TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. Griffin. I want to start out by stating for the record, for your purposes, also, Larry, that we are continuing this deposition under the same authority which it was commenced yesterday morning, and I know that there is no mistake on your part that the oath which you took before is still in effect.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. What we propose to do today is to go through in some detail some of the papers which have come into our possession. The first thing I want to ask you to look at is a notebook, which is a blue cover spiral notebook entitled, “Penway Memo Notebook” and it has Commission Document No. 717, but for the record I will clarify this that this is not the same number as the numbers that we are using in the deposition. I will give it a deposition number in just a minute. I am going to mark this for identification on the front cover—I am going to mark this on the inside of the front cover at the bottom in pen, “Washington, D.C., April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5202, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am going to sign it with my signature, Burt W. Griffin.
Mr. Hubert. For the purpose of the record, count the number of pages and half pages. Perhaps it is a good idea to initial the bottom of each page with your initials.
Mr. Griffin. All right. In addition to the front cover, what I am going to do is number the pages at the bottom, and I will put my initials on each. I will make it clear that I am numbering only the separate sheets of paper. I am not numbering each side of the paper. We can refer to these pages as the numbered side and the reverse side for purposes of discussion.
Mr. Hubert. Why don’t you have the record show that pages——
Mr. Griffin. Page 10 is a blank. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper which has been torn off and there is nothing written on that page. Page 14 is approximately a third of a sheet of paper, the bottom two thirds having been torn off, and it does contain penciled writing on it. Page 15 is a full sheet. Page 16 is approximately a half sheet with penciled writing on it. Page 17 is a full sheet. There is a total of 18 pages including half sheets and third sheets of paper in the notebook, and there is a blue hard cardboard front cover and a buff or dirty brown back cover which is also hard cardboard. Do we have photostatic copies of it?
Do you want to put that in the record?
Mr. Hubert. I just wanted to get them numbered the same way. We can do that later.
(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5202 for identification.)
Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Commission Exhibit 5202, and ask you, Larry, if you recognize that.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; this is a notebook I used to keep phone numbers when I was working for Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. Griffin. Did you buy that notebook yourself?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I bought this myself.
Mr. Griffin. And how soon after you went to work for Jack Ruby did you buy that?
Mr. Crafard. About a week after I went to work for him. You look real close on the front you will see my name on the front of it.
Mr. Griffin. And did you write that in there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Can you read what you see on there?
Mr. Crafard. C. L.—Larry Crafard, Carousel Club. Its got 1312½ Commerce Street, Dallas, Tex. It’s real vague on there.
Mr. Griffin. That is an impression that simply comes through as actually scratches on there and doesn’t come through in any color?
Mr. Crafard. No; it doesn’t come through in any color.
Mr. Griffin. Now, when you bought this book, did Jack Ruby give you any instructions with respect to maintaining the book?
Mr. Crafard. Just use it to put phone numbers down in, addresses of people that called in wanting to talk, called in, put the phone number down so I’d know how he could get in touch with them.
Mr. Griffin. Did the notations that appear in there follow any sequence either chronological or by topic or anything of that sort?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe they do, no.
Mr. Griffin. Would you want to take the time to look at it and see if you recognize any sequence in the entries?
Mr. Crafard. The first portion of the book on the first page is more or less numbers which was used quite frequently.
Mr. Griffin. You are referring to page 1?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; page 1.
Mr. Griffin. Now, do you want to look over on the back of page 1; the reverse side?
Mr. Crafard. It is also numbers that were used quite frequently.
Mr. Griffin. Now, look at page 2.
Mr. Crafard. Page 2, I believe, was an address on the top of page 2. It was an address that I wrote down for Mr. Ruby.
Mr. Griffin. What about the remaining entries on there. Were they numbers that were used frequently?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Do you want to look at the reverse side of page 2?
Mr. Crafard. There is only one number on there, on the reverse side of page 2 that we used very frequently. That was Little Lynn’s phone number.
Mr. Griffin. The front part of page 3?
Mr. Crafard. From the numbers on there, as far as I know, there was only one of them that was used very frequently. It was Mickey Ryan. On the reverse side is just more or less notations that were taken down from phone calls. Then on page 4 is just numbers that were taken down from phone calls. The first number on page 4, Norma Bennett, that was that one girl I was trying to tell you about yesterday.
Mr. Griffin. She was the waitress?
Mr. Crafard. No; she was the one I started saying about that Jack had tried to get to work as a stripper to get her to work for this friend of his, Ralph Paul.
Mr. Hubert. What you mean is that during your testimony yesterday you remembered her name as Norma but you did not remember her last name?
Mr. Crafard. I did not even remember her first name, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I thought you mentioned that her name was Norma.
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. Hubert. In any case, you now say that the person you were testifying about yesterday who tried to get work and who was ultimately placed at work by Ruby with Ralph Paul was Norma Bennett?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And the entry on page—what is it?
Mr. Crafard. Page 4.
Mr. Hubert. Refreshes your memory to that extent, right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 4 is just notations. No. 5 is just notations, with some things that Jack had to do on that day. Then the reverse side of 5 is just notations, phone calls. No. 6 is some draws that I took on different days. The reverse side of No. 6 is just notations, mostly for phone calls that was taken. No. 7 is just notations with the exception of the top number, the top name, Joe Roskydall, who was a friend of mine while I was previously living in Dallas.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, in the pages that you have gone through so far, have you noticed any handwriting in that book that is not your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. As you go through this, if you do recognize any handwriting that is not yours, would you point that out to us?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 7 there is just notations from phone calls. The bottom half of that page written in ink isn’t my handwriting.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize whose handwriting that is?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Are you able to recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. Griffin. Are you able to recognize Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I would recognize Andy’s writing.
Mr. Griffin. Does that appear to be Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you want to look at page 8?
Mr. Crafard. That is my writing on page 8. That is just phone numbers, addresses that was taken down that Jack Ruby give me to write down, addresses that he wanted to keep. On the reverse side of that is a couple of phone numbers. I don’t recall what they were for. Page 9 I don’t have any idea what that was for. I don’t recall it all.
Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting on page 9?
Mr. Crafard. It looks like my handwriting, yes. The reverse side of page 9 is blank. Page 10 is blank. A portion of a page, page 11, is blank.
Mr. Griffin. Page 11, incidentally, is a half sheet of paper. Do you recall in using this notebook whether you had occasion to rip out portions of the notebook?
Mr. Crafard. A couple of times I took a piece of paper and put a phone number on it for Jack. Page 12 is just a few notations for some things that I had to buy for myself. The reverse side of page 11 is——
Mr. Griffin. That is the reverse side of page 12?
Mr. Crafard. Page 12, yes; is just notations. Page 13 is a couple of notations.
Mr. Griffin. Page 13 is in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. This number in East Waco may not be mine. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. You are referring to what appears to be 3902——
Mr. Crafard. East Waco.
Mr. Griffin. East Waco, and that is written in pen?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I don’t recall I ever wrote it down, and it doesn’t look like my handwriting.
Mr. Hubert. Page 10?
Mr. Griffin. No; page 13.
Mr. Crafard. Page 13. The reverse side of that page is my handwriting. It is just notations. Page 14 is some notations I took while I was trying to make arrangement to ship a dog to California. It is about a third of a page.
Mr. Griffin. Can you read page 14 for us? It is a little difficult to read.
Mr. Crafard. I’m not even sure what it is, myself. I can make out the name Frank Fisher underneath, but that is all. I believe the rest of it is something, Boeing Insurance it looks like.
Mr. Hubert. How is it spelled?
Mr. Crafard. B-o-e-i-n-g. The reverse side of page 14 is just notations. 15 is just notations. I don’t remember the bottom portion of that number wrote in dark blue ink.
Mr. Griffin. It begins with “WE-7-3037”?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What page?
Mr. Crafard. Page 15.
Mr. Griffin. Then there are three more lines which appear to read on one line, “063” on the next line “Herman” printed, and the letters “Flore” and then those are crossed out and written above it in longhand is the word “flowers”. And then directly under “Herman Flowers” is in longhand “from Wax-a-hatchy.” Do I understand that you do not recognize that writing, for example, “from Wax-a-hatchy”, as being in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. “Wax-a-hatchy”, I believe, is my handwriting. The rest of it I don’t recognize. On the reverse side of that is figuring. That is definitely not mine. Page 16 is just notations. That is about 2/3 of a page. The reverse side of that page is just notations, people calling in wanting reservations. Page 17 is just notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of page 17 is just notations. Page 18 is just notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of that is just notations.
Mr. Griffin. With the exception of the pages in that book which you have indicated are blank, every page in the book is filled, which means that there are only a total of 18 pages in the book altogether. Do you recall from looking at this notebook whether when you bought the notebook it had more pages in it than appear to be there now?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it did have. I’m not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall ripping out any of the pages?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall ripping out any full pages; no, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether in making the entries in that book you used pages in a consecutive fashion or whether you made entries on pages at random so that there would be many blank pages interspersed among pages that had writing on them?
Mr. Crafard. Most of it, I believe, was—from the first portion of the book, from the front to the back was pretty well in rotation. If I turn it over to the back and maybe flip over four or five pages and make a notation in it, as I recall.
Mr. Griffin. Do you mean by that that you would leave some blank pages at the back?
Mr. Crafard. As I recall, there was blank pages left spaced in the back.
Mr. Griffin. So your testimony would be that the book as you see it now is not in the same condition as it was in when you left Dallas on the 23d of November?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. Is there anything else about that book which appears to be different from the way that you remember it when you left Dallas on the 23d?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can notice.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any general questions, Mr. Hubert, that you want to ask about the book?
Mr. Hubert. Yes; I would like to. What was the purpose of keeping that book?
Mr. Crafard. I used it, Jack would get calls he wanted to keep the number of and I’d write the number down in this book and later transfer to another book, and then I would use it if a phone call come in somebody wanting to talk to Jack I’d put the number down where he could get in touch with them at so I could give him the number to call.
Mr. Hubert. I think you testified that the first three or four pages were made when you first bought the book?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And were in fact numbers that you knew or he told you would be frequently called, is that right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; the first two pages on both sides.
Mr. Hubert. He gave you those numbers?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you were to keep the book in order to advise him currently, that is to say, daily, of the calls and messages and so forth that came in?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. I suggest to you, therefore, that that book, in order to serve the purpose that you stated, it was being kept for, would have been used by making the entries in sequence as they came up and not skipping around?
Mr. Crafard. I used the front of the book for numbers that Jack give me that he wanted to keep. Then I’d use the back of the book for people that called in for reservations at the club or he’d give me some numbers he wanted to use right then, but he wouldn’t want to keep them, or something of this sort.
Mr. Hubert. My point is that when you first started to use the book did you just put the first series of entries other than those numbers that were frequently called just at random on any page, or would you put it in the next available page?
Mr. Crafard. It would usually be on the next page. Sometimes I would skip maybe two or three pages.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any reason for doing that?
Mr. Crafard. I’d want to have the pages there, a couple of blank pages there, like this one here which should have been torn out. I don’t know why I didn’t.
Mr. Hubert. What page are you referring to?
Mr. Crafard. The reverse side of page 12. It is a list of some sandwiches I went out and got for a couple of the girls that worked at the club.
Mr. Hubert. Are you suggesting to us that the book served several functions and that there were different portions of it for each function?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. I think you said that the back of each page was used for the function of putting down reservations.
Mr. Crafard. I might use two or three pages right in a row for that, or I might take a page right out of the middle of the book.
Mr. Hubert. And leave it in the book?
Mr. Crafard. Usually I tore the page out. The pages I transferred over and when I got the book full I’d just throw the book away and get another book.
Mr. Hubert. Which book are you talking of?
Mr. Crafard. These notebooks like this.
Mr. Hubert. You had more than one?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I had one other notebook similar to this, the same type of a notebook as this.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what you did with that notebook?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr. Hubert. I thought you testified that this was the one that you started off with.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. There was another one that you bought later?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. I used it quite frequently. I’d tear the pages out and write down the reservations a lot, most of the time. I had this book and when I started putting reservations down I thought I’d get another book and use it for that and then I’d have this one just for the phone numbers and I wouldn’t mess up the reservations.
Mr. Hubert. Then the other book, when it was used up, as it were, was thrown away?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you have been through it. What we want to find out is if there is any way that one can tell by looking at the book about the date when any particular entry was made.
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Are you saying that you skipped around arbitrarily?
Mr. Crafard. It might be 2 or 3 days before I’d put anything down in this book in a row, maybe. Personally, I couldn’t say anything about the dates when I made the entries.
Mr. Hubert. Suppose that you hadn’t used the book for a couple of days and then you found occasion to make an entry. Would you make that entry right following the last one you had made or would you make it at some other page?
Mr. Crafard. Several times I would flip over in the book to the next empty page, put down an entry, and later I’d take the first few pages that I had left out, left where I could and there would be a number Jack would want to keep and I’d write the number down. These numbers on the first couple of pages here, I think the first page is all numbers that I got the first day and then the others is numbers I added to it later.
Mr. Hubert. Then are we to understand that there is no possibility of determining the sequence of events recorded in that book by referring to the order in which they appear in the book?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, an entry on one of the later pages might have been made prior to the one on the earlier page?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. When you testified, Larry, that you would sometimes flip the book over and make entries on the back of the pages, and as you have just done in front of us, you have turned the book over on its face to the back of the book. Do I understand your testimony to mean, then, that you worked, for some of your notations you worked backward?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. From the back of the book?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. But am I correct in understanding that the pages in the front of the book which have writing on the back side of the numbered page were not entries that were made in this fashion that we have just been describing but followed in the ordinary sequence that you would have made in working from the front of the book?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. The first two pages in the book, as I stated before, are numbers that he wanted to keep. I would fill the front of the page and then turn the page over and fill the reverse side of that same page.
Mr. Griffin. Now, as you go through there, would you leaf through those pages from one on, and tell us what the first page is that you recognize that wasn’t made by working from the front of the book and filling in sequence the back of the page after you had filled the front?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it would be page No. 4.
Mr. Griffin. And the back of page 4 has entries on it which might have been made because you were working from the back of the book forward?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, I believe so. I believe that is where I made those.
Mr. Griffin. You also explained to Mr. Hubert that you would transfer some of the entries from that book into another notebook.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Would you describe the other notebook for us?
Mr. Crafard. It was a Penway notebook, but it was a larger notebook. It was a memo pad, I believe is what it was. Was wide enough that it had a dividing line down the middle of the page, a red dividing line down the middle of the page.
Mr. Griffin. Who purchased that notebook?
Mr. Crafard. I did.
Mr. Griffin. And how long after you purchased this small Exhibit 5202 did you purchase the notebook that you have just been describing?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 3 or 4 days later.
Mr. Griffin. Where was that book kept physically?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly on Jack’s desk.
Mr. Griffin. Did you leave that notebook at the Carousel when you left?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Were there any entries that were made in that notebook which were entered directly into that notebook without being placed in some other notebook first?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there were a few in the last couple or few pages in the notebook.
Mr. Griffin. The entries that were in this larger Penway notebook which you have been describing, did they include all of the telephone numbers that are in this small Penway notebook which we have before us?
Mr. Crafard. No, not all of the numbers. There were numbers—the numbers that Jack wanted to keep and used quite frequently.
I believe all of the numbers on both sides of the first two pages were in that book along with some other numbers that he had given me that he wanted to keep that I wrote down there in the front.
Mr. Griffin. Were all the numbers that were placed in the large Penway notebook placed there at Jack’s instructions or did you place some of them in there on your own initiative?
Mr. Crafard. It was numbers that Jack wanted to keep and he asked me to write down, he had asked me to get another book and write them down in it so he could have them.
Mr. Griffin. Up to the time that you bought this larger Penway notebook, had Jack been maintaining a notebook?
Mr. Crafard. Very seldom that he used a notebook. He had a book full of numbers he very seldom used it.
Mr. Griffin. Where did he keep that book of phone numbers?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he had one on his desk.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what kind of a book that was?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a regular phone number and address book.
Mr. Griffin. Do you think you would recognize that book if it were shown to you again?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, do you recall at this point if there were other entries in this small Penway notebook which you have identified as 5202 which you do not see in there now?
Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t say definitely that there was; no, sir.
Mr. Griffin. I want to refer now to the inside of the front cover. At the top of the inside of the front cover there is a number which appears to be “261-TA3-8101.”
Is that the way you would read that number?
Mr. Crafard. I would read it 261-7A3-8101.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t sir.
Mr. Griffin. Now, can you tell us what the number is underneath that? Read it for the record.
Mr. Crafard. FE 5-3366.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. There is a number under that, 612. Do you have any idea what connection that has?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Do you see the name “Jeff,” which is written under 612?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know who that might refer to?
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t recall who it was.
Mr. Griffin. What is the next number under Jeff?
Mr. Crafard. TA 1-1782.
Mr. Griffin. That “T” is written the same as what you thought was a No. 7?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. In 261——
Mr. Crafard. Just a second. Half the time I’ve got to figure it out, myself.
Yes, that would be TA there, too.
Mr. Griffin. And that is your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. I take it what you are indicating is that you have a tendency to make your “T’s” look like “7’s.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize this number TA 1-1782?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t sir.
Mr. Griffin. Now, on the top of page 1 there is some sort of a word written.
Mr. Crafard. The word “save.”
Mr. Griffin. What is the significance of that?
Mr. Crafard. That I want to save that piece of paper, that particular sheet of paper, that I don’t want to destroy it.
Mr. Griffin. I take it that the notation “Vegas Club” with its number under it is the telephone number of the Vegas Club.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And the next number is written “Jack’s home” and under that “Whitehall 15601.”
That is Jack Ruby’s telephone number at home?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now, tell us what this next notation “Buddy” Fort Worth——
Mr. Crafard. Buddy, Fort Worth, phone No. AX 3-0118 with the words “twist board” underneath it is the fact that this Buddy was a gentleman Jack called in reference to the twist board. I believe that is one of the gentlemen had something to do with making the twist boards in Fort Worth.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what Buddy’s last name was?
Mr. Crafard. I’m not positive. I believe it was Buddy Heard.
Mr. Hubert. What was your understanding as to Buddy Heard’s connections to the twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that he had something to do with the production of the twist board in Fort Worth.
Mr. Hubert. What leads you to believe that?
Mr. Crafard. Because of the way it is set up here, he give me the number, he give me the twist boards. It was something to do with either the production or the selling of the twist boards.
Mr. Hubert. Now, there is a line, rather a vacant space under “twist boards.”
I would just as soon that you not make entries in the book.
After that blank line there is some writing “Fort Worth” and some other things that follow.
Would you read that into the record, and then tell us what the significance of that is?
Mr. Crafard. It would be the word “Fort Worth” phone No. “ED-51266” with a dash, and the words “give to Mike Shore only.” That would be a number where Jack Ruby could be reached and he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike Shore.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know why he didn’t want to give it to anyone but Mike Shore?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Hubert. Was Mike Shore a person that Ruby dealt with regularly?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he talked to Mike Shore two or three times a week on the telephone.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever have occasion to meet Mike Shore?
Mr. Crafard. I’m not sure, sir. I believe he was in the club. I’m not positive.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever have occasion to meet Buddy Heard?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall where Mike Shore lived?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you to state again what this entry in connection with Mike Shore pertained to?
Mr. Crafard. The number would be a number where Jack Ruby could be reached but he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike Shore.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever call that number, ED-51266?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was the number ED-51266 entered into this book the first day that you got the book?
Mr. Crafard. It was within the first 2 or 3 days, I’m positive of that.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby at that number?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall. I don’t remember making a call at that number.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack say anything to you which would indicate how often he visited the premises that that telephone number was located at?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have a specific recollection of the conversation that you had with Jack which resulted in making this entry in the book?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was over the telephone, and he called in, and I believe I said something about Mike Shore had called wanting to talk to him, and he give me that number and told me to give it to Mike Shore only.
Mr. Griffin. Did he indicate whether he would be at that number only that day or for a short period of time, or whether he could be reached there every day, or what?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was just a couple hours that day.
Mr. Griffin. Now, under the name “Mike Shore only” there is another line which has no writing on it, and then there is an entry “St. Charles FL 7-0520.” What is the significance of that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe the name St. Charles is the last name of a gentleman that Jack Ruby knew, but I don’t recall ever meeting the gentleman or ever calling him to talk to.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how that entry came to be put in the book?
Mr. Crafard. No, other than the fact that Jack give me the number. I believe there is reference to that same number further on in the book.
Mr. Griffin. Perhaps when we get to it we can discuss it at that point.
Mr. Crafard. All right.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to turn over page one then.
There are no further entries on page one, are there?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. And we will look at the reverse side of page one.
Now, there is a name written here “Abe”——
Mr. Crafard. Klinman.
Mr. Griffin. How is that spelled?
Mr. Crafard. K-l-i-n-m-a-n.
Mr. Griffin. Who is Abe Klinman?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know what his position was or what he done for a living, but I believe I met him at the club.
Mr. Griffin. Was he a local Dallas citizen?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Griffin. Was this somebody that Jack dealt with regularly?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. Four or five different times that I know of Abe called the club, and several times that Jack called Abe.
Mr. Griffin. There is a telephone number under there, “RI 8——”
Mr. Crafard. “4272.”
Mr. Griffin. Is that Abe Klinman’s?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. On the next line there is something written in there.
Mr. Crafard. The word “personal,” the letters “UN,” that is a telephone No. “UN-3-0400.”
Mr. Griffin. Whose number is that?
Mr. Crafard. Mr. Earl Ruby’s in Detroit, that is his home phone number.
Mr. Griffin. While you were at the Carousel, do you recall Jack’s ever telephoning Earl Ruby or Earl Ruby ever telephoning Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Jack phoned Earl two or three different times. I don’t recall Earl phoning Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall why it was Jack called Earl?
Mr. Crafard. In connection—the one time that I can really recall was in connection with the twist boards.
Mr. Griffin. How soon was that after you went to work for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that would have been about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. And what do you recall about that telephone call?
Mr. Crafard. Just the fact that he told Earl about the twist boards, and he told him he’d send him a couple of them and some of the advertisement he had on them, so he could promote them a little bit up Detroit.
Mr. Griffin. Did you overhear this telephone conversation?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; there was something said about how they was doing there, how they was selling there in Dallas, and the fact that Jack thought that they would really go over pretty good up in Detroit, Chicago, and in that area.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is a number under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” is written under “personal UN-3400” and under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” there are some other notations. Would you indicate what those are?
Mr. Crafard. It would be the No. 313 would be a code number, I believe, for Detroit. The phone No. “UN 3-5590” which would be the business number for Earl Ruby, and the words “Cobo Laundry” with the address “18135 Livernoise Avenue,” Livernoise Street.
Mr. Griffin. May I point out for the record that Livernoise is written on two lines along the right-hand side of the page under the line which says “Cobo Laundry 18135” on it, and it is bracketed off from a notation, which is “Ed Pullman” and on the next line “TA-34484.”
Do you recognize the name Ed Pullman?
Mr. Crafard. He was a gentleman there in Dallas, I believe, that Jack called several times.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know what his dealings were with Ed Pullman?
Mr. Crafard. No, I do not.
Mr. Griffin. There is a line under that telephone number, “UN-3” and then “UN-3” is scratched out and then on the following line there is a name written. What is that name?
Mr. Crafard. Leona Miller.
Mr. Griffin. Who was she?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she was a girl that called in connection with or in answer to an ad that Jack Ruby had in the paper for waitresses.
Mr. Griffin. So this entry, “Leona Miller” would not represent somebody whom Jack called regularly?
Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. Griffin. It doesn’t really go with the group of numbers then that we have been talking about which were sort of permanent numbers?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. How about Ed Pullman though. Would he fall in this category of people that Jack called regularly?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now there is a telephone number under the name Leona Miller, and then there is a blank line, and there is something written on the next three lines. What is that on the next three lines?
Mr. Crafard. Clark Dotty, I believe it is, D-o-t-t-y.
Mr. Griffin. And the telephone number.
Mr. Crafard. WH 1-1227.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the name Clark Dotty?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t; sir.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the reverse side of page one does it not?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Just before you finish that, let me ask you this. I notice that there is apparently the name Clark Dotty written out at the bottom of page one or the reverse of page one, and when it is written the first time the word “Clark” seems to be written and scratched through and then Clark Dotty is written again under its number.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Are both of those entries in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us why you wrote it twice?
Mr. Crafard. About the only reason I can see here would be the fact that when I wrote it the first time instead of the name Clark I put some other name down. Then I wrote over it and I couldn’t make it out so I wrote the name Clark Dotty underneath it.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, do you recognize the name Mary Ray?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet Ed Pullman’s wife?
Mr. Crafard. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Not that I can recall I should say.
Mr. Griffin. On the top of page 2 there is an entry. Mar-Din Co. underneath that the name Henry Denture. The address 404 South Well, Chicago 7, Ill. Phone number HA 7-3172. Do you remember how that entry came to be made in the book?
Mr. Crafard. It was the number, if I can recall right, Clark called in connection with the Earl Products Co. There is a company that I believe Jack said this Mr. Denture and himself had been partners in one time in Chicago. The company had went broke but they still had the papers and everything on the company. It had never been dissolved. He was using this as a name to sell the twist boards under, the Earl Products Co.
Mr. Griffin. Other than contacting Henry Denture at the Mar-Din Co., do you know of any other dealings that Jack had with Mar-Din?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; that I remember.
Mr. Griffin. Is it your understanding that Henry Denture was involved with Jack in the sale of twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. What makes you have that understanding?
Mr. Crafard. Jack give me that understanding when he give me this Earl Products Co. number, this number so I could call the Earl Products Co.
Mr. Griffin. You mean the Earl Products Co. was at the same address and number as this Mar-Din Co.?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; from what I remember.
Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on this?
Mr. Hubert. I understood you to say that Jack wanted to communicate to the Earl Products Co. the fact that Mar-Din and Henry Denture would be associated with the twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 5202, I take it that the first six entries starting with Mar-Din Co. and ending with Earl Products all relate to the same thing, is that right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And were all entered about the same time?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I am not clear just what the significance is and I wish you’d state it again.
Mr. Crafard. This Henry Denture, he called, he said it had been checked with him in this Earl Products before in Chicago and he was using the Earl Products Co. as a name to sell the twist boards under.
Mr. Hubert. Henry Denture was?
Mr. Crafard. Jack Ruby was, and he called Henry Denture in Chicago about the twist boards.
Mr. Hubert. Did you overhear the call?
Mr. Crafard. I was there when he made the call. I don’t recall just exactly what was said but it was something about the twist boards.
Mr. Hubert. And he called a man called Henry Denture?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you why he wanted you to make this entry?
Mr. Crafard. It was just a number he wanted to keep.
Mr. Hubert. All right.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, could the name Henry Denture be a mistake? Could the last name really have been Kenter?
Mr. Crafard. It could have been; yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Why do you say that?
Mr. Crafard. It is quite similar and I could have made a mistake and put a “D” down in place of a “K.”
Mr. Griffin. Now after the entry Earl Products Co., there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there are two names. What are those two names?
Mr. Crafard. Doris Land and Peggy Taylor.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall either of those two girls?
Mr. Crafard. I believe they were girls who called in answer to the ad that Jack was running in the paper.
Mr. Griffin. And the telephone number TA 4-6895?
Mr. Crafard. Would be the number where they could be reached at.
Mr. Griffin. Now under that there is the name Teddy Walters, and Teddy is written in longhand and Walters is printed. Are both of those your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Now do you recall who Teddy Walters was?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Griffin. And there is a telephone number under that. What is that telephone number?
Mr. Crafard. FE 7-4644.
Mr. Griffin. There is an entry under that which looks like A. F. McKnight, with a telephone number LA 6-2251. Do you remember anything about A. F. McKnight?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Jack called, had a conversation with him a couple of times on the telephone. Other than that I can’t recall anything.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what those conversations were about?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 2 on the front side.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to turn the page over and ask you to look at the back of page 2. Now there is a number WH 2-2371. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; it doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. And that is written in pen and then there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is the entry Riverside 7-2362 Earl Products Co. How did that entry come to be put down?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was a local number Jack had me put down for the Earl Products Co. If I recall right that was the pay telephone of the Carousel Club, and anybody, he said if anybody called the Carousel Club asking about this Earl Products Co. or anything about that, to give them this number to call.
Mr. Griffin. So Jack didn’t want the Earl Products number to be associated with his personal phone at the club?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. Now was there a personal phone at the club?
Mr. Crafard. Just a business phone, sir.
Mr. Griffin. A business phone. What was the number on that business phone?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Was it the same number as on his home phone?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; can I go back a little bit on this?
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. Going back to page 2 starting with the Mar-Din Co., the number below that I believe, the HA 7-3172 if I remember right it seems to me that this number and the address were different. It seems to me this number was either a Fort Worth or a Dallas number, and this address up here was just an address where I sent something, or something of that sort.
Mr. Griffin. I see.
Mr. Crafard. I was thinking about that and it kind of didn’t——
Mr. Griffin. You don’t think the HA number is a Chicago number?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I believe that is either a Dallas or a Fort Worth number after I think about it a little bit.
Mr. Griffin. You are clear that there were two different telephones at the Carousel Club. One was a pay phone and the other was a business phone?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Is it possible that the Riverside number was the business phone number?
Mr. Crafard. It could have been; yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. There is an entry, there is rather a line with nothing written on it after the entry Earl Products Co., and then there is a name and address and some numbers written; what is that?
Mr. Crafard. Bill DeMar, Wichita, Kans. The telephone number JA 4-4241. The telephone number JA 8-6116. Bill DeMar was a comedian that Ruby had hired to come down to the club, and these are the numbers where he could be reached. I believe one was a motel number and one was a business number or something of that sort. I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. The entries in connection with Earl Products Co. and Bill DeMar are all written in pencil.
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Griffin. And I want to ask you if these would have followed in sequence or whether you were making these entries in there because they were entries which were to be kept or sort of on a permanent basis?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe they follow sequence, I don’t believe the number of Bill DeMar, numbers would be anything we would keep on a permanent basis as far as I can recall.
Mr. Griffin. But you also don’t think that Bill DeMar called shortly after or that number was given to you shortly after the Earl Products number was given to you so that the two of them were made at roughly the same time?
Mr. Crafard. I am not positive of that, sir. They could have been.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you about Bill DeMar. Did Jack have any business with Bill DeMar other than to hire him as an entertainer?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I know, no.
Mr. Griffin. After the entries in connection with Bill DeMar, there is a line on which nothing is written, and then there is an entry Little Lynn OP 34, and then 817—JE 4-8525. Do you remember making that entry?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember approximately when that entry was made?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I couldn’t say for dates. It was made about I believe 2 or 3 days before Jack hired Little Lynn.
Mr. Griffin. And how did that call happen to come in?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember how it come about, but he give me the number so he could have it to call Little Lynn.
Mr. Griffin. Jack gave you that number or did you answer the telephone and get that number from a long distance operator?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Jack gave me the number. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Now, after that there are some entries. Some figures written on the next two lines. Can you tell us what those numbers are?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t know what they mean. There is the number 875, and number 1750. It seems like a hyphen behind the numbers with a dash, and a three behind that.
Mr. Griffin. You haven’t any recollection what that might relate to?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the reverse side of page 2.
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to turn over to page 3. What is the name written at the top?
Mr. Crafard. The top line is “See Paul Lubeachick.”
Mr. Griffin. How does he spell that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that is L-u-b-e-a-c-h-i-c-k, I believe. On the next line is “Here at 9:30.” That would be that Paul Lubeachick was going to be at the club at 9:30 and wouldn’t be able to be there too long and he wanted to see Jack and I was to tell Jack when he called on the phone.
Mr. Griffin. The next entry is also an entry for Bill DeMar.
Mr. Crafard. It is Bill DeMar, Evansville, 824 West Idewild Drive, HA 3-7245, and I believe that was Bill DeMar’s home address; I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Now there is an entry in pen which follows that. What is that entry?
Mr. Crafard. Ruth Shay, Inwood Road, FL 2-5494.
Mr. Griffin. Who is Ruth Shay?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she was a girl called in connection with the ad that Jack ran in the paper.
Mr. Griffin. Was she ever hired?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Now there is a line and the name Mickey Ryan with a telephone number.
Mr. Crafard. Mickey Ryan, DA 4-4378.
Mr. Griffin. Was that a number that was put in there for permanent reference.
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was his home number.
Mr. Griffin. How often did you see Mickey Ryan?
Mr. Crafard. I have saw Mickey Ryan probably about eight or nine times while I was working for Jack. Excuse me please.
Mr. Griffin. Sure.
Mr. Crafard. It seems to me that number should have been on the first couple of pages that wrote down, but it seems like I transferred the number to the front of the book after I wrote the number down.
Mr. Griffin. The Mickey Ryan number?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Mickey Ryan’s name and number are something that Jack would keep on a permanent basis?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Did Mickey come at any particular time of the day or night?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; he’d come in sometimes in the afternoon for a little while and then maybe he would be in in the evening.
Mr. Griffin. And would he visit with other people in the club besides Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Sometimes Jack wouldn’t even be at the club. He’d come in and talk to Andrew and I, and just visit.
Mr. Griffin. These eight or nine times that you saw him, were they spread out over the entire period that you worked there or was it just in one particular brief period that he came in?
Mr. Crafard. Over the entire period of time I was working for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall the first time that you met Mickey Ryan?
Mr. Crafard. I’m not clear. No, sir; I don’t recall exactly when I met him.
Mr. Griffin. Tell us about the first time that you do recall meeting Mickey Ryan and what happened.
Mr. Crafard. The first time I really remember talking to Mickey at the club I believe he came in one afternoon and I was in the club. There was a letter that had come for Mickey Ryan to the club and I gave that to him.
Mr. Griffin. Did anybody else receive mail at the club besides Mickey Ryan?
Mr. Crafard. There was two or three people that had worked at the club previously that had mail sent to the club after they left.
Mr. Griffin. Did Mickey have anything to do with the sale of twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr. Griffin. What was Mickey’s relationship with Jack?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I know they were just friends.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have any view about Mickey as to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr. Crafard. Mickey seemed to be pretty decent guy. As far as I could figure there was nothing of that sort there.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever learn how Mickey met Jack?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t.
Mr. Griffin. Did Mickey have any kind of business dealings with Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Griffin. You mentioned that Jack had a bookkeeper.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what his name was?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. But that wasn’t Mickey Ryan?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Was that a friend of Mickey Ryan’s?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, sir. It might have been.
Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what Mickey Ryan’s occupation was?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I knew, sir, he was a bartender.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Crafard. It was a club called there a couple of days, a couple of different times asking for Mickey. I believe it was at the Gun Club where he went to work. When I first met him he was unemployed and then he went to work afterwards.
Mr. Hubert. It was your impression that he went to work as a bartender at the Gun Club.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You formed that impression from what he told you?
Mr. Crafard. When they called they called asking for him and they said they wanted him in reference to a job, and he said he was trying to get a job as a bartender.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember his having told you that he had gotten the job?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that is the reason I formed the impression that he had been a bartender.
Mr. Hubert. He told you so.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I want to go back to that top entry on page 3 “see Paul”——
Mr. Griffin. Let me finish up on Mickey Ryan a second. Do you know what kind of a club this Gun Club was?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I had never been there.
Mr. Griffin. Was it just a bar or was it a place where people went to shoot skeet or trap or something like that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, sir. I believe the call came in as the Hunt Club or something like that or Hunter’s Club or something of that sort, the call came in.
Mr. Griffin. So you are not sure that the name of the club is the Gun Club?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. And do you have any idea where that club is located?
Mr. Crafard. It is near Dallas somewhere but that is all I know.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know if it is in downtown Dallas or in the outskirts or what?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was on the outskirts of Dallas.
Mr. Griffin. Would this have been a country club, a golf club of some sort?
Mr. Crafard. It might have been; yes.
Mr. Griffin. All right, I am finished with that.
Mr. Hubert. Going to the top of page 3 that entry “See Paul Lubeachick here at 9:30.” I think you added something to that entry to the effect that that entry meant that that man was going to be there at 9:30?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. The part you added was that he couldn’t stay very long.
Mr. Crafard. That is the impression that I had when I talked to him, sir. He said something about——
Mr. Hubert. You have a distinct recollection therefore of that particular episode and that man?
Mr. Crafard. Of the call coming in; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was it a call?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. The man gave you that name and said that he would be there at 9:30?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. But that he could not wait very long?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was something like the fact that he would be there at 9:30 and he wanted to see Jack, that he couldn’t stay there for any length of time.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall whether he came in at 9:30?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall, sir. After the club opened I was too busy to notice who came in.
Mr. Hubert. With an entry of that nature isn’t it fair to say that you would have conveyed that information in its totality to Jack?
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you would have told him not merely that the man was coming in at 9:30 but that he had said he couldn’t wait very long.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall having done so?
Mr. Crafard. I’m not positive, sir. I don’t recall it clearly.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever at any time after that see a man named Paul Lubeachick?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Hubert. But you do remember that you told Jack he couldn’t wait very long?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember Jack’s reaction to that?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. I believe Mickey Ryan and a telephone number under there is the last entry on page 3.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to turn over page 3 to the back. There is the name Stanley Kaufman and a telephone number after that. Did you ever meet Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall ever meeting him, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know who he is?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Now was Stanley Kaufman a name that Jack would have wanted kept on a permanent basis?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, sir.
Mr. Griffin. There is a line with nothing written on it following the entry in connection with Stanley Kaufman, and there is a notation “Wednesday pay bill at phone company.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Was that something you were to do?
Mr. Crafard. Something I was to remind Jack to do.
Mr. Griffin. Would we be able to date anything in this book from that entry of Wednesday pay phone bill, for example, if we knew when Jack paid his telephone bill in October or November? Would we be able to draw any conclusions as to all of the entries in the book which appear before that entry “Wed pay bill at phone company?”
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t think so.
Mr. Griffin. There is a line after the entry in connection with the phone company, and then there is something written. What is written?
Mr. Crafard. Riky Kasada.
Mr. Griffin. And is that somebody’s name?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Is that your spelling of a name that was spoken to you or did somebody actually dictate that spelling to you?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it is my own spelling.
Mr. Griffin. So it is simply what we would call your interpretation of the phonetics?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Who is Riky Kasada?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, sir.
Mr. Griffin. After that there is another name.
Mr. Crafard. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s.
Mr. Griffin. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir, M-i-l-l-e-s.
Mr. Griffin. Who was he?
Mr. Crafard. It was a she. She was the woman who called me in reference to Mickey on this job.
Mr. Griffin. In other words, she called to inquire about Mickey Ryan?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. And do you remember the conversation you had with her?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Did she indicate where she was calling from?
Mr. Crafard. She said something about a club or something.
Mr. Griffin. Was it this Hunt Club or Gun Club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Is there any connection between Riky Kasada and Scotty Milles?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Under the entry reference on Mickey, there is a line and then there are some figures written there. Do you make anything out of those numbers?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Would those be expenses that you had or money that you took out of the cash register?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. No?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. Do you think if you sat here awhile and thought about it you might be able to make something out of this?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. It might be some bills that I had paid or something. Maybe some champagne I had bought or something like that that I had put down, the money I had been given and what I had spent.
Mr. Hubert. You are clear though that those figures refer to money?
Mr. Crafard. I would say so by the way they are wrote down.
Mr. Hubert. Is the significant point about the way they are written down that indicates that they refer to money.
Mr. Crafard. The number 1420 is wrote down like you write down $14.20.
Mr. Hubert. By doing what to the 1420?
Mr. Crafard. Putting the dot behind your 14.
Mr. Hubert. You put the decimal?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is that the way you write money?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. So that you would say that those figures being in your handwriting would be the way you would write figures concerning money?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back side of page 3. I want to turn to page 4 then. What is written at the top of page 4?
Mr. Crafard. The name Norma Bennett with the number CA 4-2234.
Mr. Griffin. Is that Bennett or Barnett?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it is Bennett. As I have wrote it it appears to be Barnett.
Mr. Griffin. But you think the name is Bennett.
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now who is Norma Bennett?
Mr. Crafard. She is a young lady that called in connection with the ad that Jack had ran, subsequently came in and met Jack. Jack tried to talk her to go to work as a stripper.
Mr. Griffin. Did she ever work for him in any capacity?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of, sir; not around the Carousel.
Mr. Griffin. When did you first see her?
Mr. Crafard. When she came into the club the day after she phoned. I believe that was about 4 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. Griffin. And did you talk to her at all?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. What was your conversation with her?
Mr. Crafard. Just getting acquainted with her more than anything. She seemed like a pretty nice girl. We got along pretty well.
Mr. Griffin. How long did she remain in the club that day?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she was around the club most of the afternoon.
Mr. Griffin. And was Jack there during that period?
Mr. Crafard. Jack came in after she arrived.
Mr. Griffin. How long did Jack stay while she was there?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he spent a couple of hours around the club.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any conversation Jack had?
Mr. Crafard. Not particularly, sir.
Mr. Hubert. With reference to the entry on page 4 concerning Norma Barnett, is there any doubt in your mind that, as it is written, it is Barnett and not Bennett?
Mr. Crafard. No doubt in my mind it is spelled Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t.
Mr. Hubert. You got that over the phone when she called; is that right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What makes you think that her name was not really Barnett but Bennett?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that I already spoke of her as Norma Bennett I believe when I spoke with her. I recall that.
Mr. Hubert. Your testimony was that you subsequently met her.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you then learn that her name was Bennett instead of Barnett?
Mr. Crafard. I very seldom used her last name after I met her. I believe when she introduced herself it sounded to me like she said Norma Bennett when she introduced herself to Jack.
Mr. Hubert. Obviously when you heard it over the phone you thought it was Barnett because that is the way you put it down.
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. But thereafter you think you learned from her that it was Bennett?
Mr. Crafard. I might have misspelled it to myself or something. I referred to her as Bennett all the time.
Mr. Hubert. To whom did you refer as Bennett?
Mr. Crafard. Whenever I used her name to Jack a couple of times when we was talking about her.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever use the name Bennett to her?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall ever using her last name to her, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to say that you really don’t know what her last name is?
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What is the next word after CA 4-2234?
Mr. Crafard. Waitress.
Mr. Hubert. And then under that?
Mr. Crafard. Judy Armstrong.
Mr. Hubert. What is under that?
Mr. Crafard. Congress, the phone number Congress 9-2576, Carlton, Tex.
Mr. Hubert. Do you think those four lines beginning with waitress and ending up with Carlton, Tex., all deal with the same transaction?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, the word “waitress” doesn’t deal with the direction above it but the transaction below it?
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What was that, a call from somebody who wanted to be a waitress?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; I believe so.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever meet that person?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall meeting her.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Jack called her?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know if he called her or not, sir.
Mr. Hubert. All right; let’s pass to the next entry under that.
Mr. Crafard. Excuse me 1 minute, please. It seems to me this Judy Armstrong was a number that one night one of the girls was sick and one of the other girls that had the night off and we needed another girl and this is a girl that had worked for Jack, I believe, and we tried to call her. I am not positive of that. Or we tried to call her to go to work or something.
Mr. Hubert. What you are saying is that insofar as the entry concerning Judy Armstrong which begins with the word waitress and ends with Carlton, Tex.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You first testified that you thought that this was a person answering an ad?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now you think that actually you all sought to call her to work in place of someone who was ill?
Mr. Crafard. I believe the way it worked out she had called in connection with the ad and we had her number down on the list of girls to call and one night we needed a girl and we tried to call her and couldn’t get in touch with her. Tried to call her to come to work and couldn’t get in touch with her.
Mr. Hubert. So that the entry on page 4 was actually made as you said it was?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. When she called applying for a job but you have an independent recollection other than the entry that on some occasion you called her to just see if she could substitute?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember whether you reached her.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall reaching her, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And you have never met her?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. All right; what about Burt Nelson?
Mr. Crafard. Burt Nelson, Chez Femme, the phone number EM 3-6324, and I don’t know who Mr. Nelson is.
Mr. Hubert. What is that Chez Femme?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that is a place he worked, I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. What sort of a place is it?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall, sir. I believe it was a clothing store of some sort.
Mr. Hubert. A what?
Mr. Crafard. A clothing store of some sort, sir, I believe, I am not positive.
Mr. Hubert. What about the entry under that?
Mr. Crafard. Buddy, hyphenized, Floyd Turner, phone number LY 2-5903, Tyler, Tex. I don’t remember ever meeting him. I believe Jack referred to him as Budd Turner though.
Mr. Hubert. Would that be a call that had come in or a call given to you by Jack?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure, sir. I believe it was one given to me by Jack.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know anything about that man?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Never met him.
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear his name spoken other than in this connection?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s turn over to the next page then which is page 5. Would you read it because I can’t read your handwriting.
Mr. Crafard. Page 5 or do you want to read the reverse of page 4, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I want to read the reverse of page 4 I beg your pardon.
Mr. Crafard. It starts with line Linda phone number RI 2-0720, and the initials R. W. Bowsher.
Mr. Hubert. Do you think that those three entries relate to the same thing.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe they do, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Then tell us what they do mean independently.
Mr. Crafard. I believe the line DA and the line number is a number where we could get ahold of this girl Linda, but the R. W. Bowsher I have no recollection of what it would be.
Mr. Hubert. Does it seem to be written with a different pen or pencil?
Mr. Crafard. The pencil that was used for the word Linda and the phone number seems to have been sharper than the one used for R. W. Bowsher.
Mr. Hubert. Was it your custom to separate independent episodes by leaving a blank line between them?
Mr. Crafard. I have done so most of the time; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. In this case you don’t seem to have done so.
Mr. Crafard. Sometimes I would put them right under something else.
Mr. Hubert. Anyway your recollection now is that you think the word Linda and the telephone number under it is independent from the line that immediately follows which reads “R. W. Bowsher?”
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes sir.
Mr. Hubert. Who is Linda?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, sir; I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. You said she was a——
Mr. Crafard. I believe she was more like a girl that called in answer to the ad we ran in the paper.
Mr. Hubert. What about R. W. Bowsher, then?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall anything about him.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s pass to the next entry which is separated from R. W. Bowsher by a blank line.
Mr. Crafard. Buddy Heard, Loflin Hotel, phone number KE 2-4672.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t that 71?
Mr. Crafard. 71, yes sir. And underneath that the numbers 5336827, and 100 North Florence—and the word “office.” I believe that would be the fact that Buddy Heard was staying at the Loflin Hotel. The KE number would be a number where we could reach Buddy Heard. The next number down would be probably a number for the office. I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. And the telephone for that office.
Mr. Crafard. I believe would be the 533-6827. I am not positive.
Mr. Hubert. You think that those five lines beginning Buddy Heard and ending 100 North Florence—office are all related to the same transaction?
Mr. Crafard. I would believe so; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you think they are not related to the line which immediately follows starting “Burt called?”
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I believe that is something entirely different.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know Buddy Heard?
Mr. Crafard. I am not positive. I believe I have met him. I am not sure. But “Burt called” underneath that——
Mr. Hubert. Let’s not leave Buddy Heard yet. Does the name mean anything to you at all? You might have some recollection in your mind?
Mr. Crafard. I have heard the name mentioned several times but I don’t know what Heard done for a living. I believe he had something in connection with the actor’s union. I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t think you have ever met him?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Go to the next entry, then.
Mr. Crafard. Burt will call later. You have his home number. I believe that would be all related.
Mr. Hubert. Those four lines would be related to one another?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What would be the significance of that?
Mr. Crafard. The fact that this Burt called and wouldn’t leave the number but said that Jack had his home number.
Mr. Hubert. “You” there refers to Jack, right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, this was a note that was being written so that when Jack read it if he weren’t there he would know it was written to him?
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Who is Burt?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall who he was.
Mr. Hubert. All right. That finishes the back of page 4. Mr. Griffin, do you want to start with page 5?
Mr. Griffin. In other words, you got through the entries “Burt called.” For my own clarification, did we identify where the Loflin Hotel is, which city that is in?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; we didn’t.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know where that is?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. I believe that it is Dallas. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Are all of the entries from Buddy Heard to 100 North Florence—office——
Mr. Hubert. That has been covered.
Mr. Griffin. Then on the top of page 5 there is a series of notations. Would you read those off.
Mr. Crafard. “Get ad off to Hyman.” In other words things to tell Jack, to remind Jack he had to do was to get an ad off to Hyman, pay a phone bill and go to the bank and then appointment call to Earl.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what ad there was to get off to Hyman?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was the ad in connection with the twistboards. I am not positive. We were sending an ad to this Hyman.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where the ad was to be placed?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir. He was to mail it, I believe, I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. What is the meaning of “appointment call to Earl”? What is an appointment call?
Mr. Crafard. He had called and asked the operator to place the call at a certain time and to call him back when the connection had been made.
Mr. Griffin. The mailing of the ad to Hyman and the paying of the phone bill and the going to the bank and the appointment call to Earl, did these all occur on the same day?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so.
Mr. Griffin. There is a line drawn under appointment call to Earl. It separates the page in half roughly.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. What is the significance of that line.
Mr. Crafard. It would be that this top portion of the page would have been 1 day, things I had wrote down for 1 day. The bottom of it would have been another day or on 2 or 3 days later.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is an entry there “get post office box.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What was that in connection with?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he was going to get another post office box to use for this twistboard setup.
Mr. Griffin. Did he already have one post office box before that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he was receiving the mail through the Carousel Club and his home address.
Mr. Griffin. There is a number under there RI 1-0345. Do you know whose phone number that is?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. And there is a line with nothing written on it after that, and there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. “Pauline called” at I believe 4 and will be in about 7 or something like that.
Mr. Griffin. Who was Pauline?
Mr. Crafard. She was more or less I’d say the assistant manager over at the Vegas Club.
Mr. Griffin. That was Pauline Hall.
Mr. Crafard. I would say so.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 5; is that correct?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on those entries on page 5?
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the appointment call with Earl?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Those entries at the top of page 5, the four of them, the things that you were to do or remind him of, were they simply told to you by Jack over the phone or in person and then you were to remind him the next day or later?
Mr. Crafard. Things that Jack said and I was to remind him the next day. I believe on this phone call he had tried to place it one day and he couldn’t get the phone call through so he arranged for an appointment call the next afternoon I believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. Did you do it yourself?
Mr. Crafard. If Jack did?
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember him doing it?
Mr. Crafard. I can remember him placing, trying to place a call to Earl one day and he couldn’t make it and he arranged a call for the next day. But I don’t know if this was the incident or not.
Mr. Hubert. What this simply means is that you were to remind him of it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. That was then your function with respect to it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall Jack ever mentioning or did you ever hear anything about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall it, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if Jack had any dealings with any people in Wisconsin?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to turn over to the back of page 5. There is a name written at the top of the back of page 5. What name is that?
Mr. Crafard. Jerry Lindsay.
Mr. Griffin. Who is Jerry Lindsay?
Mr. Crafard. He called in wanting a job. He had been a floorman in another club and he called in asking about a job at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. What is a floorman?
Mr. Crafard. A polite way of saying bouncer.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack employ a bouncer while you were there?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk to Jack about why he did or did not, why he didn’t have a bouncer?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Was there any need for a bouncer?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; not the Carousel Club. This would have been in connection with the Vegas Club, I believe.
Mr. Griffin. Was there a tougher crowd at the Vegas Club?
Mr. Crafard. They had sometimes some pretty tough crowds out there on weekend nights. People would get drunk and start giving them trouble. The floorman would talk to the man trying to get him to quiet and if he wouldn’t be quiet he would escort him to the door.
Mr. Griffin. The Vegas Club didn’t have stripteasers did it?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Yet there was a tougher crowd there at the Vegas.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Why was that?
Mr. Crafard. The type of crowd that frequented the clubs, the Carousel Club and the other burlesque shows in town was the businessmen more than anything, whereas the Vegas Club’s clientele was more or less common laborers, working people. It was a dance club where you could go in and buy beer, soft drinks and you could dance, and the clientele there was of the rougher nature.
Mr. Griffin. I was a little bit confused in your testimony yesterday.
Was it your impression that Jack was doing better financially off the Vegas than off the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. Definitely; yes.
Mr. Griffin. And you say that with positiveness? What makes you so positive about that?
Mr. Crafard. Two or three different times Jack said if it wasn’t for the Vegas Club he would have had to close the Carousel down a long time before. The Vegas Club was making enough money to keep the Carousel and the Vegas both running.
Mr. Griffin. Why do you think he kept the Carousel open?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know, sir. There had been a stretch where I guess he had had pretty bad luck with the Carousel, hadn’t been making much money and he used the money he made from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel going at that time from what I understood.
Mr. Griffin. But the time you were working there was the Carousel carrying its own?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes, sir; to my knowledge.
Mr. Griffin. So you felt that in the month or 2 months that you worked for Jack, both the Vegas and the Carousel were self-sustaining operations?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. After this entry about Jerry Lindsay, there is a telephone number TA 7-2553 floorman, and I understand from your testimony those all should be read together. Then there is a line with nothing written on it and there is a notation which I wonder if you can decipher.
Mr. Crafard. “Talked to Leo—Mrs. Grant.”
Mr. Griffin. Would you recall the significance of that, who Leo was?
Mr. Crafard. He worked at, I believe he was handling the floor at the Carousel most of the time. I don’t recall what his last name was. I believe this was the night that I stayed at the Vegas Club for Jack the first night. I believe Leo called and I talked to him and then I talked to Mrs. Grant right away. Mrs. Grant called right away after that and I talked to her. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Is it your impression that the call from Jerry Lindsay was also taken at the Vegas Club?
Mr. Crafard. No; the call from Jerry Lindsay was taken at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. How about the telephone number under that, EM——
Mr. Crafard. That is FL 1-9303.
Mr. Griffin. Yes; do you know what——
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall what it would be in connection with, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Or the next telephone number.
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 5. Now let me turn over to page 6. There are some entries on there, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then from Sunday through Monday you have entries of amounts of money after that. Did you make those entries on there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And what do those refer to?
Mr. Crafard. It refers to draws that I made from the till.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what week that would have been that you made that entry?
Mr. Crafard. No sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. The entries for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are not complete. Do you have any recollection on the basis of that that it was the last week that you worked there?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so, sir. I don’t believe it was. I might have been but I don’t believe it was.
Mr. Hubert. Larry, I notice that nowhere else in this little book are there entries of that nature. Can we assume that you only kept such records for 1 week or rather 4 days of 1 week?
Mr. Crafard. I believe this was because of the fact that Jack had agreed to start paying me a salary and he wanted me to keep track of my draw slips, draws on that, and then it appears about Wednesday or Thursday he told me to quit keeping it, didn’t have to keep track of it any more or something.
Mr. Hubert. When you first went there it was just on a draw basis.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Then you talked to him about a salary?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He told you that he would think it over.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And your testimony now is that after you all had talked about a salary he wanted to know what your draw was so that he could adjust the salary accordingly, is that right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. So that these entries would have been made about the time that you talked about a salary?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir. It would have been about 3 weeks before the assassination of President Kennedy I believe, sir.
Mr. Griffin. That you talked about——
Mr. Crafard. About the salary; yes.
Mr. Hubert. It is fair to say then that these entries relate to that week, to wit, about 3 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. Crafard. It would be 2 or 3 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. Hubert. You said that the significance of the fact that there are no entries for Thursday, Friday and Saturday is that Jack told you that it was no longer necessary to keep a record of your draws?
Mr. Crafard. I would believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. What did that mean with respect to whether you were going on salary or not?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what it had to do with that, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go on a salary?
Mr. Crafard. I never was paid any salary.
Mr. Hubert. But you do remember he told you to stop keeping a record.
Mr. Crafard. I believe that would be the reason that I quit. I don’t actually recall him saying so but I believe that would be the reason.
Mr. Hubert. Doesn’t that refresh your memory?
Mr. Crafard. No sir; it doesn’t.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t let me finish but I will repeat it. Doesn’t that refresh your memory with respect to the fact that you all had agreed upon a salary then? Could it have any other significance?
Mr. Crafard. He had said something; he said I would draw a salary but I don’t believe there was ever any exact figure agreed upon. I don’t remember of any.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, on Wednesday, although you had not agreed on what the amount of the salary would be, your recollection is that he told you it was no longer necessary to keep this because there would be a salary?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Hubert. But there never was any salary paid at all.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. When did you normally make these entries?
Mr. Crafard. Whenever I’d make a draw. Usually in the evening I made most of my draws.
Mr. Hubert. And you would put it in the book immediately.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; usually.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that sometimes you would put it in there the next day.
Mr. Crafard. I might sometimes the next day; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact also that at the beginning of that week you wrote down all of these days and then the entries were made as you drew for each day?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now an entry for Thursday would have been made on Friday, wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it would have been made on Thursday.
Mr. Hubert. I think you just told me that there was at least the possibility.
Mr. Crafard. There was a possibility I would have waited until Friday but I believe I would have made the entries on the day I made the draw.
Mr. Hubert. I am suggesting to you that these sets of entries have to do with the week in which President Kennedy was killed, and that is that you had agreed upon a salary on the Wednesday.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall exactly what week they had to do with, sir; really. It could have been that week.
Mr. Hubert. But you had agreed on salary?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But not the amount of it?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. And you never were paid any?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. For instance, the Saturday before you left Dallas you were not paid a salary.
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Had a salary been agreed upon prior to that time?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall that, sir.
Mr. Hubert. If it had it would have been paid wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; it would have been.
Mr. Hubert. Doesn’t that pinpoint then this series of days as being the week during which President Kennedy was killed on a Friday.
Mr. Crafard. It seems to; yes.
Mr. Griffin. After the entry “Saturday” there is a blank line and then there is an entry “call home as soon as possible.”
How did that come to be written?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir. It could have been somebody called in to have one of the girls call home or something like this. A couple of the girls had been married and had children.
Mr. Griffin. Was that a note left for Jack Ruby or for yourself?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe it was for Jack Ruby. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. Did you carry this notebook on your person at all times?
Mr. Crafard. When I was in the club it was in my pocket all the time.
Mr. Griffin. And when you were not in the club?
Mr. Crafard. Most of the time it would be in my pocket, anyway.
Mr. Griffin. Now there is a telephone number written after the previous entry, and it is RI 1-4643. Do you remember that entry?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t remember it.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 6.
Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written on there, Schroll. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And then there is the name Dick Gifford, KTVT, Fort Worth, TA 3-7110. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be written down?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Or who that refers to?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. How about Dick Gifford?
Mr. Crafard. He was I believe an MC over at the KTVT.
Mr. Griffin. Now do you remember how that entry happened to be put in there?
Mr. Crafard. It was something in connection with the twist board setup. I called him in connection with—Jack give me the number to call and ask for this Dick Gifford.
Mr. Griffin. Then what did you say to Dick Gifford?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was something on the price of advertisement on TV, for a TV advertisement or something of that sort.
Mr. Griffin. And what makes you think that it was the price of a TV ad?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly this next line hasn’t got anything on it. It has been erased. I believe I erased it, 150 for 1 minute, and I recall this 150 for 1 minute was in connection with a TV advertisement.
I don’t remember whether I made the call or whether Jack made the call or what.
Mr. Griffin. After the line 150 for 1 minute, which is partially erased, there is an entry “Names of record shops where it can be bought.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What does that refer to?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure of what it does refer to, sir. Probably a record of some kind that Jack was wanting to get ahold of.
Mr. Griffin. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any records that Jack was interested in buying?
Mr. Crafard. He was buying records and bought a lot of records he gave away as prizes in the club.
Mr. Griffin. What kind of records were they?
Mr. Crafard. Such records as, Belly Dancer and Striptease for Your Husband. Rusty Warren records and such as that.
Mr. Griffin. So they were what you might call party records?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; party records.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack show an interest in any other kind of records besides party records.
Mr. Crafard. Not for the club that I ever saw.
Mr. Griffin. How about for other purposes?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember him ever saying anything about records for anything else.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back part of page 6.
We will turn over to the front part of page 7. There are some entries there. Are those entries all in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. The first entry is Joe Roskydall.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us again who Joe Roskydall is?
Mr. Crafard. The name Roskydall is the last name of a friend of mine. This Joe was a number in the phone number I called when I was trying to locate this friend of mine.
Mr. Griffin. What is your friend’s first name.
Mr. Crafard. Robert Roskydall.
Mr. Griffin. And was Robert living with Joe Roskydall?
Mr. Crafard. No; I figured they might be related. He had been around Dallas for quite a while and I thought they might be related in some way.
Mr. Griffin. There is something written on the next line after Joe Roskydall. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. It looks like Benning, EV 1-6260.
Mr. Griffin. Does that have any connection with Joe Roskydall?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what Benning was?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. What is written on the next line?
Mr. Crafard. W. J. Groveland, DA 1-5178.
Mr. Griffin. Is that a person?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Who was that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how that entry came to be?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir.
Mr. Griffin. There is another entry there.
Mr. Crafard. Dick Lenard.
Mr. Griffin. Yes; who is Dick Lenard?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall that, sir.
Mr. Griffin. There is another one.
Mr. Crafard. KTVT TA 3-7110.
Mr. Griffin. That is the same number that you had for Dick Gifford.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Does that indicate that there was a second call made?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that this KTVT here was wrote down before the other one was. It was later he give me the name Dick Gifford for the same number.
Mr. Griffin. After the entry about KTVT there is a line with nothing written on it and there is some more writing.
Mr. Crafard. E. J. Evans.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know who he was?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. What is the next?
Mr. Crafard. Stevens Park Beauty Salon, 2140 Forth Worth.
Mr. Griffin. What is the significance of that entry?
Mr. Crafard. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them to promote this twist board for him.
Mr. Griffin. And did you call more than one beauty salon?
Mr. Crafard. I called several of them around Dallas. I don’t remember calling any in Fort Worth.
Mr. Griffin. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons.
Mr. Crafard. Talk to them about the twist boards.
Mr. Griffin. How would a typical conversation go.
Mr. Crafard. I’d call them and tell them——
Mr. Griffin. Introduce yourself?
Mr. Crafard. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons.
Mr. Griffin. And did you make any placements?
Mr. Crafard. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth Avenue in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Griffin. That would be in Dallas.
Mr. Crafard. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them.
Mr. Griffin. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers.
Mr. Crafard. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive of that.
Mr. Griffin. And what were you supposed to do?
Mr. Crafard. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack have brochures printed up?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How long after you started to work for him did he have these brochures? When did he first have them?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated he got them. He hadn’t got them very long.
Mr. Griffin. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they?
Mr. Crafard. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7½ inches long and I believe it was about 5½ inches wide.
It said “Twist a waist exerciser,” and then it showed an exerciser board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that.
Mr. Griffin. How big were these twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. They were about an 8-inch square.
Mr. Griffin. What were they made out of?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a 1½-inch pressed board.
Mr. Griffin. That would be wood of some sort.
Mr. Crafard. Pressed wood.
Mr. Griffin. Is that a fiberboard?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. It is not a plastic though?
Mr. Crafard. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings.
Mr. Griffin. And would you lie on the floor on this thing?
Mr. Crafard. No; you would stand on it and twist.
Mr. Griffin. Who designed this item?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know who originally designed the item.
Mr. Griffin. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it himself?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had designed it.
Mr. Griffin. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board on it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 7, doesn’t it.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. The front part of page 7.
Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil, are those all in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now what is the first entry?
Mr. Crafard. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember that name?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir. I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that.
Mr. Crafard. There is the word “Johnnie call Detroit.”
Mr. Griffin. But there are two telephone numbers.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And then the note “Johnnie call Detroit Helene.” What does that have to do with—?
Mr. Crafard. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC’s Jack had working for him. I don’t recall the last name. He got a call to call Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in Detroit.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know who Helene was?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife.
Mr. Griffin. Then there are three blank lines.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And a number written upside down. What number is that?
Mr. Crafard. That is RI 6-6807.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. I don’t believe that is my handwriting. It doesn’t appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren’t shaped like any numbers are shaped.
Mr. Griffin. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then Mulmore?
Mr. Crafard. It could be; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7 after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for Expressway, dash 5400.
Mr. Griffin. What does that have to do with?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let me see.
Mr. Griffin. It is or is not?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn’t know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn’t know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on McKinney to 2500.
Mr. Griffin. Those are directions to get to some place?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; McKinney, but I don’t remember where.
Mr. Griffin. And were they directions for you or for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. For somebody else. I don’t recall who it was for.
Mr. Griffin. For a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall. I give the directions to somebody else but I don’t recall who it was.
Mr. Griffin. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out Central Expressway to the 5400 block?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney?
Mr. Crafard. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500 block.
Mr. Griffin. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn?
Mr. Crafard. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying to remember. I can’t remember too much of it.
Mr. Griffin. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the telephone?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these directions.
Mr. Griffin. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those directions?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of Dallas, the southern end.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8 there are some entries. Whose entries are those?
Mr. Crafard. These are my entries.
Mr. Griffin. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named Lenard Woods.
Mr. Crafard. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address, 3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson, the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number, the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436; the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia; I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026.
Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations in there?
Mr. Crafard. Jack’s sister took sick. He had me get the names and the addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with them and also for he said tax purposes.
Mr. Griffin. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the information there or did you call them?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack’s sister or Pauline. I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front side of page 8.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are those entries?
Mr. Crafard. The numbers, the phone number WH 3-9783. That doesn’t mean anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can’t make out what is underneath it.
Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure. It could be.
Mr. Griffin. And this telephone number doesn’t mean anything to you?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 8. Let’s look at page 9.
There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember every making an entry of that sort. For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times. These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t recall ever making an entry of that sort.
Mr. Griffin. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then something is written. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is as close as I can come to it.
Mr. Griffin. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And is that in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 9, doesn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back of page 9.
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page 10.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12 there are some items “supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion, tooth brush, code 10 hair cream.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And they are personal items?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. That you purchased for yourself?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry made?
Mr. Crafard. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. How long before you left?
Mr. Crafard. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left.
Mr. Griffin. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us.
Mr. Crafard. The name Bonnie?
Mr. Griffin. Who is Bonnie?
Mr. Crafard. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. What is after that?
Mr. Crafard. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise.
Mr. Griffin. And then what is the entry.
Mr. Crafard. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise.
Mr. Griffin. There is an M or something up ahead.
Mr. Crafard. That signifies the mayonnaise.
Mr. Griffin. I see.
Mr. Crafard. PS, I don’t know exactly what that PS meant there. There is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of this was.
Mr. Griffin. Would that be Betty or Becky.
Mr. Crafard. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill Remike.
Mr. Griffin. Who is he?
Mr. Crafard. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple at 9 o’clock.
Mr. Griffin. That is also a reservation.
Mr. Crafard. Also a reservation.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back of page 12.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now page 13, there is an entry.
Mr. Crafard. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson.
Mr. Griffin. Who is Bobby Patterson.
Mr. Crafard. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at the Vegas Club. I don’t have his name down. He had something to do with the band at the Vegas Club.
Mr. Griffin. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him?
Mr. Crafard. I met Bobby Patterson; yes.
Mr. Griffin. How many times would you say you met him?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I saw him once or twice.
Mr. Griffin. Where did you see him?
Mr. Crafard. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw him at the Vegas Club one time.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel, when was that?
Mr. Crafard. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack.
Mr. Griffin. And do you recall how long he stayed?
Mr. Crafard. He wasn’t there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the most.
Mr. Griffin. And do you recall what he talked about with him?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was something about, had something to do with who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or something of that sort. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas Club.
Mr. Crafard. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight. I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player, saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his buddy’s chest and he stood on his buddy’s chest playing his horn.
I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Could this guy have been a police officer?
Mr. Crafard. No; I am very doubtful of that.
Mr. Griffin. You didn’t know any Bobby Patterson who was a police officer?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. And there is no question that you had met a guy named Bobby Patterson.
Mr. Crafard. No question there; no.
Mr. Griffin. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe he would.
Mr. Griffin. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. It appears to be 3902 East Waco.
Mr. Griffin. Who made that entry?
Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.
Mr. Griffin. I believe you testified before you didn’t think that was your handwriting.
Mr. Crafard. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco.
Mr. Griffin. Or could it be E Street Waco?
Mr. Crafard. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would remember it if I saw it.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be?
Mr. Crafard. I’d say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel. The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o.
Mr. Griffin. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. Crafard. No. Were these entries “call Jack Carousel” and “Call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel,” were these your entries?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. And were those notes for yourself or——
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was something I told somebody else or something. I don’t even—I can’t even figure why I would write it down. I don’t know. That doesn’t really look like my handwriting. I wouldn’t have put “Call Mr. Ruby.” I’d put “Call Jack.” And this looks like “Mr.” up at the top of the page. It is something I can’t ever remember putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is about a third of a sheet written in pencil.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What does that say?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure what it is.
Mr. Griffin. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other afterward.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And then “Frank Fisher.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Who is Frank Fisher?
Mr. Crafard. I have no idea.
Mr. Griffin. But you indicated before that you thought that was in connection with twist boards.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I did.
Mr. Griffin. Do you still think that?
Mr. Crafard. It could be twist boards or something to do with these dogs.
Mr. Griffin. Why do you think something to do with the dogs?
Mr. Crafard. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be something to do with one of the dogs.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who was a friend of Jack Ruby’s?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe I ever met him. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. That information doesn’t refresh your recollection about Frank Fisher at all?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of page 14 there is a telephone number.
Mr. Crafard. TA 7-2553. I don’t recall what the number would be.
Mr. Griffin. And then a notation about?
Mr. Crafard. “Tuna fish with lettuce wholewheat toast dry.”
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the top there is an entry. What is that entry?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA 6-8303.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember making a call to that number?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything about that notation?
Mr. Crafard. No; sir. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837?
Mr. Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything to me. I believe I stated before I didn’t believe I put that down.
Mr. Griffin. How about “Herman Flowers,” that doesn’t mean anything to you?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. So the entry here “Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy” is the last entry on the front part of page 15.
We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of numbers written down.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What do those numbers have to do with?
Mr. Crafard. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. Griffin. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on the page. What does that entry appear to be?
Mr. Crafard. “K. Hamilton.”
Mr. Griffin. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. Crafard. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody had called in for reservations.
Mr. Griffin. It says, “9—3 couples between runway.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. “Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.” It would be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is another entry under that.
Mr. Crafard. “Cody-City Hall.”
Mr. Griffin. Did you know who Cody was?
Mr. Crafard. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an officer of the law. I’m not sure if he was an officer of the law or a lawyer, or what he was.
Mr. Griffin. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall the first name of the gentleman.
Mr. Griffin. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall what Jack really did say. It had something to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or something like that.
Mr. Griffin. When would this have been?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall.
Mr. Griffin. Shortly before you left?
Mr. Crafard. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is there?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number written. What is that number?
Mr. Crafard. “TA 3-8101.”
Mr. Griffin. Do you know whose number that is?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that would be the doctor’s number. I’m not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Under there is written the name “Dr. Aranoff.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Is that your writing?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was?
Mr. Crafard. He was Mrs. Grant’s doctor, as I recall it.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have any conversation with him?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation with the doctor.
Mr. Griffin. There is a line with nothing written on it. And the next line has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. The number “FR 4-2764.”
Mr. Griffin. Is that a Dallas telephone number?
Mr. Crafard. I am not positive of that. It might be.
Mr. Griffin. Is the number familiar to you at all?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall the number at all.
Mr. Griffin. And on the next line, what is written?
Mr. Crafard. “LA 8-4716,” the name “Debby.”
Mr. Griffin. Is the name Debby familiar to you?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is another line.
Mr. Crafard. “Overton Rd.,” and “Hawthorne” underneath, it would be Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, “Porta Build, Inc.” company. This is all something of my own here.
Mr. Griffin. What did that have to do with?
Mr. Crafard. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive.
Mr. Griffin. How about Porta——
Mr. Crafard. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp.
Mr. Griffin. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. When had you worked for them?
Mr. Crafard. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year.
Mr. Griffin. Were you going to contact them?
Mr. Crafard. I was thinking about, maybe seeing if they needed any men down there, or something.
Mr. Griffin. When did you make that entry?
Mr. Crafard. This was about a month before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever contact them about a job?
Mr. Crafard. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman wasn’t there that I had talked to, and I never called back. The Litot Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived when we was living in Dallas.
Mr. Griffin. That is the next entry on there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How about the telephone number?
Mr. Crafard. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half of page 17 there is a notation. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso.
Mr. Griffin. Did Andy go to El Paso?
Mr. Crafard. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he was in El Paso. I don’t remember exactly what it had something to do with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort.
Mr. Griffin. Was Andy going to try to hire him?
Mr. Crafard. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. The name Mary.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my sister-in-law’s name is Mary.
Mr. Griffin. How about the telephone number under that?
Mr. Crafard. It has no meaning to me whatsoever.
Mr. Griffin. And then the next telephone number?
Mr. Crafard. It has no meaning, either.
Mr. Griffin. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on there. What is the first entry on the page?
Mr. Crafard. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75.
Mr. Griffin. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that day or something.
Mr. Griffin. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200?
Mr. Crafard. It might possibly be $200.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Griffin. What is the notation after that?
Mr. Crafard. Jack took $20 from the bar till.
Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall when that was?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I don’t recall.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is another entry after that, “Pete White Atty.”
Mr. Crafard. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a number, RI 1-1295.
Mr. Griffin. Did you make that entry?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall anything about Pete White?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now, what is the next entry on there?
Mr. Crafard. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is, “Call beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser,” and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each.
Mr. Griffin. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate to twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to page 18——
Mr. Crafard. The first thing on the page is “Jimmy Rhodes can tell where to get blowups at.” Some blowups of some pictures that Jack wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at.
Mr. Griffin. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. Crafard. I heard Jack mention the name.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the name?
Mr. Crafard. Mr. Wooldridge.
Mr. Griffin. Who is he?
Mr. Crafard. I am not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then there is a telephone number.
Mr. Crafard. The number WH 6-6220.
Mr. Griffin. Does that number mean anything to you?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and the notation “8-5 tomorrow.” What did that have to do with?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the name Bob Litchfield.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember him?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. And a telephone number after that.
Mr. Crafard. It is TA 7-9301.
Mr. Griffin. And then a name after that.
Mr. Crafard. Mrs. Moddy.
Mr. Griffin. Who is she?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I’m not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does it not?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which is right under the name Mrs. Moddy.
Mr. Crafard. I imagine it is her number.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH 2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name Newton. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. I’m not positive of that. It doesn’t appear to be my writing.
Mr. Griffin. What is the number written under the name Newton?
Mr. Crafard. 2550.
Mr. Griffin. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. That is not your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. No. I don’t ever recall of having wrote any of those written in ink.
Mr. Griffin. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those are.
Mr. Crafard. The name J. L. Coxsey.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know this person?
Mr. Crafard. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas.
Mr. Griffin. How would that be spelled?
Mr. Crafard. His name was Lee Coxsey.
Mr. Griffin. Is that the same gentleman?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. And there is the number under that that I can’t make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is, it looks like LV or something. I can’t understand that a bit. There is the number FL 2-8995.
Mr. Griffin. Are those things in your handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed from Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. It was either in Jack’s office or in the room right in front of his office where I slept days. I’m not positive whether I left it on his desk or on a stand in my room.
Mr. Griffin. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you leave it in a drawer?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a desk, whichever it was. I’m not positive.
Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask?
Mr. Hubert. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that normally you kept that book on your person?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t leave it hanging around?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get a paper or something like that and I’d leave the book lay on one of the tables near the phone and go down and come back up.
Mr. Hubert. Then you would get your book back?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from Dallas, the book was always in your possession?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the time you left for Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said are not in your handwriting——
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. What makes you sure of that?
Mr. Crafard. Nobody else had wrote in the book.
Mr. Hubert. No one had a chance to?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions?
Mr. Crafard. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it that he carried himself.
Mr. Hubert. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had occasion to write them in?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. I never noticed them.
Mr. Hubert. And no one else had a chance to write them in?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Would it have been possible that those entries were written prior to the time you left Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very much if they were.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. In what ways did it seem different?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there were more pages in it than was there.
Mr. Hubert. Pages with writing, or blank pages?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t recall whether they was all blank pages or whether they had writing on them, or what.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages that are not in that book at the present time?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any pages with information on them have been taken out?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Your impression that the book is different than it was before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did before?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in the middle of the book last time I used it.
Mr. Hubert. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when you determined to go away?
Mr. Crafard. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this business and they didn’t mean anything to me, so I just left it there.
Mr. Hubert. Did you do that deliberately?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn’t mean anything to me. I had no use for it.
Mr. Hubert. You wanted to see that he got them?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know where you left the book?
Mr. Crafard. I either left it—I am not positive exactly where I left it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand where he would have saw it.
Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us why you didn’t write a note saying why you were leaving, where you would be?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t say why other than what I have said the other day.
Mr. Hubert. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying?
Mr. Crafard. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my mind to leave and I didn’t want to have to argue with him.
Mr. Hubert. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented your writing a note.
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Or of calling Armstrong.
Mr. Crafard. I didn’t even think about it a bit.
Mr. Griffin. Did you think at all about calling anybody?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. This wasn’t even a matter that you pondered as to whether you should or should not call?
Mr. Crafard. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I didn’t feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone.
Mr. Hubert. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what he had done for you.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to see your sister?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t think you owed it to him just to leave him a note?
Mr. Crafard. It just never entered my mind.
Mr. Hubert. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how much cash you had in fact taken?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren’t you interested in that?
Mr. Crafard. I didn’t even think about it.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me.
Mr. Hubert. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you leave word where you would be?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken $5 out of the till?
Mr. Crafard. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have.
Mr. Hubert. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or something of that sort?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. That required you to leave as hastily as you did?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving any contact points?
Mr. Crafard. Quite frequently; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family or friends?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I believe I wrote my mother and informed her.
Mr. Hubert. This girl Gail knew it?
Mr. Crafard. That is my cousin.
Mr. Hubert. That is your cousin?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time.
Mr. Hubert. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got at the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. I didn’t even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to the people. I hadn’t been getting any answers. My mother doesn’t write an awful lot, and I hadn’t got any letters from my cousin for a little while. My sister hadn’t answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just——
Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you going out with a girl that you had gotten fairly close to by that time?
Mr. Crafard. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and, as far as I know, went out to California.
Mr. Hubert. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart was normal in your life?
Mr. Crafard. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take off and go.
Mr. Hubert. You have done that before?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Many times?
Mr. Crafard. I’ve done it two or three times I can recall. I usually leave from around my people, if I’m around my sister I’ll say something to her that I’m going to take off and where I plan on going. If I leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on going.
Mr. Hubert. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem odd?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd.
Mr. Hubert. Did you communicate that view to anyone?
Mr. Crafard. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so suddenly, without saying anything to anybody.
Mr. Hubert. Did you say that to your cousin, too?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure if I said anything to Gail about that or not.
Mr. Hubert. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on Saturday evening and the manner in which you left.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall saying anything to him about the fact that I thought it might be suspicious.
Mr. Hubert. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some suspicion.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall him saying anything about it, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and tell them where you were?
Mr. Crafard. I didn’t think about that. I figured that if they were looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were looking for me I figured I’d go to the nearest police station and tell them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only thing I thought about on that.
Mr. Hubert. Didn’t you rather know that they were looking for you?
Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t positive that they were. I thought they might be; yes.
Mr. Hubert. You had a pretty good idea that they might be?
Mr. Crafard. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I wasn’t positive.
Mr. Hubert. Wouldn’t you want to find out positive evidence they were looking for you?
Mr. Crafard. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them who I was.
Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by definite evidence?
Mr. Crafard. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought that they might be.
Mr. Hubert. You just told us that you thought that they might be?
Mr. Crafard. That is right; I said that I thought they might be.
Mr. Hubert. That wasn’t enough to cause you to——
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; it isn’t.
Mr. Hubert. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe that I was.
Mr. Hubert. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they were looking for you?
Mr. Crafard. I just figured if it was possible they might put something in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have went in and told them who I was.
Mr. Hubert. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at your sister’s house.
Mr. Crafard. No; but I was at other people’s places that had radios.
Mr. Hubert. You expected to get the information that way?
Mr. Crafard. I didn’t stay with my sister all the time.
Mr. Hubert. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were looking for you?
Mr. Crafard. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on several occasions.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they were looking for you?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where you were?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn’t done anything wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn’t done anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police station and turned myself in.
Mr. Griffin. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong?
Mr. Crafard. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed, shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that anybody else connected with him had done anything.
Mr. Hubert. What made you think in the first place that there might be some suspicion cast upon you?
Mr. Crafard. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn’t leave any word to anybody where I was going or anything.
Mr. Hubert. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like that.
Mr. Hubert. But you had left before Oswald was shot?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot.
Mr. Hubert. So that really your concern was not that they would connect you with the killing of Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. But that——
Mr. Crafard. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself.
Mr. Hubert. With reference to what?
Mr. Crafard. To anything. I mean breaking the law in any way.
Mr. Hubert. With reference to the shooting of the President, too?
Mr. Crafard. How is that?
Mr. Hubert. With reference to shooting of the President?
Mr. Crafard. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any of Ruby’s employees were involved in it, that would further the idea that I had been involved in this, in it.
Mr. Hubert. You actually thought about that?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I felt——
Mr. Hubert. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what you talked to your sister about?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.
Mr. Hubert. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest police force?
Mr. Crafard. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or anything.
Mr. Griffin. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be happening which would get you in trouble?
Mr. Crafard. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that would be the end of it and he would come to trial.
Mr. Griffin. Did you fear that things might be happening which would get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was to get out of there?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the police station.
Mr. Hubert. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald, didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the President’s murderer?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.
Mr. Hubert. You see the point now, don’t you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I believe everybody else has.
Mr. Griffin. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t really think of anything.
Mr. Griffin. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that would give me any reason to believe that.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today that the man should be in a mental institution.
Mr. Griffin. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing what he did, or from some other facts?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his belly and pulling the trigger.
Mr. Griffin. In a police station?
Mr. Crafard. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is in his right mind doing so.
Mr. Griffin. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had that Jack wasn’t in his right mind?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was markedly different?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?
Mr. Crafard. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds before he completed the sentence.
Mr. Griffin. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about Jack being nervous?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; very much that way.
Mr. Griffin. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he were afraid himself?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for himself would be nervous like this; yes.
Mr. Hubert. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. This nervous condition?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop and then talk in a burst again.
Mr. Hubert. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on then?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t understand what you mean by that.
Mr. Hubert. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President. Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on? Isn’t that a fact?
Mr. Crafard. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there was anything going on, period.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?
Mr. Crafard. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.
Mr. Griffin. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say, a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a member of his own family, it seemed to.
Mr. Griffin. There was something he said in that connection?
Mr. Crafard. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned that Officer Tippit had been shot?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club or come to the club just shortly afterward.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think he said he knew him.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did.
Mr. Griffin. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the fact that he said he knew him.
Mr. Griffin. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern over the death of the President was related to his concern for the convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is going to ruin the convention business.
Mr. Crafard. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.
Mr. Griffin. As you look at his activities, do you think that his concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the man himself?
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you know what I mean?
Mr. Griffin. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from some sort of outside event?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied with after the death of the President.
Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I can recall.
Mr. Griffin. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the President?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or something.
Mr. Griffin. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to come back.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I think you told us you had two little cases?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you search around to see that you had done all that needed to be done?
Mr. Crafard. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I left there.
Mr. Hubert. And you left the book?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that I had left there.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s address on it?
Mr. Crafard. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the envelope into the waste basket or something like that.
Mr. Hubert. How long before you left had you received that letter?
Mr. Crafard. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure.
Mr. Hubert. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?
Mr. Crafard. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.
Mr. Hubert. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full.
Mr. Hubert. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in Harrison?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a letter from my cousin.
Mr. Hubert. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?
Mr. Crafard. Gail, Miss Eaton.
Mr. Hubert. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew that?
Mr. Crafard. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said something.
Mr. Hubert. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a record of your aunt’s address?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she lived in Harrison.
Mr. Hubert. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.
Mr. Hubert. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that she lived in Harrison?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?
Mr. Crafard. A first cousin.
Mr. Hubert. Was there any sort of affection between you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; there was.
Mr. Hubert. Had you told that to the girls?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I said something to them about the fact.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had killed Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it. I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done with him.
Mr. Hubert. Did you tell her when you left?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s being shot.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon Saturday.
Mr. Hubert. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about the matter?
Mr. Crafard. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was and that I had been working for Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife, expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about that I might be suspected of anything.
Mr. Hubert. The only one you really talked to about that was your sister?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came, didn’t you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?
Mr. Crafard. Not too much; no.
Mr. Hubert. Had you had any?
Mr. Crafard. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over the news that way.
Mr. Hubert. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed much earlier than when you got to see your sister?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. It was formed when?
Mr. Crafard. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an employee of Ruby’s.
Mr. Hubert. I guess we had better break for lunch.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)