TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.
The general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.
Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.
When was this subpena served upon you?
Mr. Crafard. Last Saturday.
Mr. Hubert. I think that would have been the 4th.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. The 4th of April.
Would you rise and be sworn, please?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Crafard. I do.
Mr. Hubert. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. Crafard. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. Hubert. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?
Mr. Crafard. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. How old are you?
Mr. Crafard. 23.
Mr. Hubert. When precisely were you born?
Mr. Crafard. March 10, 1941.
Mr. Hubert. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Crafard. At the present time I am unemployed.
Mr. Hubert. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.
Mr. Crafard. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.
Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?
Mr. Crafard. No objection whatsoever.
Mr. Hubert. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?
Mr. Crafard. Unless it is of some use to you.
Mr. Hubert. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don’t want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don’t want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.
Mr. Crafard. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.
Mr. Hubert. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?
Mr. Crafard. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.
Mr. Hubert. Are they still living?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Are they living together?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Where do they live?
Mr. Crafard. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. Have you any brothers or sisters?
Mr. Crafard. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. Hubert. What is his name?
Mr. Crafard. Edward D. Crafard.
Mr. Hubert. Is he married?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Does he have children?
Mr. Crafard. Two.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t have any other address for him than that which you have given us?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know what organization in the Army?
Mr. Crafard. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft.
I have three sisters.
Mr. Hubert. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?
Mr. Crafard. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.
Mr. Hubert. To whom?
Mr. Crafard. [Deleted].
Mr. Hubert. Where does she live?
Mr. Crafard. She is residing in Clare, Mich.
Mr. Hubert. Are they living together?
Mr. Crafard. He is in the “pen” right now.
Mr. Hubert. Penitentiary?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Which one?
Mr. Crafard. New Ionia State Penitentiary.
Mr. Hubert. What State is that in?
Mr. Crafard. Michigan.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.
Mr. Hubert. How long has he been in the penitentiary?
Mr. Crafard. About 7 months, I believe, now.
Mr. Hubert. What term is he serving?
Mr. Crafard. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.
Mr. Hubert. All right. Go on to the next sister.
Mr. Crafard. Norma Lee Crafard.
Mr. Hubert. Who is she married to?
Mr. Crafard. Owen Neal.
Mr. Hubert. N-e-a-l?
Mr. Crafard. N-e-a-l.
Mr. Hubert. Where do they live?
Mr. Crafard. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. Do they live together?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do they have children?
Mr. Crafard. They have two children.
Mr. Hubert. All right. What is——
Mr. Crafard. Alice LaLaine Crafard.
Mr. Hubert. What is her husband’s name?
Mr. Crafard. She is not married. She lives with my parents.
Mr. Hubert. How old is she?
Mr. Crafard. She is 17.
Mr. Hubert. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?
Mr. Crafard. I have one brother that died.
Mr. Hubert. What was his name?
Mr. Crafard. Gary Harold Crafard.
Mr. Hubert. How old was he when he died?
Mr. Crafard. Nine years old.
Mr. Hubert. When did he die?
Mr. Crafard. 1954, I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?
Mr. Crafard. Farwell, Mich.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there after your birth?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.
Mr. Hubert. After those 4 years where did you go?
Mr. Crafard. Went to California.
Mr. Hubert. What part?
Mr. Crafard. San Joaquin Valley.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. Approximately 6 years.
Mr. Hubert. That is until you were about 10 years old?
Mr. Crafard. Ten years old.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go to school there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How much schooling did you finish there?
Mr. Crafard. First four grades.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?
Mr. Crafard. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.
Mr. Hubert. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?
Mr. Crafard. We moved back to Michigan.
Mr. Hubert. What place, in Michigan?
Mr. Crafard. Clare.
Mr. Hubert. C-l-a-i-r-e?
Mr. Crafard. C-l-a-r-e.
Mr. Hubert. That is when you were 10 years old?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember it?
Mr. Crafard. I can remember going back; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?
Mr. Crafard. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go to school there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.
Mr. Hubert. Then what happened?
Mr. Crafard. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.
Mr. Hubert. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?
Mr. Crafard. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.
Mr. Hubert. Same place as before?
Mr. Crafard. No; we moved to a little place called Plainview where I attended school for a year, Stratmore High School and from there we went to Oregon. I dropped out of school and enlisted in the U.S. Army, September 18, 1958.
Mr. Hubert. Now, do I understand you to say then that you had 3 years of high school education?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was that—were those satisfactory years?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I mean you have credit for those?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You lack 1 year to graduate?
Mr. Crafard. I lack about 6 months of finishing high school.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you enlist?
Mr. Crafard. I enlisted in Salem, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. And what assignments were you given?
Mr. Crafard. I enlisted in the antiaircraft.
Mr. Hubert. That is U.S. Army?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you get basic training?
Mr. Crafard. Fort Ord.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. I was in Fort Ord for 2 months and then I went to Presidio, San Francisco, where I was stationed at an air defense school for a period of 2 months and then I was assigned to D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.
From there I went to Germany in April of 1959. I was transferred to Germany to Deisley Kersne, and I was stationed with the D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion there. I stayed there until November of 1959 then I was transferred back to the United States where I was discharged November 10, 1959.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you serve altogether?
Mr. Crafard. Thirteen months.
Mr. Hubert. Is that the usual tour?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.
Mr. Hubert. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.
Mr. Hubert. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr. Crafard. General, under honorable conditions.
Mr. Hubert. You have a discharge reading general, under honorable conditions and you are now taking from your pocket a document which is a photostatic copy, I take it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; DD214.
Mr. Hubert. Of Defense Department Form 14.
Mr. Crafard. 214.
Mr. Hubert. 214. May I have a look at it?
Do you have any objection, Mr. Crafard if we have a photostatic copy of this document that you have just shown me?
Mr. Crafard. No objection.
Mr. Hubert. So that it can be part of the record and we will give you back the original.
Mr. Crafard. No objection.
Mr. Hubert. Now, what was the place of your discharge from the Army in the United States?
Mr. Crafard. Fort Sheridan, Ill.
Mr. Hubert. When you were discharged, where did you go?
Mr. Crafard. I went to Kalkaska, Mich., where I resided with my brother-in-law and my sister.
Mr. Hubert. Which one was that?
Mr. Crafard. At the present time it is Mrs. Ingersol. At that time it was Mrs. Richard Clair Tenniswood.
Mr. Hubert. She had been married twice then?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Well, then we had better get that information about her. Who was her first husband?
Mr. Crafard. Richard Clair Tenniswood. She had two children, two girls by him.
Mr. Hubert. How was that marriage dissolved?
Mr. Crafard. By divorce.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know the grounds?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure of the grounds, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did she divorce him or did he divorce her?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she divorced him. I am not positive about that.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I knew him very well.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he is?
Mr. Crafard. He lives at Port Huron, Mich., just out of Port Huron, Mich.
Mr. Hubert. What business is he in?
Mr. Crafard. Farmer.
Mr. Hubert. Has he remarried?
Mr. Crafard. He plans to remarry this summer.
Mr. Hubert. Have you seen him recently?
Mr. Crafard. Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago. A little over that.
Mr. Hubert. About how long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. I stayed there for about, let’s see, I stayed there until the following spring, in April.
Mr. Hubert. That would have been April of 1960?
Mr. Crafard. April of 1960. Then I went back out home to Oregon.
Mr. Hubert. When you left the U.S. Army, did you have any money?
Mr. Crafard. How is that?
Mr. Hubert. When you left the U.S. Army did you have any money?
Mr. Crafard. Just what I got from my discharge pay.
Mr. Hubert. How much was that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I had right around $400 all together.
Mr. Hubert. Is that all you had?
Mr. Crafard. That is all I had; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I mean is that all the property you had of any sort whatsoever?
Mr. Crafard. I had a few items of personal clothing.
Mr. Hubert. I mean you had no items such as rings or jewelry or things of that kind?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I never wear jewelry, rings.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have an automobile?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t own any real estate, I take it?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have any cash but what you said?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Would it be correct to estimate that your total worth other than the cash you just mentioned at that time was less than a hundred dollars?
Mr. Crafard. I would say so; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, how long did you stay with your sister?
Mr. Crafard. I stayed with them for about 6 or 7 months.
Mr. Hubert. Did you work?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Crafard. In the pulpwoods.
Mr. Hubert. What does that mean?
Mr. Crafard. We were cutting pulpwood.
Mr. Hubert. What did that pay?
Mr. Crafard. It was piece work. We was making about $8 a cord.
Mr. Hubert. About how much would that amount to a month?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, man.
Mr. Hubert. Just an estimate?
Mr. Crafard. Probably right around $400.
Mr. Hubert. That would be net before taxes, wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you assist your sister financially for board and so forth?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; we was working together, my brother-in-law and I.
Mr. Hubert. What I mean was were you able to save any money?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t save any money there.
Mr. Hubert. You did not. You stayed there about 7 months?
Mr. Crafard. About 7 months.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you go then?
Mr. Crafard. Then I went back out home.
Mr. Hubert. That is to say where?
Mr. Crafard. To Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. At the time you made the move then from the home of your sister to Dallas, Oreg., how much money did you have then?
Mr. Crafard. About $150, enough to go out there.
Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that you had spent all the money you had earned by working plus a good part of the savings or the money you had received from the Army?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. So that upon arrival at your parent’s home in Dallas, Oreg., you had approximately $150.
Mr. Crafard. I was almost broke when I arrived home.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any other type of property?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Can you fix the time of your arrival back in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. It would have been in March of 1960.
Mr. Hubert. All right. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. My main residence then up until this last fall has been Dallas, Oreg. I have done a lot of traveling around.
Mr. Hubert. What did you do to support yourself from the time you returned to your parents in March 1960?
Mr. Crafard. I went to work in the fruit——
Mr. Hubert. In the fruit what?
Mr. Crafard. In the fruit, picking fruit. Then I went to work in a cannery. Then I was gone for a while and I worked with the carnivals when I was gone.
Mr. Hubert. I think we had better get some details about that. How long did you work with the fruit industry?
Mr. Crafard. Probably right around a month.
Mr. Hubert. That would have been in the spring of 1960?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Then you went to the cannery?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you work there?
Mr. Crafard. I worked there for about 6 months.
Mr. Hubert. What did you make there?
Mr. Crafard. I was making a $1.15 an hour.
Mr. Hubert. What did it net you before taxes by the month about?
Mr. Crafard. I would say probably right around $400 for the month.
Mr. Hubert. When did you leave your parent’s home?
Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t give you an exact date on this, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Well, would it be fair to say it was about 7 months after you arrived there from Michigan?
Mr. Crafard. It was in the spring of 1961. I believe, probably in April of 1961.
Mr. Hubert. So that in fact you were with your parents after you moved from Michigan to Dallas, Oreg., for approximately 1 year?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Of which time you say you worked about 7 months?
Mr. Crafard. I went to school for about 6 months out of it, about 5 or 6 months out of the year, I attended high school.
Mr. Hubert. Did you finish?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What high school was that?
Mr. Crafard. Dallas High.
Mr. Hubert. Oregon?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You were not earning anything then?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I take it that you left Dallas, Oreg., about April in 1961, is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you go next?
Mr. Crafard. I went to California where I joined the carnival.
Mr. Hubert. What part of California?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, in Oroville, Calif., where I joined the carnival.
Mr. Hubert. Oroville?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What carnival was it?
Mr. Crafard. Royal West Golden Gate combined.
Mr. Hubert. Royal West Golden Gate combined?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What type of carnival was it?
Mr. Crafard. It was more or less about the general run of the mill for a carnival. Mostly rides.
Mr. Hubert. When you say “carnival” you are talking about a place where they have these rides for children and so forth?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How big a carnival was it, I mean, how many people were involved?
Mr. Crafard. It is pretty hard to say exactly.
Mr. Hubert. What did you do with it?
Mr. Crafard. I was working with the circus that was attached to the carnival.
Mr. Hubert. Animal circus?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. They all traveled as a group?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How long were you with that, in that sort of a group?
Mr. Crafard. I worked that for about 3 or 4 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. That is all, 3 or 4 weeks?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. All right, where did you go to next?
Mr. Crafard. I traveled through Georgia where I joined another carnival in Georgia, Jerry Lepke Ten in One.
Mr. Hubert. What sort of a side show was it?
Mr. Crafard. He had the sword box, ladder of swords, fire eater, two-headed baby show, and a snake girl show.
Mr. Hubert. What did you do at that carnival?
Mr. Crafard. Roustabout and barker.
Mr. Hubert. How long were you with them?
Mr. Crafard. I was with Lepke for about a week.
Mr. Hubert. All right. After that?
Mr. Crafard. Then I went to Michigan.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. I visited with my sister and my brother-in-law again for a little while for about 2 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. Which one?
Mr. Crafard. Tenniswood. Then I went to Detroit where I joined a kiddyland setup.
Mr. Hubert. That is sort of a carnival strictly for children?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; parking lot carnival.
Mr. Hubert. About what time was that then?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was in the fall of 1961.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with that organization?
Mr. Crafard. I was with him for about 2 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. Then what did you do?
Mr. Crafard. I went back to Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. When you got to Dallas what did you do? Oregon, I mean.
Mr. Crafard. I went to work part time at the Muir and McDonald Leather Tannery and then I went to work for Boise Cascade Valzets Division for the Boise Cascade Plywood. I worked for them until in June of 1962, June 10th, 1962.
Mr. Hubert. How long then did you work for them?
Mr. Crafard. For about 6 months, I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. What were you making there?
Mr. Crafard. I was making, I believe, $2.25 an hour.
Mr. Hubert. About what did it amount to by the month before taxes?
Mr. Crafard. About $400, $450.
Mr. Hubert. You were not married at this time?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Were you able to save money?
Mr. Crafard. I was spending my money just about as fast as I made it. I was traveling, paying for transportation back and forth to work, buying clothes. By that time I had bought a motorcycle or a motorbike, and I bought a few items, I bought a refrigerator for my mother or a dryer for my mother at that time.
Mr. Hubert. Now, we have some information that you worked for Federal Aviation Agency through July and October of 1960 in Los Angeles?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; in Los Angeles—I believe they were out of Los Angeles, where I worked for them that was over in Nevada.
Mr. Hubert. What kind of work did you do?
Mr. Crafard. Surveyor’s assistant. I had forgotten I had worked for them.
Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us anything about your employment with Stewart-Hill in Berkeley, Calif., 1052 Dwight Way, Berkeley, Calif?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember even.
Mr. Hubert. That would have been between July and September of 1960?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember working for the Teer Plating Co., Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us about it, please.
Mr. Crafard. I believe I worked for them 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.
Mr. Hubert. How much did you make with them?
Mr. Crafard. I was making a dollar and a quarter an hour while I worked for them. I believe when I left there my last check was either $65 or $85.
Mr. Hubert. Is that the first time you had ever been in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I believe it was, I am not certain of that.
Mr. Hubert. That was between April and June of 1961, was it not?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so. The way I have traveled around, I had a lot of jobs I even forgot about almost.
Mr. Hubert. What was this Muir Co. you were talking about?
Mr. Crafard. It was a leather tannery.
Mr. Hubert. In Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Muir McDonald?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. At 111 Street. Is that Dallas, Tex., or Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. You worked for them for about almost year, with a couple of time outs, didn’t you?
Mr. Crafard. Altogether I worked for them about 18 months. But including the time I worked part time and I worked part time for them for a while while I was working for J. C. Tracy.
Mr. Hubert. What was J. C. Tracy?
Mr. Crafard. That is a cannery in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. So that during one period you were working two jobs—with Muir McDonald and with J. C. Tracy?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I worked for Muir and McDonald an hour and a half, 2 hours, maybe 3 hours a week.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever work for Ablon Poultry Co.?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that was after I was married.
Mr. Hubert. That was where?
Mr. Crafard. In Dallas, Tex. At that time I was residing at the Letot Trailer Park with my wife and family.
Mr. Hubert. When did you leave Dallas, Oreg., then?
Mr. Crafard. When I went to work there, you mean?
Mr. Hubert. You had gone to Dallas, Oreg., I think it was in the spring of 1961, wasn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there really about 18 months, right, working for Muir McDonald?
Mr. Crafard. All together.
Mr. Hubert. When you left Dallas, Oreg., you were not married, were you?
Mr. Crafard. The last time I left Dallas——
Mr. Hubert. No; I am talking about the time you left in the latter part of 1962 or early 1963.
Mr. Crafard. I was married June of 1962.
Mr. Hubert. So your wife lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. For about 6 months we was living in Dallas, Oreg., from June 10 until I believe in December.
Mr. Hubert. Where were you married?
Mr. Crafard. I was married in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. Where was your wife from?
Mr. Crafard. Originally from Texas.
Mr. Hubert. What was her name?
Mr. Crafard. Her maiden name was Wilma Jean Case.
Mr. Hubert. C-a-s-e?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Had she been married before?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What was her husband’s name?
Mr. Crafard. Donald Johnson.
Mr. Hubert. How many times was she married before she married you?
Mr. Crafard. Just the one time.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you meet her?
Mr. Crafard. I met her in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. When? How long before you married?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was in 1961.
Mr. Hubert. What part of 1961?
Mr. Crafard. In the spring, I believe, it would have been in March of 1961.
Mr. Hubert. You knew her about 15 months then before you got married?
Mr. Crafard. All told; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Were you working in Dallas at the time you met her?
Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t employed at the time I met my wife.
Mr. Hubert. How did you meet her?
Mr. Crafard. I met her at the Salvation Army in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. What was she doing?
Mr. Crafard. She was there with her husband Donald Johnson at that time.
Mr. Hubert. She was living with him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. When was she divorced from her husband?
Mr. Crafard. She was divorced in 1962, I believe, in April, I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. All the time you were living up in Oregon with your parents, did you see her or correspond with her?
Mr. Crafard. No; I hadn’t saw her for a year.
Mr. Hubert. You had not seen her for a year when you married her?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I had—I went to Dallas, Tex., trying to find her. From Dallas, Tex., I went to Las Vegas, Nev., where I got in touch with her and where we corresponded for a period of about 5 months.
Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you say that your interest in her as a person to be your wife grew up during this period?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly, yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And she agreed to marry you and came up to Dallas, Oreg., to do so?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did she work while you were living in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; she lived with my parents.
Mr. Hubert. And so did you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you have any children?
Mr. Crafard. I have one child by her. She has a stepson, I have a stepson, her son.
Mr. Hubert. She had a son by the first marriage?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What is that son’s name?
Mr. Crafard. Don Johnson, Billy Don Johnson.
Mr. Hubert. How old is he?
Mr. Crafard. He is 2 years old approximately.
Mr. Hubert. He is 2 years old now?
Mr. Crafard. He was 2 years old in December. He will be 2½.
Mr. Hubert. And you have a child by her?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; Robert Johnson.
Mr. Hubert. When was that child born?
Mr. Crafard. He was born March 10, 1963—March 2, excuse me.
Mr. Hubert. When did you move to Dallas, Tex.—let’s take it chronologically. What happened after you left, where did you go after you left Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. I went to California, I left Dallas, Oreg., the first day of March 1963. I went to California where I spent the month, spent about 3 or 4 weeks, then I went to Dallas, Tex., where my wife was living. We had a reconciliation.
Mr. Hubert. Before you tell us about the reconciliation, you had better tell us about the breakup because I don’t think that is in the record yet.
Mr. Crafard. We—she had left me about 6 months after we married, and I stayed in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. So she left you about December 1962?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, Oreg., for about 6 months after that.
Mr. Hubert. She was pregnant then, was she not?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, as far as I know; yes.
Mr. Hubert. The child was born in March of 1963.
Mr. Crafard. Well, I will tell you the truth, the doctor has some doubts himself so I couldn’t say.
Mr. Hubert. I mean she was pregnant when she left is what I mean in December. I think we are thinking about two different things.
Mr. Crafard. No. I believe we are thinking about the same thing.
Mr. Hubert. I am not asking you whether she was pregnant when you married her.
Mr. Crafard. No; I know that.
Mr. Hubert. I am asking you whether she was pregnant when she left you in December of 1962, because you have just told us that the child was born in March of 1963.
Mr. Crafard. I will put it this way. When the doctor was informed she had a child, her doctor was then informed she had a child, he was very shocked and surprised that she had had a child, and she was his patient in May of 1962. He operated on her in May of 1962. So in other words, there is some doubt as to the fact that the child was mine and actually there is a little doubt as to the child is actually hers.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I wish you would explain that latter part. How can there be some doubt that the child is hers?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t really understand it entirely myself. But the doctor that performed the operation when he was informed she had had the child he was very shocked and very surprised that she had had a child. He wouldn’t say any reason for being so but he was. But I took him—I had understood from him that she wouldn’t be able to have a child for about 2 years after the operation.
Mr. Hubert. What was the cause of your breakup?
Mr. Crafard. That, I do not know.
Mr. Hubert. You mean she just left?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did she leave any notes or anything?
Mr. Crafard. She didn’t leave anything. I went to work on Tuesday morning and come home Tuesday and she was gone.
Mr. Hubert. With her child?
Mr. Crafard. With the boy; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you attempt to find her?
Mr. Crafard. I put a tracer on her.
Mr. Hubert. Well now, when you say you put a tracer, what do you mean?
Mr. Crafard. I had the law put a tracer out on her.
Mr. Hubert. As a missing person?
Mr. Crafard. As a missing person; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you get any reports?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. Hubert. When did you next see her or hear from her?
Mr. Crafard. I heard from her in February of 1963. The latter part.
Mr. Hubert. In what way?
Mr. Crafard. She wrote to me and told me that she was going to have the baby, and then in March of 1963 I received a letter in California, my folks had sent down to me, from her saying that she had had the baby and would love for me to come see the baby if I wanted to. And I went to Dallas, Tex. And we had a reconciliation.
Mr. Hubert. What date did you arrive in Dallas, do you know?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, right around the 14th, I believe.
Mr. Hubert. Of March?
Mr. Crafard. Of March.
Mr Hubert. Did you have any money then?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Have any other kind of property?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; just a few clothes.
Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say you were, pretty broke?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. Hubert. Where was she living?
Mr Crafard. She was at that time staying with her mother and father in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. At what location?
Mr. Crafard. At Letot Trailer Park.
Mr. Hubert. How do you spell that?
Mr. Crafard. L-e-t-o-t.
Mr. Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr Crafard. On Lombardy Lane.
Mr. Hubert. Did you live with her then?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What did you do, get another trailer?
Mr. Crafard. For about a week I lived there with her and her parents. I went to work at the Ablon Poultry and her parents moved away and then for a while her brother and her sister-in-law lived with us; we lived together for a while.
Mr. Hubert. At Letot’s?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What is their name?
Mr Crafard. It is John Case, Mr. and Mrs. John Case.
Mr. Hubert. Where do they live now?
Mr. Crafard. I have no idea of their present address.
Mr. Hubert. When did you go to work in Dallas, Tex?
Mr. Crafard. About a week after I arrived there.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Crafard. At Ablon Poultry.
Mr. Hubert. What kind of work were you doing there?
Mr. Crafard. I was working in the hanging racks, hanging chickens.
Mr. Hubert. How much were you making there?
Mr. Crafard. $1.10 an hour.
Mr. Hubert. How much did that amount to by the month?
Mr Crafard. Probably right around $200, $225, right around there; I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. You were still living with your wife then?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What happened after that?
Mr. Crafard. I went to work at the Porter Building Co. in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr. Crafard. Harry Heinz Circle.
Mr. Hubert. Is that the outfit called the Valley Office and School Equipment Co?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you work for that company?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I did for a little while. It wasn’t very long.
Mr. Hubert. What about the Office Building Co. that you were talking about, how long did you work for them?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, I don’t even remember working for the company actually.
Mr. Hubert. I am talking about the first one you mentioned yourself.
Mr. Crafard. The Porter Building Co.?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. I worked for them for about a month or a month and a half.
Mr. Hubert. After that who did you work for?
Mr. Crafard. We went to Washington, the State of Washington, to Mount Angeles or Port Angeles in the State of Washington.
Mr. Hubert. About when was that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was in May or—it was in June, I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. When you say “we” you mean you and your wife and your two children?
Mr. Crafard. And my two boys.
Mr. Hubert. How did you travel?
Mr. Crafard. We went up by bus.
Mr. Hubert. Had you been able to save any money then?
Mr. Crafard. I had money when we left there, I had been able to save some then. We stopped in California and I worked for a while 2 or 3 weeks in California.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you work?
Mr. Crafard. With a carnival. Then we went on up to Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr. Hubert. Port Angeles?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. We was there for about 6 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. Until what date?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the date.
Mr. Hubert. Well, it was the summer of 1963, wasn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was your wife still with you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; we were together at that time.
Mr. Hubert. All right. What was your next move?
Mr. Crafard. The next thing happened she left me again.
Mr. Hubert. On what date was that?
Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t give you a date on that either.
Mr. Hubert. Well——
Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember the dates too well.
Mr. Hubert. Well, it was the summer time?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; it was in the summer. I believe it was in the latter part of August or the middle of August, I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. Did she leave any note this time when she left?
Mr. Crafard. She left a note with some friends of ours in Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr. Hubert. What was the cause of her leaving, did she say?
Mr. Crafard. She didn’t say.
Mr. Hubert. Did she leave any forwarding address?
Mr. Crafard. She had went to my brother’s in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. Hubert. Which brother was that, that is the one in the Army?
Mr. Crafard. Crafard, yes, sir; Edward D.
Mr. Hubert. How long did she stay with him?
Mr. Crafard. She was there about 2 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. Where did she go?
Mr. Crafard. He brought her up to my folk’s place, I went from Washington down to my folk’s place.
Mr. Hubert. That is Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. Crafard. He brought her up to my folk’s there, in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have a reconciliation again?
Mr. Crafard. We tried a reconciliation. It didn’t work out.
Mr. Hubert. So what happened?
Mr. Crafard. So subsequently, about 3 weeks later, I left home, my folk’s place.
Mr. Hubert. You left her there?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. She had already gone?
Mr. Crafard. No; she was still there over at my folk’s place.
Mr. Hubert. That is what I mean, you left her there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I left her there.
Mr. Hubert. Judging by the time schedule you had mentioned that would have been around the middle of September, is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you go?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I went to California. I went down on the coast and I worked for a Chinese man down there raising strawberries.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. I was there for about a week. And from there I went to Long Beach, Calif. I went to work on the new Playland down on Long Beach. I was there for about a month, I believe it was. Then I went to Barstow, Calif., where I went to work for produce out there.
Mr. Hubert. What was the name of that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of that outfit.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Crafard. I was with him for about 3 or 4 weeks, I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. I take it that these jobs simply gave you enough money to live on and save up a little so you could move to the next place?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. All right. After that where did you go?
Mr. Crafard. I went to Michigan.
Mr. Hubert. What place there?
Mr. Crafard. Fife Lake, Mich.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you live there?
Mr. Crafard. I was there overnight. My sister and brother-in-law, Ingersol lived there, and——
Mr. Hubert. And you stayed with them?
Mr. Crafard. I stayed overnight there.
Mr. Hubert. Then where did you go?
Mr. Crafard. Then I went to—down into the southern part of Michigan, I joined another carnival down there.
Mr. Hubert. What was the name of the carnival.
Mr. Crafard. Happyland Amusements.
Mr. Hubert. Who was the owner of it?
Mr. Crafard. I am just trying to think of the name. I can think of the first name but I can’t think of his last name.
Mr. Hubert. Suppose you give us that.
Mr. Crafard. His first name was Bob. There were two brothers owned it.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with them?
Mr. Crafard. I was with them for about 3 weeks. We traveled from Michigan to Memphis, Tenn. We played the Memphis Fair.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in Memphis?
Mr. Crafard. We was there for 2 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. What was your next move?
Mr. Crafard. My next move was, while I was in Memphis I quit them and went to work for Leonard Wood who owned a trabant.
Mr. Hubert. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. It is one of the newest owned rides out, it is a German-made ride.
Mr. Hubert. Leonard Wood was his name?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that was in Memphis, Tenn.
Mr. Hubert. And you joined him really to move, is that right?
Mr. Crafard. No. I made the move with a friend of mine.
Mr. Hubert. I understood that you were working with the circus or carnival operated by a man named Bob and his brother?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you quit them to join Leonard Wood’s outfit.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; it was better pay.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay with Wood?
Mr. Crafard. I was with them for, I think it was the last 4 days of the fair, about 4 days.
Mr. Hubert. Then you quit him?
Mr. Crafard. Actually I got fired from him. There was a girl there that kept hanging around the ride and we couldn’t get rid of her and everybody tried to get rid of her. She thought she was in love with me or something.
Mr. Hubert. So Leonard Wood fired you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And what did you do next?
Mr. Crafard. I traveled to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. How did you travel?
Mr. Crafard. With a friend of mine, Mickey Spillane.
Mr. Hubert. Mickey who?
Mr. Crafard. Mickey Corday.
Mr. Hubert. How do you spell the last name?
Mr. Crafard. C-o-r-d-a-y.
Mr. Hubert. How did you travel?
Mr. Crafard. Traveled down in his car.
Mr. Hubert. Where is he from, do you know?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know where his home is.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know him prior to this time?
Mr. Crafard. I had seen him prior to this time and heard of him prior to this time.
Mr. Hubert. I mean it wasn’t a hitchhike?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I met him at the fairgrounds in Dallas, Tex., or in Memphis.
Mr. Hubert. Did you drive straight to Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. We drove straight to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. Now when you arrived in Dallas, what did you do?
Mr. Crafard. I went to work with an outfit “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup in the Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr. Hubert. Who was that?
Mr. Crafard. Deke Miles and Bob Craven.
Mr. Hubert. Had you known them before?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. What date was that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the date on that. It was the first day of the fair.
Mr. Hubert. It was the first day of what fair?
Mr. Crafard. The Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr. Griffin. This was in the fall of 1963?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How much money did you make with them?
Mr. Crafard. I made $5 a day.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you live?
Mr. Crafard. I stayed in the tent. I was night watchman in the tent. They had a lot of props and equipment in the tent.
Mr. Hubert. In the meantime what happened to your wife?
Mr. Crafard. I had no idea.
Mr. Hubert. To this day?
Mr. Crafard. To this day, I found out what had happened later but right now I have no idea where she is at.
Mr. Hubert. How long did she stay with your parents after you left?
Mr. Crafard. She was there with my parents for about 2 or 3 weeks and then she took a job babysitting. She stayed there for about a week and then she took sick I understand and was in the hospital for about 3 days. Was back with my parents for about a week and then they went to Dallas, Tex. She left the boys with my parents, was in Dallas, Tex., for 2 or 3 weeks, then she went back up home and picked the boys up and the last I had heard of she had went to Cuba, Mo., and left the boys with a woman there in Cuba, Mo., and was paying her to take care of the boys.
Mr. Hubert. How did you find out all this?
Mr. Crafard. This woman in Missouri wrote to my mother, that is how I found out she had been there and my mother told me what had happened when she was still with them.
Mr. Hubert. What is the last word you heard from your wife?
Mr. Crafard. How is that?
Mr. Hubert. What is the last time you heard anything about her?
Mr. Crafard. The last time I heard anything about her, had any news or had any knowledge of her whatsoever was about, on Saturday the 7th, March 7 of this year.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know where she is now?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Has she the children?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; she has got the children.
Mr. Hubert. When did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. I met Jack Ruby about the third day of the Dallas, Tex., State Fair, at the fairgrounds.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us about how you met him.
Mr. Crafard. He was backing the—Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles, and he come out there to talk to them.
Mr. Hubert. Were you present when they spoke?
Mr. Crafard. I was out front when he come out there.
Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to know them or——
Mr. Crafard. He knew them. They were acquainted.
Mr. Hubert. They were acquainted?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You could tell that from the conversation?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, they just walked up to each other and shook hands and called each other by the first name.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the substance of the conversation?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly the conversation had to do with a twistboard exerciser that Ruby was trying to promote.
Mr. Hubert. Well, go ahead.
Mr. Crafard. And he was there for about a half, 45 minutes that evening, and it was 2 or 3 days later before I saw him again.
Mr. Hubert. Before you go on, would you tell us how long after you joined the fair did you first see this man Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. About 2 or 3 days, about 2 days after I joined the fair.
Mr. Hubert. That would be about 2 days after the fair opened.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And the second time you saw him was about 3 days after that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Hubert. What was the occasion of seeing him the second time?
Mr. Crafard. He came out there to talk to Mr. Miles and Mr. Craven.
Mr. Hubert. Did you overhear that conversation?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what was the purpose of the conversation?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Mr. Miles—he had brought some props, a couple of prop chairs, some chairs used for props and a mirror used for a prop to be used.
Mr. Hubert. Jack Ruby brought that out to them?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What was his interest in this fair?
Mr. Crafard. I had no idea.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have any financial interest?
Mr. Crafard. He had some financial interest there.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr. Crafard. Mr. Craven had told me, we had been talking and he told me that Ruby had some financial interest in it.
Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate what it was about, how much?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Well, did Ruby put up money?
Mr. Crafard. From what I understood he had put up some money.
Mr. Hubert. How much?
Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.
Mr. Hubert. Did you hear Mr. Craven or Mr. Miles talk about what percentage he might have in the interests of the project?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; whenever I was around Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles I was pretty busy working most of the time.
Mr. Hubert. And you lived in the tent all the time?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any friends in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. There was a few people that I know there.
Mr. Hubert. Would you name them?
Mr. Crafard. Well, at that time there was as far as I knew my brother-in-law, John Case, lived in Dallas.
Mr. Hubert. He still did?
Mr. Crafard. And there was a few members of the church my wife and I went to still in Dallas there.
Mr. Hubert. Who were they?
Mr. Crafard. Brother Lee Cooksey and Robert Roskydall I believe it is.
Mr. Hubert. Who else?
Mr. Crafard. And that was about the only ones I knew around there right then. I met some people during that fair.
Mr. Hubert. As to these people you have named, how close a relationship did you develop?
Mr. Crafard. Just church members together.
Mr. Hubert. What church was that?
Mr. Crafard. General Assembly and Church of the First Born.
Mr. Hubert. Where is it located?
Mr. Crafard. Out North Dallas is all I can give you.
Mr. Hubert. Was this State fair project called, “How Hollywood Makes Movies,” a success financially?
Mr. Crafard. No; it was an absolute failure.
Mr. Hubert. You mean people didn’t flock to it?
Mr. Crafard. We went bankrupt, they went broke.
Mr. Hubert. You mean they closed before the fair closed?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; it was only open for about a week. I had heard rumors to the effect that Mr. Craven had wrote a lot of bad checks to start with.
Mr. Hubert. Were you paid any salary by them?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly about all I got from them was expenses. It was supposed to be $5 a day but about all I got was my meals and cigarettes furnished.
Mr. Hubert. You got money from them?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Well, did it actually close its doors and stop operating before the fair closed?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; about a week, it only ran about a week.
Mr. Hubert. And the fair lasted how long?
Mr. Crafard. 2 weeks. When they left it was another outfit come in there with a dance band.
Mr. Hubert. When you say, “come in there,” you mean took over the space?
Mr. Crafard. Took over the space in the same tent.
Mr. Hubert. Did you stay with that outfit?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I stayed with that outfit.
Mr. Hubert. What was the name of it?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe they even had a real name for it.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us some of the people who were connected with it.
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see. I can’t even—there was Big Jess, he was one of the big shots around the State fair there.
Mr. Hubert. Was he a musician?
Mr. Crafard. No; he owns two or three rides on the fair grounds, permanent rides on the Dallas Texas State Fair Grounds.
Mr. Hubert. How was he connected with the organization that took the place of the other one?
Mr. Crafard. He took up the lease, the rent on the tent, on the space, and had this other outfit come in.
Mr. Hubert. The other outfit I take it was a band?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; musical band.
Mr. Hubert. How many pieces were there?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, I believe it was three- and four-piece band.
Mr. Hubert. How was it supposed to make money?
Mr. Crafard. Charged 50 cents to get in.
Mr. Hubert. You mean to listen to the music?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly listen to the music.
Mr. Hubert. What else?
Mr. Crafard. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. Hubert. They had some what?
Mr. Crafard. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. Hubert. You mean couples from the audience?
Mr. Crafard. At first and then they wouldn’t allow them to have couples on the stage from the audience any more so they hired a couple of dancers.
Mr. Hubert. Where did they hire them from?
Mr. Crafard. Girls around the fairgrounds.
Mr. Hubert. Did they get any from Ruby’s place?
Mr. Crafard. One of the girls came out from Ruby’s place.
Mr. Hubert. What was her name?
Mr. Crafard. Joy Dale.
Mr. Griffin. Dale?
Mr. Crafard. Dale. I don’t know her real name. Her first name was Joyce from what I understood.
Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize the name Joyce McDonald?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was her last name, yes.
Mr. Griffin. But her stage name was Joy, not Joyce?
Mr. Crafard. Joy Dale.
Mr. Hubert. What kind of a dance did she do?
Mr. Crafard. About all she done was worked out front. She would get out front and more than anything just stand around out there. She would come out originally to help this “How Hollywood Makes Movies” setup. They used her as an attraction piece.
Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby bring her out there then?
Mr. Crafard. I believe the first time she came out there I believe Jack brought her out there and introduced her to Miles and Craven.
Mr. Hubert. Did Jack have any interest in the second organization?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no. Except that he knew the man who was managing the setup there.
Mr. Hubert. And you have given us his name, I think already.
Mr. Crafard. Dusty was the name of the guy who was managing it. He was another carnival, carnie. He was managing it, Jess was backing it but Dusty was managing it.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know Dusty’s last name?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall it.
Mr. Hubert. Where did he live?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know—let’s see, I think his home was somewhere in Ohio.
Mr. Hubert. Did he stay with the organization until the end of it?
Mr. Crafard. He stayed with the organization until the law closed them down.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that.
Mr. Crafard. The stage dancers got, the last day they was getting, pretty wild.
Mr. Hubert. You mean the last day of the fair?
Mr. Crafard. No; the last day they was open. It was 2 or 3 days before the fair closed, they were getting pretty wild.
Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Crafard. With their dancing; it was getting real sexy.
Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t a striptease, was it?
Mr. Crafard. No; more than anything they were using the “Dirty Dog,” and it can be made so filthy that it will almost turn a person’s stomach if they do it right.
Mr. Hubert. Do they actually use dogs in this dance?
Mr. Crafard. No; it is a dance called, “The Dog,” but they have got what they call, “The Dirty Dog,” too.
Mr. Hubert. How many girls were involved in that?
Mr. Crafard. There were two girls and one guy.
Mr. Hubert. One of those girls was the girl called Joy Dale?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. What was she doing at that time?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I know Joy was just working at the club, Carousel Club at that time.
Mr. Hubert. She wasn’t connected with the show at the fair?
Mr. Crafard. She hadn’t been out there but about one time after the dance outfit took over.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know the names of the girls on the stage?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember their names.
Mr. Hubert. Had they come from Jack Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr. Crafard. They met them on the fairgrounds. They put an ad and the girls contacted them.
Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby come around to that second thing?
Mr. Crafard. He was around a couple of times.
Mr. Hubert. A couple of times?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he stay very long?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I could notice.
Mr. Hubert. Who was he with?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly by himself when he came out there.
Mr. Hubert. How did you get to know him?
Mr. Crafard. Well, just a couple of times talking to him around the fairgrounds there and he gave me a free pass into his club any time I wanted to go in.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go in?
Mr. Crafard. Not until after the fair closed when I went to work for Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. How much money did you make at the fair altogether?
Mr. Crafard. Altogether at the fair all I made was expenses.
Mr. Hubert. As I understood you had very little when you got there.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. So that when the fair closed you were just about flat broke.
Mr. Crafard. I was flat broke.
Mr. Hubert. What happened after the fair closed?
Mr. Crafard. Ruby hired me then to tear some lumber down, a stage he had had there at the tent. He brought the lumber out of it and he had me tear that down and clean it up.
Mr. Hubert. Of course, the thing had been closed for 2 days before the fair closed itself?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And I don’t suppose it reopened in any other fashion?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. How long did it take you to do the job that Ruby hired you for?
Mr. Crafard. About 4 hours all told.
Mr. Hubert. And this stuff was moved?
Mr. Crafard. Moved to the Carousel Club, downstairs in the Carousel Club where it was stored.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have anything to do with the moving?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; helped move the lumber and clean it up.
Mr. Hubert. Then your original employment by Ruby was for that job alone?
Mr. Crafard. When he hired me he said he had that for me that I could do and then he said I could stay, he wanted me to stay at the club that night, and the next day he talked to me and he had me stay with him.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us about your arrangement with Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly, there was no set salary, any time I needed salary I put a draw slip in the till and take it out of the till.
Mr. Hubert. What were you supposed to do?
Mr. Crafard. Help clean the club up, work the lights on the girls on stage, answer the phone calls, answer the phone when he wasn’t there. Work on the bar if they needed me or anything like that.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you did almost anything you were asked to do?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you live at that time?
Mr. Crafard. I stayed at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. What accommodations did they have for sleeping and so on?
Mr. Crafard. We had a room with a cot in it.
Mr. Hubert. Whose room was it?
Mr. Crafard. It had been at one time a dressing room for one of the stars he had in there, Jada, a stripper by the name of Jada.
Mr. Hubert. Was she there when you first went there?
Mr. Crafard. When I first went there; yes. At that time I slept in Jack’s office.
Mr. Hubert. Then when you first went to the Carousel you slept in Jack’s office?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was there a cot there, too?
Mr. Crafard. He had a couch in his office.
Mr. Hubert. When you first went there it was the day the fair closed or the day after?
Mr. Crafard. The day after the fair closed.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the date of that?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember the date.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay—strike that.
How long did you sleep in Jack’s office?
Mr. Crafard. For about a week.
Mr. Hubert. And then you moved into Jada’s room?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Or dressing room, that is after she had gone?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, after she had gone.
Mr. Hubert. And you stayed there until you left finally?
Mr. Crafard. I left the 23d of November, I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. What were your hours there?
Mr. Crafard. Any hours. I would just get up, I usually got up about 8 o’clock in the morning and I would be lucky if I would get to bed before 3:30, 4 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. How come you would get up so early?
Mr. Crafard. Get the club cleaned up.
Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t there a man to help?
Mr. Crafard. I took care of that mostly myself.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that stuff?
Mr. Crafard. Howard was a maintenance man.
Mr. Hubert. What did he do?
Mr. Crafard. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.
Mr. Hubert. He didn’t do the actual janitorial work?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?
Mr. Crafard. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his assistant manager.
Mr. Hubert. Is that Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.
Mr. Hubert. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?
Mr. Crafard. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2 o’clock in the morning the club closed.
Mr. Hubert. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o’clock?
Mr. Crafard. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. Then you went to bed?
Mr. Crafard. Then I went to bed.
Mr. Hubert. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?
Mr. Crafard. If I started cleaning up at 9 o’clock I would be finished by 11:30.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you had 2½ hours?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Were you then usually free?
Mr. Crafard. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3 hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.
Mr. Hubert. The club wasn’t open then, was it?
Mr. Crafard. No, the club didn’t open until 7:30 at night.
Mr. Hubert. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and that took 2½ or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone calls?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. Crafard. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore catercornered across the street.
Mr. Hubert. And you say you just took some money out of the cash register for that purpose?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did Jack permit you to do that?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn’t have done so.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. How much did it amount to?
Mr. Crafard. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with my cigarettes and what I ate.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?
Mr. Crafard. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about 3 o’clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was around the club.
Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after your cleanup job was over?
Mr. Crafard. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.
Mr. Hubert. Were there many phone calls to be answered?
Mr. Crafard. There was quite a few that would come in—generally, usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o’clock for reservations.
Mr. Hubert. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could handle the phone calls?
Mr. Crafard. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a reservation.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have to make notations about it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.
Mr. Hubert. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had called?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you were to do?
Mr. Crafard. Not unless it was—a couple of times he told me to feed the dogs or something like that—when he would call in, he would ask me if I fed the dogs.
Mr. Hubert. Where were they kept?
Mr. Crafard. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a storeroom.
Mr. Hubert. How many were there?
Mr. Crafard. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.
Mr. Hubert. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that change during the time you were there?
Mr. Crafard. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate and food and everything for the dog—to ship it.
Mr. Hubert. For a period then there were three dogs there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was that dog ever shipped to California?
Mr. Crafard. Not while I was there; no, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the man’s name was who the dog was to be shipped to in California?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what place in California?
Mr. Crafard. Los Angeles, I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. You had to check that to get the rates?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?
Mr. Crafard. Not as far as I—I am not positive I had seen him.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?
Mr. Crafard. There was a couple of friends of Jack’s there from California while I was there and it might have been one of them.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know their names?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember their names.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when they were at Jack’s place?
Mr. Crafard. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week I was there with him.
Mr. Griffin. Were there—you say there were a couple of fellows?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Two or three or how many?
Mr. Crafard. I think they come at different times, I believe there was one guy come in one time and then about a week—3 or 4 days later another guy.
Mr. Griffin. But they were both there together for a while?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who came?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I couldn’t even identify him if he was to stand in front of me.
Mr. Griffin. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?
Mr. Crafard. He wasn’t there too much during the day.
Mr. Griffin. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was there?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack’s, a house guest.
Mr. Griffin. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?
Mr. Crafard. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don’t remember his name.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Griffin. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?
Mr. Crafard. More likely I was, but I don’t recall him.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t; I saw so many people around the club.
Mr. Griffin. The second man who came, how long did he stay?
Mr. Crafard. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a row that he was in the club with Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Did he come at night or during the day?
Mr. Crafard. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at night but I didn’t notice him if he was.
Mr. Griffin. What did you pick up that his business might have been there?
Mr. Crafard. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see Jack.
Mr. Hubert. You never heard them conversing?
Mr. Crafard. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a habit to step back where I couldn’t hear the conversation.
Mr. Hubert. Why did you do that?
Mr. Crafard. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so, since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can’t hear the conversation that is being held.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else anything about either of these two men?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory now?
Mr. Crafard. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those two men?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Is that all?
Mr. Crafard. That is all I can think of causing the association.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a photographer at the club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where that photographer was from?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any—how long was this photographer there?
Mr. Crafard. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.
Mr. Hubert. Was his name Eddie Rocco?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about from California or were these two men different, from California?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall; it might have been. He might have been from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen, fellows——
Mr. Hubert. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club. They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they were there.
Mr. Hubert. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?
Mr. Crafard. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone calls and then they would leave.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know where they went?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Jack would go out with them?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you notice how long they stayed?
Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t know how long they would stay with Jack. He might take off at 11 o’clock in the morning and wouldn’t be back all day.
Mr. Hubert. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with them?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall him doing so. He might have.
Mr. Hubert. Have you any recollection that having left with one of those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?
Mr. Crafard. I have no recollection of that either. He was—people would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or sometimes he would come back.
Mr. Hubert. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about these two men from California that makes their visits there still a part of your memory.
Mr. Crafard. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr. Hubert. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?
Mr. Crafard. Jack would usually call me in the morning.
Mr. Hubert. About what time?
Mr. Crafard. Anywhere from 8 o’clock on.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any other way of waking up?
Mr. Crafard. Not unless Andrew would come by.
Mr. Hubert. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so you might commence your work?
Mr. Crafard. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he got up.
Mr. Hubert. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?
Mr. Crafard. A couple of times Andy would call me.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How did you come to know him?
Mr. Crafard. Jack introduced me to him at the club.
Mr. Hubert. Was he there often?
Mr. Crafard. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I believe he was a business associate of Jack’s.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you find that out?
Mr. Crafard. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere, Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.
Mr. Hubert. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?
Mr. Crafard. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner all the time.
Mr. Hubert. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at random?
Mr. Crafard. No. Never knew when he was going to come.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.
Mr. Hubert. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that the man had some property interest in that club or some financial interest?
Mr. Crafard. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.
Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t know about what?
Mr. Crafard. No, I didn’t know about what.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack keep any books?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What kind of books did he keep?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax, regular books, business books.
Mr. Hubert. You mean ledgers?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who made the entries in them?
Mr. Crafard. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do all his bookkeeping.
Mr. Hubert. Who was that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember who he was.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see him?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there during the day.
Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know his name?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. He asked for the books?
Mr. Crafard. Andy give him some papers.
Mr. Hubert. Papers or books?
Mr. Crafard. Some of the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books together?
Mr. Crafard. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and they would do talking. It was usually during when—during the evening when the club was in operation and I would be out front.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know Eva Grant?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is she?
Mr. Crafard. She was Jack Ruby’s sister.
Mr. Hubert. How did you come to meet her?
Mr. Crafard. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.
Mr. Hubert. How often did you see her?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I saw Eva about four times.
Mr. Hubert. Did you get to know her as a person?
Mr. Crafard. Not too well.
Mr. Hubert. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?
Mr. Crafard. Just for a few minutes at a time.
Mr. Hubert. Did she have any interest in Ruby’s affairs?
Mr. Crafard. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.
Mr. Hubert. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?
Mr. Crafard. So far as I know; no.
Mr. Hubert. Jack never told you that she did?
Mr. Crafard. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack’s as far as I knew.
Mr. Griffin. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall was she, how heavy was she?
Mr. Crafard. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135 pounds, stands probably right around 5′6″, I would say.
Mr. Griffin. So she is not a heavy woman?
Mr. Crafard. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real nice-looking woman.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know her age?
Mr. Crafard. How is that?
Mr. Hubert. Do you know her age?
Mr. Crafard. No, but I believe she is Jack’s older sister.
Mr. Hubert. How did you get that information, from Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.
Mr. Hubert. You have been to the Vegas, haven’t you?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.
Mr. Hubert. You worked there?
Mr. Crafard. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.
Mr. Hubert. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How did you get that information?
Mr. Crafard. Jack said she was managing the club for him.
Mr. Hubert. Were you there when she was there?
Mr. Crafard. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who was he?
Mr. Crafard. He was a friend of Jack’s he was with Jack quite often.
Mr. Hubert. Well, how often?
Mr. Crafard. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times a week anyway.
Mr. Hubert. You mean when they would come in at night or in the afternoon this man Senator would be with him?
Mr. Crafard. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.
Mr. Hubert. Can you give us a description of him?
Mr. Crafard. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5′4″, 5′5″.
Mr. Hubert. A very short man?
Mr. Crafard. Fairly short. Wasn’t much taller than Jack. He probably would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.
Mr. Hubert. Fat or husky?
Mr. Crafard. Kind of on the fat side.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have a limp?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he did, I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything else about the relationship between him and Jack?
Mr. Crafard. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I believe.
Mr. Hubert. Were you ever at Jack’s apartment?
Mr. Crafard. I was over to Jack’s apartment on two different occasions.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see then any evidence that they were living together?
Mr. Crafard. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms and he told me that one bedroom was George’s room.
Mr. Hubert. Ruby told you that?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see George at the apartment?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. You only went there twice?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there for a few minutes and then leave.
Mr. Hubert. And you never saw Senator at the club—at the apartment?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack’s affairs?
Mr Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Did he work for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.
Mr. Hubert. What does working on the door mean?
Mr. Crafard. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the door.
Mr. Hubert. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?
Mr. Crafard. Bill DeMar was a comedian.
Mr. Hubert. Was he there when you were there?
Mr. Crafard. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.
Mr. Hubert. How long did he stay?
Mr. Crafard. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I believe.
Mr. Hubert. What sort of a fellow was he?
Mr. Crafard. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life you can size these people up pretty well.
Mr. Crafard. I haven’t only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I have never been wrong in my life but once.
Mr. Hubert. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?
Mr. Crafard. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn’t strike me, I didn’t like him. I got along with him, I associated with him at the club but I wouldn’t want to associate with him as a close friend.
Mr. Hubert. What was there about him——
Mr. Crafard. He didn’t strike me just right.
Mr. Hubert. Do you think he is a fake?
Mr. Crafard. Well, I think 90 percent of him was fake, I would say. He was a fairly decent comedian but his way was “Big me and little you. I am everything and nobody else is anything,” was the way he struck me.
Mr. Hubert. He was there about how long?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he was there for about 2 weeks, I am not sure, between 2 and 3 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever get to converse with him?
Mr. Crafard. While he was there in the club I would speak with him, talk with him a little bit.
Mr. Hubert. There was never any trouble between you, was there?
Mr. Crafard. No, there was never any trouble between us. I say he was an easy-going person.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see Joyce McDonald around there, the girl you previously identified?
Mr. Crafard. Joy was working on the stage.
Mr. Hubert. What was she doing?
Mr. Crafard. She was a stripper.
Mr. Hubert. What was the relationship between her and Jack, do you know?
Mr. Crafard. That of boss and employee.
Mr. Hubert. You never observed anything else?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. She was with him a lot, though, personally?
Mr. Crafard. She would talk with him around the club that I could see. She would talk with Jack.
Mr. Hubert. Didn’t she go out to dinner with him?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Hubert. Some time?
Mr. Crafard. She might have. I heard Jack make the remark at one time that he had been involved with every one of the girls that worked for him at one time.
Mr. Hubert. You heard him say that?
Mr. Crafard. He made the remark to me because of one of the waitresses worked for him was a real sweet-looking girl and she had a real wonderful personality.
Mr. Hubert. Who was that?
Mr. Crafard. Marge, that is the only name I know her by, I don’t know her last name.
Mr. Hubert. She was a stripper?
Mr. Crafard. She was a waitress.
Mr. Hubert. So what about Marge?
Mr. Crafard. How is that?
Mr. Hubert. What about Marge?
Mr. Crafard. I said something, going out with her or something and he made the statement that he had had a relationship with everyone of the girls who worked for him.
Mr. Hubert. When you say relationship or when he said it, you did understand him to refer to sexual relationship?
Mr. Crafard. Sexual relationship.
Mr. Hubert. There can be no doubt about that?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What did you infer from that remark of his relative to the remark you had made about your interest in Marge?
Mr. Crafard. Well, it would—my remark had been on the sexual basis.
Mr. Hubert. Well, did you regard that as sort of a consent on his part for you to go ahead?
Mr. Crafard. No. He didn’t want me to go, to have anything to do with any of the girls that worked for him.
Mr. Hubert. So that in effect he was telling you that he was the one who was to have the sexual relationships with the girls and not anyone else?
Mr. Crafard. That is about the effect of it.
Mr. Hubert. Did he say it as clearly as that?
Mr. Crafard. No; he didn’t say it in so many words, but just an implied statement.
Mr. Hubert. That is the meaning you got out of that colloquy, is that right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us as best you can remember what the conversation was?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. I said something about I would like to get ahold of that or something, and Jack said, he said, he had already gotten into it or something like that, and something said about his girls, and I said so far as I am concerned—at that time it was a little later after I went to work for him—I said, “As far as I am concerned you haven’t got a stripper I am interested in,” and he said, “I have had a relationship with every one of them.”
Mr. Griffin. Did you think Jack was puffing on that or did you believe him?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know. As far as the strippers went I can very well believe that but the waitresses it was pretty hard to believe because little Marge, she ended up marrying a guy, and she was pretty stiff on him, and in fact, so much that I have tried everything I could to get her even to go out with me and she wouldn’t do it. And the other girls didn’t seem too much to me like the type that would do so.
Mr. Hubert. You did have a girl you went out with you used to meet at the Eatwell?
Mr. Crafard. One of the girls who worked for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. What was her name?
Mr. Crafard. She went to work for him later, I can’t even remember her name now. The only one of the bunch I can remember, there were three girls there roomed together, the only one I can remember is Norma, and I first got acquainted with her was over the telephone and we had quite a conversation, and we became rather friendly over the telephone and when we met we was fairly friendly.
Mr. Hubert. Did she work for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. No; Jack tried to get her to work as a stripper which he would do with every female, every nice-looking girl, that he met. She would have nothing to do with it.
Mr. Hubert. So you had this conversation with her on the telephone? Did you get to meet her?
Mr. Crafard. I met her at the club; yes. I met her in person and then I got to know her fairly well. We was together several times.
Mr. Hubert. You mean on private dates?
Mr. Crafard. Well, it would be her and these other two girls. I was with the other girl mostly, and we would go over together and three of us sit together while we eat, and I would walk the girls home, something like that. They would come to the club and the club would close and I would walk this other girl home.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, there were two girls who worked for the club?
Mr. Crafard. No; only one worked for the club.
Mr. Hubert. Which one was that, it was not Norma?
Mr. Crafard. Norma——
Mr. Hubert. What was her name?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember that girl’s name. I can’t remember the girl’s name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away from the club.
Mr. Hubert. That was the one who was the waitress?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met Norma back at the club.
Mr. Hubert. Had Norma ever worked for the club?
Mr. Crafard. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was trying to get her to work as a stripper.
Mr. Griffin. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?
Mr. Crafard. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl went to work for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20 miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever go out there?
Mr. Crafard. No; I never went out there.
Mr. Hubert. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?
Mr. Crafard. She give me her address, address and phone number.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number which I do with all girls who come for a job.
Mr. Griffin. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?
Mr. Crafard. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store where to buy clothes.
Mr. Griffin. Jack bought her the clothes?
Mr. Crafard. He give me the money to buy the clothes.
Mr. Hubert. How much was the amount?
Mr. Crafard. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he bought clothes for the girl.
Mr. Griffin. Ten dollar bill?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. She couldn’t buy much with a $10 bill.
Mr. Crafard. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came to work for Paul?
Mr. Crafard. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something happened between them to where she wouldn’t have anything to do with Jack.
Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know what it was that happened?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea?
Mr. Crafard. I have an opinion; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Can you give us an idea?
Mr. Crafard. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got out of hand and she put a stop to it.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you to believe it?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.
Mr. Griffin. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some unusual kind of sexual relations?
Mr. Crafard. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.
Mr. Griffin. How old a girl would you say she was?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person, easy to like.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant that you dated?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I think it was?
Mr. Crafard. It was on Commerce.
Mr. Hubert. Commerce.
Mr. Crafard. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got acquainted with him a little bit.
Mr. Hubert. How many girls in the club went there?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe the girls in the club went there to eat often.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?
Mr. Crafard. The name isn’t familiar to me.
Mr. Hubert. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the Nichol’s Garage next door?
Mr. Crafard. That would be the colored boy, I believe.
Mr. Hubert. No; this was a white man.
Mr. Crafard. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer or two.
Mr. Hubert. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?
Mr. Crafard. No; the garage. In the office.
Mr. Hubert. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby’s best friends other than his business acquaintances?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.
Mr. Hubert. What about girl friends?
Mr. Crafard. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he went with quite a few times.
Mr. Hubert. Was she a stripper?
Mr. Crafard. No; she didn’t work for him.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know her first name?
Mr. Crafard. I am not positive of her name. I don’t recall her name. Names is something to me that doesn’t mean much. I meet so many people.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell Restaurant?
Mr. Crafard. Not too well.
Mr. Griffin. Were there a couple of older men?
Mr. Crafard. One older man that worked behind the counter in the evenings.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?
Mr. Crafard. He didn’t eat there when I was there with him, after I went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.
Mr. Griffin. Was that the older man?
Mr. Crafard. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw there.
Mr. Griffin. You don’t recall his name, first name, do you?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall his first name.
Mr. Griffin. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you recall?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would just as soon get ahold of and tear up.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Hubert. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack went out with socially.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not work at the club?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know how often. It was quite often.
Mr. Hubert. How would it come to your attention that he was going out with her?
Mr. Crafard. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out to dinner.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go out to dinner with them?
Mr. Crafard. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went out with her that he took her to dinner?
Mr. Crafard. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to dinner.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see her at his apartment?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his apartment?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Hubert. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs on which I am writing as follows: “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard.” And I am signing my name below there. On the next picture I am also marking, “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition of C. L. Crafard” and signing my name.
(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E for identification.)
Mr. Hubert. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C, 5200-D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those pictures you can see the girl we have just been talking about, to wit, the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?
Mr. Crafard. Her picture is in every one.
Mr. Hubert. Her picture is in every one?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by referring to her dress?
Mr. Crafard. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and white striped dress.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember if it was red and white?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember the color, but it seems to me it would be a stripe, something that people would wear.
Mr. Hubert. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and white dress similar to that dress?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and white checkered dress on.
Mr. Hubert. Not stripes like that?
Mr. Crafard. No. It was a softer——
Mr. Hubert. So your remark that it was red and white was inadvertent, or do you really have any recollection?
Mr. Crafard. It would be an inadvertent remark.
Mr. Hubert. All right. Go on to the next picture and call off the identification mark when you speak of it.
Mr. Crafard. Exhibit B, it would be the girl in the middle in the striped dress.
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. In Exhibit C it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder in the striped dress. Exhibit D it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder with the striped dress. Exhibit E would be the girl in the middle with the striped dress.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize Ruby in all of these pictures, too?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I do.
Mr. Hubert. Who is the other girl?
Mr. Crafard. The other girl was one of the strippers in his club.
Mr. Hubert. What was her name?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr. Hubert. That girl you have identified in all those pictures as having the striped dress, that is the girl you are talking about whom Ruby used to take out socially?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And you don’t know her name?
Mr. Crafard. Could I say that other girl is Kathy Kay, I am definite of that after looking at her picture closer.
Mr. Hubert. The blond girl is Kathy Kay?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. So you want to change your opinion expressed a moment ago that it was Tammi True, is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Prior to the taking of this segment of the deposition dealing with the identification of these photos, I think you had looked at at least one of these photos and could not recognize the girl that you have now recognized as being the companion of Ruby.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. As being such. Then later you have come to the conclusion that it is the girl. Can you tell us why you have now come to the conclusion that it is the same girl?
Mr. Crafard. After looking at the whole group of pictures and the different angles of her head where you can see her features better, I came to the conclusion that is the girl.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, when you first expressed doubt as to whether it was, you were looking at one picture only?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And after having looked at all of those pictures, that is to say five of them as identified, you now are positive that that is the girl?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I understand you to say you had at least one occasion on which you actually had dinner with Jack and this girl is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Would it be fair to say you were in her company therefore and could see her at close range for a period of at least an hour on that occasion?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know who she is?
Mr. Crafard. I cannot recall her name, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I wish you would give some thought to what her name is before you leave so perhaps we can——
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to write her name down any place for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. I believe her name was wrote down, I believe her name was wrote down in the notebook.
Mr. Griffin. In the little notebook you were keeping for him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, what other friends did you note that Ruby had? You mentioned George Senator, and you have mentioned this girl who was in the striped dress in the Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E. Who else do you know?
Mr. Crafard. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Hubert. I think you have told us something about him.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who else?
Mr. Crafard. There was a couple of the comedians from some of the other clubs that came up to the club quite often.
Mr. Hubert. Who were they?
Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t know their names.
Mr. Hubert. Were there any others than those you have already mentioned?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can name; no, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How long were you at the club from the time you first went there until the time you left?
Mr. Crafard. Approximately 6 weeks to a month or 2 months.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any members of the Dallas police force there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us something about that.
Mr. Crafard. Well, the uniformed patrolman would come up every once in awhile in the evening and have coffee on the club.
Mr. Hubert. When you say on the club, you mean without paying for it?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr. Crafard. I on several occasions—I on several occasions served the coffee for them.
Mr. Hubert. Normally you would collect for that?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I mean normally you would collect from another patron.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t collect from the police?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Why?
Mr. Crafard. Jack told me to go ahead and they could have coffee whenever they wanted.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you did not ask any money for the coffee because you had been instructed not to by Jack?
Mr. Crafard. The girls had told me that they was allowed to do so.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember which girl?
Mr. Crafard. The waitresses.
Mr. Hubert. The waitresses?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Jack never did mention the subject to you?
Mr. Crafard. The only thing he ever mentioned was that the policemen went off duty, would come in there when they were off duty, got their drinks at a cut price.
Mr. Hubert. What was the cut price?
Mr. Crafard. The normal price was 60 cents, and they got them for 40 cents.
Mr. Hubert. That you say is when they were off duty?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any instructions as to what the price was to be when they came in on duty?
Mr. Crafard. There was no charge for the coffee, and none would drink anything other than coffee, to my knowledge, when they were on duty or maybe a Coke or—a glass of Coke or a glass of 7-Up.
Mr. Hubert. How did they identify themselves when they were off duty so that they got the cut rate?
Mr. Crafard. Well, most of them when they come in there, when they come to the door they got in the door free so they showed a card at the door, their identification at the door. And then it usually would be at the bar, the girls knew most of them that did come in there when they were off duty. Evidently I took it that Jack had introduced them as officers, and we had occasion one night to serve one of the gentlemen, we was talking, and one of the girls when I took over the bar from Andy, he had to leave early, and he told me this gentleman was a police officer. He said he only charged him 40 cents. So I had occasion to talk with them.
Mr. Hubert. Did you get to know any by sight?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I could—just when he walked in the door and say he was a police officer.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know any by name?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Did you see any of those policemen at the Ruby trial?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall it, sir.
Mr. Griffin. How many different policemen would you say came in to Ruby’s place during the period you were there?
Mr. Crafard. When they were off duty, to my knowledge, there was only about 4 or 5 of them would come in there, off duty, and it was usually the same ones that were on duty that would come in to have coffee, patrolmen. The others were usually plainclothesmen, detectives.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know what bureau any of them were attached to?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know whether there were any of them attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr. Crafard. No; not definitely.
Mr. Griffin. You have some thought that they were?
Mr. Crafard. You mentioned the juvenile bureau, it seems to me there was something mentioned about one of them being from the juvenile bureau or something.
Mr. Griffin. Is this something you read in the paper, or something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr. Crafard. No, something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby follow a pretty close routine of life insofar as his activities were concerned?
Mr. Crafard. For him, yes. His routine was for myself, or for any ordinary businessmen that I have known, any businessmen that I have known, would have been a real rough, hurry-scurry routine.
Mr. Hubert. Well, let’s take it timewise. For instance, you say he usually called you in the morning. Was that pretty routine?
Mr. Crafard. No; that varied.
Mr. Hubert. And I think you said that he came in usually sometime before noon.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was that pretty regular?
Mr. Crafard. Most of the time he would be in before noon, between 10:30 and 12 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. Then what would he do with the rest of the day?
Mr. Crafard. Well, he would be around the club for maybe anywhere from a half hour to 2 hours, then he would leave the club and I might not see him again until midnight.
Mr. Hubert. And then he stayed until the club closed?
Air. Crafard. When he came back to the club after the club opened he generally stayed until the club closed. On three or four occasions he stayed until the club closed and then he went over to the Vegas Club.
Mr. Hubert. Normally what would he do?
Mr. Crafard. He would go over to the Vegas Club and pick up the receipts for the day.
Mr. Hubert. And then what?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, go home maybe stop for a bite to eat.
Mr. Griffin. What would he do with the receipts?
Mr. Crafard. He would carry them home with him and the next day bring them back to the Carousel.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have a safe?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; he bought a safe while I was with him.
Mr. Griffin. When was that?
Mr. Crafard. It was about 2 weeks prior to the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. Griffin. How did he happen to come to buy that safe?
Mr. Crafard. Well, he was always carrying quite a bit of cash and he was always worried about having somebody rob him or something, and I guess he wanted, he finally made up his mind to buy a safe and he went down to buy a safe.
Mr. Griffin. Were you with him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I was with him when he purchased the safe.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where he went?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the name of the company.
Mr. Griffin. Whereabouts was it located?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see, it was a block and a half right straight behind the Carousel Club, but I can’t recall the name of the street.
Mr. Griffin. It would have been on Field?
Mr. Crafard. No, Commerce—Field is next to Commerce, I believe.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. It was the next block back.
Mr. Griffin. Was it a——
Mr. Crafard. It was a furniture, office furniture supply house.
Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, how big a safe was it that he bought?
Mr. Crafard. It was a wall safe, a floor safe.
Mr. Griffin. About how high would you say that it stood off the floor?
Mr. Crafard. About 18 inches tall. The common type that is poured in the cement in the floor.
Mr. Griffin. Was this poured in the cement?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Could somebody, if somebody had broken into the building, could they have carried this safe away?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir. The safe was in his office and the office was always locked and I was there all the time.
Mr. Griffin. But when you weren’t there, if somebody had gotten into the building, and had broken into the office, why they could have carried this out?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; they could have carried this out.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have the combination of the safe?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; Mr. Ruby and Andy was the only ones who had the combination.
Mr. Griffin. After he bought this safe did he use it to keep his money in?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge he only used it for the night receipts from the Carousel Club and Andy when he checked out if Jack wasn’t there, the safe had a compartment in the bottom they claimed was a burglarproof compartment in the bottom, had an envelope slot in it and he, would drop an envelope with the money in it.
Mr. Griffin. What would be done with the money at the end of the night? What would he do with the money?
Mr. Crafard. The next day Jack would take the money out and count it up.
Mr. Griffin. What would he do with it?
Mr. Crafard. He would put it in his pocket and go to the bank.
Mr. Griffin. Did he bank some place?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Where did he bank?
Mr. Crafard. I believe, it was the First National, but I am not positive of that.
Mr. Griffin. Did you actually go with him to the bank when he——
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not when he was banking the deposits.
Mr. Griffin. At the end of, on a typical week night, about how much money would he have left, would he have at the end of the night?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, a typical night would maybe be anywhere from a $100 to $500 or $600.
Mr. Griffin. Of course, he had more business on the weekends than he had during the week, didn’t he?
Mr. Crafard. Usually; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Just taking the nights Monday through Thursday, how much would he typically have on one of those nights?
Mr. Crafard. Between $100 and $300, I would say.
Mr. Hubert. That is gross, isn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. On a weekend night, on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night how much would he take in?
Mr. Crafard. Anywhere from $100 to maybe $1,000. Depending on the type of what was doing there.
Mr. Griffin. Were you there any nights that he took in $1,000?
Mr. Crafard. The most I have ever known him to take in was one weekend, Friday and Saturday night, I believe it was $1,400 for the 2 nights.
Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to know that?
Mr. Crafard. I would usually be around when they counted the money up, and that weekend, I believe Sunday we was talking and Andy said something about that is the most money they took in any weekend for the last year or something like that.
Mr. Griffin. Did he deal with any particular distributor of beer?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. What was the company that——
Mr. Crafard. He dealt with the different companies, one being the Pearl Beer, each different brand of beer had different distributors.
Mr. Griffin. Had its own distributors?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. How about liquor, did he buy hard liquor?
Mr. Crafard. No, there was no hard liquor sold in the club.
Mr. Griffin. So his only purchases were beer?
Mr. Crafard. Beer, coke and champagne.
Mr. Griffin. Who did he buy that from?
Mr. Crafard. Most of that was bought to my knowledge from the liquor store on the corner. I believe it was Segalis.
Mr. Griffin. How much champagne would he stock any one time?
Mr. Crafard. When he bought champagne he would usually buy a case of 12 bottles and it would usually average about two cases a week.
Mr. Griffin. Now, did they serve food?
Mr. Crafard. The only food we served was pizzas.
Mr. Griffin. Was pizzas?
Mr. Crafard. Pizzas.
Mr. Griffin. Were those made at the Carousel or were they sent out from those——
Mr. Crafard. We got those from Palumbo’s Pizza House. All you had to do was stick them in a warmer and warm them up.
Mr. Griffin. So his only expenses—tell me if you can think of any other expenses besides the one I recite here. He had the expenses of his entertainers, he had expenses for you and Andy Armstrong, he had rent and heat and light, and he had beer and pizza. Did he have any other expenses that you can think of?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I would say would be Carousel business expenses, no. He had a lot of sinking money into things all the time.
Mr. Griffin. What sort of things were those?
Mr. Crafard. Well, he was putting quite a bit of money into this twist board exerciser that he was promoting.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have any other promotions besides the twist board while you were with him?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall. He would buy records and he had to buy flashbulbs and film for the camera. He took Polaroid pictures every night, three of them each night.
Mr. Griffin. Three Polaroid pictures each night?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; we had one girl who was, I believe it was Tammi True, would get on the stage and she would get a guy up there with her on the stage and take a picture of them and give the picture of the man, that was the only photograph taken and that would go right to the man.
Mr. Griffin. Well, what other business, you say he was always sinking money into things.
Mr. Crafard. Well, he had the Vegas Club and from what I understand he was taking money from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel Club from what I understood which I never could figure out.
Mr. Griffin. Why couldn’t you figure that out?
Mr. Crafard. Well, we always made enough to clear our bills, the Carousel made enough to clear the bills.
Mr. Griffin. By the bills you include the salaries of the entertainers?
Mr. Crafard. Most of that, yes. He was paying pretty good salaries. These girls got anywhere from $300 to $400, maybe $400, $500 a week for their entertaining.
Mr. Griffin. They all didn’t get that much.
Mr. Crafard. The entertainers, got anywhere from $300 to $500, $600 average, different.
Mr. Griffin. Was that just the featured stripper or was that each stripper?
Mr. Crafard. Jada was there, I believe, she was drawing $700 a month and the other girls I think was drawing between $300 and $500, somewhere between $300 and $500.
Mr. Griffin. A month?
Mr. Crafard. A month.
Mr. Griffin. A month. How about “Little” Lynn when she came to work there, was she getting paid the same as the rest of them?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so, I am not sure. I don’t know what her wages were, I am not sure, positive about it.
Mr. Griffin. Other than the twist boards and the Carousel and the Vegas Club what other things was Jack putting money into?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge that is all he had. He never seemed to have any. He always claimed he was going broke all the time.
Mr. Griffin. Was he actually selling these twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. He had never had made any sales while I was with him.
Mr. Hubert. Before you get into this, let me finish up this financial operation. I don’t think you have mentioned what the waitresses got.
Mr. Crafard. The waitresses worked on tips.
Mr. Hubert. Purely? There was no expense in connection with that?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Armstrong got any salary?
Mr. Crafard. He got a salary.
Mr. Hubert. How much was it?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. I think he was drawing about $300 a month, I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. Then there was a man Howard, the maintenance man.
Mr. Crafard. Howard just got paid, whenever he worked he would get paid, I think a dollar an hour. He didn’t work all the time. He might only get 4 or 5 hours a week.
Mr. Griffin. How much would you estimate in a typical week Ruby took in?
Mr. Crafard. In a typical week it would be anywhere from one to three thousand.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know where these twist boards were manufactured?
Mr. Crafard. They were manufactured in Houston—Fort Worth, I mean.
Mr. Griffin. What was the name of the company?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the name of the company. I had it wrote down in my notebook but I don’t recall the name of it.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the name of a company called Plastolite Engineering?
Mr. Crafard. I remember something about it.
Mr. Griffin. But that wasn’t the name of the company that was manufacturing the twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. It might have been, I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. How was Jack trying to sell these twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. Like I say, he promoted them out at the fair—State Fair, and he had a couple of different stores promoting them, and he had——
Mr. Griffin. You mean they would be on display some place?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. And there was some set up, where some of the strippers went out to one place and done the twist on these twist exercisers.
Mr. Griffin. But to your knowledge he never made a sale on one?
Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Griffin. How much would one cost, if you wanted to buy it?
Mr. Crafard. The way he was selling them I believe it was two something. They were selling them in Texas but it was Penney’s, I believe it was Penney’s store was selling them.
Mr. Griffin. In Texas, you mean in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. In Dallas. They were selling them for $3.95 apiece, I think it was and he was selling his for $2.95 apiece.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack have anybody else associated with him in these twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. He was trying to get his one brother to do something with them, and I believe it was in Chicago.
Mr. Griffin. That would have been Hyman?
Mr. Crafard. How is that?
Mr. Griffin. That would have been Hyman in Chicago?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was “Hy,” yes.
Mr. Griffin. How do you know he was trying to get “Hy” interested in it?
Mr. Crafard. He had me send some to him.
Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you have testified to that you have been around carnivals and you have met a lot of people, and also I think you said that you form an impression of an individual pretty quickly and have found in your own experience you have only been wrong once, I think.
Mr. Crafard. I have been wrong twice that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. I would like you to tell us what your impression was of Ruby, and if you can, give us some factual examples and reasons, you know.
Mr. Crafard. Well, first he was a kind of a likable person. He was kind of impressable. I mean he impressed me somewhat. I had one instant feeling, I can’t recollect, more or less the way he talked and his actions that the man might be somewhat queer.
Mr. Hubert. When you say “queer” you mean what?
Mr. Crafard. As the general usage of the term.
Mr. Hubert. You mean homosexual?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What caused you to feel that?
Mr. Crafard. The way he talked and his general action.
Mr. Hubert. Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?
Mr. Crafard. More or less.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have a lisp?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.
Mr. Hubert. What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?
Mr. Crafard. Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have any activity——
Mr. Crafard. When I first met him.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?
Mr. Crafard. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.
Mr. Hubert. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have occasion to change that view?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?
Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.
Mr. Hubert. You heard about some, I suppose?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t. I never heard about any cases where he had.
Mr. Hubert. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?
Mr. Crafard. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.
Mr. Hubert. What was the name of that friend?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.
Mr. Hubert. It was not one of the owners?
Mr. Crafard. Just a worker.
Mr. Hubert. And he was not homosexual himself?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.
Mr. Hubert. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?
Mr. Crafard. I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you didn’t think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?
Mr. Crafard. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn’t.
Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don’t care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; he did.
Mr. Griffin. Which would those people be?
Mr. Crafard. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.
Mr. Griffin. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?
Mr. Crafard. More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It is kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven’t got the education to use the words.
Mr. Griffin. We don’t want it—we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don’t want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. Crafard. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.
Mr. Griffin. Well now, when you went into Jack’s apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?
Mr. Crafard. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.
Mr. Griffin. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn’t, for example?
Mr. Crafard. I only saw the bed in Jack’s room. The other bedroom the door was closed.
Mr. Griffin. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn’t all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.
Mr. Griffin. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.
Mr. Griffin. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort of——
Mr. Crafard. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn’t or taking care of clothes or things like that?
Mr. Crafard. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr. Crafard. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator—Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn’t have cooked or something, that—and it was something he didn’t do very often was cook. I can’t remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn’t cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.
Mr. Hubert. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Have you any other specifics to mention?
Mr. Crafard. That would be about the only thing I could think of.
Mr. Hubert. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?
Mr. Crafard. He had an erratic temper.
Mr. Hubert. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.
Mr. Crafard. You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.
Mr. Hubert. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.
Mr. Crafard. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the girls were supposed to work. They took nights off.
Mr. Hubert. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.
Mr. Crafard. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn’t show up, Jack never said a word.
Mr. Hubert. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his anger?
Mr. Crafard. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some “stupid.”
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack swear, use profanity?
Mr. Crafard. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually “hell” or “damn.”
Mr. Hubert. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw light upon his temper?
Mr. Crafard. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn’t work and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about it and he wasn’t the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning until he had left.
Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?
Mr. Crafard. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some of the stories.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the M.C., if you can.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the M.C.s name.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what period of time it was?
Mr. Crafard. Working for Jack when I went to work for him. He was working for Jack.
Mr. Hubert. How many M.C.s worked during that time?
Mr. Crafard. About three different M.C.s.
Mr. Hubert. This was the one who was working when you first went to work with it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that?
Mr. Crafard. He had quite a habit of telling racial jokes and Jack was pretty much against this and on several occasions he got pretty perturbed with the M.C. for telling the racial jokes.
Mr. Hubert. When you say pretty perturbed, you see that doesn’t tell us about what he did.
Mr. Crafard. To the point where he went in among the chairs right by the stage and was yelling at the M.C.
Mr. Hubert. So that he could be heard all over the club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. Very definitely.
Mr. Hubert. And yelling, by yelling you mean that his voice was raised above the normal?
Mr. Crafard. Very much so.
Mr. Hubert. What was he saying?
Mr. Crafard. Telling him, you know, “I don’t like that kind of jokes in here.” He said, stuff like that.
Mr. Hubert. What kind of jokes were they?
Mr. Crafard. Racial jokes.
Mr. Hubert. Well about what race?
Mr. Crafard. Colored people.
Mr. Hubert. About the colored people?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; Jack was against a racial joke of any type, very much so.
Mr. Hubert. Did you find that out from him or just from this occasion?
Mr. Crafard. From these different occasions like that.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ever tell you himself that he was?
Mr. Crafard. No; not personally, but from the way he acted on different occasions like that that would happen he would chew the M.C. out pretty good for telling the racial jokes and for some pretty vulgar jokes he told, on occasions.
Mr. Hubert. You mean he objected to vulgar jokes?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; he said that his objection was the club was no place for that real vulgar type of joke.
Mr. Hubert. By vulgar you mean a joke that dealt with sex?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; joke that would leave no doubt in a person’s mind that it was a sexual joke. Some of them that he told were just that type of joke.
Mr. Hubert. You mean abnormal sex?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. So what he objected to were jokes that had to do with abnormal sex, is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. Well, there was, I think on one or two occasions there was, the M.C. told jokes of an abnormal sex, but there was things that were real vulgar jokes where he was cussing a lot or something in a joke he didn’t care for too much. He don’t like the foul language used in the club very much.
Mr. Griffin. How about—these comedians must have told sexual jokes, didn’t they?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; that is one of the things that put a comedian over in that kind of a club; they are there to sell sex, and if they don’t tell a sexual joke the comedian is nothing.
Mr. Griffin. How do you distinguish for us between the kind of sexual jokes that Jack would be upset about and those he accepted?
Mr. Crafard. [Deleted.]
Mr. Hubert. Is that the type of joke that Ruby objected to?
Mr. Crafard. That type of joke would be acceptable because it leaves a person to figure out in his own mind what the deal is.
Mr. Griffin. What kind would be objectionable?
Mr. Crafard. [Deleted.]
Mr. Hubert. That would be an objectionable joke?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; because there would be no question in anybody’s mind.
Mr. Hubert. Is that a specific example, or one that you were using?
Mr. Crafard. An example; the joke was not told in the club.
Mr. Hubert. From what you have told us as a generalization it would seem to be this, that any joke that left it to the imagination of the listener would be all right with Jack, but if it was specific he objected to it.
Mr. Crafard. That is right. It was pretty well acceptable all over the country that way. You take even with a party joke. If a party joke leaves in a person’s mind in most places, leaves it to a person to imagine it themselves, it is acceptable. But if there isn’t any doubt it doesn’t make it acceptable in a mixed party.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, did you learn anything that would indicate whether Jack’s attitude about these jokes was based on any concern about what the local law-enforcement people would feel about having such jokes told in his club?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t—I can’t think of anything that would make me feel that way.
Mr. Hubert. Was it your impression of his being perturbed, as the way you put it, was sincere or possibly just part of the act?
Mr. Crafard. It seemed pretty sincere to me.
Mr. Hubert. He never did tell you, man to man, that he objected to these?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack tell any jokes himself?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall of any. I think a couple of times he got on the stage and tried to M.C. and fell sort of flat.
Mr. Griffin. How about privately; was Jack the kind of person who would joke and tell jokes?
Mr. Crafard. He never did that I know of.
Mr. Griffin. Was Jack the kind of person who would sit around with the comedians and talk with them in between acts and so forth?
Mr. Crafard. No; Jack was the kind that the only time he would say anything to the comedians was if he done something he didn’t like, and if Jack wanted the comedian to do something he would say something to him.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever notice any traits of physical violence in Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. The one time I noticed any traits of physical violence at all, there was a guy came to the club who was pretty well polluted, and I think Ralph Paul was sitting right near the door, and he started giving the doorman a bad time.
Mr. Hubert. Who started——
Mr. Crafard. This drunk fellow did.
Mr. Hubert. Ralph had to get him to leave?
Mr. Crafard. Ralph was sitting right there and he asked the gentleman to leave and he wouldn’t do it, and Jack went over there and the gentleman struck Ralph Paul and when he did Jack just pushed his arm down and pushed him out the door.
Mr. Hubert. He didn’t hit him?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you form any impression about Ralph Paul, as to whether Ralph Paul was a homosexual?
Mr. Crafard. No; Ralph was a pretty good, decent guy. I liked him, what little I did know of him. I like him. He was kind of a stuffed shirt, but he was a fair, likable guy.
Mr. Griffin. Did you notice if Jack’s club was visited by any people who would appear to you to be homosexuals?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t notice that. I can’t recall of any specific people coming in that would appear to be this way.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever talk to you about sex?
Mr. Crafard. No; very seldom; one or two occasions when I said something about a girl or something, when I said something about a girl or something.
Mr. Griffin. What was his interest in his dogs?
Mr. Crafard. Sheba was the only one that really meant a lot to him. He was like a lot of people who are alone, and get with animals.
Mr. Griffin. You mean he was attached to them?
Mr. Crafard. Really attached.
Mr. Griffin. To Sheba?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Did he breed Sheba?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. Sheba had been bred.
Mr. Griffin. Was this something that he did, or did he send her some place to be bred?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he took her to another place, another place to be bred; I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything, any experience you had which indicated he had any sexual interest in these dogs?
Mr. Crafard. No; I wouldn’t say so.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him try to sexually stimulate these dogs?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I ever saw.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear anything in that regard?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now the example you gave us about Ruby putting the man out at the club is the only one that you ever perceived as an act of physical violence?
Mr. Crafard. Where he actually used physical violence. I have seen him where he was close to it at another M.C. at one time. Threatened for him to go out or he would throw him out, which was something which occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.’s.
Mr. Hubert. Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?
Mr. Crafard. Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack’s just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.
Mr. Hubert. Jack walked away from that man?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You never saw him hit anybody?
Mr. Crafard. No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man’s hand and knocked it down.
Mr. Hubert. Was the comedian bigger than Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; bigger than Jack.
Mr. Hubert. Quite a bit bigger?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How about the patron that he handled?
Mr. Crafard. He was a bigger fellow. He stood about 6 foot. He is quite a bit bigger than I am, even. He was taller and heavier.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything about what Ruby did to keep in physical condition?
Mr. Crafard. I knew he worked with barbells quite a lot.
Mr. Hubert. How did you know that?
Mr. Crafard. He told me about his barbells a couple of times and he was dieting, and I had heard that he went to a gymnasium quite often.
Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to you to be a powerful man, considering his build and weight and size?
Mr. Crafard. For his type of build and flabbiness as he was, he had quite a bit of strength.
Mr. Hubert. How did you know that?
Mr. Crafard. Well——
Mr. Hubert. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which demonstrated the use of strength?
Mr. Crafard. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.
Mr. Hubert. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he was a pretty strong man, considering his size.
Mr. Crafard. Well, for as heavy a man as he was, he was pretty solid for one thing; he was fairly solid.
Mr. Hubert. You could tell that by looking at him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I suppose you have seen him with his coat off or something.
Mr. Crafard. I saw him with just his pants and a T-shirt on, or an undershirt and pants, on one occasion when I went to his house. He shaved and he said something and I stepped over to the bathroom door; I couldn’t hear. He repeated it and I stepped back and sat down and watched television and then he went ahead and got cleaned up.
Mr. Hubert. Did he carry a gun?
Mr. Crafard. He had one in the car. He very seldom carried it on his person.
Mr. Hubert. Where did he keep it in the car?
Mr. Crafard. Usually in the trunk; it was in a money pouch, a money sack, which usually stayed in the trunk.
Mr. Hubert. You say he didn’t carry it on his person?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see it on his person or know it was there in some way?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; one night that I knew for sure it was there.
Mr. Hubert. What night was that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the date, but something happened, and Jack sent me down to the car to get the gun and bring it up to him.
Mr. Griffin. Was there some trouble in the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember whether it was right in the Carousel or whether it was a phone call or what it was, really. There was something there——
Mr. Hubert. He told you something that indicated he ought to have the gun, and he asked you to go get it?
Mr. Crafard. He sent me down after the gun.
Mr. Hubert. Did he just simply send you down after the gun, or did he tell you that there was something that had happened?
Mr. Crafard. He sent me down after the gun. Something happened right there at the club. I can’t——
Mr. Hubert. Was it some sort of a disturbance?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall just what it was.
Mr. Griffin. Was this an incident that other people would have been aware of; Andy Armstrong might have been aware of?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Andy Armstrong was right there at the time. I believe most any of the girls who worked for him were aware of it at the time.
Mr. Hubert. Did I misunderstand you? Did you say this incident where you were sent for the gun was preceded by a phone call?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. He had been on the phone and then he went outside and then something happened at the club; he had an argument or something.
Mr. Griffin. What did he do after you brought the gun?
Mr. Crafard. He was right there and the club was closed and I didn’t see him until the next day. He seemed pretty angry.
Mr. Griffin. He didn’t try to throw anybody out?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Was George Senator there at the time?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember how close this incident was to the death of the President?
Mr. Crafard. It was either a week before or the same week, earlier the same week, that President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. Hubert. Was it a weekday?
Mr. Crafard. No. It was during the week.
Mr. Hubert. It was not on a weekend?
Mr. Crafard. No; it was during the week.
Mr. Hubert. So it would have been sometime between the 17th, say, of November and prior to the 22d, or it would have been sometime between the 11th and the 15th of November; is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever noticed any incidents of Ruby that would throw some light on whether he was a person who had a trait of kindness or benevolence toward other people?
Mr. Crafard. He was quite kindhearted.
Mr. Hubert. Give us an example of that.
Mr. Crafard. One example was the way he took me in. He had no reason for doing it. He wasn’t obligated to do it in any way.
Mr. Hubert. You think you earned your pay?
Mr. Crafard. What is that?
Mr. Hubert. Do you think you earned your pay?
Mr. Crafard. I think I earned everything I got.
Mr. Hubert. Do you still think it was an act of kindness on his part to take you in?
Mr. Crafard. I think he was doing me a favor, and still in all he was getting some pretty cheap work, labor.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ask him for the job or did he ask you?
Mr. Crafard. He asked me. And then I know of another occasion where I was told about of this young fellow he took in didn’t do a thing around the club and he had him around there for 3 or 4 months.
Mr. Griffin. Did it seem to you that Jack felt it was important that he have somebody at the club all the time?
Mr. Crafard. After I was there for a while he seemed to feel that way. At first, when I first got to know him, he didn’t seem to feel that way.
Mr. Hubert. This boy that had been there more or less doing the job that you did, but was there prior to you; did you know this fellow?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard—Andy had told me about him.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that you heard from Andy or otherwise there had been some trouble between Ruby and that man?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there was something said about trouble.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that you heard that Ruby pistol-whipped him?
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t recall of ever hearing that statement.
Mr. Hubert. Did you hear that this boy was Jewish?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir. I had no idea; no knowledge of him.
Mr. Hubert. You never met him?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. I understand that there came a time when you asked Jack to put you on a different pay basis than you originally were.
Mr. Crafard. When I went to work it was on the understanding that I eventually would be with him a Little while and then I would start being on a salary.
Mr. Griffin. How long were you with him? Well, let me put it this way: Did there come a time when you began to ask to be put on salary?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How long after?
Mr. Crafard. Because I felt that the way things were, I didn’t have any private life of my own. He wanted to tell me what I could do, who I could talk to, and who I couldn’t talk to if he put me on a salary where I was maybe making $35 or $40 a week I could live on my own, which I would much prefer to do.
Mr. Griffin. $35 or $40 plus the opportunity to live at the club?
Mr. Crafard. As long as it was $35 or $40, period. I could live on my own; for the work I done at the club, I could live on my own.
Mr. Griffin. All right. How long had you been with Jack before you started to ask him about this?
Mr. Crafard. I probably had been with him about 4 or 5 weeks. That was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. Griffin. What did Jack say when you mentioned that to him?
Mr. Crafard. He said he would see what he could do.
Mr. Griffin. What do you mean by that? What did you understand by that?
Mr. Crafard. Well, he said what he could do; he would figure his bookwork out and see what he could do.
Mr. Griffin. Did you remind him of the fact that he had told you that at the beginning?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)