That is right. Davy Crockett Elementary School. I entered the 7th grade and Robert entered the 5th.
Mr. Jenner. Let's see, Lee is now almost 5 years old. Did he enter Davy Crockett at that time?
Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, no, sir.
Mr. Jenner. At that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. All right, you and Robert then entered Davy Crockett?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You continued on at Davy Crockett in the fall semester?
Mr. Pic. Just a moment.
Mr. Jenner. Yes?
Mr. Pic. This house we went to in Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. My mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one side of it.
Mr. Jenner. It was a duplex?
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. Myrtle Evans testified that she recalled visiting you, the family, on a trip she made to Dallas on one occasion, on a buying trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, two-place houses. To me they are duplexes.
Mr. Pic. Right; duplex.
Mr. Jenner. So her recollection is fairly good then. Does that affect your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it was a two-apartment building?
Mr. Pic. I am pretty sure it was four apartments.
Mr. Jenner. Okay; go ahead.
Mr. Pic. Well, I was under the impression and always have been that she owned the house, and there was some arrangement with Mr. Ekdahl as to how she got it or something. She was renting to one couple upstairs, I know; is this right?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. We are in Davy Crockett Elementary School, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Carry on.
Mr. Pic. Well, that would be September 1944. In the summer of 1945 she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think you dated that as March or April.
Mr. Jenner. She married him, in fact, on May 7, 1945. I said March before; I misspoke. It was May 7, 1945.
Mr. Pic. I have got summer. It is pretty good.
Mr. Jenner. Did he then move into the 4801 Victor Place?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came back and moved in.
Mr. Jenner. In the summer of 1945 did you and Robert continue on at—through that summer in Dallas?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That following September, however, you transferred to some other school; did you not?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school session ended in 1945. I knew before we left Davy Crockett we were going.
Mr. Jenner. What was the name of that?
Mr. Pic. In September 1945, sir, Robert and I entered Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, military school for boys, Port Gibson, Miss.
Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of that—that that was forthcoming?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; as early as May 1945 I think.
Mr. Jenner. And what were the circumstances?
Mr. Pic. Mr. Ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding school.
Mr. Jenner. I exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of your mother's dated February 1, 1945, to the Bethlehem Orphanage, John Pic Exhibit No. 4 in which your mother is petitioning the Bethlehem Orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage.
Mr. Pic. I don't think I was aware of this letter.
Mr. Jenner. You were not aware?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. So circumstances that you can recall now of the possible relationship between your mother and Ekdahl that might have led to her seeking to do this?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. She says in her letter she is thinking in terms of returning you to Bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with her husband when she does marry him—that is Mr. Ekdahl. There was no discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject?
Mr. Pic. Not returning to Bethlehem, no, sir; not that I remember. I have to find Victor Street and from there I can just about guess where the school was. I am lost on this map. I can't find Victor Street and where I lived.
Mr. Jenner. Was Davy Crockett Grammar School near your home at 4801 Victor Street?
Mr. Pic. About three blocks, sir. Three long blocks.
Mr. Jenner. Describe that neighborhood to us.
Mr. Pic. I think it would be middle class.
Mr. Jenner. A level up from what you had been accustomed back in New Orleans?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. There were fine brick homes; in fact, I had a paper route out there that I delivered, and easily middle class. Maybe some upper middle class.
Mr. Jenner. Was your life there pleasant?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And when Mr. Ekdahl moved in were the relationships generally among all, now five of you, pleasant?
Mr. Pic. Between Mr. Ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. I think there were some arguments between Mr. Ekdahl and my mother from time to time.
Mr. Jenner. You were aware of those?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. I am going to need a map with a listing of the schools. This one doesn't seem to have one. This summer school was about a good 2 miles away. We walked it in the morning.
Mr. Jenner. You and Robert?
Mr. Pic. I think me and Robert. We had other friends that we went to school with.
Mr. Jenner. Of course.
Mr. Pic. And there were always a group of us. I don't remember if Robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth.
Mr. Jenner. I see. When you came around to the fall of 1945, however, you entered the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; in fact, the trip to Chamberlain-Hunt was a side trip because Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and Lee were on their way to Boston to visit his folks. And so they dropped us off at the school and then proceeded to Boston.
Mr. Jenner. Was that a motor trip?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was in a 1938 Buick.
Mr. Jenner. You remained at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy except for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long?
Mr. Pic. Well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. I have got a whole bunch of goodies while I was at Chamberlain-Hunt.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Pic. During Christmas vacation of 1945 Robert and I received money to go home for the Christmas holidays. We were to take the train from Vicksburg, Miss., to Shreveport, La. These were instructions and when we arrived at Shreveport, we were to wait for Mr. Ekdahl to pick us up. We arrived and he wasn't there. So I think we waited around, I have an estimate of between 1 and 2 hours, and then he showed up. He then drove us to Fort Worth, Benbrook, Tex., and we had a house about 15 miles below Fort Worth in Benbrook, it was way out. It wasn't the same Benbrook house, it was further. This was a brick house.
Mr. Jenner. The first house in Benbrook?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Had you known the family had moved to Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; because we was writing.
Mr. Jenner. Because of correspondence?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. This was your first view of that house?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us what it was; describe it to us?
Mr. Pic. It was rather isolated on one of the main highways. In fact, I just drove that way recently and I couldn't find the place. When I went up to Fort Worth in 1962 I was looking for the house, I couldn't find it.
Mr. Jenner. Was it Granbury Road, Box 567, Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that sounds familiar. This was a brick house, with quite a bit of ground. I think way back they told us that one of the Roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how I remember. We arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why we were so late. One reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy fog, and I informed her we had to wait a while for Mr. Ekdahl, and she kind of hinted to me, I think I was 15 at the time, did I see another woman or was there anything shady about it or something. That is all I have to say about that. She was under the impression years later, she told me that he had met some woman in Shreveport and they were having some fun.
Mr. Jenner. You were in Benbrook, Tex., then for the Christmas holiday?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You and Robert?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Lee was living with Mr. Ekdahl and your mother at the Benbrook, Tex., home out on the outskirts of Fort Worth; I guess this is——
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And you returned after the Christmas holiday to——
Mr. Pic. It would be January 1946 we returned to, back to Chamberlain-Hunt.
Mr. Jenner. Did you return home at all from then on until the summer of 1946?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Where were you during the summer of 1946?
Mr. Pic. In the summer of 1946, Robert and I were informed that we would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. Well, school let out in May and I think summer session starts in June, so there was a waiting period of about 2 to 3 weeks, so we just stayed there. This suited us fine. We really liked the school.
Sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us that her and Mr. Ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with Lee, of course, and she was going to take us to Covington where we would stay the summer. We had—the commandant of the school was an attorney, and I think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding or something. She talked to him about it, I know. His name was Farrell, Herbert D. Farrell. He was commandant of the school. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. Jenner. Not that I know of.
Mr. Pic. A real nice man, too. She had the car.
Mr. Jenner. The 1938 Buick?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. She had it.
Mr. Jenner. Had she taken a home or a house in Covington?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. When we arrived there she looked for a house, and there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown area that we stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this area. That address I don't remember.
Mr. Jenner. Does the address, the street Vermont Street refresh your recollection, 311 Vermont?
Mr. Pic. The only thing I remember about the house is a lady next door was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out every morning chasing them with a broom.
Mr. Jenner. The squirrels?
Mr. Pic. The squirrels. This was a one-story brick house, and we lived on the right side.
Mr. Jenner. You stayed there throughout the summer?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you return to Chamberlain-Hunt that fall?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we returned to Chamberlain-Hunt in September 1946. Then for the Christmas holidays, 1946, 1947, we returned to Covington where she and Lee still were, and spent those holidays there. During those holidays we made one trip to New Orleans with this other boy who lived in Covington also that we went to school with, and they were driving to New Orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to New Orleans and visited the Murrets a day or so. I think it was 1 day.
Mr. Jenner. Did your mother accompany you?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Had Lee entered grammar school at this time?
Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Our records show that he entered——
Mr. Pic. He probably did.
Mr. Jenner. He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January 23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School.
Mr. Pic. Probably.
Mr. Jenner. Is that your impression at the time that he was in school, he is now 7 years old?
Mr. Pic. I think he had to be in school or they came and got him. My next note says that sometime between January 1947 until May 1947 Mr. Ekdahl and my mother were reunited. Robert and I——
Mr. Jenner. Had she returned to——
Mr. Pic. To Fort Worth. She didn't return to Fort Worth. They moved to Fort Worth. We had never been to Fort Worth before that except in Benbrook.
Mr. Jenner. I see. This was from Benbrook, Tex., to Fort Worth?
Mr. Pic. Right. This address I don't remember, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Does the address 1505 Eighth Avenue, Fort Worth, refresh your recollection?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is it.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Pic. OK. During that summer her and Mr. Ekdahl had their ins and outs.
Mr. Jenner. You were home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. Now let's go back further than that. When we first got there I got a job for the summer at Walgreen's, and I worked there for a couple of weeks before they fired me.
Mr. Jenner. You are now 15 years old?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. And while I was working there I met this other boy, his name was Sammy, his last name I don't remember, he was from California. He was working in Walgreen's in Fort Worth, also. So, after I lost my job at Walgreen's I got this other job, assistant manager of Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor which was on Eighth Avenue, about 6 blocks from the house.
Mr. Jenner. Describe that house, please.
Mr. Pic. It was the second house from the corner. On the corner lived the McLeans who was an attorney and I think he was her attorney or his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. They had a couple of boys we became friendly with. The house itself was a brick, I remember brick with a garage in the back. I think there was an upstairs or side.
Mr. Jenner. Describe the neighborhood, please.
Mr. Pic. I would say it would be middle class.
Mr. Jenner. It was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at 4801 Victor in Dallas?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. I was assistant manager of this Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor.
Mr. Jenner. What was Robert doing?
Mr. Pic. Nothing.
Mr. Jenner. He didn't work?
Mr. Pic. I don't think so.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. That is right, he was playing around with girls at that time.
Like I said, my mother and Mr. Ekdahl were having problems. It would seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave and come back. Well, it seems one night, as I was returning from work, I think we closed the store about 10 o'clock, Mr. Ekdahl and she drove up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were going downtown to the Worth Hotel. This was one of their reunions, and this was one of their longer separation periods.
So, I went back and I told Lee and Robert, and this seemed to really elate Lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back together. Mr. Ekdahl, while Robert and I were at the academy would write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. He would send us a poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell. Well——
Mr. Jenner. I—what is your impression of Mr. Ekdahl, did Lee like him?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. That is your definite impression that he liked him.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think Lee found in him the father he never had. He had treated him real good and I am sure that Lee felt the same way, I know he did. He felt the same way about it, because Mr. Ekdahl treated all of us like his own children.
Mr. Jenner. There appears to be in the file at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy a letter from Mr. Ekdahl to your—to you boys dated August 1946, carrying a return address of the Fayette Hotel on Third Street of Fort Worth.
Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. This would be at the time when your mother was living in Covington. During that period.
Mr. Pic. I didn't know about it.
Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of it?
Mr. Pic. I don't know where Mr. Ekdahl was when she was in Covington. I know he was in the Fort Worth-Dallas area is all I knew.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother and Ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back together again, more friendly?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I mentioned it because it impressed Lee.
Mr. Jenner. I see.
Mr. Pic. I think it impressed him more than it did either of the older boys.
Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur during that summer?
Mr. Pic. A whole bunch of stuff.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Pic. I think this is the same summer when we made the raid. I don't know if you know about the raid or not.
Mr. Jenner. I don't think so.
Mr. Pic. Well, this guy Sammy that I knew had another—knew a couple, a young married couple named Marvin and Goldie, I don't remember their last names, sir, and Sammy and I were friends, Sammy lived in a downtown hotel, and Marvin and Goldie had a house somewhere in the Fort Worth area. So we became friendly the four of us, and then they would come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. Well, after they broke up again, after this last incident.
Mr. Jenner. This is still during the summer of 1947?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had strong suspicions that Mr. Ekdahl was seeing another woman and she was following him, I don't know how. I know she had the lead, she knew where the woman lived and everything.
So, one night Marvin, Goldie, Sammy, my mother and I all piled into this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and Sammy acted as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "Telegram" for this woman, whoever she was. I don't remember the name. When she opened the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a nightgown negligee, Mr. Ekdahl was seated in the living room in his shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. She's got him now and all this stuff. That is about it. Well, that is all to that incident.
In September, Robert—well, in August—Robert and I in September returned to Chamberlain-Hunt, this is September 1947. During the school year 1947–48 I was informed about divorce proceedings. Christmas holidays, 1947, Robert and I returned to the house on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth and those are the pictures of Lee sitting on the bike, it is in that time period.
Mr. Jenner. Let's identify those. I hand you Pic Exhibit Nos. 52 and 53.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. This is the front lawn of the house on Eighth Avenue and the white house in the background would be that of the attorney Mr. McLean.
Mr. Jenner. Did you take those pictures?
Mr. Pic. Sir?
Mr. Jenner. Did you take the pictures?
Mr. Pic. My brother Robert and I each had a box camera we received—no, we had the box camera before that. We took it with our box camera.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer those exhibits in evidence.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 52 and 53 were marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Was Mr. Ekdahl living in the home at that time?
Mr. Pic. We did not see him during those holidays.
Mr. Jenner. You returned to the academy following the Christmas vacation?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you continued on through the end of that school year, did you?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to May 1948.
Mr. Jenner. Give me your impressions of Lee, he is now getting to be 8 or 9 years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at school.
Mr. Pic. Well, sir; when we were home, Robert and I, of course, that was the only time we seen Lee, he would tag along with us to the movies and everything. He did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and so forth. I don't remember observing him with the other children. I had my own problems at the age of 14. We did know that during the school year of 1947–48, divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly.
We returned from Chamberlain-Hunt in May 1948, to a house I don't remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class again.
Mr. Jenner. The house at——
Mr. Pic. It was right slap next to the railroad tracks.
Mr. Jenner. 3300 Willing Street, Fort Worth.
Mr. Pic. If that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. I remember we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. She had moved in this house a couple or 3 months prior to us returning from school.
Mr. Jenner. The divorce had taken place in the meantime?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; it had not.
Mr. Jenner. Was Mr. Ekdahl in this lower class house?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see him during that summer?
Mr. Pic. No, sir—yes, sir. But not prior to May 1948. I seen him later during the summer.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. You and Robert were home during that summer of 1948, were you?
Mr. Pic. May I continue?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. When we returned home I seen this house and my first impressions were that we are back to where we were. Lee had a dog that a woman had given him, I think it is the same dog we have pictures of, and I kind of had the feeling that our days at Chamberlain-Hunt were ended even though it didn't come officially. Then sometime in the summer of 1948, the divorce took place in Tarrant County, city of Fort Worth. I had to testify. I think they attempted to put Lee on the stand but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age.
I don't remember my testimony completely. I do remember that my mother had made the statement that if Mr. Ekdahl ever hit her again that she would send me in there to beat him up or, something which I doubt that I could have done.
I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is when she purchased the house in Benbrook, Tex., the little house.
Mr. Jenner. Describe that house.
Mr. Pic. It was an L-shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this first house?
Mr. Pic. There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would go pick up the mail at the post office.
Mr. Jenner. The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned heretofore?
Mr. Pic. Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it.
Mr. Jenner. Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook.
Mr. Pic. That is the one further south of Fort Worth.
Mr. Jenner. That is the first one?
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer of 1948 is different from the first one?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. Jenner. You can't remember the street address?
Mr. Pic. There was no street address. This was the first and only house built there.
Mr. Jenner. I see.
Mr. Pic. They just built up this area and she got the very first house. Two pictures there, Lee and Lee's dog and this is taken at the house in Benbrook, that house.
Mr. Jenner. Would you select those, please?
Mr. Pic. These were taken in Covington.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. Those were taken when?
Mr. Pic. It would be the summer of 1946 at Covington, La.
Mr. Jenner. And those pictures are pictures of whom?
Mr. Pic. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. Holding a fish.
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51 were marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. The witness has now handed me two pictures, Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. The other shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and an automobile. Could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? You are looking at Exhibit what now?
Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car. This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it. The house in the background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you want to call it, and laundromat in the area. This is where we did all of our food buying.
Mr. Jenner. Shopping?
Mr. Pic. As far as the neighborhood was concerned.
Mr. Jenner. There is some writing at the top of the picture; what does it say?
Mr. Pic. This says "Blackie, 1949."
Mr. Jenner. Blackie was the name of the dog?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was.
Mr. Pic. This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house.
Mr. Jenner. The house in which you lived?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.)
Mr. Pic. After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex., and then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex.
At this time Robert and I were informed that we would not return to Chamberlain-Hunt in the fall. This, I think, was the first time that I actually recall any hostility towards my mother.
Mr. Jenner. On your part?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to go back. I had 2 more years in high school and I was going to be in the 11th grade and I did want to finish there.
Mr. Jenner. How did Robert react to that?
Mr. Pic. He felt the same way, sir. He wanted to go back. But we were informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for us to go back. In fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family supplement its income.
Mr. Jenner. That is withdraw from school entirely?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was 16 at this time. In September, Lee and Robert returned to school, and I went to work. I obtained a job at Everybody's Department Store which belonged to Leonard Bros. I was a shoe stock boy at the salary of $25 a week.
Mr. Jenner. Did you pay some of that money to your mother?
Mr. Pic. I think at least $15 out of every pay check I did.
Mr. Jenner. $15 a week?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think my take-home pay was $22.50 after taxes. Which left me $7.50 to ride back and forth on the bus with.
Mr. Jenner. Did you continue to live in this home in Benbrook?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; about the same time that I went to work and Lee and Robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at 7408 Ewing.
Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mr. Pic. That is right, sir. It was just impossible for her and I to go to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on Ewing they could walk to school. In fact, I left for work earlier than she did, a couple of hours, in fact.
Mr. Jenner. Had Lee attended school in Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the summer and moved out in the early fall.
Mr. Jenner. Had he attended a day school or a nursery school in Benbrook, Tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years?
Mr. Pic. During the summer, sir, my mother worked at Leonard Bros., the three boys were left alone at home.
Mr. Jenner. What about the previous years?
Mr. Pic. She didn't work the previous years. She was still married to Mr. Ekdahl.
Mr. Jenner. I appreciate that. I wonder if he went to nursery school—when you first went to Benbrook, Tex., when you were on Granbury Road?
Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know that, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You have no impression?
Mr. Pic. That I don't remember.
Mr. Jenner. All right. You now started to work in the fall of 1948.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. The family moves into Fort Worth at 7408 Ewing Street.
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And Lee and Robert enter school in Fort Worth.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Is that correct? Do you remember the school, one would be a grammar school and one a junior high school.
Mr. Pic. I think Robert went to Sterling Junior High School. In fact, she would drive him there in the morning, and Lee was going to Ridglea, West Ridglea Elementary School, something like that.
Mr. Jenner. What happened to Lee? You were working.
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. Robert was in school.
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. And Lee was in school.
Mr. Pic. Right.
Mr. Jenner. Did Robert come home from school to take care of Lee when he finished?
Mr. Pic. Lee returned home before Robert did, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What did he do?
Mr. Pic. I have no idea, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother was at work?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. He would just come home and wait until somebody came home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; there was no TV at that time so——
Mr. Jenner. Was he—what about his habits in that respect? Did—your mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house until she arrived?
Mr. Pic. I am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. He was not the type to goof off in things like this.
Mr. Jenner. Did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy reading at this stage of his life?
Mr. Pic. He always read a lot, sir.
Mr. Jenner. He did?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What about his—was he gregarious or not? Did he exhibit tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or the contrary?
Mr. Pic. Not too much, sir. There weren't that many children his age in the neighborhood. In fact, most of them were my age and my brother Robert's.
Mr. Jenner. Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9.
Mr. Pic. We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.
In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. So——
Mr. Jenner. Did you get paid for this service?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.
Mr. Jenner. But you were not in fact 17?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Pic. OK, so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October 1948. I was attached to the 2d, 155th Military Howitzer Battalion, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, I was going to go back to school. So in January 1949 I went back to school and finished my high school education.
Mr. Jenner. To what school did you return?
Mr. Pic. I attended Arlington Heights High School, sir.
Mr. Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you work after school? Did you do anything to supplement your income?
Mr. Pic. I was able to retain my job at Everybody's as a stock boy for about 1 month on this part-time basis but at the end of February they informed me there was no way I could be kept on a part-time basis so I left the job and I then got a job at Burt's shoestore. At Burt's shoestore I was working part time but really making more than full time because I was a stock boy at $15 and all the commissions I could make in their stockroom plus all day Saturday.
Mr. Jenner. Selling shoes?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What was your mother doing at this time?
Mr. Pic. I believe at this time, sir, she was working at Sterling's Department Store in Fort Worth after leaving Leonard Bros., before I left Everybody's, I think.
Mr. Jenner. Was Robert working after school?
Mr. Pic. Yes; he was working at the A & P.
Mr. Jenner. Had he been working at the A & P after school from the previous fall?
Mr. Pic. This would be 1949. February 1949, and I am sure he was working at A & P and going to school at that time, some time during that period. He and I were both working and going to school, both.
So, in January 1949, I returned to high school, Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, Tex., and was a junior, 11th grade there.
The school session ended and then I attended summer school to make up for what I had lost at Paschal High School, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. Jenner. P-a-s-k-a-l?
Mr. Pic. P-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. I still had the job at Burt's. So I attended summer school at Paschal, the summer of 1949. September of 1949——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, what did Lee do now? Had he been in school in the fall and winter of 1948 and the winter and spring of 1949?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, vacation is here. What did he do during the summer? You went to school, and you worked at Burt's, what was he doing?
Mr. Pic. Playing around home. And going to this Camp Carter that we ran across in the letter, I guess, I don't remember.
Mr. Jenner. What was Robert doing during the summer?
Mr. Pic. He was working at the A & P, sir; I believe.
Mr. Jenner. Were both of you boys contributing to the support of your mother during this period?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Were you continuing to give your mother the $15 a week you had started to give her in the fall of 1948?
Mr. Pic. Well, as far as I am concerned, being that I had no set income, I worked on a guaranteed salary of $15 plus commissions my pay might fluctuate between $20, $35 a week depending on how good a week I had. And I pro-rated this accordingly with her.
Mr. Jenner. And was Robert contributing something as well?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. Jenner. Lee didn't work at any time?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever recall Lee up through this time through the summer of 1949 doing any work?
Mr. Pic. No.
Mr. Jenner. He is now 10 years old?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. He didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a 10-year-old sometimes does?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. We have now reached the fall of 1949.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; September 1949, I decided—well, let's go back to when I went back to high school.
Mr. Jenner. All right. It is January of 1949.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Lee was at Ridglea.
Mr. Pic. OK. I figured since I was smart enough to decide to go back to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it I felt it was my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so I decided since that is the way she felt and that was the way I felt I would sign my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything.
My hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me to work and make money, and I knew an education, as much as I could get would be the best thing for me.
Since I took on the responsibility of going back to school I figured I could take care of the rest of it and I wanted nothing from her in this regard. This I did. I signed my own report card, wrote my own notes when I played hooky and missed school.
Mr. Jenner. Signing her name?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; so in——
Mr. Jenner. By the way what kind of a student were you?
Mr. Pic. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I had a B or C average at Arlington Heights.
My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better.
Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called distributive education which means you go to school and work part time you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high class, the majority of them.
I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard, and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas holidays 1949, I was coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I quit school and joined the Coast Guard.
At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it.
So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother until October 1950, 9 months later.
Mr. Jenner. October of 1959?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; 1950. 1950.
Mr. Jenner. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee returned to school in the fall of 1949?
Mr. Pic. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then?
Mr. Pic. As far as I know, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What was his general attitude and his activities during this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949.
Mr. Pic. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an 8–9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my mind and other things like that, you know.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. To be honest with you.
Mr. Jenner. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that time?
Mr. Pic. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would remember that better than I did.
Mr. Jenner. I don't know whether he mentioned that.
Mr. Pic. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of 1950.
Mr. Pic. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. Until when?
Mr. Pic. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950.
Mr. Jenner. What was that occasion?
Mr. Pic. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir.
Mr. Jenner. How long were you home on leave?
Mr. Pic. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16, something like that, about 2 weeks.
Mr. Jenner. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that time?
Mr. Pic. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was—well, I come home with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of my own.
Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition.
Mr. Pic. Yes, very nice man.
Mr. Jenner. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us.
Mr. Jenner. On the same side of the street?
Mr. Pic. Same side.
Mr. Jenner. Hiram Conway.
Mr. Pic. Hiram P. Conway.
Mr. Jenner. You then returned to the service?
Mr. Pic. Yes. I reported back to my ship.
Mr. Jenner. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert?
Mr. Pic. August 1952, sir.
Mr. Jenner. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Mr. Jenner. At Ridglea Elementary?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Mr. Jenner. Robert was still in school. He is now 16½ years of age?
Mr. Pic. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember. I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave.
Mr. Jenner. What was he doing?
Mr. Pic. A & P, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact that your father contributed to your support during all the years actually until you reached your 18th birthday?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave.
Mr. Jenner. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of that contribution was?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I wasn't.
Mr. Jenner. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making contributions?
Mr. Pic. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was making contributions?
Mr. Pic. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments stopped right then and there.
Mr. Jenner. The fact is that they did.
Mr. Pic. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Jenner. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to your mother?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in the service?
Mr. Pic. Quite frequently, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount.
Mr. Pic. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you send any of the excess when you got it?
Mr. Pic. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a sailor?
Mr. Jenner. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am doing is seeking some facts.
Mr. Pic. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes.
Mr. Jenner. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2½. Would you identify that, please?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2½ as the picture states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr. Jenner. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am sure of that.
Mr. Jenner. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which—would you identify that?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr. Jenner. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken?
Mr. Pic. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age?
Mr. Pic. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade.
Mr. Jenner. That would be when you were living in Dallas?
Mr. Pic. Fort Worth, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one.
Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late 1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my wife and I in August of 1952.
Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. Jenner. It is after they returned to New Orleans?
Mr. Pic. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952?
Mr. Pic. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He was in the service when they came.
Mr. Jenner. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his majority.
Mr. Pic. So that would be April 1952.
Mr. Jenner. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just before he entered the service?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You came to know about that?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By what means?
Mr. Pic. By way of my mother, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right, what was it?
Mr. Pic. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her, and she conned him out of it.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that subject at anytime?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952.
Mr. Pic. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression and also my wife's—meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are interested in this.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am.
Mr. Pic. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman.
Mr. Jenner. You had met her after you had entered the service and while you were stationed in the New York area?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living where?
Mr. Pic. 325 East 92d Street, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have any children at that time?
Mr. Pic. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did.
Mr. Jenner. Your first child was born?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr.
Mr. Jenner. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee arrived.
Mr. Pic. Before, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they arrived.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to New York?
Mr. Pic. The impression that my wife and myself had was they were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying with them, so we had the room for them.
Mr. Jenner. But that was your mother's apartment or home?
Mr. Pic. Mother-in-law's.
Mr. Jenner. Was it an apartment or a home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment.
Mr. Jenner. One room in back of the other?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a period during the summer that was your definite impression.
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right, what happened?
Mr. Pic. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with them.
Mr. Jenner. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean you took Lee.
Mr. Pic. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a week or so, I think.
Mr. Jenner. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but you said you took leave.
Mr. Pic. Leave.
Mr. Jenner. You took 30 days leave.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; maybe a week or two.
Mr. Jenner. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be with them during that 2-week period.
Mr. Pic. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August 1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me. We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other excursions we made.
Mr. Jenner. Go ahead.
Mr. Pic. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little bit. We didn't really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, but she was due back in a matter of a month or so.
During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I put my wife before my mother any day.
Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards hostility against my wife.
My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an impossibility.
It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have them, and took him up to enroll in this school.
Mr. Jenner. You did?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him.
Mr. Ely. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for finishing high school somehow?
Mr. Pic. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's being given some sort of mental tests?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a Lutheran denominational school?
Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet.
Mr. Jenner. I see. All right.
Mr. Pic. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the TV set one day, and—between my wife and my mother. It seems that according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related to me.
Mr. Jenner. When the facts were related to you was your mother present, Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present?
Mr. Pic. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked my mother about it.
Mr. Jenner. Your mother was home?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she was home.
Mr. Jenner. You went and spoke with your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you?
Mr. Pic. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather believed my wife rather than my mother.
Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to Lee about the incident?
Mr. Pic. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting thrown out of the house as they put it.
When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see them from time to time thereafter?
Mr. Pic. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there and ask me something about it.
Mr. Jenner. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward others?
Mr. Pic. He was definitely the boss.
Mr. Jenner. Now, tell us on what you base that?
Mr. Pic. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got along very well. She always reminded me of this.
Mr. Jenner. Your wife reminded you of that?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee.
Mr. Jenner. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in your home, then the attitude changed?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with Lee been?
Mr. Pic. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and spend as much time as I could with him.
Mr. Jenner. You found him to have—he was interested in that sort of thing?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, anything like that he liked.
Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished?
Mr. Pic. Not until the knife pulling incident.
Mr. Jenner. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion?
Mr. Pic. I attempted to, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time?
Mr. Pic. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter.
Mr. Jenner. He would not.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me.
Mr. Jenner. There was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Jenner. It was a marked one?
Mr. Pic. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I can relate that even more so.
Mr. Jenner. Would you do that?
Mr. Pic. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came home from work.
Mr. Jenner. They had moved out before you came home from work?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way."
Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts.
Mr. Pic. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me.
Mr. Jenner. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among brothers?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What was your nickname?
Mr. Pic. Pic.
Mr. Jenner. What was your brother Robert's nickname?
Mr. Pic. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think that hung on a while after that.
Mr. Jenner. What nickname did he have before that?
Mr. Pic. None that I recall.
Mr. Jenner. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy?
Mr. Pic. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why they called him that.
Mr. Jenner. I see, size.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever have a nickname?
Mr. Pic. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you as older brothers?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in your heart for your brother Lee?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you felt he reciprocated that?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And the relationship between yourself and your brother Robert was cordial?
Mr. Pic. They always have, and still are, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I may say to you that he so testified. All right.
Mr. Pic. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.
Mr. Jenner. To visit whom?
Mr. Pic. Sir?
Mr. Jenner. To visit whom?
Mr. Pic. To visit my mother and my brother.
Mr. Jenner. Your brother?
Mr. Pic. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. Did your brother's wife accompany him?
Mr. Pic. He wasn't married at that time, sir.
Mr. Jenner. He wasn't married?
Mr. Pic. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We visited their apartment in the Bronx.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, where did your brother stay?
Mr. Pic. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New York.
Mr. Jenner. In any event he did not stay with you.
Mr. Pic. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son.
Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and didn't join us whatsoever.
Mr. Jenner. He did not join you for dinner?
Mr. Pic. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife.
Mr. Jenner. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you—he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak with him?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Jenner. Did he answer you?
Mr. Pic. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't interested in anything I had to say.
Mr. Jenner. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening or was it an evening?
Mr. Pic. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son we had to get home.
Mr. Jenner. Was it a Sunday or Saturday?
Mr. Pic. I am sure it was a Sunday. In January 1950——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion?
Mr. Pic. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too much about it. I know he did not eat with us.
Mr. Jenner. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert?
Mr. Pic. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present him and Robert got along real good.
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion.
Mr. Pic. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was completely withdrawn from the crowd.
Mr. Jenner. He withdrew from everybody?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was me, maybe it was both of us.
In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay in rather than quit, and so forth.
Mr. Jenner. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January 1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my wife and I, to see her.
Mr. Jenner. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw her on those occasions?
Mr. Pic. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not elaborate.
Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk to or no one to do anything with."
Mr. Jenner. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with respect to truancy in attendance at school?
Mr. Pic. I am not quite there, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point of January 1953 you were not aware.
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to time during that period?
Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in the Coast Guard.
Mr. Pic. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is that right?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem.
She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. That is all I could suggest.
Mr. Jenner. What was her response to that?
Mr. Pic. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the psychiatrist, he wasn't going.
Mr. Jenner. She had no control over him?
Mr. Pic. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you were quite aware of that, were you?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss that with her?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew.
Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something that had suddenly arisen or——
Mr. Pic. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time went by.
Mr. Jenner. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and take yourself back.
Mr. Pic. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so forth.
Mr. Jenner. What did you and Robert do about it?
Mr. Pic. Not much, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had the love and affection for you?
Mr. Pic. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14–16. There was no big troubles he got into that any kid does.
Mr. Jenner. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, first?
Mr. Pic. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age group.
Mr. Jenner. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out and play with other children?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go out and play.
Mr. Jenner. Was that noticeable to you?
Mr. Pic. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to school, both. I wasn't there to observe this.
Mr. Jenner. I see.
Mr. Pic. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally.
Mr. Jenner. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite headstrong?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty well lost any influence or control over him?
Mr. Pic. That is absolutely true, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January 1953.
Mr. Pic. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of time?
Mr. Pic. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen her on several occasions.
Mr. Jenner. During this——
Mr. Pic. Downtown where she worked.
Mr. Jenner. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer of 1953 or had she changed jobs?
Mr. Pic. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this period of time rather than Lerner's?
Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember, sir.
Mr. Jenner. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection?
Mr. Pic. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them.
Mr. Jenner. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with fellow workers at these various shops?
Mr. Pic. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized answer.
Mr. Jenner. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was.
Mr. Pic. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it.
Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next job was better.
Mr. Jenner. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next date you gave, September of 1953?
Mr. Pic. August-September 1953.
Mr. Jenner. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion with her about Lee?
Mr. Pic. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have anybody to confide in, things like this.
Mr. Jenner. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was working out fine.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't afford to do, sir.
Mr. Jenner. You had a wife and child by that time?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What was your compensation?
Mr. Pic. For what, sir?
Mr. Jenner. In the service at this time.
Mr. Pic. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month.
Mr. Jenner. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And were you contributing to the support of that whole family unit?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Mother-in-law, wife and child?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income tax, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your service your mother as a dependent?
Mr. Pic. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, I don't remember, sir, that incident at all.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953.
Mr. Jenner. Where did her sister live?
Mr. Pic. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at the Naval hospital there for school purposes.
When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address.
Mr. Jenner. Why not?
Mr. Pic. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me and I didn't have too much to say to her.
Mr. Jenner. During this period of time there came about a substantially complete rupture then between yourself and your mother?
Mr. Pic. To a certain degree.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Jenner. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior to that.
Mr. Jenner. You did see him——
Mr. Pic. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother.
Mr. Jenner. I see. All right; go ahead.
Mr. Pic. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we lived there almost 2 years.
I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter Halfmoon, which is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week periods at a time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, and you have the letters referring to this, sir.
It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that my mother called me from New Orleans.
Mr. Jenner. By telephone?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again.
Mr. Jenner. You were then in New York?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine Corps.
Mr. Jenner. How did that come to your attention?
Mr. Pic. My mother informed me of this fact.
Mr. Jenner. By letter?
Mr. Pic. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my mother—let me make sure that date is right—I am fairly certain, sir; that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas holidays of 1958—that she visited us.
Mr. Jenner. She did come to New York?
Mr. Pic. Right. She come to—we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here.
She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth.
Mr. Jenner. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you learned that through correspondence?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. With her.
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people to town and things like this.
Mr. Jenner. I think she was employed for a while in an organization called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization.
Mr. Pic. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was Christmas of 1957, is that right?
Mr. Ely. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon greets people.
Mr. Pic. Is this 1957 when she had that job?
Mr. Jenner. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a position of that character.
Mr. Pic. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the 10th of January, sometime.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What did she say?
Mr. Pic. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the Marine Corps. He just liked it.
Mr. Jenner. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is December of 1957. Was he still in the service?
Mr. Pic. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his wife.
Mr. Jenner. He was discharged in the spring of 1956–1957, rather; and stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while.
Mr. Pic. I don't know that.
Mr. Jenner. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines.
Mr. Pic. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe.
Mr. Ely. 1956.
Mr. Jenner. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, mustered out in 1956?
Mr. Pic. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth.
After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail and every now and then a phone call.
Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left Mitchel and departed cross country.
Mr. Jenner. You and your wife and children?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By what, automobile?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. By this time you owned an automobile?
Mr. Pic. My second one.
Mr. Jenner. Second one?
Mr. Pic. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen.
Mr. Jenner. Where did she reside then?
Mr. Pic. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind of circle or something?
Mr. Jenner. Do you have that?
Mr. Pic. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle, something like that.
Mr. Jenner. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124 West Fifth Street, Fort Worth.
Mr. Pic. That isn't familiar.
Mr. Jenner. It is not familiar?
Mr. Pic. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time. Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West Fifth Street is probably about the same place.
Mr. Jenner. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident occurred?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I am getting to that.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything.
Then the Sunday that we were there—well, prior to this, when we arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth.
Mr. Jenner. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?
Mr. Jenner. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?
Mr. Pic. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. Was your mother working at that time?
Mr. Pic. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I know she was working at a candy counter.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Pic. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was invited to this dinner.
Mr. Jenner. At your brother's?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat. After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me to come get our bags, that we would have to leave.
So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for this when we threw her and Lee out.
I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her, talked to her, anything.
Mr. Jenner. Or seen her.
Mr. Pic. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So, we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Let's suspend for dinner.
Mr. Pic. Could I just add one thing, sir?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Pic. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan.
Mr. Jenner. You were informed by your mother?
Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there.
Mr. Jenner. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was?
Mr. Pic. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10 November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend.
Mr. Jenner. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you were there in 1958?
Mr. Pic. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it.
Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth?
Mr. Pic. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and got them and drove back all in the same trip.
Mr. Jenner. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and came to Fort Worth.
Mr. Pic. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a statement.
Mr. Jenner. What testimony of Marilyn Murret?
Mr. Pic. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in Europe.
Mr. Jenner. Who informed you?
Mr. Pic. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I will go into that right after dinner.
Mr. Pic. All right, sir.
Mr. Jenner. We will suspend until 7:30.
(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)