Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS L. CRAFARD RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 1:30 p.m.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Crafard, this is a continuation of the deposition which was recessed for the lunch hour. You understand that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority that we commenced it with, and likewise that you are under the same oath that you were under and that you took at the beginning of that deposition?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is that agreeable to you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when did you first hear that the President was going to visit Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 3 or 4 weeks before he came to Dallas. It was advertised in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working for Ruby at that time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; it came out in the papers that showed the proposed route and the proposed secondary route of this trip through the city.

Mr. Hubert. Are you saying that the first time you found out that he, President Kennedy, was going to visit the city, was when you read it in the newspapers?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And that in that account that you read in the newspapers, the proposed route and an alternate route was given?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been just a very few days before he actually came, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was at least a week before he came that that came out.

Mr. Hubert. At any rate, whatever day the proposed route came out in the papers that was the first day that you found out that the President was coming to Dallas at all?

Mr. Crafard. They had been thinking he was going to come to Dallas. They said something about it, but there was nothing definite at that time, I didn’t know anything definite about it until I read it in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. You had read something in the paper about his coming prior to the time that the route was set out?

Mr. Crafard. There was something in the paper about it figured he would come or something but so far as I can recall there was nothing definite until that same issue.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you ever talk to Ruby about it?

Mr. Crafard. No. There wasn’t much said about it in the club.

Mr. Hubert. Was anything said about it?

Mr. Crafard. Something the day the paper came out with the proposed route, we all said something about the fact that he was coming to town, Dallas, that it would probably help Dallas a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Help in what way?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe bring a few more conventions or something.

Mr. Hubert. Who said that?

Mr. Crafard. We all discussed it, Andy and Jack and I.

Mr. Hubert. Including Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember specifically a conference, or conversation, rather, of which there were three, at least, Jack Ruby and Andy Armstrong, at which it was mentioned that it was a good thing for Dallas because it would bring more conventions?

Mr. Crafard. It was in the paper, when Jack came to the club we already had the paper there and Jack came to the club and he read the paper and said something about it and then he said something to the effect that it might help Dallas a little bit because it might bring more conventions to Dallas, or something to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. That was the day that the paper came out with the route?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you talked to Ruby about the President’s visit prior to that day.

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Had you talked to anyone else?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t let me finish my question. Had you talked to anyone else about the fact that the President might be coming to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall anything about it, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When you say there was no conversation in the club about it other than what you have testified to——

Mr. Crafard. None that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was any mention made of the fact that in any conversation between you and Jack or anybody else about the fact that the parade would pass near the club?

Mr. Crafard. There was something said that we only have to walk a block, I think, or something like that, up where we could see the parade.

Mr. Hubert. Who said that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember whether it was Andy or myself.

Mr. Hubert. Could it have been Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. It might have been. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, either you or Andy made such a remark, and was Jack present when it was made?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You have a distinct recollection of that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t have a distinct recollection; no.

Mr. Hubert. Was it on the same occasion that you mentioned earlier that he came in and said about how it would improve the business?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was the day before the President’s trip, arrival in Dallas, Andy and I had been saying something about wanting to see it and some one of us said something about it was only about a block or something like that to go to see it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask Jack’s permission to leave to go watch it?

Mr. Crafard. I think we both told Jack that we was going to go watch it.

Mr. Hubert. You and Andy did?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Together?

Mr. Crafard. No; we didn’t figure on going. Andy was taking the day off so he could go and I told Jack I was figuring going on up and watching the parade.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about it?

Mr. Crafard. He didn’t say anything.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall him saying anything.

Mr. Hubert. You were asking him——

Mr. Crafard. Other than maybe telling me it was all right to go or something.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I was wondering. Did he express any consent or disapproval?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall what he said.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention what he was going to do about watching it?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell him where you were going to watch it, yourself?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. You recall, of course, the day that the President was shot.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall the night before that, which would have been Thursday night?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall it was more or less a general night for the club.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any special preparations by way of preparing for a larger crowd or for some program in connection with the President’s visit?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the night prior to the President’s visit was a routine night?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. I suppose you have put your mind to it since, particularly at the time it happened, because most people did, you know. They relate that historic event to their own lives and reconstruct what they were doing before and afterwards.

Did you do that? Have you ever done that?

Mr. Crafard. I have tried to think of what I was doing before, the night before, a couple nights before, or something like that. I don’t recall anything out of the ordinary.

Mr. Hubert. If it was the ordinary, then I suppose it would have been that the club were closed up at its usual hour.

Mr. Crafard. As far as I recall, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you were still sleeping there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I was still sleeping there.

Mr. Hubert. So you would have gone to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And then I suppose Ruby would have wakened you?

Mr. Crafard. Andy woke me that morning. He come in early. Andy always put the beer in and he come in early to do that so that he could have the rest of the day off.

Mr. Hubert. What time did Andy come in?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was about 9:30 or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Came in personally?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He was there when the President was shot.

Mr. Hubert. Were you asleep when he came in?

Mr. Crafard. I was asleep when he came in.

Mr. Hubert. Did you waken up when he came in?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t wake up—Andy woke me up and told me that the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. That was much later in the day, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. About 12:30?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you suppose to be doing your cleaning-up job?

Mr. Crafard. Ordinarily if I had been up, I would have been cleaning up; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Ordinarily he would have awakened you when he came in, wouldn’t he?

Mr. Crafard. Andy, when he came in he should have woke me up. I guess he said he had called me or something and I hadn’t woke up, I hadn’t got up or something.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t he know you wanted to go and see the parade?

Mr. Crafard. He knew I said something about it. I don’t know, I think maybe he had been down and saw us—down to see some of it or something and then come back to the club or something.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t leave word for anyone to call you to see the parade?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t it unusual for you to sleep that length of time?

Mr. Crafard. Not if I was tired and they didn’t call me, I’d sleep if they didn’t call me.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever done that before?

Mr. Crafard. I’ve seen the time when I went to sleep and slept 14 or 15 hours.

Mr. Hubert. No, I am talking about while you were at the club.

Mr. Crafard. At the club a couple times I slept until 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the afternoon before somebody woke me up.

Mr. Hubert. You had made no plans yourself to anticipate going to see the President?

Mr. Crafard. Not definite plans except if I got up I figured I’d go down and see it.

Mr. Hubert. And you intended to get up?

Mr. Crafard. I figured I’d wake up. I didn’t wake up.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go to bed, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, about 2:30 or 3 o’clock, or something.

Mr. Hubert. You slept clean around until 12:30 or after?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know Andy came in earlier?

Mr. Crafard. The beer was all taken care of, so I figured he had been in the club.

Mr. Hubert. You are not sure It was Andy that did that, then?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Put the beer on?

Mr. Crafard. Andy said something about doing it, he had done it earlier, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Was the beer normally delivered at a regular time?

Mr. Crafard. We had the beer delivered 2 days a week. Andy come in every day and put the beer in the cooler.

Mr. Hubert. Where was the beer delivered?

Mr. Crafard. It was delivered upstairs when it was delivered.

Mr. Hubert. Did somebody have to receive it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When was it delivered that day, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. It was delivered on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t delivered on this day, then?

Mr. Crafard. No, but he come up to put more beer in the cooler.

Mr. Hubert. That was his job?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He done that all the time.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have anything to do with it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Where would he carry the beer from, from what place to where?

Mr. Crafard. It would come in the front door of the club, there was a hallway off to the side here and come on over here and made an L. My room was here and he’d get the beer over here and take it out.

Mr. Hubert. He had to pass your room?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. He had to pass by it?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. He would come in the back of the club where the beer was stored?

Mr. Crafard. Probably he’d come in the front door and go up here and get the beer. My room was down here on this corner, and he would get the beer here.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave the door open or closed?

Mr. Crafard. My door was closed.

Mr. Hubert. Why was it closed?

Mr. Crafard. I closed it all the time.

Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you supposed to be sort of on guard, as it were, in addition to doing the job around there, that is part of your job having someone on the premises?

Mr. Crafard. I just figured having me sleep there, I guess. He never said anything to me about it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever awaken you oh other days when he brought the beer?

Mr. Crafard. If Andy came in when I was still in bed he’d usually wake me up, yes.

Mr. Hubert. But he did not this morning?

Mr. Crafard. He said he called me but I hadn’t woke up.

Mr. Hubert. He called you by telephone or in person?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know whether he called me by telephone, he said he tried to call me by telephone or called me when he come to the club or what.

Mr. Hubert. If he called you by telephone where would the telephone have been in reference to your room?

Mr. Crafard. In the room next to my room.

Mr. Hubert. Could you hear it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever been awakened before by it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, several times.

Mr. Hubert. There is no doubt then that if he had called you by telephone it would have awakened you?

Mr. Crafard. More likely I figured it would have, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Of course if he had tried to wake you by calling you, just through the door, that would have awakened you, I assume.

Mr. Crafard. I might have roused up, spoke to him and answered him and then got back down without even knowing it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it. I say I might have.

Mr. Griffin. When did he tell you that he called you?

Mr. Crafard. It was shortly after he did wake me up.

Mr. Hubert. How did he wake you up?

Mr. Crafard. He come in there and he had his radio up real loud when he come in there and he told me the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. And that was at what time?

Mr. Crafard. He called me two or three times. It was just after the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. How many times did he call you? You said two or three times?

Mr. Crafard. He called me two or three times at that time when he woke me up there he called me two or three times.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Crafard. He said so.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall it two or three times?

Mr. Crafard. I recall hearing him call me twice that I know of right then.

Mr. Hubert. And then that aroused you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been drinking the night before?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at, Larry, is why it was so difficult to wake you that morning.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I can understand that.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any explanation for it?

Mr. Crafard. None that I can think of except that I probably was a little tired, except a little tired from the night before when I went to bed.

Mr. Hubert. You do recall that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I went to bed and went right to sleep. I didn’t lie awake very long.

Mr. Hubert. Do you normally lay awake sometimes?

Mr. Crafard. I normally lay awake anywhere from an hour and a half to 2 hours.

Mr. Hubert. But this particular night you did not?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You weren’t drinking?

Mr. Crafard. No, not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Do you drink much?

Mr. Crafard. Very seldom. I drank, I think, three or four different times while I was there that I drank a beer or two, that was all.

Mr. Hubert. So that your heavy sleep on the morning of the 22d couldn’t be attributed to the fact that you had a hangover?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or that you were suffering from any overindulgence in alcohol?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t take any kind of sleeping pills or anything like that?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So this was just normal sleep?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And his call failed to wake you?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. What did he tell you when he first came in?

Mr. Crafard. The first thing he said was President Kennedy had been shot. He said, “The President has been shot.” I wouldn’t hardly believe him.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do?

Mr. Crafard. Immediately we went in and turned the television on. He had his radio going and I turned the television on and listened to his radio and then we had to turn the television up real loud where we could hear it. We were more interested in what was said than the pictures they was showing or anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what time it was?

Mr. Crafard. It was something like——

Mr. Hubert. I mean first of all when he woke you up.

Mr. Crafard. 20 or 25 to 12.

Mr. Hubert. To 12?

Mr. Crafard. Or after 12, to 1, I mean. I think it was something like that. I’m not sure. I didn’t have a watch on. I didn’t have a watch at that time.

Mr. Hubert. You began looking at the television. I suppose from the time that you woke up plus the time it took you to get dressed, or did you get dressed?

Mr. Crafard. As soon as he woke me up he went in and turned the television on while I was putting my pants on, putting my clothes on.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what was the first thing you saw on television?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a news commentator?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember which one?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the station it was on?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember what station it was on, either.

It was one of the local—I believe it was 12 that Dallas-Fort Worth—I believe that was the station.

Mr. Hubert. It was a Dallas station or a Fort Worth station?

Mr. Crafard. It is one there they call the Dallas-Fort Worth, WWTV12, I think it is.

Mr. Hubert. KLRD, is that what it is?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know what station it is. I am not sure whether it was WWTV.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there watching?

Mr. Crafard. We turned it up real loud where we could hear it and then listened to his radio, too, where we would hear both of them.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead, what happened next?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall exactly what was said except the fact that the President had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you continue to watch it?

Mr. Crafard. We watched it right up until—most of the day, I think, we had the television on there, then, most of the day.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do any of your work?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, I started to clean up. When Jack come in he said not to. He said, “We’re going to close the club for the weekend.”

Mr. Hubert. What time did he come in?

Mr. Crafard. It was about 2 or 2:30, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. About 2 hours after, do you think?

Mr. Crafard. About that; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what happened, how he looked, what he said and all that, when he came in?

Mr. Crafard. He was like everybody else, shocked.

Mr. Hubert. How did he manifest that shock?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. How did he manifest the shock? What did he do or say that gave you the impression that he was suffering from shock like everybody else?

Mr. Crafard. About the same thing as any of us said. We couldn’t really believe it.

Mr. Hubert. Was he crying, for example?

Mr. Crafard. He seemed to be very nervous. As far as really being crying, I couldn’t say for sure he had been crying. He wasn’t crying at the time, anyway.

Mr. Hubert. Was his nervousness, or his shock greater than, say, that which you could observe in Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe it was. He was much nervouser than Andy or I, either one was.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how did that come across to you, by what he said or did?

Mr. Crafard. It come across that it struck him pretty deep that Kennedy had been assassinated, had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. You see you have to get that impression from him in one of two ways. Either he said something or he did things, and that is what I want to find out, what he said or he did that creates an impression that now remains in your mind as being one of more shock than anybody else, and as you put it, extreme nervousness. You don’t get that impression except what you saw or you heard.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now that is what I want to find out, because it is one thing to have your impression but it is another thing to have what caused your impression.

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He couldn’t believe it had happened.

Mr. Hubert. He said so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What else did he do that was out of the ordinary?

Mr. Crafard. I was trying to think.

Mr. Hubert. Did he cry? You said a moment ago he did not.

Mr. Crafard. He said it was an outrageous crime, that it would ruin the city of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why, in what way it would ruin it?

Mr. Crafard. The fact that the President had been shot there in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Would ruin it how?

Mr. Crafard. As far as nightclubs, nightclub activity was concerned, for all nightclubs concerned, it would pretty well pull a lot of the conventions away, and such as that.

Mr. Hubert. So that when Ruby came back and expressed his concern about the shooting of the President, he adverted to the fact that that crime would hurt Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Would hurt the convention business and would hurt his business?

Mr. Crafard. He just said all nightclubs. He said the nightclub business in general, I believe, more than his personal business.

Mr. Hubert. Did he specifically advert to how that would affect the Carousel and the Vegas?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.

Andy and I both, I believe it was myself that made the statement that the guy, whoever had done that, had ought to hang, or something to that effect, and we was all pretty much in agreement on that subject. Our agreement on that was about the same.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, in this conference, I call it conference, I mean meeting that you and Andy and Jack had together, which commenced about 2 hours after the President’s assassination, you discussed the fact that it was a terrible crime, that it would hurt the city and the nightclub business and that the man who did it ought to be punished?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And Jack was a part of that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; we was all pretty much in agreement on that. We agreed to the fact it would——

Mr. Hubert. Did you know at that time who had done it or who was suspected of having done it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that earlier on the news, or something, I believe they suspected Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. Had he been mentioned by name?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he had; yes.

Mr. Hubert. That was prior to the time Ruby came in?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so, I’m not definite on that, but I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Well, Ruby came in, you are quite sure, about 2 hours after you heard of it?

Mr. Crafard. About 2 hours, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you heard of it at a little after 12:30?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; just shortly after it happened.

Mr. Hubert. So Jack told you that there is no use cleaning up?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. He said, “We’re going to close the club for the weekend.”

Mr. Hubert. What did he propose to do about the cleaning up job as to the club?

Mr. Crafard. Just leave it go until Monday.

Mr. Hubert. Just let it stay as it was until Monday?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And he so told you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had he made up his mind at that time to close the club for the entire weekend?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he just said for Friday and Saturday night at that time. He said something about cleaning up later on, or something, and then he come back later and he left.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see, how long did he stay, before we get to this point?

Mr. Crafard. He was there maybe a half hour or 45 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. What else did he do there besides converse with you as you have already testified?

Mr. Crafard. That was about it right there, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make any phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he called his sister. I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember that, yourself, or do you think perhaps you picked that up from reading about it somewhere?

Mr. Crafard. No; I believe that he called his sister on the phone right by the front door.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that is the public phone?

Mr. Crafard. No. We had three business phones on the same line in the club.

Mr. Hubert. The same number, you mean?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, with the same number.

Mr. Hubert. But there were different lines, you could make different calls from them?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. There was one phone with three extensions then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Two extensions?

Mr. Crafard. Two extensions.

Mr. Hubert. Was there a public phone there, too?

Mr. Crafard. The public phone was in the back in the hallway. I believe he called his sister from the front door phone there and talked to her and he told her he was coming over, or something.

Mr. Hubert. You overheard that?

Mr. Crafard. It was either at that time or later in the afternoon when he come back.

Mr. Hubert. On that first time that he was there, which was from 2:30 to about 3:15—would that be a fair estimate?

Mr. Crafard. About 3:15 or 3:30, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s do this. You mentioned a moment ago that he came in about 2:30 and stayed about a half hour to three-quarters of an hour. He came at 2:30 and left at about 3:30.

Then there is a possibility he stayed there an hour on his first visit.

Mr. Crafard. He might have been there anywhere between a half hour and three-quarters of an hour.

Mr. Hubert. Anyway, roughly between 3 and 3:30 is when he left?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And during that period he made one phone call, or you are not sure of that?

Mr. Crafard. I am not positive. I think he did, but I am not positive.

Mr. Hubert. If it should turn out that he did not call his sister on that occasion, do you recall any other phone calls that he made during the first visit?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure. It seems like there was a phone call to his brother or something that he called long distance either then or later in the day or something.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know he had called long distance?

Mr. Crafard. Because he had me get the address, get the number or something. He had me give him the phone number.

Mr. Hubert. Of which brother?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was the brother in Chicago—in Detroit, the Cobo Laundry.

Mr. Hubert. You are talking about Earl, aren’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that is right.

Mr. Hubert. He did not have Earl’s number?

Mr. Crafard. He had it, he had it in his book at home, and I had it wrote down in the book of phone numbers there in the office.

Mr. Hubert. And you then gave him the number, or dialed for him?

Mr. Crafard. I gave it to him, I believe, and he dialed it.

Mr. Hubert. You were present when he dialed?

Mr. Crafard. Andy and I were both there in the main part of the club where he was at.

Mr. Hubert. There was no one else in the club at that time?

Mr. Crafard. No; just Andy and I.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why he didn’t use his office phone?

Mr. Crafard. No; I have no idea, except that during the day when there was nobody else there he would more frequently use the front phone than he would the office phone. We’d been out there talking. We could all three—he’d have the table space to work and everything, count his money out, figure out the papers, and everything.

Mr. Hubert. You are unable to fix the time of that call to his brother, is that right?

Mr. Crafard. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Hubert. When did he come back after having left at, roughly, between 3 and 3:30?

Mr. Crafard. He come back about, I believe, about 4:30 or 5 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that he was gone about an hour to an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I would say so. He asked me if I wanted to go to his sister’s with him. He made quite a point of it, and I told him I’d prefer to stay at the club.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by making quite a point of it?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me two or three times about it.

Mr. Hubert. Did it strike you as odd?

Mr. Crafard. No; it just struck me as if he kind of wanted me to go. He thought it wouldn’t be—didn’t think it would be very good for me to stay there at the club by myself.

Mr. Hubert. Why not?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you that he thought——

Mr. Crafard. He said he thought it would be better for me to go with him than to stay at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him why he had such thought?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t. I didn’t think about it.

Mr. Hubert. What did you think of the nature of that remark to you?

Mr. Crafard. It didn’t have no effect on me whatsoever at the time.

Mr. Hubert. You had stayed at the club alone before, hadn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you think it rather odd that he would suggest in some way that it wouldn’t be proper for you to stay at the club?

Mr. Crafard. At that time it didn’t strike me at all. I didn’t even think about it. I was still pretty shook up, myself.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been doing any work in the interval when he was gone?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make any phone calls when he came back?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he called his sister at that time. I’m not positive, but I believe he called her at that time and told her he’d be right over.

Mr. Hubert. When did he leave after having returned?

Mr. Crafard. He was only there for about 10 or 15, maybe 20 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he call his sister twice?

Mr. Crafard. He called her then, I’m almost positive that he called her that time and told her he’d be right over.

I told him that I’d prefer to stay at the club because, well, I knew his sister was highly emotional from what little I had talked to her on the telephone a couple of times, she called for Jack and she always seemed very nervous on the phone and everything.

Mr. Hubert. As I understand you now, it is quite clear that he did call his sister Eva?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When he came back the second time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I’m almost positive.

Mr. Hubert. That is when he stayed about 10 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He left about 4:30 or 5, right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Having stayed there only 10 minutes, whatever time he did come?

Mr. Crafard. He stayed only 10 or 15 minutes. He hadn’t been there very long.

Mr. Hubert. From the time that you first heard of the President’s death until he left that second time to go to his sister’s, had he called his sister once or twice?

Mr. Crafard. I believe, that was the second time he called her that day, I’m not positive.

Mr. Hubert. So that the first call must have been through the first, during the first visit, mustn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so, because he only made the one phone call when he came back the last time.

Mr. Hubert. Now, with relation to the call to his brother, is your memory fresh now as to whether that call was made during his first visit between 2:30 and 3 o’clock, 2:30 and 3:30, or on his second visit when he stayed 10 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. That was made on the first visit, I’m almost positive of that. I can only recall of one phone call he made and that was to his sister when he come back the second time.

Mr. Hubert. He was there only 10 minutes, he called her and he asked you several times?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me two or three times to go with him and I told him I’d rather not because she was highly nervous and I didn’t care to be around her. I hardly never——

Mr. Hubert. What did he say to you about being worried about your staying at the club?

Mr. Crafard. He just thought it would be better for me to be with somebody than to be by myself, I guess, because I was shook up, kind of shook up about what had happened.

Mr. Hubert. How were you showing that? I mean, what manifestations.

Mr. Crafard. I guess more or less a look in my face, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to indicate that he feared for your safety?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. But what you are telling us is that at the time you had no reaction whatsoever to that suggestion of his that it would be better for you not to stay at the club?

Mr. Crafard. I had no reaction at all to it.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know whether he meant your safety or your own personal feelings or really what he meant?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t ask him what he meant?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So he just then openly allowed you to stay on?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was Armstrong still there during that time?

Mr. Crafard. No; Andy—I was alone at the club.

Mr. Hubert. When did Andy leave?

Mr. Crafard. Andy left just shortly after Jack had left the first time.

Mr. Hubert. About what, 5 or 10 minutes after?

Mr. Crafard. About maybe 10 or 15 minutes later. When Jack was there the second time before he left, he give me a sign, he told me to make up a sign that said we’d be closed Friday and Saturday, put it downstairs about 6:30.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do it in pencil or pen?

Mr. Crafard. I made it with pencil and put it downstairs.

Mr. Hubert. Was that before or after he asked you to——

Mr. Crafard. That was after he left the second time.

Mr. Hubert. No; you misunderstood my question. Did he ask you to make that sign before or after he asked you to go to Eva’s with him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe, that was afterwards, after the first stay there at the club.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. Crafard. Make up a sign that we’d be closed. He had a closed sign. He said, “Take it down there and put it downstairs about 7:30 or quarter to eight”, and he said, “Wait until the other clubs open. Let them”—he said, I think it was, “Let them damn guys stay open”, or something to that effect, quite similar to the wording there, I’m not sure what the wording was, that wording was.

Mr. Hubert. He got over to you, though, that he was going to close, that he wanted you to prepare and put up a sign, but to do it in such a way that his competitors wouldn’t know he was anticipating that?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you so in so many words?

Mr. Crafard. He said, wait until they opened before I put it up. He said something like “Let those damn fools open if they want”, or something to that effect, or “Stay open”, or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any other instructions?

Mr. Crafard. That was about it. He asked me where I was going to eat and I told him and he said something about he’d call me in about an hour. He said to go ahead and eat then and he said “I’ll call you in about an hour.”

So he called me—I don’t even remember what he said then. It was just I guess he asked me if there had been any phone calls or something. It wasn’t much. The conversation wasn’t but about a dozen words at most.

Mr. Hubert. Had there been any phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. No; not while I was at the club. I waited until about 30 minutes after he left and then I went to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you eat?

Mr. Crafard. To the drugstore, Walgreen Drugstore.

Mr. Hubert. You ate alone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You came back to the club?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What time was it when you got back?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 6:20 or 6:30, something like that, I guess—a little later.

Mr. Hubert. When did you next hear from Ruby or see him?

Mr. Crafard. I never saw him again until the next morning. He called me from Eva’s, talked with me for a few minutes, about an hour after he left. I just got back from eating.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know he was at Eva’s?

Mr. Crafard. He said he was at Eva’s, and then I could hear her voice. They was watching on television.

Mr. Hubert. What was the subject of that conversation?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I can recall, he just asked me if there had been any calls, as far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. And you simply told him no?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you about the sign?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told him I had it ready and he made sure, he told me again what time—not to put it up until after about 7:30 or a quarter to eight.

Mr. Hubert. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. Crafard. It was just a very few minutes. It couldn’t have been more than two dozen words spoken at the most.

Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any indication as to what his plans were?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything about going to church?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. I think he said something about I could reach him at Eva’s if I needed him for anything, I think he said.

Mr. Hubert. And this you think was between 6:15 and 6:30, or long in there?

Mr. Crafard. I prefer to say between 6:30 and 7.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do with the rest of the day?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed at the club and watched it on television.

Mr. Hubert. You were alone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Nobody else came at all?

Mr. Crafard. No. The door was locked downstairs, nobody could get up.

Mr. Hubert. Did you put up the sign?

Mr. Crafard. I waited until about a quarter to eight before I put up the sign.

Mr. Hubert. Were the other clubs open?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they were closed too. I am not sure. I am not positive about that.

Mr. Hubert. Any phone calls come at all the rest of the evening?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. You were there alone that night?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You just watched television until you went to bed?

Mr. Crafard. I watched television for quite a while. I watched television most of the afternoon. It seemed like the more I watched it, the worse it made me feel, in a way, so I just quit watching it. I had a couple of books there and I read most of the afternoon and the evening.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go to bed?

Mr. Crafard. I must have went to bed probably about 9 or 9:30, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. And there were no phone calls?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. I believe there was—about midnight I believe it was, there was a call. I don’t even know why this girl called. I don’t even know why she called. I talked to her for a few minutes and then I took the phone out of the office. It had a big long cord on it and I carried it in by my bed. I stretched out on the bed and we talked for quite a long time.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the girl?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t even remember her name. I had never met her before or ever heard from her again.

Mr. Hubert. Who did she say she was?

Mr. Crafard. She give me her name. I don’t remember what her name was.

Mr. Hubert. What did she say her business was, why did she call?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about wanting a job with the club or something.

Mr. Hubert. It was not a girl that worked at the club in any way?

Mr. Crafard. No; she was not connected with the club.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think she did identify herself?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I know she identified herself.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t remember who she was?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You had never seen her before?

Mr. Crafard. No. I had never met the girl.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t recognize the name?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize the voice?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. As far as you could say then this was a complete stranger to you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you speak to her?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, we must have talked altogether for about an hour, an hour and a half, and then hung up, and about 15 or 20 minutes she called back and talked for a couple of hours.

Mr. Hubert. Now you talked to this girl for a total of about 3 hours that night?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What was it all about?

Mr. Crafard. Just more or less talking, getting acquainted. More than anything over the phone, the best I could.

Mr. Hubert. Did she indicate where she was?

Mr. Crafard. She was baby sitting for a friend of hers. She give me to understand she was to catch a bus out of town the next morning, about 5:30.

Mr. Hubert. In the course of the conversation did you try to find out why she had called the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. She called, she said, to start with, when we first started talking, she had called to find out about a job in the club. I don’t know why she done it that way—that is what she said, as far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was she aware that the President was dead?

Mr. Crafard. Yes: I believe we discussed that a little bit too. T don’t recall what was said.

Mr. Hubert. The first time you spoke to her, you said it was about midnight—right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You had been asleep?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I had just started dozing off when the phone rang.

Mr. Hubert. And you spoke to her then about an hour?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe—I’m not sure—I think Little Lynn called.

Mr. Hubert. What time did she call?

Mr. Crafard. Just the one time that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. What time?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was about 9:30 or 10 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. What did she say?

Mr. Crafard. After I laid down.

Mr. Hubert. What did she want?

Mr. Crafard. She wanted to talk to Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you what about?

Mr. Crafard. No; she just said it was urgent. I believe I told her Jack was at Eva’s and give her Eva’s number.

Mr. Hubert. Where was she?

Mr. Crafard. She was at her home in Fort Worth, as I understood.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a long-distance call?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Any other workers, waitresses or girls come in that night?

Mr. Crafard. No, none. Jack had had Andy call all of them to tell them not to come in.

Mr. Hubert. Now when you ended the conversation with this girl that began about midnight, was there an arrangement for one or the other of you to call up again in a few minutes?

Mr. Crafard. No; I told her I’d like to talk to her again. I told her I’d like to meet her. I told her I’d like to get acquainted with her. I tried to get her to talk a little longer. She said she had to hang up. And then she called me back 15 or 20 minutes later.

Mr. Hubert. And then you continued to talk for a couple of hours?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How did that end up?

Mr. Crafard. Some one of the younger kids there woke up or something.

Mr. Hubert. Had you made any arrangement to meet her, to see her?

Mr. Crafard. No; no definite arrangements. I tried to get her to tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. She wouldn’t even tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. I told her I’d meet her before she caught the bus, but she wouldn’t tell me where she was leaving.

Mr. Hubert. This conversation in fact, Larry, was kind of a love making on the phone deal, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. More or less what you might say an attempt.

Mr. Hubert. And part of that attempt of course would be trying to find out who she was and where you could meet her, wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Who she was and where I could meet her at her likes and her dislikes, such as that.

Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t tell you any of that?

Mr. Crafard. No, she wouldn’t tell me where I could meet her at or anything, but other than we really talked as if we known each other for months, actually.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t write down her name, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. I think I wrote her name down, but I never could get her phone number.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you write it down?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I wrote it down in that notebook I had. I’m not sure. I don’t have her name now. I never had her name after I left Texas, I know that.

Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize that name in the notebook?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not even sure of that.

Mr. Hubert. We will have an opportunity.

Mr. Griffin. Did she sound like a young girl? How old a person was she?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she said she was 19, 18 or 19 years old.

Mr. Hubert. She told you, didn’t she, that she had to be at the bus station at 5 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was 5, 5:30 or 6 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. There is only one bus station there, isn’t there?

Mr. Crafard. Two bus stations, Trailways and Greyhound.

Mr. Hubert. Did you find out which one?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t tell you that?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you what time the bus was going to leave?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about she had to leave where she was at 5:30 or 6 o’clock to catch the bus.

Mr. Hubert. To catch the bus?

Mr. Crafard. To catch the bus.

Mr. Hubert. To go where?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said she was going to Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. Did you try to find out what buses from either station were leaving around that time?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t call the bus depots or anything. I wasn’t that interested in it.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you were interested enough in her to talk with her for 3 hours. I wondered if you weren’t interested enough to find out if you couldn’t meet her by going to one of the bus stations.

Mr. Crafard. She talked—she was leaving town and didn’t figure on being back for quite a little while.

Mr. Hubert. When did she tell you that?

Mr. Crafard. Shortly after we started—I believe just shortly before we finished the conversation I started to find out where to meet her at.

Mr. Hubert. Which was it? What killed your interest? Is that what you are trying to tell us?

Mr. Crafard. I figured she was leaving town, there wasn’t no sense in going to too much trouble to try and meet her if she was leaving town and wasn’t figuring on being back.

First, she talked like she was going to be gone for the weekend, and then just shortly before we finished the conversation, she give me to understand that she would be gone on a prolonged, for a prolonged period of time.

Mr. Hubert. So this girl then, who was going for a long period of time, you suggest was willing to talk with you for 3 hours and the conversation, the general tenor of which was sort of love making on the phone, as it were?

Mr. Crafard. As you would put it; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you find out or try to find out her phone number?

Mr. Crafard. I asked for her—I tried to get her phone number where she was at. I tried to get her home phone number. I tried to get her address. She wouldn’t.

Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t give you any of that?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Can you give us any idea what subject you could possibly have talked about for that length of time?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly we discussed our different hobbies, our likes and dislikes. Like I say, the conversation was more as if we had known each other for 2 or 3 weeks or better.

Mr. Hubert. You must have made more than one effort to try to get her phone number and her address.

Mr. Crafard. Several times I tried.

Mr. Hubert. What reason did she ascribe for not giving it to you?

Mr. Crafard. She said she was at a neighbor’s place. She was babysitting for some friends of hers.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; but you had asked her for her home address as well?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Her home phone?

Mr. Crafard. She just wouldn’t give me any reason for not giving me her home phone number that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see, that means that she was a person who was going out of town and did not want to talk to you any more, and didn’t want to give you her number.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Or where you could reach her?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. But she spoke to you for 3 hours?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Larry, when she called did she ask for anyone in particular?

Mr. Crafard. She asked if it was the Carousel.

Mr. Griffin. And then what did she say?

Mr. Crafard. And I said yes, and I asked her if there was something I could do for her. I believe she said she had called in answer to an ad in the paper.

Mr. Griffin. Was there an ad in the paper?

Mr. Crafard. Ruby continuously run an ad for girls. After I got to talking to her—it’s kind of funny as all get-out—getting ready to leave town the next morning and then calling in in response to this ad.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you got the impression after talking with her for a while that she really hadn’t called in response to that ad.

Mr. Crafard. I got the impression she was kind of a kook, in a way. I have known of girls to do this, call up strange people and talk to them as long as the person will talk to them.

Mr. Hubert. Do you do that too?

Mr. Crafard. No; I have never done that, not that way.

Mr. Hubert. So it was not your normal way of doing?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. And it was the middle of the night, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Why do you think you did that?

Mr. Crafard. Just talked to her, somebody to talk to. I wasn’t sleepy. Somebody to talk to more than anything.

Mr. Hubert. You see the point—that that would be a story that would be much easier to accept if the time element was not present.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I understand.

Mr. Hubert. You must admit it is rather extraordinary for two strangers to speak as long as you did on two separate occasions when apparently there was no particular purpose about it, and no particular future to it.

Mr. Crafard. I can’t explain it.

Mr. Hubert. Did she indicate that she was somebody with the Carousel operation, what it was like?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did she say what she wanted to do there, what kind of a job she wanted?

Mr. Crafard. It was a job for waitresses was what he run all the time.

Mr. Hubert. Did she mention that is what she was applying for?

Mr. Crafard. She mentioned the fact that she was calling in connection with the ad.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you must have asked her what she looked like.

Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; I asked her for a general description of herself, measurements and weight.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what she said?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall, she give me her general height and weight, color of her eyes, her hair.

Mr. Hubert. What was all that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you don’t remember whether she was a blonde or a brunette?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she said she had brown hair.

Mr. Hubert. Then you do recall about that?

Mr. Crafard. I think that is what she said. I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. What about her height? What mental impression did you form as to what sort of a person she must look like?

Mr. Crafard. From the description she give me, I figured she must be a fairly nice looking girl.

Mr. Hubert. I judged that you had that impression. Did she have a good figure?

Mr. Crafard. If I recall right, she more than likely must have had. That is about 90 percent of a girl’s looks anyway.

Mr. Hubert. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. I figure that is about 90 percent of a girl’s looks, physical looks, is her figure.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you are attentive to that sort of thing?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; like any other man.

Mr. Hubert. I am not critical. It brings me back to the point that you said you didn’t remember what she looked like. I suggest perhaps that you do. It is a little bit more than you are telling us.

Mr. Crafard. I figured that she must have been a pretty nice—had a pretty decent figure from her description and everything, or I wouldn’t have thought she was a fairly good looking girl if she hadn’t give a pretty good description of her figure. But as far as the measurements, I can’t remember the exact measurements or anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. But she was a brunette and she had a good figure. Did she say anything about her weight?

Mr. Crafard. She must have been fairly light. It seemed attractive to me because I like a smaller female. It must have been about 100 or 105, something like that. But I don’t remember the exact weight or anything.

Mr. Hubert. But you do remember that the weight was attractive to you?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been light.

Mr. Hubert. And therefore it was light. Are there any other preferences of yours that would help us to determine that she told you?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can think of, other than a good figure and a fairly decent height.

Mr. Hubert. How did she describe her face?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t really remember how she described her face, it has been so blasted long ago.

Mr. Hubert. When the first part of this conversation ended, did she tell you she was going to call you back?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I said something to her about calling me back if she got the chance, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did she say why she had to end the conversation, the first conversation?

Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about the kids she was babysitting with, or something.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that she had to attend to them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that she had to end the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. To tell you the truth what I thought, I kind of had the idea all the way through it sounded to me like it was a bunch of older guys and gals in the background giggling all the time. It seems to me like it was a dare they had put her up to just to see how long a person would talk to her, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Then there were people?

Mr. Crafard. It sounded like.

Mr. Hubert. Other than babies?

Mr. Crafard. She kept saying she was babysitting with these kids and that was all that was there was these young kids.

Mr. Hubert. But you heard adults in the background?

Mr. Crafard. It sounded to me like it was at least teenagers, kids at least in their midteens, if not older, and I kind of had the idea that they had probably put her up to a dare.

Mr. Hubert. And you were willing to go along with that?

Mr. Crafard. Sure; why not? I would probably never see her.

Mr. Hubert. And you haven’t?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: You may have met some girls since then, but in any case those that you have met have not identified themselves or become identified with that girl?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That would take us until about 3 o’clock in the morning wouldn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Right about that; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you asleep?

Mr. Crafard. I think I dozed off about then, and by then this call came from Jack.

Mr. Hubert. What time was that?

Mr. Crafard. That must have been between 3:30 and 3:45, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. How long after the call with the girl?

Mr. Crafard. It wasn’t but about—it couldn’t have been more than a half hour.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack indicate that he had been trying to get you but the line had been busy?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What did he want?

Mr. Crafard. He wanted me to get dressed to meet him downstairs with the camera, Polaroid Land camera, with extra films and extra bulbs.

Mr. Hubert. That is the camera you told us was previously used for taking the pictures of customers?

Mr. Crafard. Taking the pictures of what?

Mr. Hubert. Of customers.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you whether you knew how to operate that camera?

Mr. Crafard. I think there had been some discussion about the camera on a couple—on a previous occasion about it.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, you had operated it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had operated it at the club a couple of times.

Mr. Hubert. He knew you had?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think there was something said a couple of nights before, something about it.

Mr. Hubert. You had taken pictures of the customers, as you frequently did, to give them as they danced with the girls? And he knew that you had done that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, see; yea, he knew that I had done it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you if you knew how to operate one?

Mr. Crafard. He asked me if I knew how to change the film, that is what it was. I told him yes.

Mr. Hubert. So what happened then?

Mr. Crafard. So I went ahead and got dressed. I had just got dressed and got the film and bulbs and was starting to get the camera when this guy from the garage called up and told me Jack was downstairs and wanted me to hurry. So I went out downstairs and got in the car.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the guy from the garage?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what his name was.

Mr. Hubert. A white man?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a white boy.

Mr. Hubert. White woman?

Mr. Crafard. White man.

Mr. Hubert. White man. Did he telephone you or come up?

Mr. Crafard. He telephoned up. He couldn’t have come up. The door was locked.

Mr. Hubert. So Jack was there?

Mr. Crafard. Outside in the car when I went down, Jack and George Senator.

Mr. Hubert. How long was that after you had spoken to Jack?

Mr. Crafard. It couldn’t have been more than a half hour at the most, because I hadn’t much more than got dressed when he called from upstairs.

Mr. Hubert. As I understood it, about a half hour after you finished talking to the girl you were just about dozing when Jack called?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And said he would be right down?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You got up and dressed?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You fetched the camera?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And the bulbs and the film?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you load the camera then?

Mr. Crafard. The camera was loaded.

Mr. Hubert. It was already loaded?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he know that?

Mr. Crafard. He knew it was loaded but nobody had any idea exactly how many—we didn’t know for sure how many pictures were left in it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you take some extra film?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It was all there?

Mr. Crafard. A roll of extra film.

Mr. Hubert. All of that wouldn’t take a half hour, would it?

Mr. Crafard. I washed up, I imagine, before I got dressed. I usually did.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you where you were going?

Mr. Crafard. Not until after we went out there. We took off and I said, “Where are we going?” He didn’t say anything. He went on out there.

Mr. Hubert. When he called by telephone the first time did he tell you where he was?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure. I don’t remember whether he did or not.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he was?

Mr. Crafard. I took it for granted he was at the home as far as I figured.

Mr. Hubert. Was there anything that you now recall that would help you remember as to whether he was calling from home or not?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. So in fact you really don’t know where he was?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you think it was as much as a half hour after he called that you got the call from the garageman to come down?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And he and Senator were in the car?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Senator was in front?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; Jack and Senator were both in front.

Mr. Hubert. You got in the back?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. And you drove off?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. It is at that time I think you said you asked him what this was all about?

Mr. Crafard. I think I said something about where are we going.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Mr. Crafard. He said “I want you to take some pictures.”

Mr. Hubert. And did you ask him where?

Mr. Crafard. He was driving then.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him of what?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall if I asked him about what or not. I think him and Senator were talking.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what they were talking about?

Mr. Crafard. Something about an ad, I think an ad, a sign or something like that. When we got out there, it was “Impeach Earl Warren” sign at the corner of the North Central Expressway.

Mr. Hubert. And what?

Mr. Crafard. North Central and Hall, I believe it is.

Mr. Griffin. Would you describe this intersection that you think that you took this sign—

Mr. Crafard. It was just like most of the expressway intersections are. Around—come around under this bridge under an overcrossing and a road into the side here, and another one comes square into it here over the other side of the bridge. It was a building set in here.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you this: How do you know it was the North Expressway and Hall?

Mr. Crafard. The sign on the corner.

Mr. Hubert. You saw the sign that said that?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. We parked right beside the sign.

Mr. Hubert. And you have no questions about your memory on that? It was next to a sign saying North Expressway?

Mr. Crafard. It was on the North Central Expressway. I believe it was the North Central and Hall.

Mr. Hubert. You parked by the sign which designated both streets?

Mr. Crafard. I believe—yes; I believe that was the name of the streets. I am not sure of the side street, but I believe it was Hall.

Mr. Griffin. You drove out of town from the Carousel Club. Did you drive north on the North Central Expressway?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know which way. I don’t even know exactly which way the North Central Expressway runs.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: This overpass that was near the intersection, did you go under the overpass before you got to the sign?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now the sign, was that located facing traffic that comes into town or traffic that goes out of town?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was facing traffic coming into town; I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. And was there a place to park near that sign?

Mr. Crafard. On a side street that I believe is Hall.

Mr. Griffin. Could you pull off what you believe to be Hall Street, could you pull off the road at that point and drive right up next to the sign?

Mr. Crafard. There was a curb up—you would have to go over the curb to do so, I believe. I think we parked along the curb here and got out and walked across this open, small open space to the building the sign was on.

Mr. Griffin. How large was the sign?

Mr. Crafard. It was I think about 3-foot long and about the same height, 3 or 4 foot.

Mr. Griffin. And what kind of a standard or support was it on?

Mr. Crafard. It was on a building.

Mr. Griffin. It was actually plastered on a building?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. About how high up on the building was it?

Mr. Crafard. I’d say about 5 or 6 foot.

Mr. Hubert. How many pictures did you take?

Mr. Crafard. I took three photographs.

Mr. Hubert. Were those instantaneous print pictures?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; 10-second Polaroid.

Mr. Hubert. After you had finished taking them, what happened?

Mr. Crafard. We got back in the car and went back into town to one of those cafes and had coffee.

Mr. Hubert. What is the name of the cafe?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of the cafe. I could take a person right to it, but I can’t tell you the name.

Mr. Hubert. How far away was it from the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. About 2½ blocks.

Mr. Hubert. Which way?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it would be south.

Mr. Hubert. What was it, on Commerce Street?

Mr. Crafard. It was half a block off Commerce, two blocks down Commerce and half a block off.

Mr. Hubert. Was Senator with you then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, the three of us were together. We went in and had coffee, and I believe Jack showed the pictures to the man there in the cafe.

Mr. Hubert. What did Jack say about the pictures at any time, commencing from the time you took them till——

Mr. Crafard. There was some reference made between the address on the pictures and the address on an ad he had saw in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Who made that reference?

Mr. Crafard. Ruby made the reference.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the context of the reference, what the idea was contained in his reference?

Mr. Crafard. The fact that there was quite a similarity—he said something about the numbers were the same when turned around a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that the numbers——

Mr. Crafard. In the address.

Mr. Hubert. The numbers in the address of the sign of which you had taken a picture were similar to those in an advertisement of some sort?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I could understand, a hate advertisement that he had saw in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have that hate advertisement with him?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did he express his thoughts as to what he proposed to do with those pictures?

Mr. Crafard. He said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see who had a box number, a certain box, or something.

Mr. Hubert. Other than that, did he mention what he wanted the pictures for?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in the cafe?

Mr. Crafard. We was there long enough to drink coffee, and that is about it.

Mr. Hubert. That would be about how many minutes?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, maybe 20 or 25 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go next?

Mr. Crafard. Then they took me over to the Carousel Club and dropped me off at the Carousel Club.

Mr. Hubert. What time was that?

Mr. Crafard. This was about 5, maybe 5:20. I’d say between 5 and 5:30.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do next?

Mr. Crafard. I went back upstairs and put the camera up.

Mr. Hubert. And then what?

Mr. Crafard. I think I picked up a book and read another book or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. Read a book or something.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t sleepy at that time.

Mr. Hubert. I said did you go to sleep?

Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. What is the next thing that happened?

Mr. Crafard. About 8:30, I think it was, I called Jack. When I had been with them I said something about dogfood, and Jack had said he’d bring some back, so I called him about 8:30 and said—I guess I woke him up or something. He was fairly shook up over the phone and chewed me out a little bit about waking him up at that time in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever wakened him up at that time before?

Mr. Crafard. No; I had never called him before in the morning, like that.

Mr. Hubert. What made you do so on this occasion?

Mr. Crafard. He wanted me to be sure and feed the dogs, and I didn’t have any dogfood to feed them. He was usually up by that time in the morning, the way he talked. He said he always got up at 7 o’clock every morning, and I called him, figured when he did come down he could bring dogfood down.

Mr. Hubert. You expressed two thoughts a little while ago. I want to, there again, get the factual basis for those thoughts or impressions. One, that he was shook up, and the other that he chewed you out. Those are both impressions that are based upon facts. What were the facts?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the way he answered the phone, he was kind of teed off, you know, sort of teed off. He answered the phone in a grumpy way. He had never spoke to me on the phone that way before.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Mr. Crafard. He just give me the daylights for calling him.

Mr. Hubert. How did he give you the daylights?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what he said exactly.

Mr. Hubert. Did he curse?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say that you were stupid? Did he use some words that you didn’t like, that gave you the impression he was mad at you?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what he said, sir.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, whatever words they were, they were not polite?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Shall I put it that way?

Mr. Crafard. It was his general way of speaking to me, more like—he talked to me more like he always did with Andy, when he was mad with Andy, when he was bawling Andy out for something.

Mr. Hubert. Was it the tone of voice more than the actual words?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was both. One thing his voice was very loud, and he knew how that grated on me.

Mr. Hubert. He had talked to you like that before?

Mr. Crafard. On one occasion, and I had stopped him. I told him I didn’t like it. I told him if he wanted to talk to me, to talk to me, not to yell at me.

Mr. Hubert. How long ago had that been before?

Mr. Crafard. Just shortly after I went to work for him.

Mr. Hubert. And he had never done it since?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. But he did do it on this occasion?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You also said that he seemed shook up, I think, or what were the words you used there?

Mr. Griffin. That are used?

Mr. Hubert. No; that he used.

Mr. Griffin. I think he said “shook up.”

Mr. Crafard. I believe I did.

Mr. Hubert. And that he had chewed you out. I had asked you for a separate basis of facts for both of those, both of those mental impressions you got. Is your explanation intended to cover both of them?

Mr. Crafard. About the only thing I could figure, it would be the same for the other.

Mr. Hubert. As I gather it then——

Mr. Crafard. He was shook up, mad.

Mr. Hubert. He was mad at you?

Mr. Crafard. That is what I believe I was using the term “shook up” to mean.

Mr. Hubert. He was mad at you and he chewed you out.

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention anything about the President?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was it simply that here was a man who had been asleep and who had been wakened and he was mad because somebody had wakened him up?

Mr. Crafard. It could have been. That is what I took it as.

Mr. Hubert. That is what you took it as?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He used the tone of voice with you that he had used once before which you didn’t like, and you told him about?

Mr. Crafard. He said something else. I don’t remember what it was he said.

Mr. Hubert. What was it like?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. What was it like in addition to this? Was it something particularly more aggravating to you?

Mr. Crafard. I would think it was pertaining to the President or something there. I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. Hubert. Well, pass it. Perhaps we will come back to it in a little while. How long did that conversation last, about?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe 5 minutes at the most.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say about the dogs?

Mr. Crafard. He said he would bring some dog food down.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you when?

Mr. Crafard. No; he said, “When you come.”

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you when to come?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. This you say was about 8:30?

Mr. Crafard. About 8:30.

Mr. Hubert. It lasted 5 minutes?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had Andy come yet?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. Had Andy come yet?

Mr. Crafard. No; Andy wasn’t coming in. The club was closed.

Mr. Hubert. The club still hadn’t been cleaned up?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mr. Crafard. I think I went over and had breakfast.

Mr. Hubert. Right away?

Mr. Crafard. Shortly after that. Within 10 or 15 minutes, it was.

Mr. Hubert. You were still dressed, I take it, because you had never undressed?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. You hadn’t been to sleep at all?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You hadn’t been to sleep at all that night?

Mr. Crafard. Not very much, dozed off a couple of times or so, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. I mean what with reading the book after you went to bed and the telephone conversation, or both of them, with the girl?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And then the visit outside with Jack and then going back and reading some more, and then the call at 8:30, as I understand you, correct me if I am wrong, you didn’t really sleep at all that night?

Mr. Crafard. No; that’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go to breakfast?

Mr. Crafard. I went over to the Walgreen drugstore.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get back?

Mr. Crafard. I was gone about a half hour, approximately—probably 9:15 or 9:30.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What happened then?

Mr. Crafard. I sat around the club there for quite a while. Then I decided to leave, so I took off.

Mr. Hubert. When did you reach your decision to leave?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. It must have been about 11 or 11:15, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any money?

Mr. Crafard. I had $5, and that was it.

Mr. Hubert. Were you owed any money?

Mr. Crafard. Like I say, there was no—he had come to an agreement to give me some money, but I didn’t know how much he had figured on giving me, or anything. I think I took $5 out of the till, if I remember correct, and left a draw slip in the till.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any money other than the $5?

Mr. Crafard. I think I had $2 in my pocket.

Mr. Hubert. So you had $7, all together?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you going?

Mr. Crafard. I went to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Had you determined at that time that you were going to Michigan?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had wrote to my sister quite a while before that, and I had got no answer, and I had been worrying, wondering what the devil was wrong there because she never failed to answer me right away.

Mr. Hubert. Was that the reason that you decided to go, to find out?

Mr. Crafard. It was the only reason that I know of I was going.

Mr. Hubert. What I want to get at is what was your motivation for leaving.

Mr. Crafard. Well, I had been wanting to go up to Michigan to see my sister and find out what was wrong.

Mr. Hubert. And that was the reason you went?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, this little rhubarb you had with Jack wasn’t the real cause of it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That had nothing to do with your decision?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave any note to say what you were doing?

Mr. Crafard. No; I left the key down with the boy at the garage, and told him to give it to Jack when Jack come in.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave any verbal message that you were leaving?

Mr. Crafard. I think I told him to tell Jack I said goodby.

Mr. Hubert. Don’t you think you owed him more than that?

Mr. Crafard. I never stopped to give it a thought.

Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t you call him and tell him that you wanted to go and see your sister?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. I haven’t got any idea.

Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t you wait until he came in and tell him?

Mr. Crafard. I made up my mind to go, and that was it.

Mr. Hubert. How did you propose to travel that distance with $7?

Mr. Crafard. Hitchhike.

Mr. Hubert. Have you done that before in your life?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. You told absolutely nobody but the garageman that you were leaving; is that right?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right. He is the only one I spoke to. I gave him the key and told him to tell Jack I said goodby.

Mr. Hubert. You did not tell him where you were going?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you in fact go? What route did you take?

Mr. Crafard. I went out and took, I think it is 77, I believe it is—right outside of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you walk there?

Mr. Crafard. I walked out about 15 or 18 blocks, I think it is, and a guy I had met out at the fair picked me up. He saw me.

Mr. Hubert. Did you arrange for him to pick you up?

Mr. Crafard. No; he was going by, he saw me, and he recognized me.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what his name is. He worked out there for a while. I never did know his name. I don’t think he knew my name. He recognized me as having worked out there.

Mr. Hubert. You were on the highway hitchhiking at that time?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have a bag?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How large was it?

Mr. Crafard. It was a regular satchel and I had another bag.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of a car was he driving?

Mr. Crafard. I think he had a 1934 or 1935 Chevy, I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. He was alone?

Mr. Crafard. He had his son with him.

Mr. Hubert. How old is his son?

Mr. Crafard. Nine or ten years old, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. How far did you go with him?

Mr. Crafard. He took me about 20 or 25 or 30 miles out. It wasn’t in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell him where you were heading?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told him I was going up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Did you discuss the route to go to Michigan?

Mr. Crafard. No; I knew the route I wanted.

Mr. Hubert. Had you looked it up?

Mr. Crafard. I had been across that route previously and knew.

Mr. Hubert. Hitchhiking?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long before?

Mr. Crafard. My wife and I left Dallas in 1963. We went up 77 to 66.

Mr. Hubert. But you weren’t hitchhiking then, were you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; we hitchhiked. She wouldn’t take the bus. I had money for her to take the bus with her and the kids, and she refused to do so.

Mr. Hubert. You told us earlier you had gone by bus.

Mr. Crafard. We went part way by bus.

Mr. Hubert. Which part did you go by bus?

Mr. Crafard. We went I think from Sacramento, took the bus out.

Mr. Hubert. You hitchhiked to Sacramento?

Mr. Crafard. We hitchhiked to Bakersfield, and picked up a motorcycle I had there and went on the motorcycle. I worked in California there for about 3 weeks.

Mr. Hubert. When did you go by bus?

Mr. Crafard. From Sacramento we took the bus on up to Washington.

Mr. Hubert. But you hitchhiked the previous time?

Mr. Crafard. To Bakersfield.

Mr. Hubert. With your wife?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And it was at her request? She wanted to hitchhike?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Rather than go by bus?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did she give any reason for that?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t want to leave me.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t want to what?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t want to leave, let me go by myself or something.

Mr. Hubert. But you said you offered to take her by bus.

Mr. Crafard. I offered to send her by bus and I’d hitchhike. That is what I figured on doing. I had the money to send her and the two boys, but I didn’t have money enough to take the bus myself.

Mr. Hubert. So the three of you hitchhiked—the four of you hitchhiked?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. There were two young babies and you and your wife?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any difficulty with that?

Mr. Crafard. None whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Now you have hitchhiked a lot, Larry—isn’t it true that it is much harder for a group of people to hitchhike than an individual?

Mr. Crafard. It depends on the group. You take a group like that and it is much easier for a family group like that to get a hitchhike than it is for a single person.

Mr. Hubert. Why?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, people seem to stop a lot faster for a family group like that than they would for a single person.

Mr. Hubert. But you had never hitchhiked north, had you?

Mr. Crafard. I figured to myself that we would take a route across from Dallas to Amarillo, that that was a pretty hard route to hitchhike under any circumstances, and figured that would be a lot easier, to go up 77 to hit 66, than it would be to go through to Amarillo.

Mr. Hubert. Did you consult a map at all in planning this trip?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. We picked it up at the gas station.

Mr. Hubert. You mean after you started out?

Mr. Crafard. No; I picked up a map right there.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. In Dallas, Tex., about a block from where my wife and I had been living.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about consulting a map with reference to going to see your sister when you left Ruby’s place.

Mr. Crafard. I knew that 77 would carry me right into 66, and 66 would carry me almost in to Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have to consult a map then?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Is that what you are telling us?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. All right. This boy picked you up then and carried you about 30 miles, you say?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. To what place?

Mr. Crafard. Out the other side of Carrollton a little ways.

Mr. Hubert. What State?

Mr. Crafard. Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Did he live there?

Mr. Crafard. He had a place there on the lake he was working on, he was going out there.

Mr. Hubert. What lake was that?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of the lake.

Mr. Hubert. But it was at Carrollton?

Mr. Crafard. Out the other side of Carrollton.

Mr. Hubert. How far beyond Carrollton?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. He went out and turned off on a country road.

Mr. Hubert. But he left you on the highway?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a country road that went east or west of the highway you were on?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he went to the west, I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you how far he had to go up the road?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. He was going to work, is that it?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. He was going to work?

Mr. Crafard. He was going to go up and do some work on his cabin.

Mr. Hubert. On his cabin on the lake?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did this man know Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Could he have met Ruby as you did out at the fair?

Mr. Crafard. He could have, yes.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know that he did?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to him about what you had been doing in the interim since you had last seen him?

Mr. Crafard. I told him that I had been working in Dallas at the Carousel.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention that you had been working for Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. I probably told him that Ruby ran the Carousel Club.

Mr. Hubert. Did he show any signs of recognizing he had seen Ruby out at the State Fair?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or that he knew him in any other way?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So far as you know then, the man didn’t know Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. He gave no manifestations of knowing him at all?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then. What happened next?

Mr. Crafard. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you wait for your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, barely about 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. The same spot or were you walking along?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed right there, walked about a hundred yards, maybe, up to an entryway where the cars came into the freeway.

Mr. Hubert. Then you got another ride?

Mr. Crafard. Got another ride, right there.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that with?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us something about him, what kind of a car it was, was it a man, a woman?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, man; I believe it was a ride with a man.

Mr. Hubert. How far did you go with this second driver?

Mr. Crafard. Wait a minute, it was a man and his wife that picked me up, carried me on up across the line, up to where he hit 66.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of a car was it, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they had an old Chevy, or an old Ford.

Mr. Hubert. What license car?

Mr. Crafard. It was a Texas car.

Mr. Hubert. And they carried you across the Texas line?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. They was going up to visit some relatives of his up there.

Mr. Hubert. Where? Is there a town at the Texas line that he dropped you off?

Mr. Crafard. No; it was on up about 50 or 60 miles across the other side of the line.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I thought from what you said that he had dropped you off at the line. In fact he had brought you about 60 miles beyond the line.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And into what State?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was Oklahoma.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you ride with him?

Mr. Crafard. We was together for about 5 or 6 hours.

Mr. Hubert. What time of day was it when he dropped you off?

Mr. Crafard. It was night when I got off there.

Mr. Hubert. What time had he picked you up?

Mr. Crafard. He picked me up about between 12:30 and a quarter to 1.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the town it was in?

Mr. Crafard. It was one of the big towns there, if I can think of it.

Mr. Hubert. Tulsa, Oklahoma City?

Mr. Crafard. Oklahoma City, I think it was.

Mr. Hubert. You rode in the back?

Mr. Crafard. I rode in the front seat with them. They were driving the car.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Crafard. I rode in the front seat with them.

Mr. Hubert. The three of you in the front?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, they had stuff in the back seat.

Mr. Hubert. And I understood you to say that they didn’t tell you their names at all?

Mr. Crafard. They give me their name, but I don’t remember it.

Mr. Hubert. But that they were going to visit some relatives in Oklahoma City?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. They was visiting his dad.

Mr. Hubert. His father. And that would have been around 6:30 or 7 at night?

Mr. Crafard. Right around there; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you have lunch?

Mr. Crafard. We stopped along the road at a cafe and had lunch.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stop on the road with the couple or with that friend?

Mr. Crafard. With the couple.

Mr. Hubert. You paid for your own lunch?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. That I think was your first expenditure on the trip?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. How much did that cost you?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe $1, a dollar and a half.

Mr. Hubert. Did you pay for their lunch?

Mr. Crafard. No; they paid for their own.

Mr. Hubert. All right, what did you do then?

Mr. Crafard. They let me out. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Did they leave you in downtown?

Mr. Crafard. No; they took me out to the edge of town to hitch a ride.

Mr. Hubert. Was it in the direction they were going?

Mr. Crafard. They dropped by there, by his dad’s place, and we sat there and we each had a cup of coffee and he took me out to the edge of town.

Mr. Hubert. So you met his dad too?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know what street that was on?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know the name of the people?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was there anybody else there besides the father?

Mr. Crafard. There was the father and one son that was at home.

Mr. Hubert. An adult son?

Mr. Crafard. He was in school I understand.

Mr. Hubert. How old a boy was he?

Mr. Crafard. He must have been about 16 or 17.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Crafard. We was there maybe a half an hour.

Mr. Hubert. And had coffee?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. No supper?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Then they took you from there to a spot on the highway on the other side of Oklahoma City—that is, on the north side—did they?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And dropped you off for your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. How long a drive was it to get you there?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, maybe about 4 or 5 miles.

Mr. Hubert. Miles you say?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. The man and his wife or just the man?

Mr. Crafard. Him and his wife, and I think his brother was with him, him and his wife and his brother.

Mr. Hubert. They dropped you off?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Any suggestions made that you might rest overnight there?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. And you did not?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get a hitch?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Right away?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, I stood there maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, I was standing under a street light.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get supper?

Mr. Crafard. I think I ate about 10 or 11 o’clock that night.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about your third hitch, how long it was, and so forth.

Mr. Crafard. I believe it carried me through most of the night, through the rest of the night I believe.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a man, woman?

Mr. Crafard. It was a man.

Mr. Hubert. Alone?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can figure.

Mr. Hubert. How old?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe in his late thirties.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of an automobile?

Mr. Crafard. I think he had a Buick.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the color?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the license, what State license?

Mr. Crafard. Oklahoma.

Mr. Hubert. Did you sit in the back or in the front?

Mr. Crafard. I sat in the front.

Mr. Hubert. And he carried you how far?

Mr. Crafard. We traveled most of the night. He was traveling back east.

Mr. Hubert. What time did he drop you off and where?

Mr. Crafard. I think he dropped me off just the other side of Missouri, in Missouri, just outside of St. Louis on 66.

Mr. Hubert. Which side of St. Louis?

Mr. Crafard. The south side.

Mr. Hubert. Which way was he going?

Mr. Crafard. That would be the west side of 66, of St. Louis, on 66. He was going into St. Louis.

Mr. Hubert. Where was he going after that?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, he was going back home.

Mr. Hubert. East?

Mr. Crafard. I was going up on 66. So far as I know he was stopping in St. Louis.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you said he was going east.

Mr. Crafard. From where he picked me up it was east, from where he picked me up.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean, was St. Louis his final destination?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That was it as far as he was concerned?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You say you had supper with him?

Mr. Crafard. We stopped at about 10 or 10:30 and had a bite to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. I think we stopped at a truck stop.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know what place?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How long after you had been riding with him did you stop?

Mr. Crafard. He picked me up, it must have been about 8 o’clock, or 8:30. We didn’t stop until about 10 or 10:30 for lunch, for a bite to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Two and a half hours?

Mr. Crafard. About that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you could have run a hundred miles or so?

Mr. Crafard. Easily.

Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t a city which you stopped at?

Mr. Crafard. No, it was just a little truck stop on the highway.

Mr. Hubert. On 66?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you fall asleep there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I did, yes.

Mr. Hubert. At what time, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Hubert. You are not sure then that you did fall asleep?

Mr. Crafard. I fell asleep, but I have no idea when it was.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how long you slept?

Mr. Crafard. I slept until about a half hour out of St. Louis, when I woke up.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to St. Louis?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was it daylight?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. How much had you spent for supper?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe a dollar; a dollar and a half.

Mr. Hubert. You were down to about $4 then?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mr. Crafard. Then I went on up. I got a ride there.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you have to wait until you got that next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. Maybe a half hour.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that one; what time it was, what kind of a car it was, the people in it.

Mr. Crafard. I imagine it was a man alone.

Mr. Hubert. Don’t imagine if you can help it. If you can’t remember, but try to recollect.

Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. How far did you go on that hitch?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he carried me clear up into Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. How far a run would that be?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. How much of a run would that be?

Mr. Crafard. That would be about a 7- or 8-hour ride, driving time, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. It was daylight then?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So you were on that hitch about 7 hours?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us whether it was a man or a woman?

Mr. Crafard. It was a man.

Mr. Hubert. Was he alone?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; most of your rides are with men alone.

Mr. Hubert. A little while ago you told us that you didn’t know whether it was a man or a woman or anything; you didn’t remember. Now you tell us it was a man.

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. And then you really do remember that it was a man?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, I daresay you can describe him, can’t you?

Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t describe him.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a young man or an old man?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he was in his late twenties.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what about the automobile?

Mr. Crafard. It seems to me like it was a red and white Chevy.

Mr. Hubert. You say you were with that person and in that automobile about 7 or 8 hours clean into Chicago. So you had a lot of opportunity to observe such things as who you were riding with.

Mr. Crafard. It has been quite a while back, too.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your memory that you now say he was a man in his late twenties; about 29?

Mr. Crafard. I would say in his late twenties.

Mr. Hubert. And that you don’t remember the type of car?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a Chevy.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember the State license plate?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do any stopping with him?

Mr. Crafard. I imagine we probably stopped a couple of times and gassed up; stopped and had a bite to eat.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the cost of that meal?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. It couldn’t have been more than about a dollar or a dollar and a half, at the most.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t pay for his meal or buy the gas?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Is it customary for hitchhikers to help out that way?

Mr. Crafard. Not very often. A man usually figures if he picks up a hitchhiker he figures on feeding him when he picks him up.

Mr. Hubert. What is that?

Mr. Crafard. A man who usually picks up somebody who is hitchhiking, they usually figure on feeding him.

Mr. Hubert. These people didn’t feed you?

Mr. Crafard. No. I try to have money in my pocket when I am hitchhiking.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. It was in the afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. What part of the afternoon.

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been early afternoon or getting toward dark? This time of the year it gets dark early; it did at that time.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I know.

Mr. Hubert. You say you had been with him about 7½ hours?

Mr. Crafard. About that.

Mr. Griffin. Let me get the time straight here a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. I thought we did have it straight.

Mr. Griffin. I am not straight.

Mr. Hubert. Let me see if I can’t get this straight. You rode through the night of the 23d?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Until the man left you off on the morning of the 24th on the west side of St. Louis on Highway 66; is that right?

Mr. Crafard. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. It was daylight then, and you had been with that man since about 8 o’clock the night before. Now, do you remember the time that he left you off? I think you stated that, didn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not exactly sure what the time was. Probably about 6 or 6:30; something like that.

Mr. Hubert. And then you rode with this other man from that time or about a half hour after that time, you said; so that is about 7 o’clock on the morning of the 24th, you rode with him about 7½ hours to Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. About that; yes.

Mr. Hubert. So then we can reconstruct that you must have reached Chicago or nearby Chicago at approximately half past 2 or 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. Crafard. It must have been in there somewhere.

Mr. Hubert. But you had stopped a little while for lunch.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And gas and so forth. What do you think is the fair time to state, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. How’s that?

Mr. Hubert. What do you think is the fair time to state that the man let you off in Chicago, given the time schedule that we have been able to work out to the extent that it helps your memory? You were there. What we are trying to do is to get the facts.

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 2:30, 3 o’clock, because I got through Chicago all right without any trouble.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t take you through Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. No; I bypassed most of Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. How did you do that?

Mr. Crafard. On a couple alternate routes.

Mr. Hubert. With hitchhikers?

Mr. Crafard. Different rides.

Mr. Hubert. Different rides?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How many?

Mr. Crafard. I got three or four different rides in Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. With these several rides around Chicago, bypassing it, how long did it take you to get around Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. Probably 2 or 3 hours.

Mr. Hubert. And these were all short ones?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall your next long one that really took you out of Chicago good?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I had a ride carried me over to Lansing.

Mr. Hubert. What distance is that from Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure of the exact distance.

Mr. Hubert. What time did that man pick you up, a woman, or whoever it was?

Mr. Crafard. It was a man. It must have been getting on toward night; it must have been.

Mr. Hubert. Toward 9, or night?

Mr. Crafard. Night. It must have been getting toward dark. It was getting dark pretty quick at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Was that man alone?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. And you had that ride clean on from Chicago to Lansing, Mich.?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you get to Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, it was night?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You weren’t at your destination yet, were you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stay in Lansing very long?

Mr. Crafard. No; not too long. I had to pretty well walk through quite a bit of Lansing; about an hour and a half walk, I guess it was.

Mr. Hubert. Well——

Mr. Griffin. You walked for an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard. About that.

Mr. Griffin. And you had two bags with you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t attempt to take any streetcars or buses?

Mr. Crafard. No city buses running when I got there.

Mr. Hubert. Would you judge that it was too late for the buses?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think it was.

Mr. Hubert. Was it after midnight?

Mr. Crafard. I think so; I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. That was a man, too, you think?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you have supper?

Mr. Crafard. I think we must have stopped; I think we stopped before we got to Lansing at a cafe to get supper.

Mr. Hubert. How far out of Lansing? If you don’t remember the miles, you might tell us about how long before he dropped you off.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know that, either.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been 3 or 4 hours. Probably about halfway between Chicago and Lansing.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think you were with him about 8 hours, then?

Mr. Crafard. I think so; I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. And he picked you up about dark?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; that is about a 400- or 500-mile ride.

Mr. Hubert. He picked you up about dark in Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. Just about toward dark.

Mr. Hubert. Five in the afternoon?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been 5 or 5:30.

Mr. Hubert. So it was something like midnight or shortly after when you got to Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you say about halfway between; that is when you had lunch or supper?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Or about 8 o’clock, do you think; 9 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 8—8 or 8:30—something like that.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first hear that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. Crafard. I had heard that Oswald had been shot Sunday evening.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been while I was getting through Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you hear that?

Mr. Crafard. Over the radio.

Mr. Hubert. What radio?

Mr. Crafard. The car radio.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know that Ruby had done it?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t find out who had done it until the following Monday, the following morning, Monday.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you find that out?

Mr. Crafard. I heard that over the radio.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, Larry, I suppose all of those cars you were in had radios, didn’t they?

Mr. Crafard. A lot of people don’t listen to the radio when they are riding like that. That was the first I’d heard of it—was Sunday evening, the first I heard Oswald had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. Sunday afternoon, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. You said it was while you were working your way through Chicago.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which took you two or three different cars; about 2 hours or so?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It was in one of those that you heard it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. There was no announcement that Ruby had done it?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so, because I didn’t know Ruby had done it until Monday morning.

Mr. Hubert. How did you find that out?

Mr. Crafard. I heard that over the news.

Mr. Hubert. In a car?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. During the night when you were driving from Chicago to Lansing, during the period from 5 in the afternoon to about midnight, didn’t you hear any radio announcements about any of this matter?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did that car have a radio in it?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t it playing?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you discuss the shooting?

Mr. Crafard. After I found out that Oswald had been shot we discussed it a little bit. We couldn’t understand. Both of us, as far as I can recall—the gentleman I was riding with and myself—we both said we would like to have seen him come to trial.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to the man that you were from Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it customary for hitchhikers to discuss what is a subject common to them, and that is where you have been and where you are going?

Mr. Crafard. Most of the time; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you, in fact, do that with this man; tell him you were from Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall whether I did or not.

Mr. Hubert. There is a difference between telling us that you don’t know and that you did not.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I say. I don’t recall whether I did or not.

Mr. Hubert. So, really, it is not that you are saying to us that you didn’t, but just that you don’t remember?

Mr. Crafard. That is right, I don’t recall whether I had been doing so. I more than likely did, because it is usually something that they say; it is a subject that most people would discuss—where their destination is and where they have come from.

Mr. Hubert. And I would think that if you did, if there was a possibility that you did, and you mentioned that you were from Dallas, that that would be another topic of conversation that might be interesting between two people riding along that way.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, that you had been in the city at which the President was killed.

Mr. Crafard. We would have discussed that.

Mr. Hubert. Doesn’t that refresh your memory on the subject?

Mr. Crafard. No; it doesn’t, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You still don’t remember?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Talking to that man about the fact that you were in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember having any indication that it was known who had shot Oswald?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to anyone about the fact that it was a nightclub owner?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Did the radio remain on after you heard this announcement?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember whether the radio stayed on, or whether he turned it off, or what.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, what you are telling us—it is your best memory now that you heard it over the radio that Oswald had been shot. That is as much as you did hear?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You did not hear who had done it or even the type of person who had done it, or what business the person was in who had done it, and that you never discussed it with anybody that you rode with in any one of those rides in Chicago and with the ride to Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I recall, I don’t recall—I imagine it was discussed, but I don’t recall discussing it. I don’t remember it.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: If you had discussed with anybody the killing of Oswald, the man accused of killing Oswald, you would remember that now, wouldn’t you, Larry?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I would, if I discussed anything about who had been accused of it, but, like I say, the first knowledge I had of who had shot Oswald was Monday morning.

Mr. Hubert. We will get to that in a moment Now, you had to go through Lansing, and you say it took but an hour and a half?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. What was your next hitch?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I can remember, I had a series of short rides, 20 or 25 miles to a ride.

Mr. Hubert. How far along did these series of short rides take you?

Mr. Crafard. I think I probably traveled about 60 or 70 miles before I got a good ride.

Mr. Hubert. That point, 60 or 75 miles beyond Lansing being the same point at which you got a good ride, was what place?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a large city, a small town?

Mr. Crafard. It was a small place as far as I can remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was that the last hitch you had?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I got one more after that. I think that one carried me to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. To Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How far is Mount Pleasant from Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o’clock on the morning of the 25th, is that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, it must have been about that.

Mr. Hubert. And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which you have referred?

Mr. Crafard. It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a half.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant you got before or after daylight?

Mr. Crafard. It was before daylight.

Mr. Hubert. It was still dark?

Mr. Crafard. I walked about—where this guy let me off at it was about 5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was light to get a ride.

Mr. Hubert. I didn’t quite understand that.

The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you off before light?

Mr. Crafard. I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.

Mr. Hubert. Was it light when you got a ride with him?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so. I have lost some time somewhere between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn’t get into Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let’s find out what time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you don’t know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I didn’t get into Clare until, I think it was 9 or 9:30 at night. I’ve lost at least 8 hours of time.

Mr. Hubert. Of course I don’t know that you have because I don’t know what geography or distance we are talking about.

Mr. Crafard. The distance isn’t that great. It only is 15 miles from Mount Pleasant to Clare.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s start this way. What time did you get to Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount Pleasant because it was 9:30, I’m almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when I got into Clare, because I went over to my cousin’s house in Clare. I remember that.

Mr. Hubert. It was before dark and before dawn when you picked up the driver somewhere approximately 6 miles on the other side of Lansing who took you into Mount Pleasant. Now, how long did you ride with him, and how far is it between the two?

Mr. Crafard. That is what I mean. I have lost some time earlier somewhere, because it is not that long a ride. I could have made it from Lansing to Clare and back again during the day.

Mr. Hubert. Larry, we want to get it straight.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I am trying to do, myself.

Mr. Hubert. If you want to figure out any place where you have made any mistake about the time——

Mr. Crafard. That is what I was trying to do.

Mr. Hubert. We can start all over again. It seemed to fit as I went along, but I wasn’t aware of the distances.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask him this question: I understand you said that you walked through Lansing.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long did it take you to walk through Lansing?

Mr. Crafard. About an hour, hour and a half, something like that.

Mr. Griffin. And at that time the cars were not running, the transit, the public transportation was not running, or were you out of money at that time?

Mr. Crafard. I still had money I have to eat on.

Mr. Griffin. Lansing is how far from Clare?

Mr. Crafard. Lansing isn’t over, I don’t believe it is over 225 miles from Clare to Lansing.

Mr. Hubert. It may be that you are making a mistake, Larry. Let’s see if we can’t refresh your memory from the time you got that last long hitch that took you to Mount Pleasant because you remember getting to Mount Pleasant at night, about 8:30.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that, you say, is a run of what—about 5 hours, 6 hours?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe it would take that long.

Mr. Hubert. So if you got there at about 8:30 at night, then either you didn’t get any hitches for a long period of time, or else something else happened.

Mr. Crafard. I’m just trying to——

Mr. Hubert. Because you told us, and if it is not so, why we want you to correct it. Everybody can make mistakes.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I was trying to do.

Mr. Hubert. You said that you picked up this ride at a point 60 miles outside of Lansing and into Mount Pleasant prior to dawn on the 25th. Now, maybe that is wrong. Maybe you got that ride late in the day. Let’s put it this way. Was that a continuous ride straight on?

Mr. Crafard. It carried me straight on through to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stop at all?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. It isn’t that long a run across there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stop for lunch or anything of that sort?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. And it is about a 6-hour run?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe it is that long a run across there.

Mr. Hubert. If you got there at 8:30 at night, and if you are firm about that——

Mr. Crafard. I’m positive it was 8:30 or 9 o’clock when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about Mount Pleasant. You had no difficulty getting from Mount Pleasant to Clare, did you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say an hour would suffice for that?

Mr. Crafard. Plenty, plenty of time.

Mr. Hubert. You got there between 8:30 and 9, that is into Clare, right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s back off from there, then. Did you spend any time in Mount Pleasant before leaving for Clare?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So that you must have left Clare about 7:30.

Mr. Crafard. I got into Clare about——

Mr. Hubert. I mean left Mount Pleasant about 7:30, right?

Mr. Crafard. No; I left Clare—Mount Pleasant about 8 or 8:30. It was about 9 o’clock when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. Did you start on your way to Clare immediately after this man left you off at Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And had you run directly through without stopping from the time the man picked you up and dropped you off in Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. That is right, 15 miles.

Mr. Hubert. 15 miles? No; I am talking about the run from——

Mr. Crafard. From Mount Pleasant to Clare.

Mr. Hubert. No; I’m talking about the run to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Griffin. From Lansing to Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. A point outside of Lansing to Mount Pleasant. That is about a 4-hour run, you say.

Mr. Crafard. At the most, from Lansing to Clare.

Mr. Hubert. That last long hitch was about a 4-hour hitch?

Mr. Crafard. No; the last long ride was maybe 2½ hours.

Mr. Hubert. 2½ hours?

Mr. Crafard. Or 3 hours.

Mr. Hubert. And that was the man who brought you into Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. Mount Pleasant.

Mr. Hubert. Therefore, if you got to Mount Pleasant about 8, he must have picked you up about 5 in the afternoon.

Mr. Crafard. It must have been.

Mr. Hubert. Then there is some mistake in timing of about 12 hours.

Mr. Crafard. That is what I was saying. I’ve lost some time there.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps it needs a little clarifying. Let me touch on another point.

Mr. Crafard. It seems to me I got mixed up on my routes going out of Oklahoma City.

Mr. Hubert. Think about it a moment and let me touch upon something else before we go back to it. I think you said that you heard that Ruby had done this on the morning of the 25th.

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, could you tell us how you heard it? Did you hear it by newspaper, radio, television, or what?

Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure whether it was over the radio or whether I saw it in the newspaper.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that must have made a terrific impact on you, because, after all, that was your boss.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So I suggest that if you will just put your mind to it, you can tell us pretty well how it was and where it was. Was it in a restaurant or an automobile?

Mr. Crafard. I think I saw it in the newspaper, saw something about Oswald and then the assassination or something like that, and then I read the rest of it.

Mr. Hubert. You bought a newspaper?

Mr. Crafard. I think so. I must have.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you keep it?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so because I didn’t have one with me when I got into Clare.

Mr. Hubert. And it was morning?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it must have been. It was about 8 in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. 8 in the morning?

Mr. Crafard. About that, somewhere.

Mr. Hubert. Were you with anybody, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I was walking through a small town.

Mr. Hubert. What was your reaction to it?

Mr. Crafard. It was pretty hard to believe.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell anybody about it?

Mr. Crafard. I think something was said to somebody I was riding with about it or something. Somebody picked me up shortly after I saw it, somebody I was riding with, and we had stopped in a cafe or something. I am pretty sure I discussed it with the person I was riding with.

Mr. Hubert. You are pretty sure now?

Mr. Crafard. The fact that I stated to him that it seemed almost impossible to believe. It seemed to be awfully hard to believe it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell that person that you knew him?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell that person that you had started to hitchhike up?

Mr. Crafard. I told him I had worked for him, that I had left the day after Kennedy was shot, coming up from Texas.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Were you with that person very long? Was he the one, for example, who took you into Mount Pleasant?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Now, let me see. I think you have refreshed your memory to some extent. You tell us now you are quite sure it was a newspaper.

Mr. Crafard. I am pretty sure it was.

Mr. Hubert. That gave you the first information.

Mr. Crafard. I still think that—I’m almost positive I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City somewhere, or just out of Oklahoma City.

Mr. Hubert. We will try to straighten out that route business a little later. You are quite clear that you arrived at Clare, Mich., about 9 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Was that your destination from the start?

Mr. Crafard. My main destination was about Kalkaska, Mich.

Mr. Hubert. How far is that from Clare?

Mr. Crafard. It is about 3 hours running.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you stop on the night of the 25th, about 9 o’clock, at Clare?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed at my cousin’s at Clare.

Mr. Hubert. What is your cousin’s name?

Mr. Crafard. Clifford Roberts.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the address?

Mr. Crafard. 307 East Seventh Street.

Mr. Hubert. Were they expecting you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How long since you last saw them?

Mr. Crafard. At the time it had been, I think it had been, several years since I saw him at that time.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know they were there?

Mr. Crafard. They wrote to my folks while I was living in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Was it——

Mr. Crafard. Wait a minute; excuse me. I saw him before I went to work, before I went to work with the carnival. My sister told me where they was living at there.

Mr. Hubert. Did you intend to stop with him that night or just to visit?

Mr. Crafard. Well, I figured when I got in there at that time of night, I knew what the road to Kalkaska was—it was pretty rough overnight, so I figured I would stop. I would be perfectly welcome.

Mr. Hubert. Were you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did they recognize you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to them about the Ruby matter?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. We talked quite a bit of it that night.

Mr. Hubert. What was the nature of the conversation?

Mr. Crafard. About the fact that I told them I had worked for him. It was kind of a surprise to them to know somebody who worked for him; asked me what kind of a guy he was, and everything.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell them?

Mr. Crafard. What I could, the best I could, what kind of a guy he was.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell them under what circumstances—did you tell them the circumstances under which you had left?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; told them how I had left.

Mr. Hubert. Did they express any surprise about that?

Mr. Crafard. No; because they knew me.

Mr. Hubert. They didn’t seem to be concerned about it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Who was there?

Mr. Crafard. There was my cousin and his wife.

Mr. Hubert. Just the two?

Mr. Crafard. And their children.

Mr. Hubert. How old are their children?

Mr. Crafard. The oldest one, I think, is 7 or 8, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. No friends came over?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe there was anybody over that night.

Mr. Hubert. You did stay there that night?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go to bed?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about an hour and a half after I got there, 2 hours.

Mr. Hubert. And you slept through the night?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you remain there the next day?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I went on up to Harrison.

Mr. Hubert. Was that in the direction of Kalkaska?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; along the best traveled road.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you leave Clare?

Mr. Crafard. Probably about 9:30 or 10 o’clock.

Mr. Hubert. Did your cousin Roberts know your destination?

Mr. Crafard. He knew where I was going to go on to my sister’s.

Mr. Hubert. He knew you were going to hitchhike?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Had he been in touch with your sister, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe he had been in touch with her for quite a while.

Mr. Hubert. I mean, did he know she was there?

Mr. Crafard. She might have told her that he was living up there—I think mother told my sister where he lived, or something.

Mr. Hubert. What is the distance between Clare and your sister’s place in Kalkaska, is it?

Mr. Crafard. Kalkaska, about 100, 120 miles.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a rural community?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. No cities along that route?

Mr. Crafard. Well, there is one about 60 miles from it.

Mr. Hubert. What is the name of it?

Mr. Crafard. Cadillac. It is about 60 miles from Traverse City.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have enough money at that time to get a bus ride in?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You had about $4 or $5 left, didn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I had a couple of dollars left.

Mr. Hubert. $2?

Mr. Crafard. $2 or $3.

Mr. Hubert. Did you attempt to borrow any money from your cousin to take the trip?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he offer to give you any?

Mr. Crafard. No; he was in no position to. He had a large family.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make inquiry as to how much it would cost?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. I think you said that you knew that that was a bad road for hitchhikers.

Mr. Crafard. At night, I said.

Mr. Hubert. It is all right in the day?

Mr. Crafard. Fairly decent road; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make it that day into Kalkaska?

Mr. Crafard. I went up to Harrison that day and spent a couple of hours with an aunt I have in Harrison, and then went to Kalkaska.

Mr. Hubert. What is her name?

Mr. Crafard. Jean Eaton.

Mr. Hubert. Is she married?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is her married name?

Mr. Crafard. Eaton.

Mr. Hubert. I see. Do you know her husband’s first name?

Mr. Crafard. Ed.

Mr. Hubert. Is he living with her so that it is Mrs. Ed Eaton?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where does she live?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know the name of the street she lives on. They get their mail through a post office box.

Mr. Hubert. You spent a couple of hours there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you hitchhiked there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How far is Harrison from Kalkaska?

Mr. Crafard. About 90, 95 miles, I think.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get to Kalkaska that night?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall whether I went that night or whether I stayed with my aunt and uncle that night.

Mr. Hubert. We are talking now about Tuesday, the 26th of November.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember whether you got there Tuesday or Wednesday?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember sleeping at your aunt’s house?

Mr. Crafard. I have spent on several occasions, I have spent the night with my aunt and uncle.

Mr. Hubert. I mean on that occasion.

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember for sure whether I stayed with my aunt.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you said for a couple of hours there, and I was wondering whether you had slept there that night. You said you visited a couple of hours.

Mr. Crafard. I went up there, I got up there before the kids come home for lunch.

Mr. Hubert. Did you stay 2 hours or more?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I spent the rest of the day there.

Mr. Hubert. And slept there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so. Then I went up to my sister’s the next day.

Mr. Hubert. Did anybody—did your aunt and uncle have a car?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; he was working.

Mr. Hubert. You weren’t able to get a ride?

Mr. Crafard. No; not with them.

Mr. Hubert. You had to hitchhike?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t even at that point consider bus travel?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. So then you got to your sister’s house on Wednesday, then?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. About what time of day?

Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 2:30 or 3 o’clock in the afternoon, I imagine.

Mr. Hubert. She didn’t know you were coming?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That is in Kalkaska?

Mr. Crafard. She lives about, I think about 20 miles out of Kalkaska, or she did at that time.

Mr. Hubert. So that when you got to Kalkaska you still had to go another 20 miles?

Mr. Crafard. About that, yes.

Mr. Hubert. That was a rural road?

Mr. Crafard. It was about—most of it was a well-traveled road, one of the main roads through the State.

Mr. Hubert. From Kalkaska to where she lived?

Mr. Crafard. It was then about two miles off the road.

Mr. Hubert. She lives off the main highway?

Mr. Crafard. She did at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Did she live in a log cabin or something of that kind?

Mr. Crafard. She was living in a farm house.

Mr. Hubert. Farm house. About 20 miles from Kalkaska?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; a little place called Mancelona.

Mr. Hubert. Mancelona?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It is in County Antrim; isn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell her about your experience?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was her reaction?

Mr. Crafard. Well, about the same as everybody else.

Mr. Hubert. Did she know about Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure whether she did or not. They didn’t have their radio or TV either, so I don’t know. I think they had heard about it, but I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, she didn’t know you had been working for him?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was it at that place that the FBI man interviewed you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What day was that?

Mr. Crafard. That is where he picked me up. He picked me up there on Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. Hubert. What time did he pick you up? Did he arrest you?

Mr. Crafard. No. They came out the house about 7 o’clock Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. Hubert. 7 o’clock at night?

Mr. Crafard. In the morning, and he had me go for an interview.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go?

Mr. Crafard. It was about 10 miles from there. It is a little town where the police station was. I don’t remember the name of the town.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how they located you?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how they located you?

Mr. Crafard. Well, they went to my aunt’s.

Mr. Hubert. How did they——

Mr. Crafard. That is one thing I know.

Mr. Hubert. How did they come to go to your aunt’s?

Mr. Crafard. When I was in Dallas, I had got a letter from my cousin, and I had left the envelope laying when I left there. They found her address.

Mr. Hubert. You mean Roberts?

Mr. Crafard. No; my aunt’s niece, Mickey—my aunt’s daughter.

Mr. Hubert. What is her name?

Mr. Crafard. Gail Eaton.

Mr. Hubert. She is the one who lives in Harrison?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. She had written you or you had written her?

Mr. Crafard. I had wrote her, and then she had wrote me.

Mr. Hubert. The letter you wrote to her I don’t think you mailed.

Mr. Crafard. I mailed a couple of them. One or two anyway.

Mr. Hubert. I think you left one behind, didn’t you?

Mr. Crafard. I might have; I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what day they went to your aunt’s house?

Mr. Crafard. From what I understood, it was the night before they talked to me.

Mr. Hubert. And she told them, I suppose, that you were going up to your sister’s house?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And then the next morning they interviewed you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did that interview take?

Mr. Crafard. About, I believe, 4½ to 5 hours I talked to the men there. That is when they took me back out to the house, and then he asked me to go into Kalkaska the following morning and meet him so he could take some pictures with a Polaroid camera.

Mr. Hubert. And he did so?

Mr. Crafard. He took some pictures, and I talked to him between an hour and a half and 2 hours again that morning.

Mr. Hubert. Did he go over with you the details of your trip up by hitchhiking?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe he developed that too closely.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI since?

Mr. Crafard. I talked to an agent last Saturday at my home in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. Hubert. Other than that you have not talked——

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. I think this man who had interviewed you, this FBI man who interviewed you in Kalkaska, had asked you to keep in touch with them?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How was that to be done?

Mr. Crafard. Dropping him a card or line letting him know where I was at to get in touch with me.

Mr. Hubert. That is if you moved?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with your sister?

Mr. Crafard. I was there a couple of days. Then I went back down to Clare. I think I spent the night there, and then I was going to go to Florida, and I was hitchhiking, and this guy picked me up, and he said it was pretty nasty out, and he said it was too cold and nasty out to hitchhike. He said, “I have got a room over here. I won’t be using it tonight, and you’ll be welcome to use it, and then I will bring you back on the road in the morning.” I went out there with him, and he was working with an oil field drilling crew, and one of the men had quit, and they needed a man, so I went to work that night Then I worked up until, with them up until, about the 17th or 18th of February.

Mr. Griffin. Where was that?

Mr. Crafard. The main office was out of Mount Pleasant, Michigan. We were moving over the southern portion of the State of Michigan.

Mr. Hubert. Did you let the FBI know where you were?

Mr. Crafard. I wrote to them and told them they could contact me through the North American Drilling office in Mount Pleasant, Michigan. When I left there in February I went to Dallas, Tex. I was at the trial, and then I went out to——

Mr. Hubert. How did you go to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I hitchhiked.

Mr. Hubert. Why did you go to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. It was on a personal matter.

Mr. Griffin. I didn’t get that answer.

Mr. Hubert. It was on a personal matter.

Mr. Crafard. I was trying to locate my wife and children.

Mr. Hubert. That was in February?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see——

Mr. Hubert. I think you said you worked for them until—we may be able to clarify that. I just want to hit the highlights right now.

Mr. Crafard. I believe I left in March.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask this question. What is the name of the drilling company?

Mr. Crafard. North American Drilling Company. I spent a week or 2 weeks around Clare there before I left. I believe it was in March, the latter part of April.

Mr. Griffin. You are sure you got that job by accident?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it was purely accident.

Mr. Hubert. You stayed with them until February, as I understand it?

Mr. Crafard. I worked with them until about the 18th of February.

Mr. Hubert. Then you quit, or what happened?

Mr. Crafard. I had bought a rattletrap of a car, and we had moved locations, and I had car trouble. I was staying about 40 miles from where we was working, and I had car trouble and I missed out, I missed about five days of work, and in the meantime they got another man.

Mr. Griffin. This drilling company was drilling for oil?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when did you get the subpena to appear at Ruby’s trial?

Mr. Crafard. I got that in Dallas, Tex., at the courthouse, at the county courthouse.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, your trip to Dallas was not for the purpose of attending the trial?

Mr. Crafard. No; not—mostly no.

Mr. Hubert. You say not mostly.

Mr. Crafard. That wasn’t my main reason for going.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been contacted by anybody to appear at the trial prior to the time you left the North American Drilling Company?

Mr. Crafard. Eva Grant’s sister had wrote to my cousin, Mrs. Eaton, wanting information as to my whereabouts so they could locate me.

Mr. Hubert. And she gave it to them?

Mr. Crafard. No; she refused to.

Mr. Hubert. But your cousin let you know?

Mr. Crafard. They told me about it.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do?

Mr. Crafard. Then when I arrived in Dallas, I went up to find out what it was all about. I didn’t know for sure what it was about.

Mr. Hubert. Who did you go to see?

Mr. Crafard. I went to the courthouse, and then I talked—the first one I saw was Andy. Then I talked to the lawyer, Mr. Phil Burleson, and he subpenaed me then.

Mr. Hubert. About what date was that, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. March 10, I believe it was; yes; it was on my birthday.

Mr. Hubert. Did it take you from the 18th of February or so to get to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed around Clare for, I think, a couple—a week or two. It was, let’s see, it must have been about the 7th of March because I was only 3 days going from Clare to Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Your purpose in going to Dallas was to try to find your wife?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did you succeed in that, by the way?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You haven’t yet?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. When you saw Burleson then, he told you he wanted you to remain?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he place you under that subpena?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did they use you at the trial?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us roughly what the substance of your testimony was at the trial?

Mr. Crafard. To the effect that I had took the pictures of the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign and to the effect that he had only planned on shipping one of his dogs to California.

Mr. Hubert. That is all that was brought out?

Mr. Crafard. That was about the main gist of my testimony.

Mr. Hubert. You were a witness for the defense, I take it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you subjected to any cross-examination?

Mr. Crafard. I think there were two or three questions put to me on cross-examination.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get to talk to Ruby then?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Eva?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And Andy Armstrong?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. Andy.

Mr. Crafard. I saw him before—I don’t believe I talked to him after I appeared on the witness stand.

Mr. Hubert. He was the first one you contacted?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; he was the first one I saw.

Mr. Hubert. In Dallas. Did you go over to the club?

Mr. Crafard. No. I went to the courthouse.

Mr. Hubert. And you saw him at the courthouse?

Mr. Crafard. Andy saw me; I didn’t see him. Andy saw me and he recognized me.

Mr. Hubert. I see. Who else did you talk to while you were in Dallas on this last occasion?

Mr. Crafard. I talked to the Grants, to the Rubys—the brothers and sisters.

Mr. Hubert. What about?

Mr. Crafard. I talked to them after the trial was over, after I had appeared on the witness stand.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t talk to them before?

Mr. Crafard. No. I think I had saw Miss Grant one time, and at the time when I did Burleson was standing right beside me when I spoke to her, let her know I was there.

Mr. Hubert. Did she know where you could be located?

Mr. Crafard. She didn’t know, but Burleson did. While I was in Dallas, you mean?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Crafard. Burleson knew.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Crafard. Burleson knew.

Mr. Hubert. She didn’t call you to locate you?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you in Dallas before you testified?

Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I landed in Dallas on Sunday. I was in Dallas for about 4 days all together before I testified.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you in Dallas before you contacted Burleson or met Burleson?

Mr. Crafard. I arrived in Dallas Sunday, and I contacted Burleson Tuesday.

Mr. Hubert. And you testified on Thursday?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you left on what day?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was, I think I spent—let’s see, I left Dallas the following Wednesday, I believe it was. I went to California where I stopped and visited a very good friend of the family’s. I spent—I arrived there Thursday night about 2 o’clock in the morning. He had just got home from work, and then I spent Thursday night, Friday, Saturday night there, and then I left there Sunday. They were making a trip up north, and they took me up north quite a ways with them, and then I hitchhiked up home.

Mr. Griffin. When you were in Dallas, Tex., where did you stay?

Mr. Crafard. I stayed at the mission most of the time.

Mr. Hubert. What mission is that?

Mr. Crafard. City mission.

Mr. Hubert. Where is it located?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it is on Ervay Street.

Mr. Hubert. You mean it is a religious organization?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Runs sort of a hostel or hotel for——

Mr. Crafard. Place for guys on the road to stay.

Mr. Hubert. How did you manage for money on your trip from up north to Dallas, and Dallas on down west, and then again north to Washington?

Mr. Crafard. I had some money when I left Dallas, when I left Clare.

Mr. Hubert. How much did you have.

Mr. Crafard. $40, $50, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did you work at anytime after you left Clare?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, no; I didn’t work after I left Clare.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t earn any money during that period?

Mr. Crafard. No. I haven’t worked since about the 18th of February, I think it is, at a job.

Mr. Griffin. Who else did you see in Dallas beside the lawyers, Andy Armstrong, and the Ruby family?

Mr. Crafard. I saw the people around the mission, and I say, I did work 1 day in Dallas, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Where, and how much did you make?

Mr. Crafard. I made about $7; I think I got about $7 out of it. It was out of the labor pool.

Mr. Hubert. How much money did you have when you got to Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. I was just about broke when I got into Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. How did you manage to live?

Mr. Crafard. That is why I said I stayed at the mission.

Mt. Hubert. It still required money for food.

Mr. Crafard. It is a place where they feed you and they give you a place to sleep.

Mr. Hubert. Did anybody in Dallas give you any money?

Mr. Crafard. After I had appeared, after I had appeared on the witness stand, Eva Grant gave me, her and her brother all together, I think gave me $8.

Mr. Hubert. $8?

Mr. Crafard. That is right; all total.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. Crafard. Money to eat on.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask them or they asked you?

Mr. Crafard. They asked me how I was living, and I told them, and I told them—they give me money to eat on, and I spent Monday, Tuesday—Sunday, I think Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night that I slept in the Carousel Club. They gave me the key to the club so I could stay there.

Mr. Hubert. Who did; Eva?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was the club in operation at that time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. That was after you testified?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Had it been changed from the time you had seen it before?

Mr. Crafard. There had been no redecoration or anything. I don’t think they called it the Carousel. There was a Club de Copa or something, they had run it a little while, and then they revoked her liquor license.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. But the interior of the club, did you notice any changes?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was the safe still there?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was Andy; was he still there?

Mr. Crafard. No; Andy was working some place else; I have no idea where.

Mr. Hubert. When you left, did you return the key to her?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Ralph Paul or George Senator while you were there?

Mr. Crafard. I saw George Senator at the courthouse, that was all.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t see Ralph Paul or talk to him?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember seeing him. I know I never talked to him, and I don’t remember seeing him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to any of the strippers or the waitresses who used to be there?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Think hard now. Was there anybody else that you talked to in Dallas outside of the people you saw in connection with the Ruby trial?

Mr. Crafard. These people that I saw around the mission there I talked to is all, and the police department. I asked them to put a tracer on my wife.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Mr. Case?

Air. Crafard. Case?

Mr. Griffin. Bob Case.

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. You just arrived in Dallas from Oregon, I think when you were served with these papers to come here?

Mr. Crafard. No; I had been home for a little while.

Mr. Hubert. How long?

Mr. Crafard. I had arrived there, I had been there, let’s see, I got in Monday—it would have been 2 weeks this last Monday that I had been home. I spent my time looking for a job since I have been home.

Mr. Hubert. You haven’t found any yet?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever been in trouble in your life in the sense of being charged with any offense?

Mr. Crafard. No; sir, I have got two times that I have been picked up, picked up on a vag charge.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Crafard. Vagrancy charge; Findlay, Ohio, and drunk in a public street in Dallas, Oreg. That is the only two times I have ever been charged.

Mr. Hubert. Were you actually prosecuted on those two cases?

Mr. Crafard. I paid a fine on the drunk on public street, and the other one I was just—I spent 72 hours in the jail and was let go.

Mr. Hubert. The police have not reported to you on the tracer on your wife?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. When was your wife last known to you to be in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t know she was in Dallas. I had an idea she was around the Dallas area somewhere.

Mr. Griffin. When you left Dallas on November 23, did you have an idea that your wife was around the area at that time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. How did you come to believe that she was around the area?

Mr. Crafard. Well, I had wrote to my folks asking them for information, if she had been in touch with them, if they knew where she was, and I had a cousin who had been back out west and visited my folks and they told me, they was telling me, they had gotten a letter from this woman in Cuba, Mo., where my wife had been, so when I left Michigan, I went to Cuba, Mo., and I talked to the woman there and, as far as she knew, my wife had went back to the Dallas area, the last she knew of her.

Mr. Griffin. How long had that been?

Mr. Crafard. It had been, this was Christmastime.

Mr. Griffin. That is when the woman in Cuba, Mo., had seen her?

Mr. Crafard. That was the last time.

Mr. Griffin. Were the children still with the woman in Cuba, Mo.

Mr. Crafard. No; the children was with my wife; she had the children.

Mr. Griffin. But you didn’t contact her brother?

Mr. Crafard. No; I tried to, but I couldn’t find out. Didn’t know where he was living or had no way of getting in touch with him.

Mr. Griffin. Had he moved from the last time?

Mr. Crafard. The last I knew where he was at he was working on a ranch, and I never could get ahold of the ranch. Nobody had ever heard of it out around Carrollton, and nobody had ever heard of the place. I knew he was there because I had been out there with him when he got the job, but I didn’t have any transportation, so I had no way of going out there.

Mr. Griffin. Well, you thought she was in the Dallas area. Where specifically in the Dallas area did you have in mind?

Mr. Crafard. There is a little place about 30 miles out of Dallas called, I think, Greenfield, or something like that, that I was told she was around. She had got a letter from her in that area in February.

Mr. Griffin. Who had?

Mr. Crafard. This daughter of this woman in Missouri.

Mr. Griffin. And did the woman, did she, show you the letter?

Mr. Crafard. She couldn’t find the letter, she couldn’t locate it. She put it up in some of her stuff and couldn’t locate the letter at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Did you check out around Greenville for her?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t get out to Greenville.

Mr. Griffin. Did you contact the Greenville police?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell the Dallas tracer people?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That the last you had heard she was in Greenville?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t know until you arrived at Cuba, Mo., that your wife might be in Dallas, did you?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. So when you left Michigan on your way to Dallas you really didn’t have any idea that your wife would be in Dallas. You expected she might be in Cuba, Mo.

Mr. Crafard. When I left Michigan my destination was Cuba, Mo., as far as I knew. As far as I knew, my wife was in Cuba, Mo., or around there some place close.

Mr. Griffin. When you left Cuba, Mo., the only information you had about your wife was that she was somewhere near, might be somewhere in the vicinity of Greenville, Tex.?

Mr. Crafard. Around the Dallas area is what—she had got this letter from Greenville, and she was in the vicinity, as far as they knew, in the Greenville area of Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. The letter was not written by your wife?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it had been written by my wife to this daughter of this woman in Cuba, Mo.

Mr. Griffin. What were you told the letter said?

Mr. Crafard. Just, she just said, she didn’t say anything about what the letter said. She just said it had been wrote from Greenville, and that this girl had wrote back to my wife, and the letter had come back, nobody at that address, no forwarding address.

Mr. Griffin. What direction is Greenville from Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. That is out sort of the northeast of Dallas, about 35 miles.

Mr. Griffin. What route is that on?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. I don’t think it is on a main route. It is, I think, on a smaller highway.

Mr. Griffin. Had you ever heard of this place Greenville, Tex., before?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; I knew approximately where it was.

Mr. Griffin. How had you happened to hear of it?

Mr. Crafard. When my wife and I were in Dallas, I had worked for this outfit that built these portable buildings and they built some over in that area.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know of any friends your wife had in Greenville?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. This letter that the woman in Cuba, Mo., received, did it give any indication of how your wife was supporting herself or what her connection was with the party that she was staying with?

Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, it didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. The woman in Cuba, how did she happen to be friendly with your wife?

Mr. Crafard. My wife was on the road hitchhiking when she picked her up with the boys. Her and her husband picked my wife up with the boys.

Mr. Griffin. When was that?

Mr. Crafard. That was about 6 months—it would have been in the middle of the summer last year.

Mr. Griffin. I mean, did your wife keep in contact with this woman from time to time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. She left, the wife, the children with this woman for a while, and she was getting a child-support check for her oldest son, my stepson, and she turned the check over to the woman in Missouri.

Mr. Griffin. How did the woman come to know about your mother in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. Crafard. I guess my wife said something about it.

Mr. Griffin. Well, had the woman in Cuba, Mo., written your mother to tell your mother that your wife had left, or something, or what was the occasion for that?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she wrote trying to find out what kind of a person my wife was more than anything. I believe that was her main reason for writing my mother. From the information I got from her, when my wife would come back, my wife would be gone 2 to 3 weeks, she would come back at least once a month with the check, to sign the check and turn it over to the woman, and she said when my wife did come back she apparently did appear to have quite a bit of money, and always had new clothes and real good clothes, but she said she appeared—she did not appear to have a job of any kind, because of the fact she would come back maybe on a weekend or maybe it would be in the middle of the week.

Mr. Griffin. What is the name of this woman in Cuba, Mo.?

Mr. Crafard. I can’t even remember right now. I have got it wrote down in that little book, but I can’t even remember right now.

Mr. Griffin. When was it that the lady in Cuba last saw your wife?

Mr. Crafard. It was Christmas Day.

Mr. Hubert. Cuba, Mo.?

Mr. Griffin. She saw her Christmastime?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. My wife come back and got the children on Christmas Day.

Mr. Griffin. She also got a letter from her about that time?

Mr. Crafard. The letter was received after that, I understand.

Mr. Griffin. When the woman in Cuba, Mo., saw your wife at Christmastime, did your wife say where she was going?

Mr. Crafard. As far as the woman knew, she was going to Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know a girl by the name of Gloria that was with Ruby on November 20?

Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t give you any particular dates, but I know a girl Gloria that he took out, that he went out with a couple of times.

Mr. Hubert. Is she the same girl as you have identified in this exhibit which has been marked——

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. That is Gloria McDonald?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. The last name is McDonald.

Mr. Crafard. I didn’t know what her last name was, I couldn’t say, but her first name was Gloria.

Mr. Griffin. Where did she live?

Mr. Crafard. It was either Oak Lawn, the Oak Lawn area, or the Oak Ridge area, I am not sure which.

Mr. Hubert. Did she live alone or with someone?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I knew, she was living alone.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask when you say something like that, do you mean you don’t know or you have some reason to believe she was living alone?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, I will put it that way.

Mr. Hubert. You really don’t know?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Hubert. Because the way you put it, you see, you infer she is living alone, and if you really have no knowledge about it then you don’t know.

Mr. Crafard. Right.

Mr. Hubert. She was the girl that you had breakfast with one morning at the Lucas B&B; isn’t that correct?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When, how long after you began to work for Jack Ruby, did you become aware that Gloria was somebody whom he saw from time to time?

Mr. Crafard. I believe Gloria come to the club in answer to an ad, I am not sure. But I believe that is where, how, I met her, when she come to the club in answer to one of the ads we put in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. Along those lines now, is it your impression that Ruby didn’t know this girl Gloria prior to the time she answered an ad?

Mr. Crafard. That is my impression, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when she came in?

Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. But your thought is that Ruby did not know her prior to the time that you went to work for Ruby?

Mr. Crafard. That is what I understood.

Mr. Hubert. When we say Gloria we are talking about this girl with the striped dress you have identified in Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E; right?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. How many waitresses did Jack employ at any one time?

Mr. Crafard. Counting the cocktail girls, there were about six or seven girls.

Mr. Griffin. Now, of these six or seven girls did any of them—were any of them employed at the Carousel Club at the entire time you were there?

Mr. Crafard. Most of them.

Mr. Griffin. How many girls left his employ during the time you were there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was two or three left his employ, not counting Jada, the stripper.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember which girls left his employ?

Mr. Crafard. One I was with quite often there, we had meals together.

Mr. Griffin. What was her name, again?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember her name. I believe there was one other one there. I would like to change one thing. The name you mentioned, the name of that girl, I never did remember the name, the name Gloria. She worked as a cocktail girl for 2 or 3 nights, and she never made anything at all, couldn’t make enough money to buy cigarettes with, and she left.

Mr. Hubert. The girl in Exhibit 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E was Gloria, wasn’t it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And she was there only 3 days?

Mr. Crafard. She worked for him for 2 or 3 nights, and then she left. She couldn’t even make enough money to buy cigarettes.

Mr. Hubert. But then she continued to see him on a social basis?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was she working, do you know?

Mr. Crafard. How is that?

Mr. Hubert. After she left him where did she go to work?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether she went to work or you just don’t know anything about her?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any indication that Jack was supporting her in any way?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Griffin. When Jack placed these ads for waitresses, was it that he needed help?

Mr. Crafard. He had to run a continuous ad for girls. I think mostly he was wanting to get girls to start them as strippers.

Mr. Griffin. And he would sort of start them out as waitresses first, is that it, if they showed any prospects——

Mr. Crafard. He did with a couple of them, yes.

Mr. Griffin. How about the waitresses, did he have some requirements for the waitresses as to their looks?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. They were all fairly nice-looking girls, but I wouldn’t say they were real beauties or anything.

Mr. Griffin. Did he provide them with uniforms?

Mr. Crafard. About a week or 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated, he bought uniforms for the girls. But prior to that they hadn’t wore uniforms.

Mr. Griffin. They had no uniforms?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. But they did have a common style of dress?

Mr. Crafard. Most of them wore slacks and a blouse or a sweater.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark this “Washington, D.C., Exhibit 5201, April 8, 1964, Deposition, C. L. Crafard,” and I will sign my name to it.

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5201 for identification.)

Mr. Griffin. Now, Larry, I am going to show you what I have marked as Exhibit 5201. You will notice the picture of a girl there, a brunette, scantily clad. Is she wearing the uniform that you referred to that Jack bought?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the girl in that photograph?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see anybody around the Carousel in an outfit like that?

Mr. Crafard. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Does that appear to be a picture of the inside of the Carousel Club?

Mr. Crafard. Not as I know it, no. We didn’t have all this back bar.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph, 5201?

Mr. Crafard. This man looks familiar, but——

Mr. Griffin. The man at the table looks familiar to you?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Can you probe your memory some and try to tell us why he looks familiar?

Mr. Crafard. He looks like somebody I saw in the Carousel Club.

Mr. Griffin. Would he be one of the men from Los Angeles that you referred to?

Mr. Crafard. It could be. I wouldn’t swear to it.

Mr. Griffin. How often do you think that you saw that man around the Carousel Club?

Mr. Crafard. It wasn’t but a couple of times. It couldn’t have been.

Mr. Griffin. Is that a picture of any club that you recognize in Dallas?

Mr. Crafard. None that I have ever been in. I was never in any of the other clubs except to the Carousel and the Vegas.

Mr. Griffin. Would you be sure that that is not a picture of any part of the Vegas?

Mr. Crafard. No, it is not a picture of the Vegas. They didn’t have a back bar there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you see the man who appears to be a bartender in that picture?

Mr. Crafard. I should know him because it looks like—he looks like an older fellow who was around the club quite often with Jack, but I can’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that the witness was referring to the picture identified as Exhibit 5201.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Ryan, who was friendly with Jack Ruby, and who also went by the name of Roy William Pike?

Mr. Crafard. William Ryan is familiar, but this other man, it wouldn’t be Mickey?

Mr. Griffin. Mickey Ryan. Is that Mickey Ryan that worked the bar?

Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t say. The picture is really—if I would see the man and the picture together I might be able to——

Mr. Hubert. When you say the man in the picture, which man are you talking about?

Mr. Crafard. The man who appears to be a bartender.

Mr. Griffin. Let me see if I understand. Do you make some association in your mind between the picture of the bartender here and the fellow you remember as Mickey Ryan?

Mr. Crafard. Yes. There is quite a similarity.

Mr. Griffin. But you are not——

Mr. Crafard. I am not positive.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of a place in Dallas called the Gun Club?

Mr. Crafard. I have heard mention of a place by that name, but I have never been there.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you a bit more about the man seated at the table in the foreground of the picture identified as Exhibit 5201. Did I understand you to say he bore a resemblance to someone you had seen before?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that someone was who?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t——

Mr. Hubert. It was suggested to you that it might have been one of the people you identified as, earlier in this deposition as, having come from California and as having come in to see Ruby on several occasions, and to sit down and chat for a little while and then he would go off with them. Do you remember that testimony?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, is that man seated at the table as described by me a moment ago possibly one of those men?

Mr. Crafard. It could possibly be, yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is it about him that refreshes your memory so that you are able to say that he could possibly be that man from California?

Mr. Crafard. Mostly his face; his facial features mostly.

Mr. Griffin. Larry, did Jack Ruby know your full name?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. How did he know you?

Mr. Crafard. As Larry.

Mr. Griffin. Did he know your last name at all?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so. I don’t recall telling him. I did—I told him my last name when that letter came in from my cousin in Michigan, and he gave it to me.

Mr. Griffin. How did Eva Grant know where to look for you?

Mr. Crafard. I am not sure except for the fact, like I say, I had left an envelope with my cousin’s address at the Carousel.

Mr. Hubert. Andy knew your last name, didn’t he?

Mr. Crafard. I believe so.

Mr. Griffin. How did Andy come to learn your last name?

Mr. Crafard. I believe on this same occasion with the letter.

Mr. Griffin. I asked you about the show “How Hollywood Makes Movies.” What kind of a show was that?

Mr. Crafard. That was, it showed a few of the different tricks and stunts that was used in moviemaking process, such as shooting a mirror without breaking the mirror, or shooting a glass off the bar counter, and how they broke a chair over a man’s head and how a chair or table broke when a man was knocked into it, such as that.

Mr. Griffin. How many actors did they have in this show?

Mr. Crafard. There was, I believe, six Hollywood personnel all together.

Mr. Griffin. How long did the show last in terms of each performance?

Mr. Crafard. The show was approximately about 45 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. How much did they charge for admission?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they was charging 75 cents, if I remember.

Mr. Griffin. Who conceived of the show?

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, from what I knew of it, it was Craven and Miles.

Mr. Griffin. What do you know about Craven, what was his background?

Mr. Crafard. All I know he come from Hollywood, was supposed to be some producer from Hollywood.

Mr. Griffin. And how about the Miles fellow?

Mr. Crafard. Deke Miles, as far as I know, was a director from Hollywood, a Hollywood director.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to decide to go to Dallas, Tex., in the fall of 1963?

Mr. Crafard. Because I knew there was one of the biggest fairs in the country held in Dallas, Tex., and I had some friends working over at Dallas, Tex., and I figured this would be as good a place to get a job with a carnival as anywhere.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to go to Dallas the first time you moved there the year before?

Mr. Crafard. I was going there to have a reconciliation with my wife.

Mr. Griffin. And you stayed about 3 months; is that it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; about that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you live with her at that time?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you live?

Mr. Crafard. Letot Trailer Park on Lombardy Lane.

Mr. Griffin. Did one of you own a house trailer?

Mr. Crafard. We rented a house trailer.

Mr. Griffin. Do you drive an automobile?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. When Ruby bought the lumber from the dance-band show that closed, what was he going to use that lumber for?

Mr. Crafard. Remodeling on the inside of his Carousel Club.

Mr. Griffin. Did he use it for that purpose?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. What did he do with the lumber?

Mr. Crafard. He stored it.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he store it?

Mr. Crafard. Downstairs below the Carousel Club.

Mr. Griffin. Did he make any effort to remodel?

Mr. Crafard. He was doing some remodelling while I was there, building a cloakroom. That was about all that was being done, building a cloakroom, while I was there.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack Ruby ever away from his Carousel all day?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember a day that I didn’t see him at least once during the day.

Mr. Griffin. You do?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t, I say. I don’t remember a day.

Mr. Griffin. But ordinarily Jack would come about 11:30 in the morning——

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Stay just a short while——

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. And would be gone all day until sometime in the late evening?

Mr. Crafard. Usually; sometimes he would come back in the middle of the afternoon for a little while, or maybe he wouldn’t come back until after the club opened at 7:30.

Mr. Griffin. What did Jack actually have to do to manage the Carousel?

Mr. Crafard. That I couldn’t really say.

Mr. Griffin. Did it appear he had very much to do?

Mr. Crafard. As far as the management of the club, to my knowledge, it shouldn’t have took him more than 3 hours a day at the most, that is, including all the bookwork he would have to do.

Mr. Griffin. Did he do the bookwork?

Mr. Crafard. He kept a set of books, but he had a bookkeeper to keep his books, an accountant.

Mr. Griffin. I mean—you mean he personally kept the books or somebody else made the entries?

Mr. Crafard. Andrew made most of the entries.

Mr. Griffin. Now, during the 6 weeks or 2 months that you were there, how many different strippers did he have?

Mr. Crafard. It was mostly the same girls. He fired one and hired another one.

Mr. Griffin. Who was the one that he fired?

Mr. Crafard. It was Jada.

Mr. Griffin. And who did he hire in her place?

Mr. Crafard. Little Lynn.

Mr. Griffin. How long after he fired Jada did Little Lynn come on?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was 2 or 3 days between them.

Mr. Griffin. Could there have been more than that?

Mr. Crafard. It might have been a week, I don’t believe so—I don’t believe it was much more than that.

Mr. Griffin. Were you present during the incident that resulted in the firing of Jada?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there were several different incidents that built up to that event.

Mr. Griffin. What were they, as you recall?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know most of them, but the one instance I believe, Jack shut the lights out on her as she went too far with her disrobing.

Mr. Griffin. And then did they have a fight of some sort afterwards?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Were you present?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I was in the club, but I don’t know—I didn’t know what went on even.

Mr. Griffin. How long had you known Little Lynn before she was hired as a stripper?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I met her one day and she was hired the next evening, something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Had Jack known her before?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. How about her husband, Bruce Carlin, did you meet him?

Mr. Crafard. I met him at the same time I met Little Lynn.

Mr. Griffin. How often did Bruce use to come to the club?

Mr. Crafard. When Little Lynn went to work for the club at first he was there almost every night—he was there every night.

Mr. Griffin. How did he get along with Jack?

Mr. Crafard. I never seen any difficulty between them.

Mr. Griffin. How would you describe Bruce Carlin?

Mr. Crafard. He seemed like a pretty likable young fellow to me.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with him?

Mr. Crafard. Slightly; not very much.

Mr. Griffin. What time would he generally come and what time would he leave?

Mr. Crafard. He would usually, when he come in, he would be there when Little Lynn was on the stage, and he would leave, and she would go back in time for her to come back on the stage, and he would come back in again.

Mr. Griffin. Did he and Little Lynn go out some place together?

Mr. Crafard. I believe they went out a couple of times between her acts. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Did Little Lynn remain around the club while Bruce was out?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; most of the time.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say Little Lynn worked for Jack?

Mr. Crafard. Oh, man; I believe it was 2 or 3 weeks. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. So he had the same group of strippers except that Little Lynn replaced Jada?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. He had three different M.C.’s?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And Billy DeMar was one of them?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. And the M.C. is the same person as the comedian?

Mr. Crafard. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. How about the band? Did he have the same band all the way through?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, yes.

Mr. Griffin. So you would say that while you were there there wasn’t any other turnover in personnel?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. That you knew of.

I think you mentioned on two nights you ran the Vegas Club all by yourself.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When were those two nights?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the dates. It was during the week, week nights. The one night I was the only one at the club, I didn’t even have a band, all we had was the jukebox.

Mr. Griffin. How about the bartender?

Mr. Crafard. I was doing the bartending.

Mr. Griffin. And taking the tickets also?

Mr. Crafard. We didn’t have any cover charge that night, just a jukebox and beer. The next night we had the band, and I had a waitress.

Mr. Griffin. How long was that before the assassination of the President?

Mr. Crafard. I believe that was the week before, but I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. What was the reason that Jack didn’t have anybody to run the Vegas Club?

Mr. Crafard. The club wasn’t making any money. During the week it didn’t make hardly any money, and that was the slowest night of the week for the club, and his sister was sick one night, so he had me go over and run the Vegas Club the first night, and the next night his sister was sick again, and I only had the band and a waitress with me at night.

Mr. Griffin. Was his sister in the hospital or anything while you were employed there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe she was. She was in the hospital—I think she was in the hospital, but when, I’m not sure. I’m not sure whether she was or not.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see her after the two nights you worked in the Vegas Club?

Mr. Crafard. I think I saw her over at the Vegas Club two or three nights later, but I’m not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Did you meet Pauline Hall?

Mr. Crafard. Who?

Mr. Griffin. Did you meet a woman named Pauline Hall?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How many times did you see her, would you say?

Mr. Crafard. All together I believe I saw her about four different times.

Mr. Griffin. Would you describe her physically?

Mr. Crafard. Fairly nice looking woman, I would say maybe in her mid-thirties—a little older, but a nice build, and what I saw of her, and when I talked to her, she had a fairly nice personality.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any woman at the Vegas Club who was employed there who was noticeably heavy, who was fat?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall of seeing one.

Mr. Griffin. How about the Carousel, did he have anybody employed, any woman employed at the Carousel Club who was noticeably fat?

Mr. Crafard. There was a colored woman by the name of Alice who more or less took care of the coffee and the pizzas, was real heavy.

Mr. Griffin. When you saw—do you know if Eva Grant worked at the Vegas any nights after the two nights that you worked there?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know anything about the man who runs the Colony Club, Abe Weinstein?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I—I don’t. I believe I met the man on one occasion.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you meet him?

Mr. Crafard. I believe I met him at the Carousel Club. He was the one who got—Jack hired Little Lynn through him. I believe it was that.

Mr. Griffin. Were Jack and Abe Weinstein friendly?

Mr. Crafard. No; I wouldn’t say so.

Mr. Griffin. How did Jack happen to hire Little Lynn through Abe?

Mr. Crafard. He needed a girl, and Abe had one that he didn’t need, and he knew Jack needed girls through the union setup, so he told Jack about her, brought her over and introduced her.

Mr. Griffin. Had Little Lynn been a stripper at Abe Weinstein’s place?

Mr. Crafard. I understand she was an amateur.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk with Jack about the amateur nights that Weinstein had?

Mr. Crafard. There was some—I wouldn’t say actually I discussed it with him. I should say he told me about it.

Mr. Griffin. What did Jack tell you?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the fact that he—the unions had sent out an order for the clubs to stop the so-called amateur night, and Ruby had done so, but the other clubs in town hadn’t, and they had failed to comply with the union order, and nothing had happened about it.

Mr. Griffin. When did Jack talk with you about that?

Mr. Crafard. When I showed up and went to work for him.

Mr. Griffin. And, to your knowledge, did Jack do—what was Jack doing about it?

Mr. Crafard. He was doing his best to get the union to force them to stop. He had stopped.

Mr. Griffin. What was he doing that you know of?

Mr. Crafard. He was writing to some of the bigger, some of the higher officials in the union, and friends of his that he knew that had position or something.

Mr. Griffin. Did you you ever make any telephone calls for him or write any letters or mail any letters in connection with that?

Mr. Crafard. I might have mailed some letters, I don’t recall it.

Mr. Griffin. How about telephone calls?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall it.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever drive Jack’s car?

Mr. Crafard. No. At the time I was working for Ruby all I had, the only license I had, was a restricted motorcycle operator’s license.

Mr. Griffin. Other than that at that time that you—you had driven with Jack, hadn’t you, in his car, a number of times?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And did Jack keep a lot of things in his car?

Mr. Crafard. His trunk was always full of stuff.

Mr. Griffin. It was? How about the inside of the car?

Mr. Crafard. Not so much in the back.

Mr. Griffin. What sort of things did he keep in the trunk?

Mr. Crafard. Pictures of girls, these twist boards he was pushing, and cards for advertisements, and cards with the picture——

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to see these things? These things in the trunk of the car.

Mr. Crafard. I straightened the trunk of his car up several times at his request.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep any keys in the car?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he had some in a box in the back.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of keys were they?

Mr. Crafard. From what I could tell more or less house keys, keys for doors.

Mr. Griffin. Were they loose or in a key chain?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was a bunch of them on a keyring.

Mr. Griffin. You say he kept them in a box of some sort?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of a box did he keep them in?

Mr. Crafard. Just a cardboard box he had in the back of his car.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep anything else in that cardboard box?

Mr. Crafard. There was vitamin pills he was taking, and some of his diet stuff he kept in that box. He always had a bunch of soap in the car, bar soap.

Mr. Griffin. Did he travel out of town or something that would cause him to need that stuff?

Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. Why would he have kept those things in the trunk of the car?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep clothes in the car?

Mr. Crafard. He sometimes would have clothes in the car. Maybe he would put clothes in the car that he would take to the cleaner and they would be in there 2 or 3 days before he would take them in the cleaners.

Mr. Griffin. Where would they be in the trunk?

Mr. Crafard. Right in the trunk of the car.

Mr. Griffin. How about in the glove compartment of the car, did you ever have any occasion to go into the glove compartment?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep the trunk of his car locked?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And the times that you went into the trunk of the car, how did you get into the trunk?

Mr. Crafard. With the key.

Mr. Griffin. Where would you get the key?

Mr. Crafard. He would give it to me.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep this key loose in his pocket or did he have it on a key chain?

Mr. Crafard. He had it on a key chain.

Mr. Griffin. What else did he keep on that key chain?

Mr. Crafard. The keys for the car.

Mr. Griffin. Anything else?

Mr. Crafard. I believe he had his apartment house key and the key to both clubs.

Mr. Griffin. Was this actually a chain or a ring or what?

Mr. Crafard. A keyring.

Mr. Griffin. To your knowledge did he keep—did he have any separate set of car keys that he kept on a separate ring or on a holder of any kind?

Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. You say at one time you went down to his car and got a gun out of the car?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he keep the gun?

Mr. Crafard. He kept that locked in the trunk.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see any political literature of any sort in Jack’s car or in the apartment or in the Carousel Club or any place else?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall seeing.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see any radio scripts of any sort that Jack had?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have access to his office?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How did he maintain his desk?

Mr. Crafard. It was pretty much of a mess most of the time.

Mr. Griffin. Was this a desk that had drawers in it?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And how about the drawers, did he keep things in the drawers?

Mr. Crafard. Yes, they was always full of stuff.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to go through any of these drawers?

Mr. Crafard. I went through, completely through the desk on different occasions.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall seeing any kinds of political literature of any sort in there, and by political I don’t mean just partisan, but, oh, anything that might have to do with any kind of issue or political philosophy?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall it, of seeing any.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever recall seeing anything from an organization called Lifeline or that was a piece of literature that was put out by an organization called Lifeline, or denominated Lifeline?

Mr. Crafard. I believe there was a Lifeline book or magazine around once or twice. I never paid no attention to it; saw the book and that was all.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack talk about any public events?

Mr. Crafard. No. About all we would discuss would be the club.

Mr. Griffin. What sort of person was Ruby as far as a person who talked about what he was doing?

Mr. Crafard. He didn’t talk too much about things, things he was doing, other than the club itself. He talked about what had to be done about the club, but other than that he didn’t talk too much.

Mr. Griffin. He didn’t tell you what he was doing outside the club?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. So as I understand it, atypical for Ruby, he appeared at the club before noon, wouldn’t come back until late evening, he would spend 8 or 10 or what would presumably be waking hours away from the club each day.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever talk about what he was doing during that period of time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear anything, or do you have any idea of what he was doing during that period of time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever attempt to talk to him about what he was doing?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. About that time? Did you ever hear anybody else try to talk to him about it?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Jack, or see Jack, or talk with him often enough so that you were able to form an opinion as to what Jack thought of his own sexual abilities?

Mr. Crafard. No; I would have no opinion on that.

Mr. Griffin. Did he ever talk to you about other than the incidents that you mentioned earlier about his sexual conquests of his girl friends or something like that?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Griffin, how about his efforts to keep in shape physically, keep himself physically fit, and what not?

Mr. Crafard. I never saw any talk toward that effect. The only thing I knew for sure was he was dieting and trying to lose weight.

Mr. Griffin. This is because he told you?

Mr. Crafard. I saw him take these diet pills.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have some sort of a schedule that he would take this on?

Mr. Crafard. He took it every morning.

Mr. Griffin. About what time did he take them?

Mr. Crafard. Well, the way I understood, about the first thing he got up he would take this.

Mr. Griffin. Would he take it at the club or at home?

Mr. Crafard. At home; or sometimes at the club.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see him take it?

Mr. Crafard. He was trying to take it—I guess he figured about noontime he would take his medicine, this diet stuff, instead of eating.

Mr. Griffin. What did this come in?

Mr. Crafard. It was in powder form, you use it in tea or coffee. It prevents you from getting hungry.

Mr. Griffin. On the 22d when Jack came back after the President had been shot, the first time, did he make any telephone calls to any of his employees, to anybody, to people, to tell them not to come in?

Mr. Crafard. No; he had Andrew make calls.

Mr. Griffin. Did Andy make all the calls?

Mr. Crafard. So far as I know; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack—how about the newspapers, was anything done about notifying the newspapers that the club was not going to be open?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know as it was Jack who done it—there was—he done so outside the club.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody come to the club during the afternoon of the 22d?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember of anybody coming to the club.

Mr. Griffin. Did any of the strippers show up that day?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, I don’t recall any coming down.

Mr. Griffin. How long did Andy stay at the club?

Mr. Crafard. He was there until about 15 or 20 minutes after Jack left.

Mr. Griffin. The first time or the second?

Mr. Crafard. The first time.

Mr. Griffin. Which means that he would have left sometime before 4 o’clock?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When you and Senator and Jack went out to take the picture of the Earl Warren sign, do you recall anything being in the car at that time?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any newspapers in the car?

Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t remember any.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you sit, in the front or back?

Mr. Crafard. I sat in the back seat.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack know how to use the Polaroid camera?

Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. It doesn’t take anything to run that Polaroid camera.

Mr. Crafard. No; but I don’t believe he had ever——

Mr. Griffin. Was it his camera?

Mr. Crafard. It was his camera. I don’t believe he had ever took any patience to learn how to reload it. They can be quite complicated to reload if you don’t know how to do it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have to reload after every shot?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. How much film did you have on there?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was four pictures.

Mr. Griffin. That you took?

Mr. Crafard. There was three pictures on it that I took. We thought there was four, and there was only three of them.

Mr. Griffin. And you didn’t have to reload then, did you?

Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t reload.

Mr. Griffin. What did you all talk about when you drove out there?

Mr. Crafard. They were talking about this Earl Warren sign and a hate ad that Ruby had saw in the paper.

Mr. Griffin. What was Jack saying about it?

Mr. Crafard. It was something about the similarity of the numbers and the addresses of the two.

Mr. Griffin. What was Senator saying about it?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall what Senator said.

Mr. Griffin. Did you get some idea of what the purpose was, why Jack was concerned about this?

Mr. Crafard. No; I was completely in the dark about it. Something, I believe, was said about the sign of “Impeach Earl Warren,” business being done by maybe the Birch Society or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. What did Jack have to say about the Birch Society?

Mr. Crafard. I believe it was either Jack or Senator said something about this sign, the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign being—having something to do with the “Birchites,” or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. What were they going to do with this?

Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack say anything to you about what he had been doing the rest of the day?

Mr. Crafard. No; that was early in the morning when we took the pictures.

Mr. Griffin. And you hadn’t seen him for probably 12 hours?

Mr. Crafard. Something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Before that, and in the 12 hours that he had been gone, did he indicate or he or Senator indicate at all what had gone on?

Mr. Crafard. Something had been said about Jack not having gotten any sleep.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack indicate that he was doing this for anybody else, taking these pictures?

Mr. Crafard. No; he didn’t give any indication about that fact.

Mr. Griffin. Did Senator indicate what he had been doing that day?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. What was your attitude after you went out there on this picture-taking enterprise?

Mr. Crafard. Well, it was just something he wanted done. It meant no more to me than taking a picture at the club, actually, except I was kind of curious as to what the devil it was all about.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ask him?

Mr. Crafard. Something, they were talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign. I made some suggestion about a box number, “Write for free information”; I made some suggestion about maybe writing for free information and finding out what I had come back, as I can recall.

Mr. Griffin. What happened?

Mr. Crafard. Nothing more was said about that.

Mr. Griffin. Was the box number written down or anything?

Mr. Crafard. The box number was on the photograph, that is all.

Mr. Griffin. Was there a name on this, in addition to the box number, was there a name to anybody that you should write to?

Mr. Crafard. I think it was just “Impeach Earl Warren Committee” or something like that. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t remember?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead. You were going to say something else.

Mr. Crafard. I was going to say either that or it was an organization in Massachusetts somewhere or something that you had to write to. I know the sign had been printed in, I believe, Massachusetts.

Mr. Griffin. What conversation did you have about this sign after you drove back?

Mr. Crafard. After going back in, we had coffee, and they said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see if they could find out who had the box or something, and they let me off at the Carousel. That was the last I saw of them.

Mr. Griffin. You mentioned in connection with that telephone call that you had had, the 3-hour telephone conversation with that girl——

Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. You thought there were some people in the background.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And you indicated you thought they might have been teenagers or something.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was there something particular about the voices and so forth that made you think it was teenagers?

Mr. Crafard. Well, some of the giggles I heard were kind of silly, like some silly giggle that some of the young teenage girls would do or make.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody telling this girl to get off the phone?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. You also said something about the conversation was almost like you had known this girl.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; it was. It was just the way we talked—I mean.

Mr. Griffin. Did she sound like she knew things about you?

Mr. Crafard. No; but it was like people that has known each other for a little while trying to get to know each other when talking, talking about their hobbies and things they like and things they didn’t like, and such as that. It wasn’t like two people who had just started talking over the telephone.

Mr. Griffin. Was the voice one that you had ever recognized at all?

Mr. Crafard. No; the voice meant nothing to me.

Mr. Griffin. I think you mentioned that Little Lynn called on Friday night sometime.

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When was it that you think she called?

Mr. Crafard. I believe—I said I believe it was 9 or 9:30, I believed it was.

Mr. Griffin. What was it that she said when she called?

Mr. Crafard. She wanted to get ahold of Jack, it was urgent or something to that effect.

Mr. Griffin. And did she indicate she knew the club had been closed?

Mr. Crafard. Yes; she knew the club had been closed.

Mr. Griffin. And at that time did she know how long it was going to be closed?

Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. You mean that you just don’t know or that you have the impression she didn’t know?

Mr. Crafard. I had the impression she didn’t know any more about it than I knew.

Mr. Griffin. What was your impression?

Mr. Crafard. That we would be closed Friday and Saturday.

Mr. Griffin. Friday and Saturday. So her—when was this decision to close Friday and Saturday, when was that made?

Mr. Crafard. Friday afternoon.

Mr. Griffin. And that was made before Andy began to make the telephone calls?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. So that anybody who had been called by Andy would have known that the club was going to be closed Friday and Saturday night?

Mr. Crafard. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember closing the club on Thursday night?

Mr. Crafard. On Thursday night?

Mr. Griffin. Thursday night is the night before the assassination.

Mr. Crafard. Yes; we closed at the regular time, the usual time, 2:30 or 3 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. What was done with the money that night?

Mr. Crafard. I believe Jack had it with him.

Mr. Griffin. Well, Friday morning was there any money in the safe when you woke up, Friday morning?

Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. There was no money taken into the Carousel Club after Thursday night, was there?

Mr. Crafard. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you indicated before that Jack had the practice of depositing his money in the bank.

Mr. Crafard. As far as I know; yes. That is what I figure he was doing anyway, was depositing.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any information he was doing that?

Mr. Crafard. No; I did not know definite, but that was what I figured he was doing, keep it with him, and then every 2 or 3 days he said he would go to the bank or something.

Mr. Griffin. This North American Drilling Co., do you know anything about the people who manage that?

Mr. Crafard. No; all I know about it is originally it was the old McClure Drilling Co. and the old Union Drilling Co. combined together to form the North American Drilling Co.

Mr. Griffin. Were those Michigan companies or were they people——

Mr. Crafard. Michigan companies.

Mr. Griffin. We will continue tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.