Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45 a.m.

Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Senator.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby.

Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you receive that letter?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is the date of it?

Mr. Senator. April 16, 1964.

Mr. Hubert. When did you receive it?

Mr. Senator. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was. What was the date Saturday?

Mr. Hubert. Saturday would have been the 18th.

Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the event that you did not get the full 3 days.

Mr. Senator. We will continue.

Mr. Hubert. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive it.

Mr. Senator. I waive it.

Mr. Hubert. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Senator. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Now will you state your full name?

Mr. Senator. George Senator.

Mr. Hubert. How old are you, Mr. Senator?

Mr. Senator. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. Hubert. And when?

Mr. Senator. September 4, 1913.

Mr. Hubert. What is your present address, that is residence?

Mr. Senator. Right now?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.

Mr. Hubert. Is that your permanent residence?

Mr. Senator. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.

Mr. Hubert. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another place?

Mr. Senator. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do not know where.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home temporarily?

Mr. Senator. Temporarily.

Mr. Hubert. But your purpose is to live in New York?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place to live, move out from your sister’s house?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation, beginning actually with your education.

Mr. Senator. My education was up to the eighth grade.

Mr. Hubert. And where was that?

Mr. Senator. Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. Hubert. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?

Mr. Senator. I moved to New York and went to work.

Mr. Hubert. You mean New York City?

Mr. Senator. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I moved in with my sister at that time.

Mr. Hubert. That is the same sister you are now living with?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is her name, by the way?

Mr. Senator. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live with her?

Mr. Senator. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was only in my teens then.

Mr. Hubert. What sort of work did you do?

Mr. Senator. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.

Mr. Hubert. And you continued in that occupation——

Mr. Senator. Just in my young teens.

Mr. Hubert. Until you were how old?

Mr. Senator. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. You were living with your sister as you said?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of occupation and residence?

Mr. Senator. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance, was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had peritonitis. I went back home again.

Mr. Hubert. This was after age 18 or before?

Mr. Senator. No; this is now after 18.

Mr. Hubert. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or 2 years you were not working because of illness and you were staying mostly with your mother at home?

Mr. Senator. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.

Mr. Hubert. Where? What place was that?

Mr. Senator. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his last name.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you work with him?

Mr. Senator. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. At which time you lived with your mother?

Mr. Senator. Yes, I lived home.

Mr. Hubert. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?

Mr. Senator. I would say around there, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened after those days of your life?

Mr. Senator. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I went back to New York.

Mr. Hubert. City, you mean?

Mr. Senator. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live during that period?

Mr. Senator. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled either from my sister to my mother.

Mr. Hubert. You did not have any residence of your own?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Where did she live during that period?

Mr. Senator. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.

Mr. Hubert. I mean the same address?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you——

Mr. Senator. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think of the numbers.

Mr. Hubert. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.

Mr. Senator. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.

Mr. Hubert. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?

Mr. Senator. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.

Mr. Hubert. Where did she live then?

Mr. Senator. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets, you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks, something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now. I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright.

Mr. Hubert. We understand that and we understand therefore that your answers must be approximations.

Mr. Senator. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the 1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.

Mr. Hubert. That was around 1938, I take it?

Mr. Senator. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the place at which you worked?

Mr. Senator. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand Concourse.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years. Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then we come back again.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Or employers?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many years.

Mr. Hubert. Who were the other two people that you went with?

Mr. Senator. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I can’t remember his name.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or 20 years?

Mr. Senator. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As a matter of fact, I think even before the war.

Mr. Hubert. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And the other one?

Mr. Senator. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work is he doing?

Mr. Senator. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean. He was.

Mr. Hubert. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how, that is 6 years ago?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down there for a vacation there.

Mr. Hubert. And you looked him up?

Mr. Senator. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him he was in the stationery end.

Mr. Hubert. How extended was your visit with him then?

Mr. Senator. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two or three times.

Mr. Hubert. No business relations?

Mr. Senator. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I went back to New York.

Mr. Hubert. And tell us again——

Mr. Senator. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at various times.

Mr. Hubert. Your brother?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Senator. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I worked on and off at his place many times.

Mr. Hubert. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were working for your brother?

Mr. Senator. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany, N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square Cafeteria.

Mr. Hubert. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?

Mr. Senator. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be possible.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. When did you enlist?

Mr. Senator. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.

Mr. Hubert. That was before Pearl Harbor then?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the summer of 1940?

Mr. Senator. What is that?

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until you entered into the service in August of 1941?

Mr. Senator. I believe I was back home with my brother.

Mr. Hubert. That is working for him?

Mr. Senator. The restaurant, yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in the service?

Mr. Senator. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it.

Mr. Hubert. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated copy.

Mr. Senator. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original and I am happy that I have got that.

Mr. Hubert. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center, Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?

Mr. Senator. Yes; when I came out.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Then after you left the service in September of 1945, where did you go and what did you do?

Mr. Senator. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost our shirts.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the Denise Foods, Inc.?

Mr. Senator. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?

Mr. Hubert. 254 West 35th Street.

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That is why I asked you.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and this man you talked about?

Mr. Senator. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.

Mr. Hubert. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of 1946?

Mr. Senator. I would say approximately about that to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. And where did you live then?

Mr. Senator. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married before that or after that.

Mr. Hubert. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you got married?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. Hubert. What was the name of the lady you married?

Mr. Senator. Sherley Baren.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell that?

Mr. Senator. B-a-r-e-n.

Mr. Hubert. Are you still married to her?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Are you divorced?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When? Approximately.

Mr. Senator. Approximately about 7 years.

Mr. Hubert. Ago?

Mr. Senator. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say approximately about that.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you lived together as man and wife approximately for 10 years?

Mr. Senator. No, no.

Mr. Hubert. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long. Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.

Mr. Senator. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.

Mr. Hubert. Before the divorce?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I think that is it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any children of that marriage?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.

Mr. Hubert. He is now 16 years old?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is his name?

Mr. Senator. Bobby.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you divorced?

Mr. Senator. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.

Mr. Hubert. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?

Mr. Senator. In Miami.

Mr. Hubert. She brought the divorce suit?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Has she remarried?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know to whom?

Mr. Senator. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know where they live?

Mr. Senator. Coral Gables.

Mr. Hubert. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?

Mr. Senator. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs there.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. At these jobs, do you mean?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Senator. Or Miami?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a rough guess, something like that, offhand.

Mr. Hubert. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got there; is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work did you do?

Mr. Senator. Restaurant-type work.

Mr. Hubert. I notice that your social security records indicate that you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year. Can you explain that?

Mr. Senator. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. Hubert. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second quarters——

Mr. Senator. Of 1948?

Mr. Hubert. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of 1948 there were no earnings reported.

Mr. Senator. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. Hubert. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H.

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January, February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.

Mr. Senator. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That was an open stand on the oceanfront.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the first 6 months?

Mr. Senator. At the Hensroost?

Mr. Hubert. Of 1947.

Mr. Senator. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I know that I worked there.

Mr. Hubert. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the intervening year that I would like to have you cover.

Mr. Senator. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that was.

Mr. Hubert. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory. Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year, but I remember going, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I went there for one summer.

Mr. Hubert. For the season?

Mr. Senator. The season; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Your wife went with you?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. She stayed in Miami?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When you finished the season there, what happened?

Mr. Senator. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year was that, 1940-what?

Mr. Hubert. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate that you worked for T-A Troops.

Mr. Senator. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long? Do you remember?

Mr. Senator. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?

Mr. Senator. Northwest Fourth Terrace.

Mr. Hubert. Miami Beach?

Mr. Senator. No; Miami.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. On Collins Avenue?

Mr. Senator. That is right; yes.

Mr. Hubert. You lived in Miami City itself?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Were you living with your wife then?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what your next move was?

Mr. Senator. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right.

Mr. Hubert. Women’s apparel?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because apparently you did?

Mr. Senator. You mean when I went to Texas?

Mr. Hubert. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas, did you?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Hubert. You did?

Mr. Senator. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.

Mr. Hubert. So you moved to Texas in 1954?

Mr. Senator. May of 1954.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. Senator. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948?

Mr. Hubert. The social security records indicate 1951.

Mr. Senator. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be 1951.

Mr. Hubert. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you live in Milwaukee?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. And in Chicago?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. In other words——

Mr. Senator. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when they called the people in for sales meetings.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you living then?

Mr. Senator. In Miami.

Mr. Hubert. That same residence?

Mr. Senator. Northwest Fourth Terrace?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was your area, sales area?

Mr. Senator. Florida.

Mr. Hubert. Just Florida?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You sold women’s apparel?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Wholesale?

Mr. Senator. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.

Mr. Hubert. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as 144 East Flagler in Miami.

Mr. Senator. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working for both?

Mr. Senator. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the Christmas holidays only.

Mr. Hubert. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?

Mr. Senator. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. These records also indicate that actually you worked for Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that.

Mr. Senator. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex., and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you remember the year, the month?

Mr. Senator. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. 1954?

Mr. Senator. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10 years I have been there.

Mr. Hubert. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in May of 1954, on a Friday?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Actually, May 15, I think you said.

Mr. Senator. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.

Mr. Hubert. Did your wife go with you?

Mr. Senator. No; she wouldn’t go.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been living together up to that time?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that the cause of your separation?

Mr. Senator. I believe that is.

Mr. Hubert. She never did go to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.

Mr. Hubert. She kept the child?

Mr. Senator. She kept the child.

Mr. Hubert. And still has it?

Mr. Senator. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a possibility.

Mr. Hubert. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to work, I take it, for Smoler’s?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various places where you lived?

Mr. Senator. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels, from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the State of Texas.

Mr. Hubert. What was your territory there?

Mr. Senator. Texas.

Mr. Hubert. The whole of Texas?

Mr. Senator. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only part of Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, that comes a little later.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your various addresses just roughly.

Mr. Senator. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the street.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Senator. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. Was it an apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it was an apartment.

Mr. Hubert. Were you alone?

Mr. Senator. No; I was with a couple other boys.

Mr. Hubert. Who were they?

Mr. Senator. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.

Mr. Hubert. He played the instrument called the xylophone?

Mr. Senator. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What is the one that is made out of wood?

Mr. Hubert. Marimba?

Mr. Senator. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?

Mr. Hubert. As a musical instrument?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. A percussion instrument?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he work?

Mr. Senator. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked locally, out of town.

Mr. Hubert. Who was the other one?

Mr. Senator. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name was Mort Seder.

Mr. Hubert. What did he do?

Mr. Senator. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.

Mr. Hubert. Have you maintained contact with either of those?

Mr. Senator. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale by the sea.

Mr. Hubert. What about the other one?

Mr. Senator. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would probably say in the last 2 months.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him often prior to that?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you lived together initially?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And then lived together after that?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place. He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that time. So we lived together.

Mr. Hubert. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that place?

Mr. Senator. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.

Mr. Hubert. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence at the McKinney Street address.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that broke up?

Mr. Senator. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to another place.

Mr. Hubert. Where was that?

Mr. Senator. That was on Shadyside Lane.

Mr. Hubert. And how long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a year, with a guess again, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. That is you and Seder?

Mr. Senator. Yes; Seder.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go from there?

Mr. Senator. Columbia Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a couple of years. I’m not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. You were still with Seder then?

Mr. Senator. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.

Mr. Hubert. So he left you, as it were?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?

Mr. Senator. I remained there for a while.

Mr. Hubert. And then what happened?

Mr. Senator. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m trying to figure where I went from there.

Mr. Hubert. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether you then——

Mr. Senator. I stayed there for a while.

Mr. Hubert. You stayed there for a while alone?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I had my own place.

Mr. Hubert. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or were you alone?

Mr. Senator. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think where, though.

Mr. Hubert. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived with?

Mr. Senator. I think I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. Hubert. Is that an apartment house?

Mr. Senator. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places. They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe that is where I moved next.

Mr. Hubert. Whom did you share that apartment with?

Mr. Senator. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. Pardon me?

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live there?

Mr. Senator. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what year. Do you have a listing of it?

Mr. Hubert. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July of 1958.

Mr. Senator. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have been living there yet. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last place was at the Oasis.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?

Mr. Senator. Where I moved to?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all over, if I recall right.

Mr. Hubert. Were you working with Smoler’s then?

Mr. Senator. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember if I——

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of 1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting from July of 1958 until apparently——

Mr. Senator. July of 1958?

Mr. Hubert. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas. That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were doing and where you were living?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.

Mr. Hubert. Do the best you can.

Mr. Senator. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.

Mr. Hubert. In any case you moved to the Oasis?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. Hubert. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was, you got on the road.

Mr. Senator. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds, and then I finally got back with Rhea again.

Mr. Hubert. R-h-e-a?

Mr. Senator. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.

Mr. Hubert. Milwaukee?

Mr. Senator. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I was unemployed.

Mr. Hubert. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying normal expenses?

Mr. Senator. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.

Mr. Hubert. Were you living in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Hubert. All that period?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the 3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?

Mr. Senator. January of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent nature other than in Dallas any place else?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. So that even though you were traveling during those years, doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.

Mr. Hubert. How long ago?

Mr. Senator. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I used to help him.

Mr. Hubert. Who is he?

Mr. Senator. His name is George Hamrah.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell it?

Mr. Senator. H-a-m-r-a-h.

Mr. Hubert. He still lives in Houston?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he still lives in Houston.

Mr. Hubert. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the Oasis on?

Mr. Senator. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.

Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.

Mr. Senator. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes, I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.

Mr. Hubert. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers in the Oasis.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with at the Oasis.

Mr. Senator. I gave you the names——

Mr. Hubert. Of two of them, as I recall.

Mr. Senator. Of one apartment.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his name was Frank Irwin.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead.

Mr. Senator. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen them in the last few years?

Mr. Senator. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter part of last year.

Mr. Hubert. Even the man whose name you don’t know?

Mr. Senator. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back to it.

Mr. Senator. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I just can’t put my finger——

Mr. Hubert. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. At various apartments?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with Jack Ruby; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was Ruby living then?

Mr. Senator. Ruby was living at the Marsalla—

Mr. Hubert. Palace?

Mr. Senator. There is a bunch of apartments there.

Mr. Hubert. Marsalla South?

Mr. Senator. It may have been Marsalla South.

Mr. Hubert. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla, Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on the street.

Mr. Hubert. It was on Marsalis Street?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you live with Jack then?

Mr. Senator. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to 6 months; something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Anybody else live there with you?

Mr. Senator. No; just Jack and myself.

Mr. Hubert. What was the occasion for your leaving him?

Mr. Senator. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard business.

Mr. Hubert. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in Dallas; did you not?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you live after you left Ruby?

Mr. Senator. After I left who?

Mr. Hubert. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that would have been around in September.

Mr. Senator. August.

Mr. Hubert. August of 1962?

Mr. Senator. Yes; August.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go then?

Mr. Senator. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.

Mr. Hubert. And where was that apartment?

Mr. Senator. That was on Maple Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment?

Mr. Senator. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment.

Mr. Hubert. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Why I moved?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Please run that back again.

Mr. Hubert. I say I judge from what you have said that the real reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a job selling postcards?

Mr. Senator. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is not necessarily it; no.

Mr. Hubert. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?

Mr. Senator. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club, and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.

Mr. Hubert. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living conditions as you have indicated?

Mr. Senator. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.

Mr. Hubert. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to go with Corbat, and you did?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And how long did you stay with Corbat?

Mr. Senator. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine, Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.

Mr. Hubert. That was about when?

Mr. Senator. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.

Mr. Hubert. But he moved later than you, didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Well, see, I moved in first.

Mr. Hubert. With Corbat?

Mr. Senator. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right after that.

Mr. Hubert. He moved in with you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that was in November of 1962?

Mr. Senator. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. When did Ruby move in?

Mr. Senator. He moved in around that same time.

Mr. Hubert. But after you?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably say, something like that, within that week.

Mr. Hubert. And then you stayed there until when?

Mr. Senator. The unfateful day.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while?

Mr. Senator. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there until August.

Mr. Hubert. Of 1963?

Mr. Senator. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out——

Mr. Hubert. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?

Mr. Senator. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August 8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.

Mr. Hubert. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s apartment?

Mr. Senator. It was the first week in November of 1963.

Mr. Hubert. By the way, would you state for the record what was the number of the apartment you and Corbat had?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Senator. Room number?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; on South Ewing.

Mr. Senator. 223 South Ewing.

Mr. Hubert. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I want to get that in the record.

Mr. Senator. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.

Mr. Hubert. They were next to one another, or opposite?

Mr. Senator. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.

Mr. Hubert. And they are numbered in sequence?

Mr. Senator. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207, something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.

Mr. Hubert. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?

Mr. Senator. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a couple years.

Mr. Hubert. What was he doing when you last saw him?

Mr. Senator. What does he do?

Mr. Hubert. What was he doing then?

Mr. Senator. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.

Mr. Hubert. What about James Young?

Mr. Senator. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance corporation called Warner.

Mr. Hubert. When did you last see him?

Mr. Senator. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City, and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. What time?

Mr. Senator. At night.

Mr. Hubert. No; what day?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. What time of the year, what month?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I think it was in December.

Mr. Hubert. Of 1963?

Mr. Senator. I think so, in December 1963.

Mr. Hubert. When had you seen him prior to that time?

Mr. Senator. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a couple years, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third man——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you remember his name now?

Mr. Senator. Jack Loftus.

Mr. Hubert. L-o-f-t-u-s?

Mr. Senator. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in Hillsboro, if he is still there.

Mr. Hubert. What is his occupation?

Mr. Senator. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in Hillsboro.

Mr. Hubert. Texas?

Mr. Senator. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. When was the last time you saw him?

Mr. Senator. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that, but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This part I do remember.

Mr. Hubert. That was the same day you saw Young?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?

Mr. Senator. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.

Mr. Hubert. That was after Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. They were looking for you for what reason?

Mr. Senator. Sir?

Mr. Hubert. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking for you?

Mr. Senator. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them, you know, for a while. Nothing particular.

Mr. Hubert. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the apartment with Ruby.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, it was national news.

Mr. Senator. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident somehow.

Mr. Griffin. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw them?

Mr. Senator. These two boys?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?

Mr. Senator. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.

Mr. Hubert. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?

Mr. Senator. Before?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since you had seen Loftus?

Mr. Senator. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving, Frank Irwin.

Mr. Hubert. What was the friend’s name?

Mr. Senator. Frank Irwin.

Mr. Hubert. I-r-w-i-n?

Mr. Senator. I-r-w-i-n, yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Senator. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.

Mr. Hubert. Did he know Ruby?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he knew him casually.

Mr. Hubert. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Did Stanley Corbat know him?

Mr. Senator. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him. But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.

Mr. Hubert. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out of the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where is he living now, in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on Munger Street.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Hubert. How did you come in contact with him, socially?

Mr. Senator. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across him once in a delicatessen.

Mr. Hubert. Just once?

Mr. Senator. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact, I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.

Mr. Hubert. What does he do?

Mr. Senator. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s budget dresses.

Mr. Griffin. Which department store?

Mr. Senator. Titche.

Mr. Griffin. That is in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located?

Mr. Senator. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main Street.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.

Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by way of charges?

Mr. Senator. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.

Mr. Hubert. Did they charge you?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I had nothing to sober up with.

Mr. Hubert. Did they follow up with any charges?

Mr. Senator. No; we were fined $15.

Mr. Hubert. You were fined?

Mr. Senator. I believe it was $15.

Mr. Hubert. Is that the only time?

Mr. Senator. The only time in my life.

Mr. Hubert. The only time you have ever been arrested?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. There have been no other charges?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?

Mr. Senator. Never.

Mr. Hubert. During the war?

Mr. Senator. Never, none whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?

Mr. Senator. Professional?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to any gambling houses?

Mr. Senator. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.

Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.

Mr. Hubert. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?

Mr. Senator. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or something like that?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Senator. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What other recreation did we have? So we gambled.

Mr. Hubert. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from July of 1958 until the first of 1962.

Mr. Senator. What years?

Mr. Hubert. According to the records, there were no earnings reported for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.

Mr. Senator. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead.

Mr. Senator. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.

When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t file.

Mr. Hubert. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.

You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?

Mr. Senator. No; that was with Rhea.

Mr. Hubert. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose your job there?

Mr. Senator. With Smoler Brothers?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy with them.

First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow over that.

Mr. Hubert. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done considerably better?

Mr. Senator. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?

You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s, you go to Rhea’s——

Mr. Senator. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you know that were nothing to speak of.

Mr. Hubert. Here is what I want to get at.

Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about that.

Mr. Senator. I lived on handouts.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about it.

Mr. Senator. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed, extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three, two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and they kept me for a while.

Mr. Hubert. You did not pay any part of the rent?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?

Mr. Senator. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.

Mr. Griffin. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?

Mr. Senator. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.

Mr. Griffin. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and Rhea?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think there was much time between them.

Mr. Griffin. What would you say, 3 months?

Mr. Senator. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.

Mr. Griffin. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.

Mr. Senator. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.

Mr. Griffin. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?

Mr. Senator. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while, which didn’t last too long.

Mr. Griffin. Doing the same kind of work?

Mr. Senator. Yes, doing the same kind of work.

Mr. Griffin. Covering territory?

Mr. Senator. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them long and I wasn’t making any money with them.

Mr. Griffin. What company was that?

Mr. Senator. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you say you were with them?

Mr. Senator. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4 months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.

Mr. Griffin. Were you on a straight commission with them?

Mr. Senator. Yes. No, a draw against commission.

Mr. Griffin. A draw against commission?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.

Mr. Griffin. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for next?

Mr. Senator. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know I did some odd things. I was with Rhea——

Mr. Hubert. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you get into other lines?

Mr. Senator. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me going.

Mr. Griffin. Was that in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?

Mr. Senator. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I worked for Rhea.

Mr. Hubert. How long did the Rhea employment last?

Mr. Senator. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half, I’m not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make any money off of that?

Mr. Senator. Just a draw part.

Mr. Hubert. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have enough money then to pay your fair share?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was——

Mr. Hubert. So when you are talking about the handouts——

Mr. Senator. The handouts is when I was completely out.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have any employment at all?

Mr. Senator. No, I was completely out.

Mr. Hubert. That was for about a year, year and a half?

Mr. Senator. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.

Mr. Hubert. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any money?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You were not contributing?

Mr. Senator. No. Ruby gave me handouts.

Mr. Hubert. That is right?

Mr. Senator. Certainly.

Mr. Hubert. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is it not, roughly?

Mr. Senator. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9 months, I think.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?

Mr. Senator. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first moved in with him, because I had no money.

Mr. Hubert. And then you got——

Mr. Senator. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on a 50-50 basis.

Mr. Hubert. That is when you moved to South Ewing?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which was in August of 1962?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you making money at that time?

Mr. Senator. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.

Mr. Hubert. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I was in the postcards.

Mr. Hubert. That is what business? What company is that?

Mr. Senator. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you with them?

Mr. Senator. I was sales manager, whatever that means.

Mr. Hubert. How long were you with them?

Mr. Senator. August of 1962 until November of 1963.

Mr. Hubert. What part of November?

Mr. Senator. The latter part of November.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.

Mr. Hubert. What were you making then?

Mr. Senator. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.

Mr. Hubert. That was your actual draw?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In cash?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Roughly $250 a month?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?

Mr. Senator. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.

Mr. Hubert. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute; you had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby, because you say that that employment——

Mr. Senator. No, no, no; you mean prior to——

Mr. Hubert. To the shooting.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were still working with them?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you were still drawing that pay?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?

Mr. Senator. No; I am referring to the first time.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see.

Mr. Senator. That was in 1962.

Mr. Hubert. You were living in another place?

Mr. Senator. Yes; in 1962.

Mr. Hubert. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby; that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were——

Mr. Senator. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.

Mr. Hubert. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby——

Mr. Senator. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move in, so I moved in.

Mr. Hubert. And were you supposed to pay any part?

Mr. Senator. With Jack, no.

Mr. Hubert. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up during a week night.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this Rhea Manufacturing Co.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What did they do? What did they make?

Mr. Senator. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.

Mr. Griffin. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about that business with Smoler Bros.?

Mr. Senator. The type business?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year, you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.

Mr. Griffin. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer for the following season?

Mr. Senator. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out. Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we want to know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters, seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would that be?

Mr. Griffin. That is right.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Were you always on a draw right along?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Were there some periods during each year when you did not earn your draw?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that you did not earn your draw?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Griffin. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did not earn your draw?

Mr. Senator. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or there may have been times when I fell even behind.

Mr. Hubert. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Griffin. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of New York State is that?

Mr. Senator. Are you familiar with Albany?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. You are familiar with Schenectady?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. How about Amsterdam?

Mr. Griffin. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.

Mr. Senator. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off the beaten path a bit from your main lines.

Mr. Griffin. It is upstate New York?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills of the Adirondacks.

Mr. Griffin. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Why did you go to New Hampshire?

Mr. Senator. I needed a job.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to go there?

Mr. Senator. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name of it again?

Mr. Hubert. The Hensroost.

Mr. Senator. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go on.

Mr. Hubert. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10 years ago, that you moved to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.

Mr. Hubert. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met him?

Mr. Senator. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or take a few.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.

Mr. Senator. How I met him?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else walked in, Jack Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how your friendship or acquaintance developed?

Mr. Senator. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi, George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?”

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first meeting?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him; having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.

Mr. Hubert. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago as casual?

Mr. Senator. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere else.

Mr. Hubert. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately developed, in any case.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.

Mr. Hubert. You did not go to the Vegas very much?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much.

Mr. Hubert. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what brought that about?

Mr. Senator. Yes. (Brief recess.)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You understand that?

Mr. Senator. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Senator. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. Hubert. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to have a lawyer?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. I just wanted to get it straight.

Mr. Senator. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a lawyer.

Mr. Hubert. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?

Mr. Senator. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.

Mr. Hubert. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?

Mr. Senator. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember actually when that opened?

Mr. Senator. Which?

Mr. Hubert. The Sovereign.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or 6 months?

Mr. Senator. That it changed to the Carousel?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.

Mr. Griffin. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?

Mr. Senator. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of things?

Mr. Senator. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.

Mr. Griffin. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. Senator. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have striptease performance?

Mr. Senator. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Griffin. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you visit any of those?

Mr. Senator. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend who was a member or something of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more attractive to you than some of the other clubs?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say “Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?

Mr. Senator. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. Senator. As of recent?

Mr. Griffin. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and Jack would let you in.

Mr. Senator. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the manager, who the manager was at that time.

Mr. Griffin. You know Abe Weinstein?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I know him casually.

Mr. Griffin. Had you visited his clubs?

Mr. Senator. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many times.

Mr. Hubert. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from there.

Mr. Senator. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature, he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from another source?

Mr. Senator. No; I told him I was down.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask to go in with him?

Mr. Senator. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.

Mr. Hubert. That is the Carousel you mean?

Mr. Senator. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck them he has really got something to buck.

Mr. Hubert. So he was having difficulties and you were too?

Mr. Senator. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?

Mr. Senator. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.

Mr. Hubert. How long did that situation go on?

Mr. Senator. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.

Mr. Hubert. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment which he then had?

Mr. Senator. He didn’t have an apartment.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I say.

Mr. Senator. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he gave you cash?

Mr. Senator. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money or he would just take me.

Mr. Hubert. Just do what?

Mr. Senator. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.

Mr. Hubert. But then he did get an apartment?

Mr. Senator. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long after that.

Mr. Hubert. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that apartment with him?

Mr. Senator. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow he got this apartment on South Ewing.

Mr. Hubert. On South Ewing?

Mr. Senator. No; Marsalis.

Mr. Hubert. And then you moved in with him right away?

Mr. Senator. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it together but I know I was there.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t have to pay any rent?

Mr. Senator. No; but I helped him in the club.

Mr. Hubert. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What kind of work did you do at the club?

Mr. Senator. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d take cash for him.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that is on the front door?

Mr. Senator. Yes; on the front door.

Mr. Hubert. That is the $2 admission charge?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Hubert. And what other jobs did you do?

Mr. Senator. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?

Mr. Senator. No. He had a clean-up boy.

Mr. Hubert. Who was he?

Mr. Senator. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.

Mr. Hubert. Was he there when you first went there?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until the time the club closed down.

Mr. Hubert. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?

Mr. Senator. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the apartment house.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.

Mr. Senator. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me up, I had to do something, see.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I had in mind.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you leave at the same time that he did?

Mr. Senator. I would leave when he left.

Mr. Hubert. Because you were both going back to the same house?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What about going there? You went earlier?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in the apartment longer than I could.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you normally go to work then?

Mr. Senator. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.

Mr. Hubert. You never had to go in midafternoon though?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of that sort?

Mr. Senator. Andrew.

Mr. Hubert. What time did Andrew get there?

Mr. Senator. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around 1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I guess, maybe a little longer.

Mr. Hubert. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions and so you moved in with Corbat?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of 1963—is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was your relationship with Jack then?

Mr. Senator. August of 1962.

Mr. Hubert. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up with Corbat.

Mr. Senator. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there. At rare times I would help him at the door.

Mr. Hubert. But you had a job then?

Mr. Senator. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the door, things of that kind.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with Corbat, is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.

Mr. Hubert. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.

Mr. Senator. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got along excepting when he hollered at me.

Mr. Hubert. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?

Mr. Senator. Yes; a wagon.

Mr. Hubert. A station wagon?

Mr. Senator. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?

Mr. Griffin. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Is it a passenger car?

Mr. Senator. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.

Mr. Hubert. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?

Mr. Senator. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in the back, the back part.

Mr. Hubert. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?

Mr. Senator. It was the company.

Mr. Hubert. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time to time. How often about, just roughly?

Mr. Senator. Two or three times a week. It all depends.

Mr. Hubert. And you would help there?

Mr. Senator. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.

Mr. Hubert. If you helped did he pay you?

Mr. Senator. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the things he did for me, when I was down and out.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then I think we have covered the time when Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment next door.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?

Mr. Senator. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.

Mr. Hubert. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?

Mr. Senator. No; I had the automobile until January.

Mr. Hubert. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with these people until after Oswald was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But at the stress of the——

Mr. Senator. But the stresses.

Mr. Hubert. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.

Mr. Hubert. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever?

Mr. Senator. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.

Mr. Hubert. When was the last time you owned an automobile?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. What kind was it?

Mr. Senator. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.

Mr. Hubert. Did you sell it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in.

Mr. Hubert. You traded it in for what?

Mr. Senator. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I believe.

Mr. Hubert. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4 or 5 years?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose. You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new car.

Mr. Senator. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is it. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind. You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now what year?

Mr. Senator. 1964.

Mr. Griffin. Just a couple of months ago?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when you moved in with Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of November, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general mode of living and working with him that had existed before?

Mr. Senator. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with him, so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in maybe on a weekday.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, your operation——

Mr. Senator. Just at the door.

Mr. Hubert. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not like it was before?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Not on a daily basis?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Just at night, not every night?

Mr. Senator. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. Hubert. But you were still at your job?

Mr. Senator. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?

Mr. Senator. There was no food. The only food there was, they make pizzas once in a while.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the apartment.

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny guy in cooking.

Mr. Hubert. Did you do any cooking there at all?

Mr. Senator. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs, it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook for.

Mr. Hubert. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?

Mr. Senator. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.

Mr. Hubert. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship. You had a regular working day I take it?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other hand, would be sleeping in the morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got back at night or before, as a normal thing?

Mr. Senator. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5 and 6 because many times I stayed out.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in point of time?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.

Mr. Hubert. What about weekends? Was that different?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before he does, whether I am working or otherwise.

Mr. Hubert. You would help him at the club?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about the same time he did?

Mr. Senator. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning, I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that I get up.

Mr. Griffin. What is your regular rising time?

Mr. Senator. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at 10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. What about on weekends?

Mr. Senator. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday.

Mr. Griffin. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?

Mr. Senator. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of coffee and go to work?

Mr. Senator. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee. I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in the morning.

Mr. Griffin. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Where?

Mr. Senator. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those are the three places I normally was always in.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?

Mr. Senator. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot where I eat lunch.

Mr. Griffin. What would you do about dinners?

Mr. Senator. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack, because I just can’t cook of his nature.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?

Mr. Senator. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe; on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.

Mr. Griffin. Who did the shopping?

Mr. Senator. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t shop for him.

Mr. Griffin. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?

Mr. Senator. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like it that is too bad.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits, unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.

Mr. Griffin. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Griffin. Or was there some difference in your relationship?

Mr. Senator. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.

Mr. Griffin. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any particular evening what the meal was going to be?

Mr. Senator. I had no say. I had no say.

Mr. Griffin. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was coming back for dinner?

Mr. Senator. No; no call; no.

Mr. Griffin. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would?

Mr. Senator. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me.

Mr. Griffin. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you wanted to do?

Mr. Senator. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set pattern. There was no particular time.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from all this, from the fact that your acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?

Mr. Senator. I knew something about them.

Mr. Griffin. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.

Mr. Senator. He had enough of them.

Mr. Hubert. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?

Mr. Senator. He had a few dogs.

Mr. Hubert. All the time that you have known him was that so or when did that begin?

Mr. Senator. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.

Mr. Hubert. That is about 2½ years ago?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know anything about the dogs?

Mr. Senator. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before.

Mr. Hubert. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it?

Mr. Senator. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba, who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.

Mr. Hubert. So he kept them.

Mr. Senator. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he keep them?

Mr. Senator. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which everybody in this country knows.

Mr. Hubert. She was the mother?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up with——

Mr. Hubert. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?

Mr. Senator. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.

Mr. Hubert. Sheba was always with him?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.

Mr. Hubert. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs. Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip.

Mr. Hubert. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a normal attitude that people have to dogs?

Mr. Senator. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no meaning when he says this.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. Senator. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior to. No; it had to be prior.

Mr. Hubert. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Since the shooting?

Mr. Senator. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Were there other people that you remember who commented to you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he was——

Mr. Senator. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one was “my wife,” which absolutely has——

Mr. Hubert. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?

Mr. Senator. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was after, see.

Mr. Hubert. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?

Mr. Senator. The remarks were made after, that is right.

Mr. Hubert. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were made after?

Mr. Senator. After.

Mr. Hubert. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were supposed to have occurred prior?

Mr. Senator. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.

Mr. Hubert. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the shooting?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these animals?

Mr. Senator. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of years.

Mr. Hubert. There was nothing abnormal about it?

Mr. Senator. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog may be.

Mr. Hubert. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?

Mr. Senator. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.

Mr. Hubert. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Hubert. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?

Mr. Senator. That he would have?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.

Mr. Griffin. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel that way?

Mr. Senator. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.

Mr. Hubert. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.

Mr. Senator. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim 2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he do any ice skating?

Mr. Senator. Yes, we were ice skating once.

Mr. Hubert. Was he good at it?

Mr. Senator. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because he had never been on ice skates before.

Mr. Hubert. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?

Mr. Senator. Sir?

Mr. Hubert. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?

Mr. Senator. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked me to go, too, and did I suffer.

Mr. Hubert. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with, you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been on ice skates, including his age.

Mr. Hubert. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?

Mr. Senator. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things, weightlifters.

Mr. Hubert. Weightlifting equipment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He had them in the house?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.

Mr. Hubert. What was his general physical condition?

Mr. Senator. Excellent.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a powerful man?

Mr. Senator. A powerful man?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he tangled with people?

Mr. Senator. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a couple of people.

Mr. Hubert. You mean between him and other people.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about those, would you?

Mr. Senator. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him, because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.

Mr. Hubert. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you just tell us about those.

Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you one.

Mr. Hubert. About where they happened and the time.

Mr. Senator. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one. Do you want it in the club or out of the club?

Mr. Hubert. Any one.

Mr. Senator. This was outside of the club.

Mr. Hubert. When was it?

Mr. Senator. Last year.

Mr. Hubert. About what time last year?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.

Mr. Hubert. The summer of 1963?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what happened.

Mr. Senator. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the Burgundy Room is?

Mr. Hubert. The Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with this fellow here.

Mr. Hubert. Who, what fellow?

Mr. Senator. His name?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Don Taber or Tabin.

Mr. Hubert. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were with that man?

Mr. Senator. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some girl and went over to talk to her.

Mr. Hubert. So you were alone at the table?

Mr. Senator. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.

Mr. Hubert. Who came in?

Mr. Senator. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know, and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other, I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?

Mr. Hubert. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.

Mr. Senator. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.

Mr. Hubert. Go what?

Mr. Senator. Do you want me to use the word?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. He told him to go —— himself.

Mr. Hubert. Who told who?

Mr. Senator. Don to Jack.

Mr. Hubert. Told that to Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.

Mr. Hubert. You mean when Jack came in?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Taber or Tabin told him that?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And there had been no previous conversation between them?

Mr. Senator. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason or other.

Mr. Hubert. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. To Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then what happened?

Mr. Senator. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he hit him?

Mr. Senator. He hit him.

Mr. Hubert. With his fist or what?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any knucks?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or pistol?

Mr. Senator. It was his fist, yes.

Mr. Hubert. What happened?

Mr. Senator. So they got into a little battle.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. So they actually squared off?

Mr. Senator. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.

Mr. Hubert. What happened?

Mr. Senator. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.

Mr. Hubert. Was he knocked off his feet?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was he a big man, this Taber?

Mr. Senator. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. And how tall?

Mr. Senator. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. Hubert. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and weight?

Mr. Senator. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.

Mr. Hubert. And weighed what?

Mr. Senator. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.

Mr. Hubert. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did he have much fat?

Mr. Senator. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it. But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous back.

Mr. Hubert. Was he fast with his fists?

Mr. Senator. I would say for his age he was.

Mr. Hubert. When you saw this battle with Taber?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he was pretty fast.

Mr. Hubert. And he definitely got the best of him?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What about the other occasion?

Mr. Senator. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?

Mr. Senator. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be around the side and all I caught is the tail end.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know when?

Mr. Senator. That was in 1962.

Mr. Hubert. Did he knock the man off his feet?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that? He told you?

Mr. Senator. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.

Mr. Hubert. Is this the opinion that is generally held?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held or not.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?

Mr. Senator. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.

Mr. Griffin. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the club?

Mr. Senator. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of some nature.

Mr. Hubert. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew about from having observed them yourself?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen that often?

Mr. Senator. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Like throwing them down the stairs?

Mr. Senator. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.

The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat them up.

Mr. Hubert. What was your answer?

Mr. Senator. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I remember right.

Mr. Hubert. Who did?

Mr. Senator. Mr. Alexander.

Mr. Hubert. But in any case what is the truth?

Mr. Senator. What did I answer him?

Mr. Hubert. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth as to that question.

Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you how I answered him.

Mr. Hubert. Yes, all right; tell us that first.

Mr. Senator. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size, something like that I answered him.

Mr. Hubert. That is your opinion now, too?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you base that opinion on what?

Mr. Senator. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.

Mr. Hubert. And you think that is not so?

Mr. Senator. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.

Mr. Hubert. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion right now?

Mr. Senator. How do I form that opinion?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size don’t mean anything to him.

Mr. Hubert. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to anything?

Mr. Senator. No; I have never witnessed any.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?

Mr. Senator. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?

Mr. Senator. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut. His cut much more off than mine.

Mr. Hubert. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?

Mr. Senator. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?

Mr. Senator. I have never seen it.

Mr. Hubert. You have heard about it?

Mr. Senator. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.

Mr. Hubert. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never witnessed anything of this nature.

Mr. Hubert. Have you an opinion?

Mr. Senator. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t know what I was guessing at.

Mr. Hubert. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.

Mr. Senator. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.

Mr. Hubert. And that was formed I think you told us from your general knowledge.

Mr. Senator. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.

Mr. Hubert. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?

Mr. Senator. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type of man who would do that in your opinion?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so. Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.

Mr. Hubert. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would be that brutal.

Mr. Griffin. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?

Mr. Senator. Yes, but there was no kicking.

Mr. Griffin. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?

Mr. Senator. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped. But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.

Mr. Griffin. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody pull him off?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.

Mr. Griffin. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at the tail end of it.

Mr. Senator. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, it is going up a flight of steps.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the L shape of it I didn’t see.

Mr. Griffin. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were thrown?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. How long did this last?

Mr. Senator. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or two blows and that was it.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody come in and break that up?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he knocked him down with that blow.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?

Mr. Senator. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is about using his fists?

Mr. Senator. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.

Mr. Griffin. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair evaluation.

Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?

Mr. Senator. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.

Mr. Griffin. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?

Mr. Senator. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man thinks.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t know that much about him?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. To be able to say that?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the way to solve the problem at that particular point.

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.

Mr. Griffin. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.

Mr. Griffin. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of steam on this guy.

Mr. Senator. Maybe this is something that just went off instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it could have been.

Mr. Hubert. You have indicated along here in your testimony, particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that was your phrase?

Mr. Senator. Agree.

Mr. Hubert. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like that.

Mr. Senator. He could have a pretty fast temper.

Mr. Hubert. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing——

Mr. Senator. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about——

Mr. Senator. Hollered at me, you know.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?

Mr. Senator. Well, if there should have been discussion about something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler at me and flare up at me.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by “make wrong”?

Mr. Senator. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would say no it is white and that is it.

Mr. Hubert. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?

Mr. Senator. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it.

Mr. Hubert. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would——

Mr. Senator. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would get over it that fast from me.

Mr. Hubert. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would describe it as anger, manifested——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Wait a while.

Mr. Senator. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he wouldn’t.

Mr. Hubert. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that——

Mr. Senator. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off. He didn’t like that.

Mr. Hubert. But you say he would calm down right away?

Mr. Senator. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them “Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all times.

Mr. Hubert. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give us examples of that?

Mr. Senator. I can give you examples of myself on that.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have described?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he would holler at me.

Mr. Hubert. Then it would be all over.

Mr. Senator. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he would tone down.

Mr. Hubert. How long would it take?

Mr. Senator. A matter of a minute or two.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject and be quite his normal self again?

Mr. Senator. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you. Whatever it might be I can’t be right.

Mr. Hubert. That was the way he treated you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that Jack owned a pair of knuckles?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when he bought them?

Mr. Senator. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. How did you learn that he had them?

Mr. Senator. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a cloth sack.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he keep that sack?

Mr. Senator. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep anything else in the sack?

Mr. Senator. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see, Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money, which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in all different pockets.

Mr. Hubert. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You shake your head. What does that mean?

Mr. Senator. He is not a drinker.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t drink at all?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?

Mr. Senator. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.

Mr. Hubert. How about smoking?

Mr. Senator. No smoking whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. What was his attitude toward women?

Mr. Senator. Like any other man.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say any other normal man?

Mr. Senator. Any other normal man.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you the possibility of homosexuality?

Mr. Senator. Never.

Mr. Hubert. On his part?

Mr. Senator. Never.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?

Mr. Senator. I never noticed it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he lisp?

Mr. Senator. Yes. So do I.

Mr. Hubert. Jack has a lisp?

Mr. Senator. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?

Mr. Senator. No. Just as normal as any human being.

Mr. Hubert. He was single.

Mr. Senator. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never been married, Hyman.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any girl friends?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he went out with various girls.

Mr. Hubert. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex relationships.

Mr. Senator. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch wherever he may be.

Mr. Hubert. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would throw light upon that.

Mr. Senator. He likes women.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know that?

Mr. Senator. How do I know he likes women?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I like women.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?

Mr. Senator. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think this is a normal thing to say.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?

Mr. Senator. This here I’m never around.

Mr. Hubert. What?

Mr. Senator. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we can leave that off.

Mr. Senator. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else talks to them.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?

Mr. Senator. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This is when I turn out to be the cook.

Mr. Hubert. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in your own mind?

Mr. Senator. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?

Mr. Senator. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some company or somebody over.

Mr. Hubert. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?

Mr. Senator. On rare occasions.

Mr. Hubert. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion. That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that nature?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at his club, I mean the waitresses?

Mr. Senator. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly business.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong statement?

Mr. Senator. I have heard that expressed many a time.

Mr. Hubert. What do you think about that statement?

Mr. Senator. It definitely is a wrong statement.

Mr. Hubert. You never saw it.

Mr. Senator. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all, he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What the conversations are I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate character?

Mr. Senator. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.

Mr. Hubert. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?

Mr. Senator. The girls working in the club?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?

Mr. Hubert. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them then I would ask you to explain the difference.

Mr. Senator. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.

Mr. Hubert. Something must have happened that leads you to that opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would certainly have done something about it?

Mr. Senator. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody outside using any of his girls.

Mr. Hubert. You yourself have heard him say that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of relations with people who were in the club?

Mr. Senator. Beyond the area?

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the club or customers.

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with people who were not patrons of the club?

Mr. Senator. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know. First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all, where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.

Mr. Hubert. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us how you know that?

Mr. Senator. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a couple of M.C.’s already.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything to you?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?

Mr. Senator. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.

Mr. Hubert. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?

Mr. Senator. I would say he is; yes.

Mr. Hubert. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?

Mr. Senator. As far as going to church, synagogue?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.

Mr. Hubert. That is, Jewish holidays?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; always.

Mr. Hubert. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?

Mr. Senator. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question because I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you lived with him.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. During the time that you lived with him did he ever indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?

Mr. Senator. They go on Friday nights.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights regularly?

Mr. Senator. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the important holidays.

Mr. Hubert. Do you consider him to be a religious man?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that he observes as to holidays.

Mr. Hubert. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was either religious or not religious.

Mr. Senator. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday. He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does observe those things.

Mr. Hubert. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?

Mr. Senator. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.

Mr. Hubert. I think it is a good time for recess.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.

Mr. Griffin. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever participating in any activities, Jewish activities?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. B’nai B’rith?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the synagogue’s men’s clubs?

Mr. Senator. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)