TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER
The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 5:25 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. Liebeler. Would you please rise, I will swear you as a witness.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. The Commission has adopted rules of procedure in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution. I understand that Mr. Rankin, the general counsel to the Commission, wrote you a letter last week and told you that I would contact you to take your testimony this week. He sent with that letter, I understand, a copy of that Executive order and joint resolution together with a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony of witnesses. You received that letter?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. And copies of the papers I referred to?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Today we want to examine you briefly concerning the possibility that you did some work on a rifle for a man by the name of Oswald who may in fact have been Lee Harvey Oswald. Before we get into that, we would like to have you state your full name for the court reporter.
Mr. Ryder. Dial Duwayne [spelling] R-y-d-e-r.
Mr. Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr. Ryder. 2028 Harvard.
Mr. Liebeler. What city?
Mr. Ryder. Irving, Tex.
Mr. Liebeler. Where are you employed, Mr. Ryder?
Mr. Ryder. Irving Sports Shop.
Mr. Liebeler. Where is that?
Mr. Ryder. 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex.
Mr. Liebeler. What kind of place is the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. Ryder. Well, it's a retail sporting goods store.
Mr. Liebeler. What do you do in your work there?
Mr. Ryder. Actually, my capacity is, I guess you could refer to it as service manager. I do all the service work, gun work, outboard motor work, rig boats. I guess you say general flunkie or service man you refer to it as.
Mr. Liebeler. How old are you?
Mr. Ryder. Twenty-five.
Mr. Liebeler. Were you born here in Texas?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; I was born in Claremont, Ill.
Mr. Liebeler. When did you move to Texas?
Mr. Ryder. 1945.
Mr. Liebeler. 1945?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Ryder. Irving High School; actually, I went all the way through the Irving public school system.
Mr. Liebeler. And you graduated from the Irving Public High School?
Mr. Ryder. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. Ryder. 1957.
Mr. Liebeler. How long have you been working for the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. Ryder. Five years be close enough; it's a little less than 5, but 5 covers it.
Mr. Liebeler. Are you married?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you have children?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. How long have you been married?
Mr. Ryder. Five years.
Mr. Liebeler. Have you been in the military service?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. What branch were you in?
Mr. Ryder. Went in the National Guard, 49th Armored Division which I am still an active member.
Mr. Liebeler. Of the National Guard?
Mr. Ryder. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you serve on active duty with the U.S. Army?
Mr. Ryder. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. For 2 years?
Mr. Ryder. No; actually it was, let's see, I guess you say it was 15 months, 16, something like that. In other words, while I was on 6 months' training, they activated the 49th Armored Division and I was called in to stay 9 extra months on active duty.
Mr. Liebeler. Where were you stationed while on active duty?
Mr. Ryder. Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Knox for advanced individual training, and Fort Polk, La., with the 49th.
Mr. Liebeler. What kind of training did you receive?
Mr. Ryder. Armored tank training.
Mr. Liebeler. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. What is your rank in the National Guard?
Mr. Ryder. Now?
Mr. Liebeler. Yes.
Mr. Ryder. Sergeant.
Mr. Liebeler. What was it at the time you went into active duty?
Mr. Ryder. It was June 11 in 1960 when I reported to Fort Leonard Wood.
Mr. Liebeler. June what? What was your rank when you went on active duty?
Mr. Ryder. I was just an E-2.
Mr. Liebeler. E-2?
Mr. Ryder. Yes; or private—beginner—actually, I had 3 months actually, National Guard work which waives your time for E-2, three months' period. Of course, there isn't much difference in pay rate.
Mr. Liebeler. It appears that there was a newspaper story that appeared in the Dallas Times Herald on November 28, 1963, and apparently a version of that story was carried in the New York Times on November 29, 1963, which mentions you. Do you recall being interviewed by a reporter from a Dallas newspaper?
Mr. Ryder. After the story was out; yes—before, no.
Mr. Liebeler. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Ryder. Well, the deal is the story came out on Thanksgiving and early that morning the telephone rang—I would say roughly 7:30 or 8, something like that—and I answered the phone and a guy introduced himself and I told him I didn't have any comment and hung up.
Mr. Liebeler. This was a newspaperman?
Mr. Ryder. To tell you the truth, I didn't pay that much attention. I was half asleep because it was a day off. I was going to get some of that extra dozing time, you know, and I just told him I didn't have any comment and hung the phone up and took it off the hook and later on that day, CBS television came out and they were wanting a blownup deal on it to put on television when they found it was opposite which came out in the Times Herald.
Mr. Liebeler. In other words, you were not interviewed as far as you can remember by a newspaper reporter prior to the time the story came out in the Times Herald?
Mr. Ryder. Not as far as I know. I was interviewed by the FBI and Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came out.
Mr. Liebeler. Which one of those interviewed you first?
Mr. Ryder. The FBI was the first one out.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first interviewed you?
Mr. Ryder. It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President Kennedy.
Mr. Liebeler. That would have been November 25. Friday was the 22d, Saturday would be the 23d, Sunday the 24h, Monday the 25th. Do you remember the name of the FBI man?
Mr. Ryder. Mr. Horton.
Mr. Liebeler. Horton [spelling] E-m-o-r-y E. H-o-r-t-o-n?
Mr. Ryder. I didn't get his first name. His last name stuck with me—well, I don't know why; it just stayed there.
Mr. Liebeler. What did Mr. Horton say to you and what did you say to him, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. Ryder. Of course, we were closed on that Monday.
Mr. Liebeler. The Irving Sports Shop was closed?
Mr. Ryder. Right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed me pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me about it. I said "Well, the face and the body features of Oswald there was real common in this country." I mean, you know, in this area in Texas and that to say that I had him in the shop, actually, this was after a period of time that we boiled it down to. Oh, I told him I had a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and tapping and boresighting—no address, or name; he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket and was looking at the pictures, then I seen the gun. Of course, from the picture I told him as far as I could remember I told him I hadn't mounted that scope, you know.
Mr. Liebeler. You based that statement that you had not mounted the scope on your recollection that you had not worked on that particular kind of rifle, is that correct?
Mr. Ryder. Right, on this Italian rifle—I never worked on them. I seen them but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to this date, I haven't worked on any of them.
Mr. Liebeler. You are absolutely sure about that?
Mr. Ryder. I am positive on that, very positive. So, we went up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed him. It was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to.
Mr. Liebeler. Did it have a number on it?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir; I don't remember the number.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton?
Mr. Ryder. No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would probably get it later on and they did. It seems to me like it was 2 or 3 weeks ago they came and got it now.
Mr. Liebeler. Just 2 or 3 weeks ago?
Mr. Ryder. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. Who came and got it?
Mr. Ryder. I don't know; the boss, Mr. Greener, gave it to him. It was on Saturday, I believe it was.
Mr. Liebeler. Did that tag indicate the nature of the work that was to be done?
Mr. Ryder. Well, actually, all it had on it was drill and tapping; it said drill and tap and a price of $4.50, I believe it was and boresight, of course, no charge on that, so by us charging $1.50 a hole—that's what we normally charge for drillin' and tappin'—would on this particular thing, would have been three holes drill and tap, where in the picture of the gun there was only two screws holding the mount of the scope on which is, more or less, made it positive we hadn't mounted it on the gun, so Mr. Horton, so he took it for granted that I hadn't done the work on it and I am sure I haven't because——
Mr. Liebeler. What kind of gun was it?
Mr. Ryder. It was a 6.5 Italian.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you know the make?
Mr. Ryder. Like I say, I have seen several of them but as far as who made the gun, I don't know; probably some Italian gun manufacturer but as far as who it was, I don't know. I can't read Italian.
Mr. Liebeler. Could you tell from looking at the ticket when this work was done? First of all, the tag was not dated?
Mr. Ryder. The tag was not dated.
Mr. Liebeler. Could you make any estimate of the time by looking at this ticket as to when the work was done?
Mr. Ryder. Well, it was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of November.
Mr. Liebeler. How could you tell that?
Mr. Ryder. Because the work was done while the Greeners or the Woody Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport shop were on vacation.
Mr. Liebeler. How do you know?
Mr. Ryder. They were gone that 2 weeks.
Mr. Liebeler. How do you know it was done while they were gone?
Mr. Ryder. Actually, I can't really say too definitely sure but I am quite sure it was because he doesn't remember seeing the gun in the shop while he was there. In other words, before they left, and of course, it was gone when they came back.
Mr. Liebeler. When you say "the gun," what do you mean?
Mr. Ryder. The one I worked on—in other words, he keeps a pretty good watch on my work to make sure I'm getting it out on time and he will check fairly close every day, every other day, and check to make sure I'm getting the work out, that old work isn't laying there to be done. He's pretty sharp on remembering names and he would have remembered that quite surely if——
Mr. Liebeler. Do you have much work of this type?
Mr. Ryder. Yes, sir; at that time.
Mr. Liebeler. You did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting telescopic sights?
Mr. Ryder. Yes; when they left, that's 2 weeks prior to the opening of the deer season here and I guess that 2 weeks I mounted 35, 40, maybe 50 scopes in that week as well as run the business while they was gone which is quite a headache in itself. That's just prior to hunting season, you see. Just like I told everybody all along, I couldn't say specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another Oswald. In other words, I don't put that close relation to a man's face to a particular item of work.
Mr. Liebeler. When did the deer season open—the 14th or 15th of November?
Mr. Ryder. The 15th, I believe it was this year.
Mr. Liebeler. And you say you mounted perhaps as many as 50 scopes in the 2 weeks preceding that day?
Mr. Ryder. Very possibly.
Mr. Liebeler. Let's go back to the last 2 weeks in October. Did you have a similar number of scopes to mount during that time?
Mr. Ryder. Not quite that many. Lot of these guys like to get their scopes mounted just before they leave. For instance, buying these license plates and getting your car inspected works the same way. They wait until the last minute before they really get ready to go.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of about how many scopes you might have mounted during the last 2 weeks in October?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; I sure wouldn't say specific to remember, sure wouldn't be sure about the number.
Mr. Liebeler. It would not have been as many as you did the first 2 weeks in November but would it have been more than 10?
Mr. Ryder. Oh, yeah; I'm quite sure. I say roughly 25 scopes. Of course, a lot of these people that buy their scopes wholesale or buy a cheap scope that we don't handle, we handle the better priced and better scopes and they buy these things and mounts and everything somewhere else and have us mount them.
Mr. Liebeler. The thing I am working toward here is trying to fix the date on which this ticket with the name Oswald on it—when the work was done.
Mr. Ryder. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. If you mounted, say, 25 scopes or approximately that many during the last 2 weeks of October, isn't it possible that the Oswald scope could have been mounted during that period of time and your boss would not have remembered the name Oswald as being connected with one of those rifles?
Mr. Ryder. Could have, but like I say, he's pretty sharp. He's pretty smart; I mean in keeping up with the business, you know what I mean. In other words, the flow of the work that I had; in other words, he keeps a close watch on it.
Mr. Liebeler. Now you stated that the repair tag had a number on it. Are these repair tags taken off a book with tags with consecutive numbers on them?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Where do these numbers come from?
Mr. Ryder. We buy repair tags, of course, they have a main base of the tag, just a tag you can tear off and you can tear off—say I have number 41626 of the other piece; in other words, have the right tag on the gun. As far as sequence, we don't use any. We have a box and we reach over, get a tag, put a man's name on it. The same tag is used on reels, rods, outboard motors, boats.
Mr. Liebeler. So there is no possible way in which you could fix the date by observing the sequence of the number on the tag?
Mr. Ryder. No.
Mr. Liebeler. Could you limit it to a period of 2 weeks?
Mr. Ryder. Like I say, it would be from the 1st to around the 14th or 15th of November while the Greeners was away.
Mr. Liebeler. You said before you were quite sure you never worked on a——
Mr. Ryder. The Italian gun.
Mr. Liebeler. The Italian rifle. Do you have any recollection of the kind of rifle that this Oswald tag referred to?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; I don't. That's another place where we did—in other words, I did so many and I was so rushed that I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to what tag was to have such and such a scope put on. That is where actually our fall-down went on the thing.
Mr. Liebeler. There is no indication on the tag as to what kind of rifle it would be?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Are you helped at all by the fact that the tag indicates that three holes were drilled? Do you ordinarily drill three holes on all rifles?
Mr. Ryder. We boiled it down to this: That there are two type bases used that have three. The Redfield base and the Buehler base and then, actually, these could go on any gun that you want. In other words, if a man bought a Redfield or Buehler base they can be adapted to any gun with three holes. Now any imported, we couldn't say definitely if it was imported because the Springfield O3A3 requires three holes; the British 303 requires three holes. These are guns they use and that's the only ones we could think of offhand that would require just three holes, so we boiled it down, it was either Buehler, Redfield base or with the Weaver base being on the Springfield O3A3.
Mr. Liebeler. Or the 303 British rifle?
Mr. Ryder. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. You say you boiled this down in your conversation with Horton from the FBI?
Mr. Ryder. Actually, this was amongst ourselves, I and Mr. Greener. Actually, there was a lady from the Washington press, of course, I don't know, I forgotten which paper she worked with but she was with the Washington press and we discussed this with her quite thoroughly.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember her name?
Mr. Ryder. I sure don't. She, in turn, called Klein's and found out the rifle that was used in the assassination had already been drilled and tapped. In other words, he had bought the scope and rifle from Klein's and they were shipped together and all he had to do was attach it to this particular gun. In other words, the one he used in the assassination. Of course, they order by serial number.
Mr. Liebeler. You also testified you did not mount any scope on an Italian rifle?
Mr. Ryder. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. You say, that when you mount a scope you do not charge for the process of boresighting, is that correct?
Mr. Ryder. Actually, it's hard to say, really. At that time we were not charging if we drilled and tapped one, we didn't do it. Now we do charge extra, $1.50 bore sighting.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall if there was an extra $1.50 for boresighting indicated on the ticket in question?
Mr. Ryder. I don't even remember.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember discussing that point with Agent Horton?
Mr. Ryder. Yeah; we talked maybe we did charge $1.50 for the boresighting. As a matter of fact, I did because $6—or was it $4.50—I don't even remember that now.
Mr. Liebeler. You don't now remember whether the ticket was for $4.50 or $6?
Mr. Ryder. That's right, right now, I don't. It seems like to me it was for $4.50 for drill, tapping, and bore sighting. I believe it was for $4.50. In other words, I didn't charge for boresighting.
Mr. Liebeler. What do you do when you bore sight a rifle?
Mr. Ryder. Well, I use a sight-a-line. That's actually three different things but, what it is, it's an optic deal made by this manufacturing company that has a little cross hair in it just like a scope. It lays like such instead of like such [illustrating]. By taking a little sprig that fits different caliber rifles, fits in the rifle, you look through the scope and line the four cross hairs together to the center point of the cross hairs. It doesn't zero a gun by any means. It just gets you—oh, better where you can tell where you're hitting.
Mr. Liebeler. So, you can't really zero a gun any by just boresighting it?
Mr. Ryder. No; actually, it lines your bore and your sight at one point or close to one point where you can get your point from there without wasting ammunition. If I were to anchor a barrel or piece of pipe in a vise and pick out a spot over there on that building [indicating] somewhere; say, draw a circle and I line this with that and aline the sight, I have a scope or open sight either one, over to that point, I go to shoot at it offhand and there's a different way I hold that gun. This breaks it down to a fine deal where you understand the difference between boresighting and zero. If you been in the army, you know the difference. In other words, this method I was just describing say, to the building, is the way we use the bore sight.
Mr. Liebeler. But now you have a little machine that does that?
Mr. Ryder. Yes; we have this little optical instrument we use now which makes it simple and faster.
Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever worked with any rifles that came from Klein's in Chicago or mail-order rifles that came with scopes mounted on it?
Mr. Ryder. You can't tell unless a man tells you. In other words, to look at one you can't tell any difference in workmanship.
Mr. Liebeler. As far as how the scope was mounted, you mean?
Mr. Ryder. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any way of knowing whether these scopes are boresighted when mounted by a mail-order house or not?
Mr. Ryder. Most likely they are. Now, I don't know how they operate, if they do boresight any there or not. I do know for a fact if you boresight or zero a boresight on a Redfield base or any base except Bausch and Lomb, other than those, other than the Bausch and Lomb, if you take the scope off and put it back on you have to rezero. In other words, if they did boresight it and take it back off and ship it, it's going to be entirely different when the man receives the gun. It might be close enough for a man to shoot one in but won't be near as close.
Mr. Liebeler. You think that a rifle would have to be zeroed in any event after it had been shipped from a mail-order house before it could be used to shoot accurately?
Mr. Ryder. Yes; take for example, I have a Model 70 Winchester .30-06 caliber with a K-4 Weaver scope; nearly every season prior to deer season I will shoot it in and I have found several times it has been off just by riding in the back of the car. Taking it in and out of a gun case, things like that will make them off. In other words, they are not built so rigid that a little something here and there can get bumped loose so it would be like I say, he would have to have it zeroed after he received it from the mail-order house, most definitely.
Mr. Liebeler. If I were to tell you that this particular rifle had been carried to New Orleans and back in a station wagon and had laid in a garage in Irving for 2 months prior to the assassination and had been moved around in the garage, would that lead you to believe it might be out of sight at that time?
Mr. Ryder. Yes; it could be very possible.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you think it would be probable or do you have any experience to make a judgment like that?
Mr. Ryder. Like I say, of course, I take proper good care of the gun I got and I have to readjust it quite often when I shoot it in. Of course, then again, too, later on, from one season to the next I might change from the way I held my gun which is another thing to make a lot of difference in the way I shoot but one to be carried that far, unless it was really taken care of can very, very easily be knocked out of alinement or out of adjustment. Another thing, too, on just looking at this picture——
Mr. Liebeler. The picture of the rifle?
Mr. Ryder. The picture of the rifle that Mr. Horton had; this was a real cheap, common, real flimsy looking—of course, I couldn't tell by just looking at the picture say the type of material it was made of, but to me it looked rather cheap. It would be very easily knocked out of adjustment.
Mr. Liebeler. You have never been shown the actual rifle itself, is that correct?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; I haven't. I would like to see which mount it is, see whose make it is, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember being interviewed by an agent of the Secret Service?
Mr. Ryder. They came out and talked to Mr. Greener rather than myself. Well, I talked with them, too; we had a triangular, circular conversation—Mr. Greener, myself, and the agent.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the agent's name?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I said his name was Elmer W. Moore?
Mr. Ryder. Doesn't ring a bell.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember telling the Secret Service agent that you were certain after viewing photographs of Oswald that you had never done any work for him; in fact had never seen him?
Mr. Ryder. Not actually in that tone; like I say, like I told all of them that interviewed me, even the reporter, that his features are very common, I say, for the working class in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and he could have been in the shop, sport shop, I might ought to say, and be easily mistaken for another person or another person similar to his features could have been in, but I couldn't say specific if he had been in the shop or not, I mean, that's something I won't draw a conclusion on because like I say his features, face and all is common with the working class here and he could easily be mistaken one way or the other either for him or for another person.
Mr. Liebeler. Now, as far as outside of the shop is concerned, you see, I'm troubled to some extent because I have before me a report of the agent from the Secret Service and a report from the agent of the FBI. One report says you are quite sure you have seen and talked to Oswald and the other one says you are quite sure you have not seen him. I am puzzled by those statements.
Mr. Ryder. Like I continue to say all the way through on their investigation, both that Secret Service man and from the FBI that he could have been in the shop; I could have talked to him but to say I had definitely, I couldn't say I have really talked to him.
Mr. Liebeler. Could you say you definitely have ever seen him outside of the shop anyplace?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; I don't believe I have. I mean I couldn't say specific because back again to the common features, so on and so forth, but, actually, we have drawn a conclusion, of course, that is, I and the boys and people concerned at the sport shop there that it was either this Oswald with another gun or another Oswald with another gun. We know definitely that it was another gun. We know that for sure.
Mr. Liebeler. And you have already carefully considered the possibility of identifying that other gun but you are not able to do it?
Mr. Ryder. Right; Mr. Greener called all the other Oswalds listed in the Dallas and Irving directories.
Mr. Liebeler. He did that?
Mr. Ryder. Right, with no avail; in other words, nothing turned up.
Mr. Liebeler. Whose handwriting does the name Oswald appear to be written in?
Mr. Ryder. It's mine.
Mr. Liebeler. It is your own handwriting?
Mr. Ryder. It is my own handwriting; the whole thing was written up by me.
Mr. Liebeler. When did you first discover this tag?
Mr. Ryder. Well, it's kind of funny, actually, how I found the tag. My workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered around and I was—I had been to the Evinrude Service School——
Mr. Liebeler. Here in Dallas?
Mr. Ryder. Yeah, at the Marriott over here and we were talking about it that evening and, of course, by the time I got back from the service clinic was just about time to close and we left and that Saturday afternoon I started cleaning off the workbench and I found the ticket of which I didn't say anything to anybody else there and when Mr. Horton came out on Monday, well, then I told him we had a tag. I didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture and everything I apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that particular gun anyway.
Mr. Liebeler. How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?
Mr. Ryder. Actually, I don't know. He evidently was checking all of the——
Mr. Liebeler. Gunshops?
Mr. Ryder. Gunshops and hit us on Monday, well, let's see, it was, oh, it was about 10:30 or 11 that morning whenever he first came out.
Mr. Liebeler. You are not familiar with this particular kind of rifle, are you? You have not worked on any similar rifles?
Mr. Ryder. Well, there's quite a few similar but this particular one is a real oddity. It's an odd job and I have never worked on any. I have seen several.
Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever broken one down?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; never have. As a matter of fact, the only thing I can remember doing is just pulling the bolt back on it and closing it back up. That, to me, is common; I always make sure there's no shells or anything before I look at one. That's the first thing if you hand me a pistol, I kick the cylinder out or spin it through to make sure it's unloaded but this gun is real odd, I mean it's a crude-built gun.
Mr. Liebeler. When a gun is broken down, by that, I am sure you understand that I mean you remove the action and the barrel from the stock. The rifle then is, generally speaking, in two shorter pieces.
Mr. Ryder. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. The two pieces you have are shorter than the gun is when put together?
Mr. Ryder. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. That is generally true because the stock of the rifle doesn't ordinarily extend to the end of the barrel?
Mr. Ryder. Right; now on some military rifles they do extend all the way to the end of the barrel or close to the end, put it that way.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you note in connection with the picture that you observed of this rifle they found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you note whether or not on that rifle the stock went very close to the end of the barrel or didn't come out so far?
Mr. Ryder. As far as I remember it had been cut off, or, in other words, it didn't go to the end of the barrel, as far as I remember, I don't. I am quite sure it didn't. It went a little over half way in the picture that I saw.
Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that sometimes in the military rifles the stock goes quite far along the barrel?
Mr. Ryder. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. Is that not a common type of construction in a domestic rifle or nonmilitary rifle?
Mr. Ryder. Right; or nonmilitary or what we call a sporter rifle your stock goes half way to the end of the barrel leaving the end of the barrel to wiggle as it may. A military rifle, M-1, Garand, O3A3, 303, they all are of wood and completely encased around the barrel. In other words, you had a piece run all the way on the bottom of it; piece that filled in on the top side. Lot of people use military rifles or use sporter rifles that some cut the stock off at a slight angle, say, a little above half way of the barrel. Others go ahead and spend and buy the sporter-type stock they can fit their gun to, but as far as I remember, this stock on the picture didn't go all the way to the end of the barrel.
Mr. Liebeler. Unless you can think of anything else that you want to add at this point I just tell you for the record that my present inclination is to close the deposition at this point. I may wish to question you again and possibly bring the rifle down here so you can look at it. Unless you can think of anything else you want to add at this time that you think might be helpful, we will terminate. Can you think of anything else?
Mr. Ryder. No; I can't think of anything right now.
Mr. Liebeler. I want to ask one or two more questions. You mentioned you were interviewed by the Dallas police force about this. Do you remember the name of the man or men who talked to you on the Dallas police force?
Mr. Ryder. No, sir; I don't. Actually, I say Dallas Police Department, it was the sheriff's department rather than the Dallas Police Department, really. Of course, I connect the two together but they're two separate organizations; I know that.
Mr. Liebeler. In view of my former statement, I would like to thank you at this time. If we decide to continue with this, we will advise you in the future.