Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please?

(The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Jenner. Marilyn Murret is your cousin?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to Japan?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you arrived in Japan about when?

Mr. Pic. 10 November 1958, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn Murret, was in Japan?

Mr. Pic. She was not in Japan then, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you stationed?

Mr. Pic. My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, San Francisco, Calif.

Mr. Jenner. You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there?

Mr. Pic. Right. In approximately October–November, early November, the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital, and it had been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to the house the next weekend.

She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe.

We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big show about this.

Mr. Jenner. How did she know that, did she reveal?

Mr. Pic. She had seen him, evidently, when he was first in the Marine Corps. She described him in uniform, and——

Mr. Jenner. You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan?

Mr. Pic. No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. And she had seen him when he first joined the Marine Corps, is my impression, sometime while he was in the Marine Corps and in the States.

Mr. Jenner. You had the impression that Lee had visited their home in New Orleans?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is the impression I got.

Mr. Jenner. Go on.

Mr. Pic. Well, at this time, my mother was still writing to me, I never answered any of her letters. Maybe I would receive a letter from her every once, every 2 or 3 months. I also was aware of the fact that Lee was going to be discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. You became aware of that through what means?

Mr. Pic. The letters I would receive from my mother. She informed me that Marilyn Murret—that Lee upon his discharge had gone to Europe. I asked her how did he ever decide that, and where did he get the money and she said he saved it while he was in the Marine Corps.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say he had gone to Europe?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Her quote, sir, to the best of my knowledge, "Do you know that Lee is in Europe?" I said, "No, I don't know that." I had no way of knowing that. So I started asking her about him, and this is what she told me that Lee had gone to Europe.

It was that night, sir, on the 9 o'clock news that I learned that Lee had defected.

Mr. Jenner. You say 9 o'clock news—was that——

Mr. Pic. Japan time, sir, that night.

Mr. Jenner. I mean, what source was the news?

Mr. Pic. American Armed Forces Network. My wife and I were in bed, and I was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she nudged me and told me, and I said, "No, it couldn't be." So the next day it appeared in the paper.

Mr. Jenner. What paper?

Mr. Pic. The Stars and Stripes, sir. Then I heard it on the radio again the next day. There were a couple or three articles in the Stars and Stripes about his defection. And I reported to the OSI and told them who I was, and I told them who he was. Then I got in contact with the Embassy in Japan.

Mr. Jenner. That is the American Embassy?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and attempted to contact Lee. The only thing I could get out was a telegram. I think my quote in the telegram was "Please reconsider your actions." This, I understand, was delivered to him at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. After this defection I received several——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When you heard this what was your reaction?

Mr. Pic. I didn't believe it. I mean my wife told me it was him, and I think I stayed awake until the 10 o'clock news to hear it and they mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper and that is when I reported to the OSI.

Mr. Jenner. What is OSI?

Mr. Pic. Office of Special Investigator, I believe, for the Air Force.

Mr. Jenner. Well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it was your brother what was your reaction?

Mr. Pic. It was hard to believe. It was just something you never expect.

Mr. Jenner. Had he done or said anything during all your life together which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, ever since he was born and I was old enough to remember, I always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to strike Lee in some way or another, and when this happened I figured this was it. In fact, on the very day of the assassination I was thinking about it when I was getting ready to go to work, and just, I was thinking about him at that time and I figured well, when he defected and came back—that was his big tragedy. I found out it wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give me—elaborate on that. Why did you have a feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great tragedy?

Mr. Pic. I don't know. It was just one of those things I can't explain. I always had this feeling about him. Not as a kid, of course, but in my young adulthood I thought that about him, especially after the incident in New York. I thought this way. I had this feeling.

Mr. Jenner. You had a feeling at any time that he was groping for a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life?

Mr. Pic. I think he resented the fact that he never really had a father, especially after he lost Mr. Ekdahl and his one and only chance to get what he was looking for. Maybe that is why he looked to Robert and I like he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Marilyn Murret again?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she and I never discussed this. Those were the orders of OSI, not to discuss it with anyone. I made them aware of her, her presence in Japan. I don't know if they ever contacted her or not, sir. I told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was in Europe. How she knew, I don't know, sir. And everything I have read states that no one knew he was going.

Mr. Jenner. But she was in your home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The very day that the announcement was made?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That Lee had defected to Russia?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. I had the hi-fi, she liked classical music, and I was playing some of my records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio broadcasts. She came about noon. Maybe it was on prior to this, I don't think so, because at 9 o'clock——

Mr. Jenner. If it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention any defection? All she said to you was, "Did you know that Lee was in Europe?" Is that correct?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir. She didn't specify any country. In fact, I asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. She just knew he was in Europe. She had come from Australia to Japan. I think she may have been in Japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little less probably.

Mr. Jenner. You saw her again after that, did you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she visited our house several times. I think the last time we seen her was about April or May 1960 when she left Japan. We never seen her again. She said she would contact us and tell us when she was leaving, but she never did.

Mr. Jenner. What was your assignment in Japan?

Mr. Pic. I was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did you return to the United States?

Mr. Pic. July 1962, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And to where did you return?

Mr. Pic. To Lackland Air Force Base where I am presently stationed. In Japan, there is more that happened, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I received—I wrote Lee, I mean Robert, and asked him about this. Of course in Japan we didn't get much news and the OSI wouldn't tell me too much. The Embassy, all they confirmed is that he did defect. I guess in a period of 2, 3 months I got information from Robert through several letters. Every time I got some information I went to the OSI about this. It seems there was a letter, I don't remember if Robert had copied it from Lee's letter or he had sent me the original letter. I showed this, I gave it to the OSI. If they gave it back, it is destroyed now, sir. In this letter he said that no one should try to contact him because the American capitalists would be listening over the phone. He mentioned that he had been contemplating this act for quite awhile. That no one knew it. This is all in my OSI report.

And from what other information I had, I received the impression that him turning toward communism or Marxism, whichever you want to call it, took place while he was in Japan and in the Marine Corps, sir, from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own statements.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this time, Sergeant, in all your association with your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward democracy, communism, Marxism, or any other form of government?

Mr. Pic. Sir, the last time he talked to me, I think he was only about 12, 13 years old.

Mr. Jenner. Well, the answer is no?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that is the answer—no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is that there hadn't been any such discussions?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You—I take it from that answer—you never heard him assert any views?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On his part, with respect to that subject matter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

While I was processing to return to the States, I had seen in the paper and everything that Lee was returning to the United States. When I got my assignment to Lackland, the OSI kind of put it to me that if I didn't want to be in the same vicinity as Lee that they could change my orders, and I told them that the United States felt he was reliable enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that I would see no reason to change my assignment. The OSI authorities said there was no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. So I didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these reasons. Being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the time of your return to the United States?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; the only thing I knew about him was what I read in the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child.

Mr. Jenner. When you say newspapers this is the Stars and Stripes?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; Stars and Stripes.

Mr. Jenner. That is before you returned to this country you had read in the Stars and Stripes that he had returned to the United States?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he was on his way, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He was on his way back?

Mr. Pic. He was on his way back at the same time I was on my way back.

Mr. Jenner. You knew he was on his way back, according to the Stars and Stripes, with his wife and child?

Mr. Pic. Yes; sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you arrived at Lackland Air Force Base when?

Mr. Pic. I arrived in the San Antonio area approximately the 21st of July 1962, and got a house, got settled and then I signed in on my base in August. I was permitted 30 days leave, 13 days travel time, which I took advantage of. I think I took 27 days leave. So I started work in August, the latter part of August.

Mr. Jenner. During that period of time of your 30 days' leave, after arriving at Lackland Air Force Base and San Antonio, did you make any attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I called Robert, and we wrote a couple of letters, and he told me Lee was back, and he was living in Dallas and working there, and everything seemed to be okay.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother tell you that Lee, when he returned to this country, had lived with him for a while?

Mr. Pic. I don't know if it was in these conversations. I learned at the Thanksgiving reunion that he did.

Mr. Jenner. Which was Thanksgiving of 1962?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time you saw your brother, I take it, you saw him Thanksgiving 1962?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we arrived at my brother Robert's Thanksgiving Day between about 11:30, 12:30.

Mr. Jenner. In the morning?

Mr. Pic. In the morning. We were to meet Lee and his wife at the Greyhound bus station approximately 2 o'clock. So Robert and I went down to pick him up. We picked them up outside the Greyhound bus station. Whether or not they—we had no way of seeing them getting off a bus. They were at the station when we got there. We did all the friendly sayings and I was——

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what happened now? What was the attitude, what were your impressions?

Mr. Pic. Well, I still was wondering if he was going to have this feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. He introduced me to his wife, and I gave her a kiss, and his child. We got in the car, and he said I hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. At no time did Marina speak any English. She would ask him questions in what I believe was Russian and he would talk back to her in—and talk through.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with him on that subject—where he had learned Russian?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, I knew he had been in Russia over 2 years, so evidently he had learned Russian while there.

Mr. Jenner. There was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to you to ask him about how and when he had learned?

Mr. Pic. I wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you inquire of him as to his life in Russia?

Mr. Pic. We let him do the talking, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he speak of it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Pic. He told us he worked in a factory there.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say what kind of work he did?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of a factory it was?

Mr. Pic. Something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that, I believe. He told me he was making about $80 a month, I think, while he worked there.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that salary? Was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay rent for his quarters?

Mr. Pic. He didn't talk about anything prior to him and Marina being married.

Mr. Jenner. He did not?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of his as to why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of his defection or attempted defection?

Mr. Pic. Per se, no, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You are qualifying that. You say per se.

Mr. Pic. Right. He did mention that because of his actions he had received a dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps and that he was attempting to get this changed to an honorable status.

Mr. Jenner. Did he appear bitter about it?

Mr. Pic. He showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad conduct, something like that. I think it was dishonorable. He showed it to me.

Mr. Jenner. What was his—what impression did you have as to his overall attitude? What impression did you have as to his state of mind?

Mr. Pic. He impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't really enjoy his stay in Russia. He commented about the hard life they had there.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about that?

Mr. Pic. What did he say, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. A shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a lot of cabbage. He did say that the U.S. Government gave him the money to come back on. He was in the process of paying them back. In fact, he let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay the Government back.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say "regardless of anything else, I am going to pay them back"? On what do you base that conclusory statement?

Mr. Pic. Well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the Government back.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about his financial situation?

Mr. Pic. He didn't give me—this is what he gave me for an address. He said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. They had no television, no radio, no coffee pot. In fact, we brought him a coffee pot for a present. Gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a stuffed animal of some type.

Mr. Jenner. Thanksgiving Day you did this?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How come you brought him a coffee pot?

Mr. Pic. I was going to give him a present.

Mr. Jenner. It is the coffee pot that interests me. Here you hadn't seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift—why were you——

Mr. Pic. Well, my wife being a Yankee——

Mr. Jenner. Why did you bring him a coffee pot?

Mr. Pic. My wife in her Yankee ways believed when you don't see people a long time you bring them a gift. It's just a token. We brought my brother Robert a present, a set of dishes I had in Japan, I bought them in Japan, and so naturally we couldn't give them anything without giving the other people something.

Mr. Jenner. It isn't the fact that you brought him a gift. I can understand that. That would be, I might be even a little surprised if you hadn't. It is the particular gift in which I am interested. Why did you select a coffee pot? Was there something that led to that particular selection on your part?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; we didn't know what really to bring them, and my wife says, it was one of these glass coffee pots that you put the candle under, you see, it wasn't a regular percolator. It was one of these that a hostess always likes to have available to pour coffee out of.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. And my wife had one, and she liked it so she figured we would give them one.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Tell us everything that occurred on that day, what he said, what Robert said that is pertinent, what you said, things that occurred, just completely exhaust your recollection.

Mr. Pic. Well, Lee informed us that he was working at some type photography printing company.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. You were advised during the course of that day he was then at that time living in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is what he said.

Mr. Jenner. And working in some kind of photographic work in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I said he referred to their living conditions.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Pic. They had a one-room, I think it was one room. They ate and slept in the same room, I believe. They had no radio, no TV. That Marina, when they first arrived, was really astounded about supermarkets. Every time she went in one she lost control of herself.

Marina herself wore no lipstick, very plainly dressed. Lee appeared to be a good father in that he would relieve Marina the burden of holding the child and taking care of it.

Mr. Jenner. How was he attired when you met him at the bus station?

Mr. Pic. He had on a sport jacket and tie. Sports jacket and tie.

Mr. Jenner. He was clean and neat?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How did Marina and your brother Lee appear to be getting along?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; being they only spoke Russian to each other, I don't know what they said but they appeared to be just like any other married couple married a year or 2.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation during the course of the day in which you participated or overheard as to Marina's undertaking to learn English?

Mr. Pic. Well, my sister-in-law, Vada——

Mr. Jenner. That is Robert's wife?

Mr. Pic. Wife. Of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say to each other, and through my wife, I found out what Vada had said to her, that Lee did not permit Marina to wear any lipstick, he did not permit her to learn English. My wife, she thought this was really absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a TV set and let her sit home and learn English. My wife thought it was terrible the way her conditions were as far as this was concerned. The girls seemed to gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said by Vada or your wife on that occasion as to the reason why Lee was not permitting Marina to learn English and speak it and write it?

Mr. Pic. Well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn English she would wise up, being we had seen the Japanese wise with their husbands. For example, while they were living over in Japan and the wife is usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see, she gets her American ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all the other American wives do. And my wife was under the impression that this would happen if once she did learn English and everything.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Keep talking about what occurred on this particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you exhaust all of your recollection.

Mr. Pic. Well, Marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. At no time did we mention our mother. She wasn't present. In fact—I will take that statement back.

Some time during our stay there Vada mentioned that she had seen my mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried. This may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. We stayed there Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and we left Sunday.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the course of that occasion or in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how Vada and Marina had gotten along while the Oswalds, your brother, and she lived with your brother Robert and your sister-in-law Vada?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember that, sir. If it was any talk it was probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which is small talk to the men, of course.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn on that day that Lee had lived with your brother for a while?

Mr. Pic. I had learned during that time period that Lee and Marina had lived with Robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by the press and TV to contact them, but Robert wouldn't let them. He wasn't going to go through it again. Robert only had a one—two-bedroom apartment, I mean house, and I am sure when we stayed there we were crowded a little bit. My wife and I slept on the floor, and I am sure Marina and Robert, I don't know where they slept—I mean Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept on a mattress on the floor?

Mr. Pic. A couple of blankets on the floor, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn during that period of time that Lee had lived with your brother for a time?

Mr. Pic. Possibly, sir; I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the fact or any allusion to the fact that during this period, up to Thanksgiving Day, there had been a time when Marina had not lived with your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. I understood they arrived from New York, at New York together, and proceeded—there was a short stay, I think, mentioned in New York. Where they stayed, I don't know, sir, and then they proceeded to Texas and lived with Robert.

Mr. Jenner. I am referring particularly to September and October and part of November 1962. Was there any reference or any discussion of it or anything said in your presence of the fact that Marina had lived apart, separate and apart from Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. During one or more periods of time in September or October and November 1962?

Mr. Pic. Possibly it could have been being Marina stayed there while Lee went to look for a job in Dallas. I think, that may have been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Was there at any time mentioned even while he was working in Fort Worth, fully employed that she had separated from him and gone to live elsewhere?

Mr. Pic. I am not aware that he did work in Fort Worth, sir, at any time.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't learn at that time, Thanksgiving, that he had worked in Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was the Leslie Welding Co. mentioned at all?

Mr. Pic. Something about welding was mentioned, that he tried it when he first came back, now that you mention it.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression or did you gain the impression then that he had had some employment in Fort Worth then as a welder?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember if it was Fort Worth, sir, or where it was. I just know that welding was mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. In that connection, was it mentioned or in any fashion indicated to you that he had been employed as a welder whether in Fort Worth or otherwise, but he had been employed as a welder?

Mr. Pic. It was my impression because of his experience in the Soviet Union working with metals that this helped him in getting his job as a welder.

Mr. Jenner. When he first returned?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that that was a position or work that he had had prior to the time that he obtained the position in Dallas about which he spoke?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a position preceding his work in the photography field in some firm in Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Anything said about his financial status—that is, his and Marina's, and the child?

Mr. Pic. Well, he said he wasn't making very much money, but they were managing to get by. They couldn't afford a TV, couldn't afford a radio, couldn't afford these necessities of life.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything during the course of that day on the subject of any political philosophy of his?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. Jenner. Politics wasn't discussed?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Whether party politics or politics in the broad sense?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. Jenner. How did he look to you physically as compared with when you had seen him last?

Mr. Pic. I would have never recognized him, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Your brother Robert said something along these lines. You had last seen him in 19—that was prior to this occasion, the last time you had seen him was when he was in New York City?

Mr. Pic. Which was a little over 10 years.

Mr. Jenner. Well, just about 10 years.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Of course you had seen him in February 1953, I think you said.

Mr. Pic. Right. But we walked in and he walked out.

Mr. Jenner. But you saw him?

Mr. Pic. Right, I had seen him for a moment.

Mr. Jenner. He was then at that particular time in the neighborhood of 13 years of age?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you saw him 10 years later he was 23.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You noticed, did you, a material change, physically first, let's take his physical appearance?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Physically I noticed that.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice?

Mr. Pic. He was much thinner than I had remembered him. He didn't have as much hair.

Mr. Jenner. Did that arrest your attention? Was that a material difference? Did that strike you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely.

Mr. Jenner. What else did you notice about his physical appearance that arrested your attention?

Mr. Pic. His face features were somewhat different, being his eyes were set back maybe, you know like in these Army pictures, they looked different than I remembered him. His face was rounder. Marilyn had described him to me when he went in the Marine Corps as having a bull neck. This I didn't notice at all. I looked for this, I didn't notice this at all, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He seemed more slender?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He had materially less hair?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His eyes seemed a little sunken?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did he give you the appearance of—was he taut, was he relaxed or taut, or just what appearance did he have in that connection?

Mr. Pic. Sir, he didn't strike me as being relaxed because I was not with him.

Mr. Jenner. You were not?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; because of these other feelings we had developed 10 years prior to this. I wondered about how he still felt about that.

Mr. Jenner. But nothing occurred to lead you to believe that he still remembered it vividly, or did or didn't?

Mr. Pic. When he was introduced to my wife again he did mention that he remembered her. But other than that, he completely ignored her.

Mr. Jenner. Was that pretty obvious?

Mr. Pic. To her it was, sir. She mentioned it to me several times. He arrived about 2.

Mr. Jenner. In the afternoon?

Mr. Pic. Right; and that is when we picked him up, so I guess we ate about 3, 4 o'clock or so. And then the girls cleared off the table and they sat and had coffee and I took them out, they wanted to see my car.

Mr. Jenner. Took who out?

Mr. Pic. Lee and Robert both. They looked at my car.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take Marina out with you?

Mr. Pic. No; she stayed in the house with the girls, and we talked about cars.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about a car?

Mr. Pic. I was made aware sometime during the day that he wasn't driving. Other than this——

Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware of that?

Mr. Pic. He said he couldn't get a license, to me.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say why he couldn't get a license?

Mr. Pic. He said it and give me the impression because of his citizenship status being he had a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see your brother Lee Harvey Oswald drive an automobile?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; never in my life.

Mr. Jenner. While you boys were still in Fort Worth and before you enlisted in the Coast Guard in January 1950 had you—you had an automobile, didn't you?

Mr. Pic. I drove the family car.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert drive?

Mr. Pic. He may have known how. He was not permitted to drive the family car.

Mr. Jenner. I remember when I was a boy I wasn't permitted to drive the family car, in the broad sense.

Mr. Pic. Right. He never swiped it.

Mr. Jenner. I was permitted to drive it up and down the driveway or when my father was with me, I could drive it around the block or something like that the way kids do. Was Robert permitted to do that on a limited scale?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't remember that, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you own what we used to call in my day an old jalopy while you were still in Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. That picture of that automobile there was quite an old jalopy, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That was before you enlisted?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did your brother Robert ever drive that?

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, no, sir. In fact, I only drove it a few times myself. This is the picture with the dog.

Mr. Jenner. That is the picture of the car in John Pic's Exhibit No. 55?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee never drove it, to your knowledge?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was your brother Robert interested in automobiles?

Mr. Pic. All kids are interested in automobiles.

Mr. Jenner. No; please—was he interested in automobiles?

Mr. Pic. Sure, he wanted to drive. He seen I was driving so he wanted to drive and he wasn't as old as I was, I was permitted to drive and he wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. What about your brother Lee Harvey Oswald in that respect?

Mr. Pic. I don't know if he ever was really interested at that age to drive a car or not, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said on the day, Thanksgiving Day 1962, to lead you to believe that he knew how to drive or operate an automobile?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, are you right handed?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is your brother Lee right or left handed?

Mr. Pic. I think he was right handed, sir. I think we were all right handed, Robert had tendencies toward the left hand and I think my mother made him change.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the course of that occasion when you saw him about his experiences in the Marines?

Mr. Pic. There probably was, sir, but I don't remember what they referred to. I know he told me he was at Atsugo Naval Air Station. This I didn't know until he told me exactly where he was in Japan. I was familiar with the Atsugo area.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having been in the Philippines?

Mr. Pic. Reading the magazine I now know that——

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything then?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; at that time I don't remember knowing that he had been in the Philippines.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about ever having been in Formosa?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. Just Japan, I think possibly Korea, maybe, was mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. But there was no discussion of his marine career to speak of?

Mr. Pic. He was affiliated with radar, he told me, radio radar.

Mr. Jenner. Did the subject arise of why he went to Russia?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That was not discussed at all?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing was said? Anything said about his experiences in Russia prior to the time he became married there?

Mr. Pic. No sir; he didn't mention that at all to me.

Mr. Jenner. And anything said about his problems with the—I will withdraw that.

Was anything said about his defection or attempted defection to Russia?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he did not mention his defection at all. Why he did it or how he did it, he didn't mention anything, and I didn't ask him.

Mr. Jenner. During the several days you were in Fort Worth visiting your brother Robert, did you and he go hunting?

Mr. Pic. We went fishing, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Fishing? I take it you did not go hunting.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not at that particular time. When I first went there in 1958, we did go hunting.

Mr. Jenner. I see. When you three boys were in Fort Worth, that is before you enlisted in January 1950, did you boys occasionally go hunting?

Mr. Pic. We had no firearms whatsoever, sir, in the house.

Mr. Jenner. So you did not go hunting?

Mr. Pic. I didn't. Robert possibly did with some friends of his. I don't think Lee ever did. We went fishing several times.

Mr. Jenner. After you returned to this country in 1962, thereafter there were occasions, where there, or some one occasion, at least, when you did go squirrel or rabbit hunting with your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that was in 1958.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes. When you were traveling across country to California?

Mr. Pic. Yes; we went to his in-law's farm and we did a little hunting on his father-in-law's property.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of firearms?

Mr. Pic. .22, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Single shot?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You say the subject of your mother was not mentioned in the course of this Thanksgiving Day visit?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Robert and I never brought her up in any conversations we had.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say about her?

Mr. Pic. He mentioned her, that he had seen her or been in touch with her when he first came back, maybe even stayed with her for a week or two when he first came back, I don't remember. My wife later told me that Marina couldn't get along with my mother.

Mr. Jenner. Marina told your wife that she couldn't get along with your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I think it was Vada told my wife that Marina couldn't. I think she rather observed this rather than being told by Marina.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Pic. That the two of them, not that they didn't get along, but that Marina disliked her.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the last time you saw your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir, in the course of that Thanksgiving Day, my brother Robert offered to drive him back to the bus station. Lee made a phone call and it was my understanding that the people that he phoned were of Russian descent, and that Marina often visited with them or talked with them, so she could talk in her own native tongue, and that their boy, who was attending, I believe, the University of Oklahoma——

Mr. Jenner. Paul Gregory?

Mr. Pic. Sir, I don't remember his name at all, because I was mad at the time I was introduced to him.

Mr. Jenner. Introduced to whom?

Mr. Pic. This gentleman who picked him up.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a young man?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right, tell us the circumstances, tell us what led up to this incident, and tell us all about the incident.

Mr. Pic. Well, they made the phone call, and Lee said that they would be picked up by their friends, and I think sometime between 6 and 7 that night he came by. Now, my brother Robert, whenever he introduces me to anyone always refers to me as his brother. Lee referred to me as his half brother when he introduced me.

Mr. Jenner. On this occasion?

Mr. Pic. It was very pronounced. He wanted to let the man know I was only his half brother. And this kind of peeved me a little bit. Because we never mentioned the fact that we were half brothers.

Mr. Jenner. You never had that feeling?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the first time that your brother had ever introduced you to anyone as his half brother? I am talking about your brother Lee now.

Mr. Pic. I think possibly, sir, this is the first time he ever introduced me to anyone.

Mr. Jenner. Was this the first time he had ever referred to you as your half brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. His half brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that so?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that irritated you on this occasion?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Right then and there I had the feeling that the hostile feeling was still there. Up until this time it didn't show itself, but I felt then, well, he still felt the same way.

Mr. Jenner. This young man from the University of Oklahoma, whose name, by the way, was Gregory——

Mr. Pic. He was at the University of Oklahoma.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. I have said this three or four times, I wasn't certain, but I am sure he was and I was introduced to him as Lee's half brother, and the man was studying Russian at the school. His parents were from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. He came alone, did he?

Mr. Pic. The car was parked out front, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he was alone when he came in?

Mr. Pic. He was in the house alone.

Mr. Jenner. Was it night?

Mr. Pic. Yes; it was dark between 6 and 7 in November.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go out to the car?

Mr. Pic. No; I didn't. We stayed in the house.

Mr. Jenner. Did Robert go out to the car?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember, sir. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina appear to be acquainted with this young man?

Mr. Pic. Yes; as soon as he walked in she started talking Russian to him.

Mr. Jenner. Did he respond in Russian?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Lee spoke to him in Russian?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Except when he was introducing you to him he introduced you in English as his half brother?

Mr. Pic. Well, Lee would speak to him part Russian, part English. He was only there maybe a couple or 3 minutes. I had the impression that this gentleman could speak Russian better than Lee.

Mr. Jenner. What gave you that impression?

Mr. Pic. Because Lee wouldn't converse fully with him in Russian whereas him and Marina did converse fully in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Any other impressions you got of this several hours visit with your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. Well, right before they left, sir; I told him that if he needs any help or anything, to let me know. I told him I was unable to help him financially but he is welcome to pay us a visit any time he wished, stay with us, talk like that.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mr. Pic. He said OK. He told me to write to him, and in this book, sir, which I had there he wrote his post office box address in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. We will give that little book, to which you make reference, John Pic Exhibit No. 60.

(The document referred to was marked John Pic Exhibit No. 60 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. I have John Pic Exhibit No. 60 in my hand. What is this?

Mr. Pic. A black memo book, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. Of yours?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I had it in my car at the time. Whenever I travel I keep a little book with my mileage on it and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. I notice that the fist ruled page of this book on which there appear some figures, the letter "B" and then there are some handwritings which appears to be Russian. I show that to you.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. That is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of her writing in this book?

Mr. Pic. Only part of this, sir, is in the handwriting of Marina Oswald. This right here [indicating].

Mr. Jenner. That is the word beginning with the letter, it looks like the letter "N" or "M" and the word right below that beginning with the letter "D," and a word right below that beginning, it looks like a capital "H"?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir. The other ones are in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. The others are all figures?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of her writing that on the page?

Mr. Pic. She being a pharmacist, and me being in the medical field, we tried to communicate with each other just to make small talk with medical terminology, metric system and so forth, just some way to kill time with each other she and I seemed to be able to do this to some degree.

Mr. Jenner. That is to communicate?

Mr. Pic. Yes; as long as we stuck within the pharmacy and medical field.

Mr. Jenner. Did she know some English terms in the pharmacy, medical field?

Mr. Pic. She used Latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me.

Mr. Jenner. Just what was that writing, some medical terms?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I think these are names of drugs she was writing down. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Jenner. There is a large letter "B" on that page. How did that get on there?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. I don't know, sir. I wouldn't venture a guess whose handwriting it is.

Mr. Jenner. There is a square to the left of the handwriting in Russian, what does that signify?

Mr. Pic. This was placed there by the Secret Service, in San Antonio, sir, to identify the handwritings in this book, the square being the handwriting of Marina Oswald, the parentheses being the handwriting of myself and the mark with the circle being the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. So that wherever throughout that book a zero appears that is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Wherever the parentheses mark appears that is your handwriting?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And wherever the square appears that is Marina's handwriting?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Turn the page over. On the reverse side of that page that is all your handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Except this up here, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse side of the previous page.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the front side of the next page which has the letter "A" printed on it, in the upper right-hand corner. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Everything except this top portion, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The top portion?

Mr. Pic. Starting with liquid measure would be my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And then there is something above that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. I believe that to be Marina Oswald's, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Everything below that is yours?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The reverse side of that page, that is the reverse side of the "A" page is in whose handwriting?

Mr. Pic. My handwriting, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then the page opposite that?

Mr. Pic. That is in my handwriting, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse side of that page is blank. Then the face of the next page is some figures and the words "Highway start, Fort Worth," and "highway" again, those are all in whose handwriting?

Mr. Pic. My handwriting, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then the series of pages are blank, and the first writing we see thereafter is on the "C" page, some letters and a figure. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. That is mine, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next handwriting appears on the last ruled page. Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. Pic. That is the handwriting of my wife, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All of it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she loves to write her name.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Then on the next to the last page in the book which is a plain white page, appears P.O. Box 2195, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Pic. That is the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And on the opposite page, which is the inside of the back cover——

Mr. Pic. This is the identifying mark in the hand of Secret Service Agent Ben A. Vidles, in San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. This book is in the same condition now as it was?

Mr. Pic. When I gave it to the Secret Service.

Mr. Jenner. When you gave it to the Secret Service.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Plus the identifying marks you have described?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence a document, memorandum book now marked as "John Pic Exhibit No. 60."

(The document heretofore marked for identification as John Pic Exhibit No. 60 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you thereafter prior to November 22, up to but prior to November 22, 1963, hear anything about your brother?

Mr. Pic. The day or two after they left Robert and I went fishing. While we were in the boat there was Robert, myself, and my oldest boy, and at this time I asked him about Lee, I asked him if he considered or thought that Lee was a little on the pink side and just how he was getting along. Robert informed me that he had had seen FBI agents once in awhile who said Lee was doing pretty good and that there was nothing to worry about. And all reports that he had had were favorable towards Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Robert did tell you that the FBI had checked with him?

Mr. Pic. He had seen an agent now and then, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't elaborate as to whether the FBI had come to visit him or whether he had merely run into some FBI agent?

Mr. Pic. I had the impression that they had visited him where he worked, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear anything else about your brother from that occasion up to but not including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pic. Well, other information I gathered from my talks with Robert in those few days was that Lee and Marina made the trip to see them in Fort Worth fairly regular, to have dinner, things like this. It seems that Vada and Marina were at one time, I was told, talking——

Mr. Jenner. By whom?

Mr. Pic. hutchesonBy Vada, Marina was trying to make a point about her wedding ring being she couldn't speak English, Vada got the impression that Marina had been married before.

Mr. Jenner. That Marina had been married before?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this is the only thing she could gather from Marina flashing her wedding ring and talking about this. The four of us were present, Robert, myself, and the two wives. But this was done over coffee.

Mr. Jenner. This was after Lee and Marina had left?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; this was after they had left.

Mr. Jenner. What did Robert say on that subject, if anything?

Mr. Pic. Nothing. That he didn't think she had been married before.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit your brother Robert, and did he visit you subsequent to that occasion on Thanksgiving up to but not including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pic. A couple or 3 days prior to Christmas of 1962, Robert and his family returned the visit to our home in San Antonio, sir. I asked Robert this time if he had seen or heard from Lee since we had last seen him and he told me, no.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any comment on that subject that he had not heard from Lee up to that time?

Mr. Pic. It was really only a matter of 3 or 4 weeks at the most, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So it didn't occasion any surprise on your part?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Were you given any other information by Robert with respect to Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Robert again subsequent to this pre-Christmas Party 1962?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And up to but not including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pic. I still haven't seen him since Christmas 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Have you corresponded?

Mr. Pic. We have written a few letters, and I was permitted to make a phone call to him right after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say in the course of that conversation? What did you say?

Mr. Pic. This was—I was permitted to make the phone call after Lee's murder. The Secret Service said I could contact Robert. He had called where I worked and left a number. I contacted the Secret Service. They told me go ahead and call this number, call them back and tell them the gist of the conversation.

I called him up at this number. Someone answered the phone and I asked for Robert and they called him to the phone. He told me that he and his—told me his wife and children were at the farm with her folks, I believe that is what he told me. That he was—he couldn't tell me where he was but he was in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Robert was?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; under custody of the Secret Service.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was this?

Mr. Pic. This was Sunday, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The day of the death of your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The 24th of November 1963?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. What else was said?

Mr. Pic. He told me that some local business people would make arrangements for the funeral and there would be no expense to him. I told him I was sorry it happened and everything.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having seen your brother at the Dallas City Police Station prior to this telephone conversation?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion in this telephone conversation about the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. About the possible involvement of your brother in that connection?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, it was confined largely, if not exclusively, to the death of your brother?

Mr. Pic. The conversation was just about as I related it, sir. It was mostly confined to the death of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. And his burial?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend the funeral services?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I was not permitted. In fact, the Secret Service did not let me write Robert for, I think, 7 to 8 days after the assassination. At that time they granted me permission to freely correspond with him.

Mr. Jenner. And you did so?

Mr. Pic. I think we have written about two, three letters back and forth. I am the one who fails to write. He never fails to write.

Mr. Jenner. The subject matter of these letters involved Lee; any of them?

Mr. Pic. I think the very first one I got concerned the welfare of his family. They were out at the farm. That his company treated him very good about all the time lost. That Marina asked about us and how we were getting along. In my return letter to him I told him nobody had bothered us and we were getting along just fine. He informed me that he was—I suggested if they could, to come down and stay with us awhile. We had just purchased a new house, we had the room, and he wrote back and told me that because he had missed all the time because of the incidents he was unable to get any more time from his company without losing his job.

Mr. Jenner. Have you seen Marina in the meantime?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The last time you saw her, I take it, then, was Thanksgiving Day 1962?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Has there been any correspondence between you?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Has there been any correspondence that was indirect in any fashion?

Mr. Pic. My last letter I received from Robert was right after he appeared here. He mentioned that Marina often asked about my wife and I. Other than this, there has been no mention. He has mentioned about the grave being desecrated, and some information concerning the gravesite of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Before I return to some specifics, is there anything else that has occurred to you in your reflection on this matter that you would like to mention?

Mr. Pic. The actual assassination, that time period or what, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Well, anything you think that might be relevant to the Commission's investigation as to the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, any persons involved therein, the subsequent death of your brother.

Mr. Pic. Most of the information that I have seen and heard has been all new to me, like his escapades in New Orleans, passing out the leaflets and his radio program.

Mr. Jenner. Those incidents, by the way, were unknown to you until after the assassination, I take it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I assure you if I had known he was doing his escapades again I would have went to the proper authorities about it.

Mr. Jenner. I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower left-hand spread at the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother?

Mr. Pic. This one here with the arrow.

Mr. Jenner. The one that has the printed arrow?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you recognize that as your brother?

Mr. Pic. Because they say so, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Please, I don't want you to say——

Mr. Pic. No; I couldn't recognize that.

Mr. Jenner. Because this magazine says that it is.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize this photograph, the people from left to right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas when we returned from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. You mean from—when you came from New Orleans after being at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you went to Dallas?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It was taken in Dallas at or about that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken?

Mr. Pic. Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it.

Mr. Jenner. Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people apparently in the background.

Mr. Pic. I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the—one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Pic. Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No. 284—do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There is a young fellow in the foreground—everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; looking at that picture—and I have looked at it several times—that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in that picture?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, his profile.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Neither one of them?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is in the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that?

Mr. Pic. That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I do not recognize them.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons?

Mr. Pic. He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him.

Mr. Jenner. And the lady?

Mr. Pic. She is his wife, Marina, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him.

Mr. Jenner. As to whether he was your brother?

Mr. Pic. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 292, in the upper right-hand corner, is a picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. Do you recognize either of those persons?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I recognize Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And the baby?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I couldn't recognize the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Below that is a picture purporting to be that of your brother with a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee?

Mr. Pic. That is how he looked to me in 1962 when I seen him, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a duplicate of the picture on the cover. You have produced for us a series of letters from your mother to yourself, from your brother Lee to yourself, and from your brother Robert to yourself which have been marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 6 through 47, inclusive.

Did you assist Mr. Ely, in the preparation of this list of exhibits?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I arranged the stacks. He took it from the stacks I arranged previously.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, then, John Pic Exhibit No. 6 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, postmarked May 8, 1950, and its accompanying envelope as John Pic Exhibit No. 6-A. John Pic Exhibit No. 7 is a letter from your mother to you, postmarked May 23, 1950, or the envelope is so postmarked. Its accompanying envelope being marked John Pic Exhibit No. 7-A. John Pic Exhibit No. 8, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope, Exhibit No. 8-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, May 24, 1950.

By the way, Exhibit No. 6-A is postmarked Fort Worth. All of these exhibits until I indicate otherwise from here on are marked with a return address to M. Oswald, 9048 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Pic. 7408.

Mr. Jenner. What did I say? 7408; that is correct. You are right.

Exhibit No. 9 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic, accompanying envelope is Exhibit No. 9-A postmarked June 9, 1950.

Exhibit No. 10 and its reverse side, which is marked Exhibit No. 10-B, is a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope marked John Pic Exhibit No. 10-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, Tex., on August 23, 1950. This envelope has no return address on it.

Exhibit No. 11 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic in an envelope postmarked August 15, 1950, marked Exhibit No. 11-A.

Exhibit No. 12 is a letter from Marguerite to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked November 6, 1950, and identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 12-A.

The next is John Pic Exhibit No. 13, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked December 13, 1950, the envelope being marked John Pic Exhibit No. 13-A. This does have the return address Lee Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

The next is a short longhand note on a small sheet marked John Pic Exhibit No. 14 which is undated, Lee Harvey Oswald to John Pic, which was enclosed with Exhibit No. 13.

The next is a card, Christmas card, marked John Pic Exhibit No. 15, inside cover of which in longhand says, "Dear Pic," and then there is in longhand and pencil "I sure am sorry that you can't come home for Christmas so I am sending you this fruitcake. Merry Christmas"—spelled Mary—"from Lee."

The next is John Pic No. 16, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 16-A and postmarked in Fort Worth, April 16, 1951, with the usual return address.

Exhibit No. 17 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in envelope postmarked at Fort Worth on April 23, 1951. That envelope is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 17-A. The previous envelope in which Exhibit No. 16 was enclosed was marked Exhibit No. 16-A. I will say for the record in each instance where there is a letter accompanied by an envelope, the envelope is marked with a letter "A" but with the same number as the letter.

Exhibit No. 18 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 18-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, May 22, 1951.

The next is Exhibit No. 19, a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 19-A, postmarked at Fort Worth on June 18, 1951.

Exhibit No. 20 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic and Exhibit No. 20-B is a birthday card from Marguerite. Both are enclosed in an envelope marked John Pic Exhibit No. 20-A, postmarked at Fort Worth, Tex., June 14, 1952, bearing the usual return address.

Exhibit No. 21 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Pic Exhibit No. 21-A, postmarked Fort Worth, July 14, 1952, with the usual return address.

The next is a letter without an envelope which is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 22. The letter is dated May 10, 1954.

The Exhibit No. 23 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed is an envelope, Exhibit No. 23-A, postmarked in New Orleans on June 14, 1954, containing the return address, M. Oswald, 1454 St. Mary, New Orleans, La.

The next is Exhibit No. 24; it is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope postmarked at New Orleans, October 14, 1954, which in turn is marked John Pic Exhibit No. 24-A. It contains the return address, M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. If I neglected to do so, Exhibit No. 22 is the letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic.

Exhibit No. 25 also is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 25-A, postmarked at New Orleans, La., on November 12, 1954, containing return address, M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La.

Exhibit No. 26 is a letter from Marguerite Oswald to John Pic enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 26-A, postmarked at New Orleans, La., on November 11, 1954, return address, Mrs. M. Oswald, 126 Exchange, New Orleans, La. Mr. Pic, are Exhibits Nos. 6 and 6-A, 7 and 7-A, 8 and 8-A, 9 and 9-A, 10 and 10-A, 11 and 11-A—excuse me, strike out that 10 and 10-A—11 and 11-A, 12 and 12-A, 16 and 16-A, 17 and 17-A, 18 and 18-A, 19 and 19-A, 20 and 20-A, 21 and 21-A, 22, 23 and 23-A, 24 and 24-A, 25 and 25-A, 26 and 26-A, all in the handwriting of your mother Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And were those envelopes addressed to you at various places you were then, that is as of the time they were postmarked received by you at or about the postmarked dates or shortly thereafter which each envelope bears?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There is one exhibit that doesn't have an envelope. Was that letter received by you shortly after the date it bears?

Mr. Pic. You refer to Exhibit No. 22, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Pic. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. These are all, they all consist of correspondence from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And they happen to be correspondence which you have retained over the years?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Except for the exhibit marks on those, they are in the same condition now as they were at the time you received them and opened them in the case of the envelopes?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that the letters are in the condition they were at the time you read them?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Go back to Pic Exhibit No. 10, in whose handwriting is that exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 10, sir, is in the handwriting of—there is Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 10, I am referring to.

Mr. Pic. They are both in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibits Nos. 10 and 10-A; correct?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Exhibits Nos. 10, 10-A, and 10-B. Exhibit No. 10 is the insert in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A.

Mr. Jenner. Then look at Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A.

Mr. Pic. They are marked Exhibits Nos. 13 and 13-A, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The contents are marked Exhibit No. 13.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In whose handwriting is the envelope?

Mr. Pic. Lee Harvey Oswald's.

Mr. Jenner. And whose handwriting is that which appears in the inside of that card?

Mr. Pic. My mother's, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is there any handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald on that card?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The card was enclosed, was it in the exhibit marked John Pic No. 13-A?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Turn to Exhibit No. 14. That is a note you received from your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in his handwriting?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is undated.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the envelope in which that was enclosed?

Mr. Pic. Sir, it may be Exhibit No. 13-A, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 13-A?

Mr. Pic. It may have been enclosed in Exhibit No. 10-A, I don't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, it is in the handwriting of your brother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you received it in due course some time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. On or about the holiday period——

Mr. Pic. I would guess that Exhibit No. 15 goes in envelope Exhibit No. 13-A.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you put them in there?

Mr. Pic. And the date on envelope Exhibit No. 13-A is 13 December, and this is a Christmas card from Lee, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That Christmas card on the inside is the handwriting of your mother, however?

Mr. Pic. No, sir. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the exhibit marked John Pic No. 14, do you have a recollection as to the envelope in which that was enclosed?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to approximately when you received it, that is John Pic Exhibit No. 14?

Mr. Pic. I would speculate and say that Exhibit No. 10 goes in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A, and that Exhibit No. 14 either came some little period of time before or after the contents in envelope Exhibit No. 10-A.

Mr. Jenner. That is while you were away at military school?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; this is when I am in the Coast Guard.

Mr. Jenner. All right. All those exhibits I have now identified, that is after I identified your mother's letters, are in the handwriting of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Pic. All except Exhibit No. 13, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Exhibit No. 13 is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It appears to be and is a Christmas card?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From its contents are you able to tell us approximately when you received that?

Mr. Pic. It would be, I would say sometime after Christmas of 1950, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you put all those exhibits back in order?

Mr. Pic. What belongs with what I think.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. Exhibits Nos. 13-A and 15 here, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You have already told us of Exhibits No. 13-A belonging with Exhibit No. 15. You have also produced for us correspondence that you happen still to have in your possession from your brother Robert Oswald, have you not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I place that correspondence before you and ask you to follow me as I place the exhibit numbers in the record. Exhibit No. 27 is a letter from Robert to you.

Mr. Pic. They are marked all with "B's."

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 27-B is a letter from your brother Robert to you enclosed in an envelope marked Exhibit No. 27-A, postmarked October 1, 1952?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. From where?

Mr. Pic. U.S. Navy 14016, sir. Unit 1.

Mr. Jenner. And to you at?

Mr. Pic. At 325 East 92d Street, New York City, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 28-B is the contents of Exhibit No. 28-A, the contents consisting of a letter from your brother Robert to you, the envelope is postmarked June 9, 1954.

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is addressed to you where?

Mr. Pic. U.S. Coast Guard Station, Staten Island, N.Y.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Exhibit No. 29-B is the contents of the envelope marked Exhibit No. 29-A, the contents consisting of a letter from your brother Robert to you, and the envelope being postmarked June 19, 1954.

Mr. Pic. Plus a picture.

Mr. Jenner. There is also enclosed in that envelope a picture?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Which is marked——

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 29-C.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 29-C. The picture is a picture of whom?

Mr. Pic. Two what appear to be Marines, sir; the one on the left being Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. May I see it, please, sir? Do you know the other Marine?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 30-A is an envelope postmarked December 13, 1954, its contents being a letter marked Exhibit No. 30-B, being a letter from your brother Robert to you.

Mr. Pic. Being a Christmas card, sir; with a letter written on the Christmas card.

Mr. Jenner. On the inside?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And some inscription, also, under the Christmas greetings?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, are those exhibits all in the handwriting, except for the photograph, of course, in the handwriting of your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to my best of my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive those exhibits, the envelopes, and the contents in due course after they were posted?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have retained them in your possession since that time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Have you also produced for us some additional correspondence between your mother and yourself?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Being exclusively letters from her to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They being in the following series: Exhibit No. 31-A, an envelope addressed to you postmarked June 3, 1950——

Mr. Pic. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Fort Worth, Tex. What is the return address?

Mr. Pic. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And the contents consisting of a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that is marked Exhibit No. 31-B?

Mr. Pic. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The next envelope and letter, the envelope is marked Exhibit No. 32-A. Is it postmarked?

Mr. Pic. Partial postmark, sir.

Mr. Jenner. How much of it can you read?

Mr. Pic. Texas 1950, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Its contents marked?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 32-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Enclosed with the envelope we have identified?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit is what?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 33-A, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Postmarked?

Mr. Pic. Fort Worth, August 23, 1950.

Mr. Jenner. What return address?

Mr. Pic. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. The contents have been marked?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 33-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Enclosed in that envelope?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Is just a letter dated Exhibit No. 34.

Mr. Pic. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34.

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is it dated?

Mr. Pic. The only mention is the word Saturday, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is undated?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You received it in due course?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Some time or other?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But you did not retain the envelope?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Can you tell from its content approximately when you received it? Was it after you entered the Coast Guard?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; definitely after I entered the Coast Guard, in fact it mentions the Korean war, so it was after the onset of the Korean war.

Mr. Jenner. Was it received subsequently to the letter and envelope, the envelope being postmarked August 23, 1950, being the previous exhibit?

Mr. Pic. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The next exhibit.

Mr. Pic. Envelope Exhibit No. 35-A, sir, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex.; return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. What is the postmark date?

Mr. Pic. September 22, 1950.

Mr. Jenner. Contents marked?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 35-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Being a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 36-A bearing the postmark 27 September 1950, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing Street, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. And postmarked at Fort Worth?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; postmarked at Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. Its contents marked—what is the exhibit number on the contents?

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 36-B, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then the next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. The next Exhibit No. 37-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., December 28, 1950, no return address.

Mr. Jenner. The contents?

Mr. Pic. Christmas card marked Exhibit No. 37-B with a short note.

Mr. Jenner. In the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope Exhibit No. 38-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., January 19, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents of envelope marked Exhibit No. 38-B containing a letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope Exhibit No. 39-A postmarked Fort Worth Tex., April 6, 1951. The only thing made out on the return address is "M.O. 7408 Fort Worth, Texas."

Mr. Jenner. Contents?

Mr. Pic. Contents Exhibit No. 39-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 40-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., May 2, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, contents Exhibit No. 40-B letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 41-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., 7 May 1951, return address 7408, Mrs. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents letter marked Exhibit No. 41-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. A letter, envelope marked Exhibit No. 42-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., June 4, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 42-B, letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 43-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., June 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 43-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 44-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., July 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 44-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 45-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., February 8, 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents Exhibit No. 45-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Next exhibit?

Mr. Pic. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 46-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., May 8, 1952, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 46-B, letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. Jenner. The last of the series?

Mr. Pic. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 47-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., dated 5th of March 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents marked Exhibit No. 47-A also. The letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. Jenner. OK, that is a mistake then. We will change that marking to Exhibit No. 47-B, which I am now doing.

The letters that have been identified with Exhibit No. 31-A and concluding with Exhibit No. 47-B, are all in the handwriting of your mother, are they not?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And it is correspondence which you received in due course on or about the dates or shortly after the dates that the various envelopes were postmarked?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you have retained them in your possession in the entire time?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There is an exhibit still before you marked John Pic Exhibit No.——

Mr. Pic. Exhibit No. 59.

Mr. Jenner. What is that?

Mr. Pic. This appears to be a "shot" record of Lee Harvey Oswald written in an unknown hand, which gives him a smallpox date of August 7, 1951.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come into your possession?

Mr. Pic. It was just laying in the box with all this other stuff, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I offer those exhibits now commencing with Exhibit No. 31-A to and including Exhibits Nos. 47-B, plus 59, in evidence.

(The documents referred to were marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 31-A to 47-B, inclusive, and Exhibit No. 59 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Pic, we have made copies of all those exhibits and we appreciate your bringing the originals, and you may take the originals back with you to San Antonio. Those exhibits consisting of the photographs of your brother which you brought, we will have duplicated and returned to you in due course.

Mr. Pic. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Direct your attention, if you will, to Exhibit No. 9-A, an envelope and its contents, Exhibit No. 9, this being a letter from Fort Worth, June 9, 1950, to you at Brooklyn, N.Y.

There is an inside page reading, "Mother called in on and told some of my problems." Do you find that?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Uncle Dutz wired $75. That is your uncle Charles Murret?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And then it reads, "And Lee was invited to spend a couple of weeks, so I sent him on the train by himself. To what is your mother referring in connection with her problems and the wiring of the $75 by your uncle?

Mr. Pic. It appears to me, sir, that at this time period she was between jobs. Further down she states she is starting on a new job Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Does she refer to that job on the page that is numbered 3, I believe, as McDonald Kitchens is the name?

Mr. Pic. She first refers to it on the one where it begins, "Mother called in on".

Mr. Jenner. Now, the mother there mentioned is your mother, isn't it?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Then there is a page numbered 3?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Which referred to McDonald's Kitchens as the name and what they do is cook food for commercial use?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. "I will drive a station wagon and deliver the food, also."

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a job she was about to obtain?

Mr. Pic. I can only assume from the letter, sir; I have no other knowledge of that.

Mr. Jenner. She makes a reference on that page "Haven't sold the house as yet but have a good prospect." Calling your attention to the date, June 9, 1950, what house was that?

Mr. Pic. I am sure this refers to the little house in Benbrook, sir.

Mr. Jenner. It refers to people called DeLogans. Who are they?

Mr. Pic. I assume these people were renting the house from her, I don't remember them.

Mr. Jenner. That was a duplex of some kind?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; that was this little L-shaped house.

Mr. Jenner. In all this correspondence, Sergeant, by and large your mother very frequently, if not all the time, refers to her straitened circumstances, need for funds, and references to you having sent money. In your testimony you have referred to conversations with her on the subject and she raised the subject to you. Was that something that was pretty constantly in her mind all the time?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. Jenner. Did she talk about that subject at times when you were of the opinion that she was not as straitened as she appears to report in these letters?

Mr. Pic. Will you repeat that, please, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Would you read it, please, Mr. Reporter.

(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Pic. I am sorry, sir; I don't understand your question.

Mr. Jenner. Were you of the opinion from time to time that on these occasions when she talked about what appears to be that she was in extremis with respect to finances when in fact she was not, she was overstating this condition or status?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I believe she overstated it most of the time.

Mr. Jenner. Because there were purchases of houses, at least on the installment plan, and she seemed to have capital to do that, did she not?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she could always buy and sell a house some way or other.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to why she was doing this; to impress you boys or was that just her fixation or personality trait?

Mr. Pic. It is my impression that she did it in order to make a profit on every deal she got involved with.

Mr. Jenner. I am not thinking of a house sale as such. But that question was more directed to her talking about her financial circumstances.

Was she attempting to impress you boys that she was working herself to the bone to support you and you should be more grateful than you appeared to be, and that sort of thing?

Mr. Pic. That is practically verbatim, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Please; you say that is practically verbatim, you mean you have uttered what was in her mind?

Mr. Pic. No; just about what she says. She said at those times.

Mr. Jenner. Were you under the impression that she was overstating in that respect?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was that likewise the feeling of your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, I am sure it was.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether your mother was always sincere and straightforward with respect to that subject matter?

Mr. Pic. My opinion, sir; at the time was all she cared about was getting hold of and making some money in some form or another. This is her god, so to speak, was to get money. And to get as much out of me as she could and as much out of Robert as she could.

Mr. Jenner. And as much out of anybody else as she could?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any—you talk about the difficulties with Mr. Ekdahl. Do you recall any discussions between them with respect to any dissatisfaction on your mother's part with funds that were given her by Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; she always wanted more money out of him. That was the basis of all the arguments.

Mr. Jenner. And was she complaining to him that he didn't give her enough money?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother an extravagant person money-wise?

Mr. Pic. I don't know what she did with the money, sir. She bought very little as far as clothes and things. We didn't eat steak every day. We didn't eat that good. In fact, when I joined the service in 1950, I was 118 pounds, and my weight prior to that was usually about 130, 140. I think within a month or two after I joined the service I was up to 145 and none of my uniforms fit me. I was—there is a picture of me in the Pasqual High School thing, and I am very thin. People couldn't recognize me from that picture. I lost a lot of weight working, and not eating too good. I would come home and have to fix my own meals.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother attentive in that respect? Did she go out of her way to have meals ready for you boys when you returned to home either after work or after school or otherwise?

Mr. Pic. If there was a majority eating there was usually something set aside for the lesser, which was kept warm in the oven.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the member of the family who was absent at mealtime she would save something for him?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the feeling, you and your brother, in due course, that your mother's references to these financial needs at times, at least when, to use the vernacular, she was crying wolf?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. These continued references by her to her financial needs, did you think that had an effect on Lee as well as on yourself and your brother?

Mr. Pic. It didn't affect me that much. I ignored most of them. If I had money I sent it. If I didn't, that was it. Lee was brought up in this atmosphere of constant money problems, and I am sure it had quite an effect on him, and also Robert.

Mr. Jenner. In her letter enclosed in the envelope postmarked June 18, 1951——

Mr. Pic. What number is that, sir?

Mr. Jenner. That is Exhibits Nos. 19 and 19-A—she makes reference that Robert has been saving his money since January to buy a car and "gives me $15 a week and never spends a cent unless absolutely necessary (is he tight) but he has saved $210 since the first of the year and is hiding"——

Mr. Pic. Hitting.

Mr. Jenner. "For $400" and so on.

Mr. Pic. Before buying a car.

Mr. Jenner. "Won't loan me a penny, pays his room and board regularly. He gets 2 weeks vacation with pay, I believe, will start in July."

Do you remember your mother attempting to borrow money from you?

Mr. Pic. When I went home on leave in 1950 with a hundred or so dollars, like I mentioned before, she wanted to hold it, just about the whole amount except for about $10 from me, so nothing would happen to it, and I might get robbed or something, she felt. Whenever she could she attempted to get a buck out of any of us.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get any of that money back?

Mr. Pic. I got it all back and subsequently when I left I gave her, I think $50 or so.

Mr. Jenner. In that same letter she refers to, she said, "I only made $92 last month and am just starting to get leads. I am back with the same company."

To what company is she referring in that letter which is postmarked June 18, 1951?

Mr. Pic. I don't know, sir. It sounds to me like it would be an insurance company.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall your mother selling insurance?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I knew approximately at this time period she sold insurance.

Mr. Jenner. There is a reference to Lee taking tap dancing lessons, also, in that letter, that he is a good dancer, "with his voice it would be a good thing to start dancing lessons and when he is a little older take voice."

Mr. Pic. I think this statement here about this practically like several other statements which are either direct or indirect were an attempt to get me to donate some money to this cause or something else. Of course this, to me, is a come-on for maybe next time I write I will say, "Hurrah, hurrah, Lee is going to take tap dancing lessons" and then she will write and say she can't afford it and to send a little money to help him. She did these things. In fact, in some of her letters she refers to it is my fault they are in trouble because I stated I would help pay for the car and since I was in the service I wasn't holding up my end of the bargain.

Mr. Jenner. What about that incident?

Mr. Pic. Sir, that is in the second group of letters.

Mr. Jenner. What about this particular incident you mentioned? What are the facts about that?

Mr. Pic. Just what it states here. This is all I know, sir. What it states in this letter.

Mr. Jenner. About the dancing and voice?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear of Lee, other than this letter of Lee taking dancing lessons?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear otherwise of his taking dancing lessons than in this letter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did either you or Robert ever take dancing lessons or voice lessons?

Mr. Pic. I think when we were very small and Mr. Oswald was still alive we did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the other thing to which I referred, as you made reference to something about making payments on a car. What was that about?

Mr. Pic. That would be in that second group, sir. In the second group is really the financial statements. Every one of them contained something pertaining to her finances.

Mr. Jenner. The early enlistments of yourself and Robert and Lee—do you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent references, allusions to finances?

Mr. Pic. I did not enlist as fast as the other boys. I waited a year after I was of age. I am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter of fact, I knew she mentioned when I do get in I should make out an allotment to her and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think there was an incentive on the part of Lee and Robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your brother Robert have discussions on this subject?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; we never discussed these things. It was just a feeling it was always around. We knew these things without discussing them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you live in an atmosphere in which your mother directly or indirectly indicated to you that she thought she had been unfairly dealt with in her life?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had that very definite impression?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You had——

Mr. Pic. I did not have this impression. She related this to me, sir. I didn't feel she had it any tougher than a lot of people walking around.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I am getting at, this was an impression she was seeking to create.

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. You felt she did not have it any tougher. She was creating an impression that did not square with the facts?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir. Every time she met anyone she would remind them she was a widow with three children.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere in which Lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality?

Mr. Pic. I am sure it did, sir. Also, Lee slept with my mother until I joined the service in 1950. This would make him approximately 10, well, almost 11 years old.

Mr. Jenner. When you say slept with, you mean in the same bed?

Mr. Pic. In the same bed, sir.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know or say when Lee came and stayed with you a short while in 1952 did he likewise sleep with your mother?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. He had reached a measure of independence by that time?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; when I left and went into the service there was a vacant bed in the house.

Mr. Jenner. And at that time was that literally the first time that Lee had separate quarters for himself other than the period of time that Mr. Ekdahl lived with you and the period of time when your stepfather Lee Oswald was alive?

Mr. Pic. Lee wasn't born when Lee Oswald was alive, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is right. Well, then, except for the time Mr. Ekdahl lived with you?

Mr. Pic. That is true, sir. That would make him about 10½ years old.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time he was 10½ years old, why he roomed and slept with his mother in the same bed?

Mr. Pic. I would like to interject here.

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I am seeking something of the personality of your mother and the effect on you, had an effect on Robert, and probably a more material effect on Lee, is that correct?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I am sure it did. When I reached 17, I was eligible for the service, but I was really in no hurry, I wanted to finish my high school education, and when I decided to join the Coast Guard—at that time to join the Coast Guard you needed your parent's consent up until the age of 21. I asked her for it and she hesitated and I told her if she didn't give it to me I would join another branch where I didn't need it and then I got it. I am sure that neither Robert nor Lee needed their mother's consent to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. I know for the Coast Guard we did, sir, the Coast Guard was not a part of the Department of Defense at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibits Nos. 21 and 21-A, the second page of that letter, Exhibit No. 21, reads, "Robert left Friday morning for San Diego. He joined the Marines and signed for 4 years. I am glad he decided to enlist. He realized his mistake about getting married, and"—would you read the rest of it?

Mr. Pic. "And probably having to go just the same."

Mr. Jenner. "And then probably having to go just the same." Is that the incident in which your mother opposed your brother Robert's marriage to the little crippled girl?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Turn to Exhibit No. 24. There is a reference there to a lady, Ethel somebody at Holmes. Would you read that?

Mr. Pic. "Ethel Nunncy at Holmes asks about you."

Mr. Jenner. And that is—Holmes is a department store?

Mr. Pic. In New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Who was Ethel Nunncy?

Mr. Pic. She was a friend of my mother's, sir, that I had known of since I was a small—I was a baby.

Mr. Jenner. Sir, this Exchange Alley—did they have to live under these conditions?

Mr. Pic. All I know is that they lived there. She thought they did.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 31-B which is a letter from your mother to you postmarked at Fort Worth, June 3, 1950, reading "Dear John, your sense of responsibility seems nil" or null.

Mr. Pic. Nil, null.

Mr. Jenner. N-u-l-l. "Remember it was you insisted I buy the car as you planned to work at Consolidated. Well I have been in a jam financially ever since you left." What is the next word?

Mr. Pic. "Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul."

Mr. Jenner. "Until you were"——

Mr. Pic. Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul until you were finished with your boot training as your letters indicated you would send a hundred fifty dollars and about fifty dollars a month."

Mr. Jenner. Had you so indicated?

Mr. Pic. I don't believe so, sir. I don't see how, I wasn't making but $80 per month.

Mr. Jenner. What truth was there in her statement that it was you who insisted that she buy the car?

Mr. Pic. Well, that old jalopy I have a picture of was falling apart and before I went in the service she had a ride home from work and the generator wouldn't generate, and the battery wouldn't battery and it just kept cutting out, so we needed a new car.

Mr. Jenner. Was that particular car about which you have just described—about which you were having trouble—was that the family car or a car owned by you?

Mr. Pic. A family car, I never owned a car, sir, when I lived at home.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you had urged her to buy a new car to replace that one?

Mr. Pic. We all wanted a new car, sir, because the other one wouldn't run. She had to get it pushed every morning to get to work. She would have us out in the street waving down people to help her get the car pushed.

Further on, sir, "I wrote you and told you about a girl loaning me $50 on my ring. I lost the ring and wasn't able to pay it." Sir, I wouldn't believe that. I am sure at that time I didn't. And the way she goes on the next page, "Cox found out about me borrowing" and let her go. I don't believe this.

Mr. Jenner. The next letter, Exhibit No. 32-B, and in an envelope marked in 1950, it says "Dear John, Well, I have the house in Benbrook up for sale." Could you read the name?

Mr. Pic. It appears to me to be J. Piner Powell Real Estate is handling it. Do you want me to read on?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Pic. "The problem is to find someone with enough cash as a loan company won't make a new loan and I have about $2,600 in it. Nothing but bad news. Up to date I am still not working." Read on, sir?

Mr. Jenner. That is about enough. Did your mother write you a letter that had good news in it?

Mr. Pic. I never recall one, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Around your home was the atmosphere that, "We are poor but we will get along?" as your mother sought to lead you boys to accommodate yourselves to the circumstances that everything would turn out all right eventually?

Mr. Pic. None of us really paid much attention to this, sir. I didn't, and I am sure Robert didn't. I don't think Lee did because Robert and I would probably talk and we didn't pay much attention to it.

Mr. Jenner. You heard it so often you just became inured to it, hardened to it; is that it?

Mr. Pic. Well, we didn't believe it after the problems she put on. Just like when my wife and I got married she sent a package containing Revere Ware which I haven't received yet and she swears up and down she sent it, and she has never gotten it in the return mail either. And I know she never sent anything. When we would be home alone, before she would return from work, we have a rather friendly atmosphere, but as soon as she came home we all got into that depression rut again.

Mr. Jenner. Was your——

Mr. Pic. This is prior to my going in the service, sir.

Mr. Jenner. There were times that the atmosphere around your home was depressing?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And was that due largely to your mother?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. The things she said and the attitudes she assumed?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And while you and your brother got along well you boys were not getting along well with your mother in that sense?

Mr. Pic. Robert and I and Lee, we had our fights among us, like all brothers do. But we could handle ourselves and our own problems, but the atmosphere just changed when she was around.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother ever say anything about whether people liked her or disliked her?

Mr. Pic. She didn't have to. She didn't have many friends and usually the new friends she made she didn't keep very long.

Mr. Jenner. That was her history?

Mr. Pic. I remember every time we moved she always had fights with the neighbors or something or another.

Mr. Jenner. Was she a person who was resentful of the status of others?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And you boys were aware of that, were you?

Mr. Pic. I was aware of it. She always—I remember once when we lived on Eighth Avenue, I believe was the place, the people named McLean living next to us, of course he was an attorney and everything, and they had some money, and my mother——

Mr. Jenner. What town was this?

Mr. Pic. This was Fort Worth, sir. My mother remarked to me once that Mrs. McLean had said she went and played the slot machines and lost $100 in it, and she raved and ranted about this for half an hour or an hour about how this woman could go and waste $100 and what she could do with it and everything. She resented the fact this woman lost her own money.

Mr. Jenner. I haven't found a single letter yet, Sergeant, in which your mother fails to mention the subject of money.

Mr. Pic. You may find a Christmas card, "Love, Mother," sir.

Mr. Jenner. A letter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I don't think you will. These are only part of them. I threw out a whole bunch a couple of years ago. They were all basically the same.

Mr. Jenner. Was your mother loving and affectionate toward you boys?

Mr. Pic. I would say for myself, sir, I wasn't to her.

Mr. Jenner. What is that?

Mr. Pic. I was not toward her.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mr. Pic. I had no motherly love feeling toward her. Like I say, I think I first became resentful to her when she informed me I would not return to the military school and from then my hostilities toward her grew.

Mr. Jenner. Well, up to that point, what had been your feeling toward your mother?

Mr. Pic. We had never been in a very affectionate family, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is affectionate with respect to the boys toward your mother?

Mr. Pic. That is right, sir; kissing her, and things like this. It is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald. That is the only thing—I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I think she is a phony in the whole deal.

Also, I think you will find with myself, Robert and Lee, also, that we didn't have these or don't have these feelings towards money that she does. I mean I live on my base pay and I have for years, and Robert makes the best what he can, and whenever we get together, we never discuss money. The only time I seen Lee as an adult he didn't discuss it, not to the extent that we were used to, we never felt this way.

Mr. Jenner. It is your information, is it, that your mother's first marriage was to your father?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Her second, then, to Robert Lee Edward Oswald?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And her third to E. A. Ekdahl?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. So far as you know she has not been married otherwise than those three occasions?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; Has she?

Mr. Jenner. We don't know, if she has we don't know anything about it.

Did your brother Lee on the occasion on Thanksgiving Day 1962 say anything about whether he had had a hard time in Russia?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is a hard time in the sense of earning a living?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Or some other sense?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; earning a living.

Mr. Jenner. What do you recall he said in that connection?

Mr. Pic. That he made about $80 a month, and it wasn't the money so much. It was the products were not available to him and also his wife to get even with the money, and they consistently ate cabbage and he was tired of cabbage, and he struck me he was not complaining about the money but the availability of food.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your impression that he had become disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I got this impression.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear him say anything while you were boys in which he expressed dissatisfaction with the United States or its Government?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. He made no comment on that subject when you saw him on Thanksgiving Day 1962?

Mr. Pic. I think his only bitter feelings that I recollect was his dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps. This was the only bitter feelings he reported to me in anyway.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you tell us what he said as—did he return to that subject repeatedly? What leads you now to conclude or state by way of conclusion that he was bitter about that?

Mr. Pic. I think the idea of driving came up, the talk about automobiles. I also think that he made the statement——

Mr. Jenner. When you say that is your present recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Pic. I also think that he made the statement that he——

Mr. Jenner. Here, again, you mean to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, that he made the statement he wasn't driving because of this dishonorable discharge he received. He was unable to obtain a driver's license. Then he told me he was attempting to get this changed, and he had written several letters to the Secretary of the Navy about getting it changed.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention the then Governor Connally in that connection?

Mr. Pic. I believe he did, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Governor Connally was not then Secretary of the Navy. Did he express any resentment toward Governor Connally?

Mr. Pic. I think when he explained it to me——

Mr. Jenner. Please, you have said again "I think."

Mr. Pic. To the best of my recollection, sir, when he mentioned to me that he had written to get it changed, Governor Connally was the Secretary of the Navy. He did mention the name Connally.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling or get the impression that he was bitter toward Governor Connally as a person? He was not, then, of course——

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; just the fact that the man had the job and he was the man he had written it to.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about Fair Play for Cuba Committee on this occasion?

Mr. Pic. There was no discussion about Cuba. I think this was right after the Cuban crisis, and I think we may have talked about the mobilization a little bit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he express any views on that subject?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Was President Kennedy discussed at anytime?

Mr. Pic. I don't recollect, sir.

He struck me on that meeting as really only having two purposes: One, to straighten out the dishonorable discharge and the other one to pay back the Government the money it had lent him to come back to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. You were interested—Charlie Murret was a dentist and a graduate of Louisiana State University. Joyce Murret married an athletic coach and lives in Beaumont, Tex.?

Mr. Pic. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Gene Murret you have mentioned. He is a seminarian at Mobile, Ala. Boogie Murret works for Squibb & Co. He is a graduate of Loyola of New Orleans.

Mr. Pic. Someone mentioned, I don't know if it was Vada or my brother, Robert——

Mr. Jenner. On this Thanksgiving Day occasion?

Mr. Pic. Yes; after they had left, that Marina's uncle, brother, some relation, was an officer in the Russian Army. She had stated she had a relative in the Soviet armed forces.

Mr. Jenner. It was your impression that either Vada had or Robert had?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Some of the witnesses have testified that Lee was quick to anger as a boy. Do you remember anything about that? What is your impression about that?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was he a considerate young man?

Mr. Pic. I think towards Robert and myself he was, sir. Towards other people, no.

Mr. Jenner. Was his attitude towards other people different from that which he had toward you and Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. In what respect—what did you notice about him in that regard?

Mr. Pic. He would rather play with us than play with other children, and he always wanted to go with us wherever we went. Whenever we had a birthday or Christmas he would never forget us. I think he was very considerate towards Robert and myself.

Mr. Jenner. From time to time we have been off the record and had some discussions in discussing documents and other things. Do you recall anything we discussed off the record that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to place on the record?

Mr. Pic. I don't remember what has been off the record, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you that you think you would like to have on the record?

Mr. Pic. If you are interested in my opinions——

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir; anything that you want to add.

Mr. Pic. I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she presented to him. I also think that his reason for leaving the Marine Corps is not true and accurate. I mean I don't think he cared to get out of the Marine Corps to help his mother. He probably used this as an excuse to get out and go to his defection.

I know myself I wouldn't have gotten out of the service because of her, and I am sure Robert wouldn't either, and this makes me believe that Lee wouldn't have.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of a student was your brother, do you know, do you recall, rather?

Mr. Pic. I think in elementary school he was fairly good, sir.

Mr. Jenner. But then in the later grades, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th?

Mr. Pic. I have no idea, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is about all. I sure appreciate your coming, and the Commission likewise, at some inconvenience to yourself. You will be able to catch that 9:50 plane in the morning and get yourself back to your son's birthday party.

Mr. Pic. I hope what I have told you has been something new and not repetitious.

Mr. Jenner. Much of what you have told us has been new. Much of what you have told us has been very helpful to us in the way of corroborating matters about which we were not fully informed or in doubt, and opinions have been expressed particularly with respect to your brother have been helpful.

That leads me to ask you this further question: Give me your overall impression of your brother Lee Oswald as a personality, as he developed.

Mr. Pic. Sir; I remember Lee Oswald as a child, up until about the age of 11 or 12. To me, he appeared a normal healthy robust boy who would get in fights and still have his serious moments.

Mr. Jenner. You got in fights, too, didn't you?

Mr. Pic. Sure.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother Robert?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. These are not fights that you would regard as other than boys getting into?

Mr. Pic. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Jenner. That is, it wasn't because he was unduly belligerent?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. Pic. He got in his usual trouble around the neighborhood as far as getting in people's yards, probably, and letting the dog go astray, normal healthy boy.

I think as he became older, prior to me entering the service, he became slightly cocky and belligerent toward his mother. He never showed any of this toward Robert or myself. I am afraid it probably rubbed off of Robert and myself and it affected Lee, because we didn't really take much stock into what she was saying. I don't think we were as cocky, as belligerent as he was. There was——

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that was a defensive mechanism, on his part?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Did your mother ever say anything around your home about that employers were overreaching her, and employers overreached poor working people or anything along those lines?

Mr. Pic. No; she always reminded us she worked like a slave to provide for us three boys. She couldn't wait for a day we would grow up and support her.

When Lee visited us in New York he came there a friendly, nice easy-to-like kid.

Mr. Jenner. This is 1952 in the summer?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; he had the interest of boys at that age, the Museum of Natural History, sightseeing excursions and so forth. Until the incident where I talked to him we never had a bad word between us other than maybe joking or playing around. I tried to interest him in a hobby of building boats or collecting stamps again while he was——

Mr. Jenner. Had he been interested in those two hobbies?

Mr. Pic. Yes; he and I, all three of us collected stamps. I played chess with Lee quite a bit and Robert, too. We all did this. Played monopoly together, the three of us.

When I approached him on this knife-pulling incident he became very hostile towards me. And he was never the same again with me.

Mr. Jenner. That was the first time he had ever been hostile in that sense towards you?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And that rupture was never repaired thereafter?

Mr. Pic. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression when you saw him on Thanksgiving of 1962 that in the meantime he had become embittered, resentful of his station?

Mr. Pic. Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these purposes I mentioned, to do something about.

Mr. Jenner. What purposes?

Mr. Pic. To repay the Government and get his discharge changed.

It appeared to me that he was a good father towards his child, and not knowing the conversation between he and his wife I couldn't form much of an opinion there.

Mr. Jenner. All right, sir; that is about it.

Mr. Pic. OK, sir; thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. This transcript will be prepared by the reporters and it will be sent to your commanding officer, and would you please get it immediately and read it and sign it.

If you make any corrections in it, put your initials beside the correction, or over, above, your initial somewhere around the correction so we know it is you who did it, and return it to us as promptly as possible.

It may be that the Secret Service will bring it out, but it will be delivered to you next week.

All right.

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