TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LAVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)
Mr. Griffin. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that you would clarify the record on it.
I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George Senator?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What is your view of their relationship?
Mr. Crafard. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that topic, Mr. Hubert?
Mr. Hubert. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I did.
Mr. Hubert. But your point now is that they might be, but that you didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced homosexuality between themselves?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two of them in this way.
Mr. Hubert. All right.
Mr. Griffin. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep secret from other people.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability, whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that activity?
Mr. Crafard. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him, I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of it.
Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?
Mr. Hubert. No.
Mr. Griffin. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.
Would you tell us what that was?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of the car.
Mr. Griffin. That is right.
Mr. Crafard. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was made before I left Dallas.
Mr. Griffin. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?
Mr. Crafard. I thought it had been Andrew.
Mr. Griffin. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You say before you left Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?
Mr. Crafard. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.
Mr. Hubert. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more than I had been with anybody else on that day.
Mr. Hubert. Have you seen Andrew since?
Mr. Crafard. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.
Mr. Hubert. Did you mention it to him, then?
Mr. Crafard. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.
Mr. Hubert. Did he talk to you about it then?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the afternoon of the 23d.
Mr. Crafard. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?
Mr. Crafard. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. Hubert. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Hubert. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody else?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the phone?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. She didn’t mention it to you?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?
Mr. Crafard. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. Hubert. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be Armstrong; isn’t that right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. There is no question about that?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could have gotten it from?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too much. I had a couple of the papers——
Mr. Hubert. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other news media?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to what person that might have been?
Mr. Crafard. No; I cannot.
Mr. Hubert. Would it have been any of your relatives?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Would it have been anybody you worked with?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.
Mr. Griffin. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on television Sunday.
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all the time.
Mr. Griffin. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch television along the way?
Mr. Crafard. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and saw him on the morning after.
Mr. Hubert. On Monday?
Mr. Crafard. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby, when you called him at his home——
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?
Mr. Crafard. Not to talk to anybody; no.
Mr. Griffin. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the assassination?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I recall.
Mr. Griffin. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there was something said about the fact that I worked for Ruby.
Mr. Griffin. Did this man know Jack Ruby?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen Oswald at the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Had he ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. Griffin. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. Some, yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on Friday?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember watching television or listening to the radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was the suspect?
Mr. Crafard. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you heard that?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some detail?
Mr. Crafard. Just a vague outline is all I can do.
Mr. Griffin. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did first, how long you watched television, and so forth.
Mr. Crafard. I had the television on the rest of the day up until about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television off.
Mr. Griffin. Where was the television set located?
Mr. Crafard. In Jack’s office.
Mr. Griffin. How big an office did he have?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have chairs in there?
Mr. Crafard. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.
Mr. Griffin. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office watching television?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into that office and start to watch television?
Mr. Crafard. Almost immediately.
Mr. Griffin. And how long did you stay in there?
Mr. Crafard. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we watched television.
Mr. Griffin. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. You say you stood in front of the television?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, we stood and watched the television.
Mr. Griffin. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch television?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How long did you stand there?
Mr. Crafard. Just a couple of minutes.
Mr. Griffin. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?
Mr. Crafard. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.
Mr. Griffin. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television set?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the television set?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Was there a telephone in that office?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How far away, how many extensions were there to the telephone?
Mr. Crafard. There was three of them altogether.
Mr. Griffin. There were three extensions or was there a telephone——
Mr. Crafard. The telephone and two extensions.
Mr. Griffin. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to the telephone in Jack’s office?
Mr. Crafard. There was one by the bar and one by the door.
Mr. Griffin. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of those?
Mr. Crafard. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20, maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about 10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.
Mr. Griffin. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television set?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing, do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things transpired on television?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital.
Mr. Griffin. Pardon?
Mr. Crafard. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the television on.
Mr. Griffin. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards during that day.
Mr. Griffin. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby came into the club?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t really recall what we saw on television.
Mr. Griffin. While you were, between the time you turned that television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just watch TV?
Mr. Crafard. We just watched television.
Mr. Griffin. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in his office?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Griffin. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?
Mr. Crafard. We went out by the front door.
Mr. Griffin. Why was that?
Mr. Crafard. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.
Mr. Griffin. Could you watch television from the front door?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there by the front door?
Mr. Crafard. Andy had his transistor radio on.
Mr. Griffin. How long would you say it was between the time that you and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?
Mr. Crafard. I couldn’t really say.
Mr. Griffin. Was there a clock in Jack’s office?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were watching television?
Mr. Crafard. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it.
Mr. Griffin. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t, there.
Mr. Griffin. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal of any sort, any food?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you sat and watched it?
Mr. Crafard. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything.
Mr. Griffin. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you recall if she came?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t
Mr. Griffin. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same as saying that she didn’t come in?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would you, that she didn’t come in?
Mr. Crafard. I would not make that statement.
Mr. Griffin. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for example?
Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them came into the club, but I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5, 10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Griffin. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long as 10 minutes?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?
Mr. Crafard. We was right beside the telephone.
Mr. Griffin. Was that the one near the door?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one at the bar?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?
Mr. Crafard. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we could hear, but we was talking.
Mr. Griffin. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long pauses in the conversation?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped, we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a couple of hours.
Mr. Griffin. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the club?
Mr. Crafard. He might have been; yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his office and watch television?
Mr. Crafard. I believe we did; yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with Jack in his office watching television?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his office to watch television?
Mr. Crafard. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came before we went back into the office.
Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about the dog that you were going to send to California?
Mr. Crafard. Not on that day, no.
Mr. Griffin. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I would have, I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a fair statement?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when that shock hit you.
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you admitted it was a shock.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who told it to you, or was anybody else present?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is very vague in my mind.
Mr. Hubert. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us a bit more as to who actually told you?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was before I left Dallas.
Mr. Hubert. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us it had to be Armstrong?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at another time unless it was the truth.
Mr. Crafard. I realize that.
Mr. Hubert. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted out of it.
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. That is not true?
Mr. Crafard. No, sir; that is not true.
Mr. Hubert. You say that is not true even if it is possible that Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. Crafard. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.
Mr. Hubert. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious thought.
Mr. Crafard. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought about for any period of time. It would have been something that I had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on a conscious level I will say no.
Mr. Hubert. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well, how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t you?
Mr. Crafard. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall; no.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about Ruby being involved with him.
Mr. Hubert. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being involved until Monday morning.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are concerned?
Mr. Crafard. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. Hubert. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other things, it had to be Armstrong.
Mr. Crafard. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think about this statement?
Mr. Crafard. No; I can’t.
Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives in Michigan about it?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do you think you would have remembered that kind of information being conveyed to you?
Mr. Crafard. I might have remembered something about the fact that one of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said it.
Mr. Griffin. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?
Mr. Crafard. It would have been that——
Mr. Griffin. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who said that?
Mr. Crafard. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally that I knew of.
Mr. Hubert. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you out.
If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel, before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one reaction on you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald, I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been different depending upon when you heard it?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it would have been; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you accept my version that there would be two different types along the lines I have said?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe there would have been.
Mr. Hubert. What was your reaction, the first or the second?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t really remember.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day——
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection between Ruby and Oswald.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did not.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.
Mr. Hubert. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I didn’t recall it.
Mr. Hubert. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you if you knew of any connection between them?
Mr. Crafard. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I didn’t remember the fact.
Mr. Hubert. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them, didn’t they?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe they did.
Mr. Hubert. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in the club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe they did.
Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that?
Mr. Crafard. I evidently didn’t remember it.
Mr. Hubert. But you have already stated that this thing made a great impression upon you.
Mr. Crafard. I know that, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Larry—— Mr. Hubert. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the club?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he might have. My answer would have been——
Mr. Hubert. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that he had been in the club?
Mr. Crafard. My statement is that it did not at that time.
Mr. Griffin. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with you?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas might make you a suspect of some sort?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe—I don’t remember having any such belief; no.
Mr. Griffin. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to you?
Mr. Crafard. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby’s movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help them in their investigation.
Mr. Griffin. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the motivation for Jack’s doing what he did?
Mr. Crafard. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald.
Mr. Griffin. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you had?
Mr. Crafard. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now, it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. Griffin. But in spite of having that opinion that there was somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. I have considered the fact that there was a connection; yes.
Mr. Griffin. When did you start to think about this?
Mr. Crafard. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. Griffin. In trying to think about that connection, have you been thinking about this rather regularly since then?
Mr. Crafard. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost forgot about it entirely.
Mr. Griffin. How long would you say it has been that you have been—have forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. Well, I have just almost completely—I haven’t had a thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget about it.
Mr. Griffin. How about when you started to work in the oil field up there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember doing so; no.
Mr. Griffin. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might have told you that Oswald had been at the club?
Mr. Crafard. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald had been in the club, but I haven’t given that fact too much thought until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas.
Mr. Griffin. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the statement made and when you first remembered it again.
Mr. Crafard. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact that he had been in the club two or three times.
Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall it doing so; no.
Mr. Griffin. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are giving us here is simply something that you really didn’t hear anybody tell you but that you just read in the newspapers?
Mr. Crafard. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn’t know for sure.
Mr. Griffin. You are not sure now whether you independently remember somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from somebody telling you or from the newspaper?
Mr. Crafard. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been, after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald, somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard that he had been in the club.
Mr. Hubert. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say, you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had heard it after he shot him.
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry, to see what—to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with me on that.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I do. I believe that—I am not sure whether it was hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the television or something like that. It was something about the statement where I said that if he had been I didn’t know about it, and I didn’t believe Jack did either or something of that effect.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you heard this you made a comment?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Hubert. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr. Hubert. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn’t seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn’t believe that Ruby did it?
Mr. Crafard. I didn’t believe that Ruby had saw him in the club.
Mr. Hubert. That must have been then after Ruby was involved?
Mr. Crafard. It must have been; yes.
Mr. Hubert. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. So, according to that it couldn’t have been before you left Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. According to that; yes.
Mr. Griffin. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your mind about the man?
Mr. Crafard. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it.
Mr. Griffin. Why was that? Was there something about Jack——
Mr. Crafard. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.
Mr. Griffin. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out and kill.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a thing.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally, terribly emotionally, upset about the President?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.
Mr. Griffin. Or is that Saturday morning?
Mr. Crafard. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard, that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard about it.
Mr. Griffin. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack, there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more grief stricken than any of the rest of you?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing his emotions?
Mr. Crafard. Not so far as I know; no.
Mr. Griffin. How about concealing his hostility toward other people, did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward other people?
Mr. Crafard. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.
Mr. Griffin. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in a while.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?
Mr. Crafard. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to leave the club and not to come back again.
Mr. Griffin. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about whom he was annoyed or upset with?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his sister Eva?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can remember; no.
Mr. Griffin. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and Jack?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?
Mr. Crafard. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr. Weinstein they got along fairly good.
Mr. Griffin. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward, that he would only display this in the presence of that person in solving some problem with the individual face to face?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Hubert. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the exact time; no.
Mr. Hubert. Well, about?
Mr. Crafard. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later.
Mr. Hubert. Did he leave before Jack left?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was after Jack left.
Mr. Hubert. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the courthouse in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about Oswald.
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure; sir.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a newspaper?
Mr. Crafard. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or that it was believed that he had?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing, weren’t you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I imagine.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?”
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had been told that Oswald had been in the club.
Mr. Hubert. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?
Mr. Crafard. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered it.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?
Mr. Crafard. I have been doing so right along.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that.
Mr. Griffin. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook, and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it. Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.
Mr. Crafard. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for identification.)
Mr. Griffin. What makes you believe that?
Mr. Crafard. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.
Mr. Griffin. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.”
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And then there are what you call tear sheets.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Griffin. What does the first one say?
Mr. Crafard. “Jot it down....”
Mr. Griffin. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?
Mr. Crafard. “Do it....”
Mr. Griffin. The third?
Mr. Crafard. “Tear it out....”
Mr. Griffin. And the fourth?
Mr. Crafard. “Live notes only.”
Mr. Griffin. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on the front cover?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?
Mr. Crafard. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting.
Mr. Griffin. You believe it is his handwriting?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Griffin. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?
Mr. Crafard. No; it is not.
Mr. Griffin. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I do.
Mr. Griffin. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize any of them.
Mr. Crafard. There are a few in there I know the names of.
Mr. Griffin. How about Sandy?
Mr. Crafard. That has no meaning to me.
Mr. Griffin. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Sue Pepper?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she had been a stripper.
Mr. Griffin. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Have you heard some talk about her?
Mr. Crafard. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a stripper.
Mr. Griffin. Caroline Walker?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Strike that. Jack Yanover?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Caroline Walker?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Harold Tannebaum?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Margaret Caldwell?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?
Mr. Crafard. I would say Dial.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. James Herbert?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Jules Herbert?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can remember.
Mr. Griffin. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?
Mr. Crafard. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper.
Mr. Griffin. How about Gigi?
Mr. Crafard. She was a stripper.
Mr. Griffin. But not employed there while you were there?
Mr. Crafard. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard mention of the name.
Mr. Griffin. How about Wally Rack?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember the name.
Mr. Griffin. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t, sir.
Mr. Griffin. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?
Mr. Crafard. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of that person?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Betty Robbins?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can remember.
Mr. Griffin. How about Iwana Birdwell?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that.
Mr. Griffin. How about Ferris?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. How about Skip Hutcheson?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort of performed the job you did before you came?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the time——
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How about Lynd Chenalt?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. How about W. O. Chenalt?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Is this Brenda?
Mr. Crafard. It appears to be, yes.
Mr. Griffin. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember of any.
Mr. Griffin. And is that Augie?
Mr. Crafard. It looks like it.
Mr. Griffin. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie?
Mr. Crafard. No; the name means nothing to me.
Mr. Griffin. How about John, is that Rogers?
Mr. Crafard. I would say so. It don’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Shirley Bruce?
Mr. Crafard. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name would have been Little Lynn’s correct name.
Mr. Griffin. Well, her correct name was Bruce?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. I thought her last name was Carlin?
Mr. Crafard. Her husband’s name.
Mr. Griffin. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis?
Mr. Crafard. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t put any meaning to it.
Mr. Griffin. Did he play in the band?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; he was one of the band players.
Mr. Griffin. At the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Gino Skaggs?
Mr. Crafard. Means nothing to me.
Mr. Griffin. Dottie Walters?
Mr. Crafard. That means nothing to me.
Mr. Griffin. Barbara Brown?
Mr. Crafard. That means nothing to me.
Mr. Griffin. Tom Palmer?
Mr. Crafard. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters at the club for him. That is all I know.
Mr. Griffin. What had been his employment?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Was he connected with AGVA?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How about Sandra Moran?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr. Crafard. She was one of the strippers while I was there.
Mr. Griffin. And Andy?
Mr. Crafard. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe.
Mr. Griffin. How about Andrea Dalk?
Mr. Crafard. The name means nothing.
Mr. Griffin. How about this Kathy?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name at all.
Mr. Griffin. How about Lorri Womack?
Mr. Crafard. The name doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. How about Margaret?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Here is Judy Oberlin?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the name.
Mr. Griffin. George, Sherman, Tex.?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall the name.
Mr. Griffin. Betty Kelley?
Mr. Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. Mike Eberhardt?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. Russ Knight?
Mr. Crafard. Russ Knight—that doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. Charles Senator?
Mr. Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. The House of Loan?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. How about Jeannie?
Mr. Crafard. Jeanine.
Mr. Griffin. Jeanine.
Mr. Crafard. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there.
Mr. Griffin. What name did she strip under?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used a French last name. She was of French descent.
Mr. Griffin. Ralph Paul?
Mr. Crafard. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Griffin. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No. 985?
Mr. Crafard. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next one.
Mr. Griffin. Of course, we have talked about George. Johnny Hayden?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. Joy Herrod?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Joe Slayton?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Wally Weston?
Mr. Crafard. He was the comedian, I believe. Jack employed him for a short while.
Mr. Griffin. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some building repairs for him?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that. Corrigan, doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Chuck Isaacs?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. I can’t read this.
Mr. Crafard. Davis Kitter—something.
Mr. Griffin. Kitter something or other.
Mr. Crafard. It looks like.
Mr. Griffin. But you don’t recognize that?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Earl Wilson?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Tony Turner?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me either.
Mr. Griffin. Tom Busch?
Mr. Crafard. No; it doesn’t mean anything to me either.
Mr. Griffin. Joe Cook?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Barbara Hickman?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Tammi True?
Mr. Crafard. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn’t know what Kay that would be?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. How about Nicki?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Dolores Meridith?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Wiliford Jackson?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Phil Olian?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean a thing to me.
Mr. Griffin. Wendy Knight?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Wanda?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Janice Anderson?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Ann Petta?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr. Crafard. Nothing.
Mr. Griffin. Jim Brown?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing I believe he had a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in the past.
Mr. Griffin. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico?
Mr. Crafard. She was either from Mexico or South America.
Mr. Griffin. How long ago had he employed this stripper?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her name on it, Spanish name.
Mr. Griffin. Billie?
Mr. Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. Toni Rebel?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the stage.
Mr. Griffin. Bill Towney?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector. Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that?
Mr. Crafard. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take a polygraph test. I don’t know whether that was Affiliated or what.
Mr. Griffin. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it?
Mr. Crafard. It was hung on the front of the cash register.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a polygraph test?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr. Griffin. Shirley Nole?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. Griffin. Margo Larve?
Mr. Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. Griffin. Kitty Keel?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Mary Martin?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Gail or Carol?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Gail Thompson?
Mr. Crafard. Nothing.
Mr. Griffin. Margie?
Mr. Crafard. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one waitress.
Mr. Griffin. Peggy Steele?
Mr. Crafard. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked there at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. John M. Crawford?
Mr. Crafard. It means nothing to me.
Mr. Griffin. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever hear him talk about anybody?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Linda?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Avrum?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Sherry?
Mr. Crafard. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Henry Segel?
Mr. Crafard. He would—Segel as it is used there wouldn’t mean anything to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know of a Segel that Jack——
Mr. Crafard. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where he bought champagne and other wines.
Mr. Griffin. Roy Pike?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Lisa Starling?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Stewart’s Photo?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Gail Hall, Monroe, La.
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Luke of the Times Herald?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. H. G. Tiger?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. E. Fletcher?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Darrell Williams?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Vivian?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Statler Barbershop.
Mr. Crafard. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton.
Mr. Griffin. Is that where Jack got his hair cut?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Dovie?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1 through 9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this, “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April 9, 1964,” and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that? It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word “Addresses.” It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me whether you have ever seen that?
Mr. Crafard. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had, kept, in his drawer in his desk.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for identification.)
Mr. Griffin. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your Penway Spiral into?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203 you believe Jack kept in his pocket?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204, you believe he kept in his desk?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one was in his desk.
Mr. Griffin. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. But he didn’t have the larger Penway notebook until——
Mr. Crafard. Until after I went to work for him.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6 inches long, and about 4½ inches wide.
Mr. Griffin. Now, let us look at these names in here.
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recognize any.
Mr. Griffin. You don’t recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil Hamlin?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I know of.
Mr. Griffin. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are?
Mr. Crafard. Century Distributors, Inc.?
Mr. Griffin. Yes; what are they?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any prizefighters?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I knew of.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that name.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. L. J. McWillie?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember him.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever meeting any other people with Jack?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce McDonald?
Mr. Crafard. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there with her?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t—it seems like there was a couple of men with them, but I was never introduced to them.
Mr. Griffin. I will state for the record that this notebook which we have consists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which is marked “Addresses,” and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20, two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost 40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been marked as “Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964,” and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in which that photograph was taken?
Mr. Crafard. It appears to be the Carousel Club.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for identification.)
Mr. Griffin. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. You can just see the portion of the runway across here.
Mr. Griffin. This is in the lower left-hand corner?
Mr. Crafard. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway.
Mr. Griffin. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. I see one of the waitresses back in the background. I can’t make out which one it is on the upper right-hand portion, standing holding a tray, but I can’t make out who it is though.
Mr. Griffin. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club before?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. I don’t recall seeing him at all.
Mr. Griffin. Is that picture of yourself?
Mr. Crafard. No; definitely not.
Mr. Griffin. Why do you say definitely not?
Mr. Crafard. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit.
Mr. Griffin. You always wore a suit?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a gold livery jacket on.
Mr. Griffin. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am.
Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of identification as “Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard. April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5206,” and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the place where that photograph was taken?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the center runway.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for identification.)
Mr. Griffin. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know?
Mr. Crafard. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the left side.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr. Crafard. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True.
Mr. Griffin. Blond hair?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What is—how about the man who appears to be dressed in a tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him?
Mr. Crafard. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt?
Mr. Crafard. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the—his photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow.
Mr. Griffin. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked there?
Mr. Crafard. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they was doing when this picture was taken.
Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us what that depicts?
Mr. Crafard. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say; they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel, and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were doing at that time; giving away prizes.
Mr. Griffin. Do they give away prizes every night?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; weekends mostly.
Mr. Griffin. How about during the week?
Mr. Crafard. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size of the crowd.
Mr. Griffin. Where did Jack get his prizes?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr. Griffin. Did he give away twist boards?
Mr. Crafard. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals.
Mr. Griffin. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a raffle or different nights?
Mr. Crafard. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have, give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their choices out of the prizes.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you what I have marked as “C. L. Crafard, April 1964, 5207,” and I have signed my name to it. That is a photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken?
Mr. Crafard. It was taken in Mr. Ruby’s office.
Mr. Griffin. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time that you worked there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot see it.
Mr. Griffin. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set?
Mr. Crafard. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of them, the TV set in the corner over this way.
Mr. Griffin. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby’s position in the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner?
Mr. Crafard. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left.
Mr. Griffin. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my room.
Mr. Griffin. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk through Jack’s office?
Mr. Crafard. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was a connecting door from his office to my room.
Mr. Griffin. Where is the door that enters Jack’s office?
Mr. Crafard. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the right-hand side, who is Little Lynn.
Mr. Griffin. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the wall or at one end of the wall?
Mr. Crafard. More or less to the end of the wall.
Mr. Griffin. Let’s mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back. And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary?
Mr. Crafard. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put them on.
Mr. Griffin. What kind of papers did he keep up there?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up on kind of a wire peg that he put them on.
Mr. Griffin. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was that photograph taken at the Carousel Club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. Do you want me to describe it?
Mr. Griffin. Yes; would you?
Mr. Crafard. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I should say.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when that photograph was taken?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the date, but this photograph would have been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine taking pictures. It would have been taken by him.
Mr. Griffin. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage?
Mr. Crafard. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a couple of evenings.
Mr. Griffin. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever recall Jack going up on stage?
Mr. Crafard. No. It wasn’t his custom.
Mr. Griffin. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in the photograph?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that was taken?
Mr. Crafard. No; I don’t. It wasn’t taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. And do you recognize anybody in the picture?
Mr. Crafard. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were looking at the costume she had on, wasn’t anything I remembered.
Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. Crafard. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are?
Mr. Crafard. A stripper. I don’t remember her name right now.
Mr. Griffin. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl?
Mr. Crafard. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks like Tammi True.
Mr. Griffin. There are dogs in that—dachshund dogs in that photograph?
Mr. Crafard. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a photography stunt more than anything.
Mr. Griffin. Were they regularly used in acts?
Mr. Crafard. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less like, say, for a photographic stunt.
Mr. Griffin. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were on, while an act was in progress?
Mr. Crafard. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I’d take them off when it was over.
Mr. Griffin. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the customer area, also be?
Mr. Crafard. Just the stage.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in progress?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Could you see faces in the audience?
Mr. Crafard. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were sitting right next, and then you wouldn’t recognize them.
Mr. Griffin. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the stage?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And there were——
Mr. Crafard. Excuse me a minute, please.
Mr. Griffin. Yes.
Mr. Crafard. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at that time.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who he was?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself, but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing there.
Mr. Griffin. This picture that you are looking at, this large photograph, is actually a series of small photographs?
Mr. Crafard. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs where you can just vaguely see me.
Mr. Griffin. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, that set of photographs?
Mr. Crafard. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first series. I can see Johnny on the stage again.
The next one shows Johnny.
The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr. Griffin. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is shown?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember his name. He was to the club on several different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one.
In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them.
And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack’s office holding some stuffed animals.
The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of his puppets.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. Crafard. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in.
Mr. Griffin. Did you associate any name with this man?
Mr. Crafard. I can’t remember his name, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in the notebooks today?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember. I wouldn’t remember his name if I saw it.
Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy Armstrong know him?
Mr. Crafard. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in the same place.
There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs.
Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures?
Mr. Crafard. The stripper is Little Lynn.
Mr. Griffin. In all of the pictures?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the patrons?
Mr. Crafard. Only myself.
Mr. Griffin. Where are you?
Mr. Crafard. This doesn’t look like me.
Mr. Griffin. Is that you?
Mr. Crafard. No; it is not me at all.
Mr. Griffin. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that your photograph appears in a number of these pictures.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is seated second from the left along the runway.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the same position?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. The picture immediately below that which is the third from the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And the stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in the same position third from the bottom?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And the same position at the bottom?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt, also.
Mr. Griffin. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit?
Mr. Crafard. During the day, up until about 5 o’clock, I was normally dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn’t care to wear a suit.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5213.
Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Will you look at these pictures and tell me looking at the picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is?
Mr. Crafard. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets.
Mr. Griffin. And in the photograph right below that there are two girls. Who is the blond?
Mr. Crafard. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room. The next photograph is the same.
The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on stage.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t; except on the top picture on the right-hand corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same position as before.
On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo.
The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets.
Mr. Griffin. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the time?
Mr. Crafard. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes.
Mr. Griffin. And the only other employees he had at that particular time were strippers or entertainers?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; strippers and the waitresses.
Mr. Griffin. So let me understand this. That while you were there, Billy DeMar was employed there?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Wally Weston?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Johnny Turner?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And anyone else?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was all. I can’t remember who the M.C. was when I first went to work for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Was it a different one other than the three we have mentioned?
Mr. Crafard. I am not sure. That is what I was trying to remember.
Mr. Griffin. Did these M.C.’s have a regular run of a prescribed number of weeks that they would play?
Mr. Crafard. No; maybe they might come in for 2 or 3 weeks, or they might be there for 1 week and then they might stay for 3 or 4 months. It would depend on the contract that they signed with Mr. Ruby.
Mr. Griffin. Did Buddy Heard ever come and appear?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe he was ever there while I was there.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 5214 and I want to ask you if you recognize any of the patrons in those photographs.
Mr. Crafard. The heavy set gentleman that has been mentioned before is in the second photograph in the left-hand series. He is in the first photograph in the middle series. That is all. But other than that, I don’t recognize any of the other patrons.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you now what has been marked as 5214-A and all the markings are in the same fashion as the previous ones. Do you recognize any of the patrons in there?
Mr. Crafard. The patron in the second and third photographs on the right-hand side looks familiar but I can’t place him.
Mr. Griffin. What I am handing you is Exhibit 5215 which is also marked in the same fashion as the others. Do you recognize any of the patrons there?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. I show you Exhibit 5216. You will notice that this appears to be the interior of a dressing room and there is some sort of a plaque on the wall in the top two photographs in the center and the photograph in the lower right-hand corner. Do you recall what that plaque is?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr. Griffin. Can you state whether that picture was taken at the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now, do you recognize those as Carousel Club dressing rooms?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes. The dressing rooms have been redecorated since I worked there, I know that.
Mr. Griffin. Did the dressing rooms look as they appear in that photograph at any time while you were employed at the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe that is the dressing room of the Carousel. I don’t remember this stuff along the bottom picture, the left-hand side of the bottom picture in the left-hand column. The plywood door that is shown in several pictures, I don’t recognize that as being of the dressing room at the Carousel.
Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion as Exhibit 5217. Do you recognize the patron that is shown in that photograph?
Mr. Crafard. No, I don’t, but I believe from this picture I can pretty well state that that other last picture was photographs of the girls’ dressing room, from the location of the table. Instead of a door that was a window that had been boarded up.
Mr. Griffin. I show you Exhibit 5218 which has been marked in the same fashion. Do you recognize any of the patrons in that photograph?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. How about Exhibit 5219 which has been marked in the same fashion? Do you recognize any of those patrons?
Mr. Crafard. Only that I believe this one has been showed in previous pictures.
Mr. Griffin. Is this a duplicate of something we already have?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe it is a duplicate, but I believe this gentleman in the white shirt has been shown in previous pictures.
Mr. Griffin. How about 5220? Do you recognize any of the patrons there?
Mr. Crafard. Only this one gentleman here. I can make him out especially in the bottom picture in the middle column.
Mr. Griffin. With the white shirt on?
Mr. Crafard. The gentleman with the short-sleeved white shirt on I can recognize him from the previous pictures.
Mr. Griffin. But you don’t have a recollection of who he is?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t have a recollection of who he is. I don’t think I ever knew the gentleman.
Mr. Griffin. Now, Exhibit 5221, do you recognize any of the patrons in there?
Mr. Crafard. Only the gentleman on the right-hand would be the back down in the picture towards the right-hand side would be the far side of the stage the heavy set gentlemen that has been mentioned before.
Mr. Griffin. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever know a man named Bernard Weissman?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear Ruby or anybody indicate that Officer Tippit was ever in the Carousel Club?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember of hearing any indication.
Mr. Griffin. How about that Bernard Weissman? Was he in the Carousel Club?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember any indication of that, either.
Mr. Griffin. Have you ever owned a gun?
Mr. Crafard. I had a pistol, but it was in Oregon when I was in Texas.
Mr. Griffin. What kind of a pistol was that?
Mr. Crafard. A .22.
Mr. Griffin. Have you ever owned any other sort of a gun?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. When you were in military service, did you have any training with a rifle?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had training with the M-1 rifle and with the M-1 carbine.
Mr. Griffin. When you were in Dallas, Tex., did you ever have any occasion to go out to any rifle ranges?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to any rifle ranges?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Your answer is you don’t know?
Mr. Crafard. I did not know.
Mr. Griffin. While you were in Dallas, Tex., did you attempt to purchase an automobile?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you visit any used car lots?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever drive Jack Ruby’s car?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you drive an automobile at any time while you were in Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever accompany anybody in an automobile to have it repaired?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Now, I believe when you talked with the FBI, you indicated that you visited a store with Jack where he was going to get some electrical or electronic equipment.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How soon was that after you began to work for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. I think it was about 3 or 4 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. When you talk about working for Jack, do you mean that to include the time that you were working at the Dallas, Tex., State Fair?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. As working for Jack?
Mr. Crafard. Only the time, from the time the State fair closed.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what kind of electrical equipment Jack was purchasing, looking for when you went with him?
Mr. Crafard. Some speakers and—that is the boxes that are used to work a speaker out of, the amplifier box.
Mr. Griffin. Where was he going to use these items?
Mr. Crafard. In the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. Had he had those items there before?
Mr. Crafard. He had the items in the Carousel Club, but he was going to replace them with some better models.
Mr. Griffin. Were his existing models defective in any way?
Mr. Crafard. There was always something going wrong with one speaker or the other.
Mr. Griffin. Did he actually replace these?
Mr. Crafard. Not while I was there; no.
Mr. Griffin. What happened at the electronics store that you visited?
Mr. Crafard. He talked with the gentleman for a few minutes and I believe he give them a free pass to the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. What did he do in connection with buying equipment?
Mr. Crafard. He had checked out some equipment they had there, their prices, the types of equipment.
Mr. Griffin. What price range of equipment was he talking about?
Mr. Crafard. He was wanting to get a better model amplifier as cheaply as he could.
Mr. Griffin. Would this have been an expenditure of over $100?
Mr. Crafard. I really don’t know, but I don’t believe so. Could I go back a little bit to the day. I believe that was about a week after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. Griffin. Now you testified yesterday I think that the girl whom you identified in some pictures taken on the street outside the Carousel with Jack Ruby, you identified this girl as Gloria McDonald.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Could her name have been Gloria Fillmore?
Mr. Crafard. Her name could have been, yes.
Mr. Griffin. Are you sure about the name McDonald?
Mr. Crafard. No. In fact if I may be allowed to say so, I am not positive that this girl is the girl I knew as Gloria. Her name could have been something entirely different. I believe it was Gloria.
Mr. Griffin. You believe it was Gloria in this picture?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Griffin. But you are not completely positive.
Mr. Crafard. No. I never knew her last name.
Mr. Griffin. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit. Going back to Wednesday, November 20, 2 days before the President was killed, and Thursday, November 21, do you remember on either of those 2 days receiving any telephone calls from Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Crafard. I believe Bruce called the evening of Wednesday, the 20th wanting to speak to Little Lynn. I am not positive but I believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Now how about on the 21st. Do you remember anything on the 21st?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall anything, no. He might have but I don’t recall.
Mr. Griffin. Do you ever remember on the 21st a telephone call being placed to Jack Ruby in the early portion of the evening, and your answering the phone and talking to the person on the phone?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. Griffin. Did Bruce Carlin ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby in your recollection?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember him ever doing so.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet any of Bruce Carlin’s friends?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever meet a boy named Jerry Bunker?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. Griffin. Did Bruce used to call the Carousel regularly?
Mr. Crafard. No. There was only one or two occasions when I am sure that Bruce called the club.
Mr. Griffin. When are the other occasions?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was the evening of Wednesday the 20th Little Lynn hadn’t went straight home from the club and he called asking, wanting to know where she was at.
Mr. Griffin. Did you have any idea of the financial condition of Little Lynn or Bruce Carlin the week before the President died?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did Little Lynn ever complain in your presence about not having enough money?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that when she first went to work for Jack, Jack either gave her an advance or loaned her some money, one or the other.
Mr. Griffin. I recall yesterday in your talking with Mr. Hubert there was some problem you felt that you had lost 8 hours in describing what happened on your trip from Dallas to your destination in Michigan.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. In the time that has passed since then, have you been able to find those 8 hours that were lost?
Mr. Crafard. Pretty well, yes.
Mr. Griffin. What do you think happened?
Mr. Crafard. I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City and spent quite a bit of time getting back. There is where I lost the time.
Mr. Griffin. About what time did you arrive in Oklahoma City?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 7 o’clock in the evening of the 23d.
Mr. Griffin. And how did you happen to get mixed up on your routes?
Mr. Crafard. I got a ride with this gentleman and I believe he said something about getting me out on my route or something like that, and I got mixed up on my route.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ride with him in the wrong direction for a while?
Mr. Crafard. He took me out, he took me quite a ways more than where I had to go.
Mr. Griffin. On that basis what time would you say that you arrived in Chicago?
Mr. Crafard. It probably would put me in Chicago sometime Monday, about 10:30 or 11 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. Griffin. When you arrived in Chicago, then you knew that Ruby had killed Oswald?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And what time did you arrive in Lansing, Mich.?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was about 6:30 or 7 o’clock Monday evening.
Mr. Griffin. When you arrived in Chicago did you make any effort to call any of the Rubensteins?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did that occur to you?
Mr. Crafard. No; that arrival in Lansing would have been about 3:30 or 4 o’clock. It would have been a couple hours earlier.
Mr. Griffin. You mentioned that the ride that you had got out of Dallas on the 23d with a man whom you had met at the Dallas State Fair.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What did he do at the Dallas State Fair?
Mr. Crafard. There was a photography place on the fairgrounds. He worked there.
Mr. Griffin. Was he a full-time employee at the fairgrounds or was this a temporary thing?
Mr. Crafard. I believe this was just temporary for the fair.
Mr. Griffin. What was the name of the photography place?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Were there a number of different photographers at the fair?
Mr. Crafard. I believe there was two or three different ones at the fairgrounds. This one was right close to the place I worked was located.
Mr. Griffin. How far would it have been from a tent? Were you in a tent?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. How far would it have been from your tent?
Mr. Crafard. About 150 or 200 feet.
Mr. Griffin. In which direction?
Mr. Crafard. It would have been down on the main midway. It would have been right on a corner of the main midway and the portion of the midway I was on. We were located on a branch off the main midway.
Mr. Griffin. How old would you say this man was?
Mr. Crafard. I would say he was probably in at least his middle forties, more likely in his late forties.
Mr. Griffin. Was he bald or did he have hair?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t really remember.
Mr. Griffin. Was he a graying man or what color was his hair?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember that either.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if he wore glasses?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what kind of a car he owned?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he had a Chevy. I am not sure.
Mr. Griffin. How would you describe his physical build, anything remarkable about it?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I could think of.
Mr. Griffin. Was he a thin man?
Mr. Crafard. He was about medium build for a man his age and height.
Mr. Griffin. And you say he had a young boy with him?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; he had a son about I believe 9 or 10 years old.
Mr. Griffin. Did you catch the son’s name?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. How about his name? Did you learn his first name?
Mr. Crafard. I more than likely knew his name but I don’t remember it.
Mr. Griffin. What did he do at the photography studio?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure just what he did do.
Mr. Griffin. Was this a Dallas studio that had a place there?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. Is there some central office of the Dallas State Fair that would keep records of the people who had charge of tents or booths there?
Mr. Crafard. That would be the fair commission would know anyone that had any kind of a stand or concession on the midway.
Mr. Griffin. And where would this commission have its office when the season was not in session?
Mr. Crafard. It would be on the fairgrounds. I am not sure where though.
Mr. Griffin. There is some sort of permanent office there on the fairgrounds?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; the Dallas Fairgrounds is one of the largest fairgrounds in Texas. It is open the year around.
Mr. Griffin. It is your belief that this man knew you worked for Jack Ruby as he was taking you out of Dallas?
Mr. Crafard. Not until after we had got to talking and I told him I had been working at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Griffin. How long would you estimate that you were with that man?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, maybe a half hour or maybe 45 minutes at the most.
Mr. Griffin. And it is your belief that he had a cottage at some sort of a lake?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. What place?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of the lake he lived on, that he had his cottage on.
Mr. Griffin. But you remember somewhat where he left you off and in what direction he had to turn?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he went to the left of 77 when he let me off.
Mr. Griffin. You left Dallas on route 77?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And how far would you say you went on route 77?
Mr. Crafard. We were about 20 miles outside the city limits of Dallas at Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. Griffin. He let you off in Carrollton?
Mr. Crafard. Just the other side of Carrollton a little ways.
Mr. Griffin. North of Carrollton?
Mr. Crafard. Just north. Not very far. It couldn’t have been more than maybe a mile.
Mr. Griffin. Was this some sort of main intersection he let you off at?
Mr. Crafard. I believe so, yes; the main entry for the Carrollton traffic on the north side of town.
Mr. Griffin. You were at route 77 and the corner of some other road?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was just one of the so-called farm roads of Texas. They have got a lot of the roads numbered farm road such and such.
Mr. Griffin. Was there a sign up there that pointed to a lake that this man had to turn to?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. Griffin. Did you get any idea how large a lake it was? Was it a resort area?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall that either, sir. I don’t remember.
Mr. Griffin. But you do recall that the man had a cottage or something of that sort on the lake?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; he was going up to work on his cottage when he picked me up.
Mr. Griffin. We talked at lunchtime about a man who called the Carousel during the week before the President was assassinated.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. And would you tell us about these calls?
Mr. Crafard. Is that the one where I said he wouldn’t give his name or anything?
Mr. Griffin. That is the one I had in mind.
Mr. Crafard. This gentleman would call maybe two or three times a day asking for Jack. He would ask where he could reach Jack. It sounded like it was pretty important that he reach Jack, and that he would never leave a number where Jack could call him back at.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever give this man a number?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall, no.
Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what time of the day or night this man would call?
Mr. Crafard. It would usually be during the day. I can’t recall any specific time.
Mr. Griffin. Did this man ever wake you up?
Mr. Crafard. No; it was always well after 9 o’clock, I know that.
Mr. Griffin. Did it ever appear to be around lunch hour?
Mr. Crafard. It could have been anywhere from 9 o’clock to 6 o’clock.
Mr. Griffin. Did he seem to call at regular times when he called?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Can you describe his voice in terms of age?
Mr. Crafard. No; I couldn’t.
Mr. Griffin. Did this man call on Friday, November 22?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t really remember whether he did or not. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Griffin. How about on the morning of the 23d, Saturday the 23d?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Griffin. Did he call the day before the President was assassinated?
Mr. Crafard. I believe he called sometime in the afternoon of the 21st.
Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong about this man?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I said something to Jack about him and I believe Andy was there when I did.
Mr. Griffin. And what did you say to Jack?
Mr. Crafard. That this guy called several times wanting to get a hold of him, would never leave his name or address or number or anything.
Mr. Griffin. What did Jack say to you?
Mr. Crafard. Jack had told me previously not to give his number to anyone unless I knew who it was.
Mr. Griffin. That is his home number?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, or some other number he left where he could be reached at. He said not to worry about anybody that didn’t leave a phone number, they didn’t want to get in touch with him very bad.
Mr. Griffin. Did he indicate that he knew who this man was who was calling?
Mr. Crafard. I took it for granted he knew who the man was. He never said definitely that he did know who the man was. I think when I told him about it he just said forget it.
Mr. Griffin. You never met this man, did you?
Mr. Crafard. No; if I had met the man I would have known his voice.
Mr. Griffin. How many home telephone numbers did Jack have?
Mr. Crafard. He only had one home number that I knew of.
Mr. Griffin. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of Alexander?
Mr. Crafard. That would have been Andrew.
Mr. Griffin. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made, either because you didn’t tell that to the FBI or because you now upon reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that what you have said before. Let’s figure this will take at least 15 minutes and maybe longer.