Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment you have to make about that.

Mr. Senator. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.

Mr. Hubert. Do you mean by that that you don’t know?

Mr. Senator. Break down when you say political issues.

Mr. Hubert. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?

Mr. Senator. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything of that nature.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs as they were developing?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.

Mr. Hubert. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?

Mr. Senator. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.

Mr. Hubert. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban crisis in 1962?

Mr. Senator. He never discussed these.

Mr. Hubert. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I have read that.

Mr. Hubert. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that sort of thing at all?

Mr. Senator. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much. He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course, I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.

Mr. Hubert. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as reflected by newspapers and other news media.

I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his interest was towards topics of the day of international import.

Mr. Senator. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international incident?

Mr. Senator. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t. I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we say, about subjects of that nature?

Mr. Senator. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I remember that distinctly.

Mr. Hubert. You mean he saw that on TV?

Mr. Senator. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who writes a column in New York.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can remember any discussion with him?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. At all?

Mr. Senator. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember any such discussions?

Mr. Senator. I don’t; no.

Mr. Hubert. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole, of his interest in international affairs?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his character, that is all.

Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind of ism.

Mr. Senator. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the time we saw the billboards.

Mr. Hubert. You mean that was——

Mr. Senator. The impeachment of——

Mr. Hubert. After the President was——

Mr. Senator. Right; this was the time that I saw——

Mr. Hubert. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him interested in a matter of that nature?

Mr. Senator. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper.

Mr. Hubert. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it.

(The previous question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Hubert. Can you answer that question?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t get that.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned that one incident.

Mr. Senator. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the country he lives in. He was never——

Mr. Hubert. I suppose that would be called Americanism.

Mr. Senator. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.

Mr. Hubert. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have been?

Mr. Senator. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.

Mr. Hubert. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that caused you to form that opinion?

You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am asking you to say.

Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or attitudes?

Mr. Senator. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as I take it that I know that I do.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on the other hand you don’t know about somebody else.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very fond of the city he lived in.

Mr. Hubert. And how do you know that?

Mr. Senator. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas, he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city like New York or Chicago or California.

Mr. Hubert. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?

Mr. Senator. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And, of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.

Mr. Hubert. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume that everybody loves their country.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Unless there is something to the contrary.

Mr. Senator. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. I want to ask some questions along that line.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.

Mr. Griffin. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area, pick up from notes I have been making.

Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any political candidates for local office in Texas?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like that, political-wise or anything of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for anybody?

Mr. Senator. No; I haven’t.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political sort that would be other than newspaper literature?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society and Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Senator. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.

Mr. Griffin. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?

Mr. Senator. No; he bought it on the way home.

Mr. Griffin. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.

Mr. Griffin. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?

Mr. Senator. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.

Mr. Griffin. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper rather than a Dallas paper?

Mr. Senator. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth, I assume.

Mr. Griffin. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?

Mr. Senator. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.

Mr. Griffin. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t even think he could understand it.

Mr. Griffin. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Time magazine, Newsweek?

Mr. Senator. I never seen any magazines come in.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any magazines around the house?

Mr. Senator. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest.

Mr. Griffin. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And did you have a radio?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV or listening to the radio?

Mr. Senator. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on TV.

Mr. Griffin. What were those?

Mr. Senator. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever stories there might be.

Mr. Griffin. You mean the movies?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a radio in his car?

Mr. Senator. He had, what do you call those little things?

Mr. Griffin. Transistor?

Mr. Senator. Yes; transistor.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?

Mr. Senator. You mean put in?

Mr. Griffin. You know.

Mr. Senator. He had it put in?

Mr. Griffin. A car radio.

Mr. Senator. Oh yes; installed with the car?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?

Mr. Senator. No; just a radio that came with the car.

Mr. Griffin. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. FM or anything like that?

Mr. Senator. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it, and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.

Mr. Griffin. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Or shortwave?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if it could or not.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of a radio was it?

Mr. Senator. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there was a clock and the other side was a radio.

Mr. Griffin. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.

Mr. Senator. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.

Mr. Hubert. Coming back to the automobile and the radio——

Mr. Senator. Pardon me.

Mr. Hubert. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on or not?

Mr. Senator. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on.

Mr. Hubert. Normally he would not put it on?

Mr. Senator. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he laid it on the seat.

Mr. Hubert. Did he play it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he put on the music.

Mr. Hubert. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead of turning on the radio in the automobile?

Mr. Senator. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it on and play the music.

Mr. Hubert. He would play the transistor?

Mr. Senator. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car radio was not working.

Mr. Hubert. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his finances, and his banking and so forth?

Mr. Senator. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now, if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?

Mr. Senator. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how did he carry it?

Mr. Senator. In ready cash.

Mr. Hubert. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?

Mr. Senator. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I don’t think he knew where he had it half the time.

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here, here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets.

Mr. Senator. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me “George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his money.

Mr. Hubert. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the Carousel at night and you would go home?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of that night?

Mr. Senator. In his pocket.

Mr. Hubert. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag. Did you ever see that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close to me.

Mr. Hubert. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all, about his handling of it.

Mr. Senator. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?

Mr. Senator. The bag? In the trunk.

Mr. Hubert. In the trunk of the car?

Mr. Senator. While going home.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw it in the trunk of the car?

Mr. Senator. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.

Mr. Hubert. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what you know about it.

Mr. Senator. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with him, this is why he always had the gun with him.

Mr. Hubert. Did he keep the gun on his body?

Mr. Senator. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in his pocket.

Mr. Hubert. Did he own a holster for the gun?

Mr. Senator. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?

Mr. Senator. No; I have never seen it.

Mr. Hubert. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep it?

Mr. Senator. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in the bag.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise, about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other words, as far as you know?

Mr. Senator. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.

Mr. Hubert. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is from what he told you, or did he say anything else?

Mr. Senator. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything.

Mr. Hubert. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it was before me even, you know.

Mr. Hubert. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she really was the owner?

Mr. Senator. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it was like hers.

Mr. Hubert. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?

Mr. Senator. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying there so long.

Mr. Hubert. How do they get along?

Mr. Senator. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.

Mr. Hubert. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.

Mr. Senator. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure you she can holler too.

Mr. Hubert. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?

Mr. Senator. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t quite understand.

Mr. Senator. For me the further away the better. In other words, I shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff.

Mr. Hubert. What you are saying is——

Mr. Senator. I am not happy over the fights.

Mr. Hubert. My question is how frequently it happened.

Mr. Senator. How frequent I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it began you would want to get away, is that the idea?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is something that is flickering.

He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never want to work for her.

Mr. Hubert. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel? Do you know anything about that, who owned that?

Mr. Senator. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he had a partner in the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Hubert. Joe Slayton was it?

Mr. Senator. That is it, Joe Slayton.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign entirely?

Mr. Senator. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.

Mr. Hubert. I mean after Slayton left.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.

Mr. Hubert. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?

Mr. Senator. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.

Mr. Hubert. Connected by way of ownership?

Mr. Senator. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he owned half or what it was I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. On what facts do you base that?

Mr. Senator. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What part he owned I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. What facts make you state that you know he had something to do with it? There must be something that occurred again.

Mr. Senator. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that club somehow.

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that Ralph Paul owned part of it?

Mr. Senator. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack, there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or ownership?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course, this is after this whole deal happened.

Mr. Hubert. The shooting?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did he tell you?

Mr. Senator. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He was part owner of that place.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?

Mr. Senator. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I mean I can’t specifically remember.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right away, as soon as Jack was in jail?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how much Jack owned.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?

Mr. Senator. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words, I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in it?

Mr. Senator. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible interest in it?

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Earl?

Mr. Senator. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all this happened.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t know him before that?

Mr. Senator. Never seen him before in my life.

Mr. Hubert. What about Sam?

Mr. Senator. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.

Mr. Hubert. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?

Mr. Senator. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They always used to come to see him.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who they were?

Mr. Senator. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by name.

Mr. Hubert. Did they come frequently?

Mr. Senator. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or police in uniforms.

Mr. Hubert. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of entertainment?

Mr. Senator. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.

Mr. Hubert. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost? He gave them that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that was the nature of it.

Mr. Hubert. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They didn’t pay that, if they came socially?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You have been on the door yourself?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any instructions on that?

Mr. Senator. No, they didn’t pay entry.

Mr. Hubert. Did they pay for drinks?

Mr. Senator. They had a special rate.

Mr. Hubert. What was it?

Mr. Senator. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they may bring them.

So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a special price for drinks.

Mr. Hubert. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?

Mr. Senator. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage, they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.

In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups, whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that area, he always let them in free.

I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course, these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.

Mr. Griffin. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?

Mr. Senator. No, I think he rented it.

Mr. Griffin. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that operation out there——

Mr. Senator. Not owning the building.

Mr. Griffin. You are not talking about any real estate.

Mr. Senator. No, no.

Mr. Griffin. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He had tables and chairs?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And a piano maybe?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about ownership?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Right?

Mr. Senator. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise or the things in the place, not only the building.

Mr. Griffin. How about the right to get the profits if there were any? Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the profits, or did they share it in some way?

Mr. Senator. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of my—wasn’t any of my business.

Mr. Griffin. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?

Mr. Senator. Either that or put them in his pocket.

Mr. Griffin. Or put them in his pocket?

Mr. Senator. Yes, whichever he saw fit.

Mr. Griffin. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What would he do with it in the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?

Mr. Senator. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.

I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until 3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.

Mr. Griffin. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t tell me his moves where he is going.

Mr. Griffin. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel Club?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t there too long.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?

Mr. Senator. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be. It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know. It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork. I am only guessing.

Mr. Griffin. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so.

Mr. Griffin. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club every night?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar with that part.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his pockets?

Mr. Senator. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?

Mr. Senator. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?

Mr. Griffin. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names. Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities Bank and Trust Company?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. How about the National Bank of Commerce?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. The American Bank and Trust Company?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. The Mercantile National Bank?

Mr. Senator. No; see, if you can find one on—continue.

Mr. Griffin. All right, the Industrial National Bank.

Mr. Senator. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.

Mr. Griffin. But not the Mercantile National Bank?

Mr. Senator. If he did I didn’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the other the Mercantile?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?

Mr. Senator. If he did I didn’t know.

Mr. Griffin. But you only heard of one?

Mr. Senator. I heard of the Merchants.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the receipts from the Vegas Club?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?

Mr. Senator. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds at the Vegas were handled?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or what part Jack got of it?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you were when you heard of the assassination?

Mr. Senator. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch, and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio we listened to.

Mr. Hubert. That was in downtown Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; I was uptown.

Mr. Hubert. Had you seen the Presidential parade?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t see it at all.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did he comment about the President’s visit?

Mr. Senator. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning, you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him the night before?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the night before.

Mr. Hubert. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming the next day?

Mr. Senator. We talked about that. We talked about the President was coming in, you know.

Mr. Hubert. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember what he said.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas.

Mr. Senator. Well, we were happy that he was coming.

Mr. Hubert. Jack was too?

Mr. Senator. Yes; coming into Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?

Mr. Senator. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not, but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas generally, and his business in particular?

Mr. Senator. No; there was no comment on that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the parade?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t mention that.

Mr. Hubert. I think you have previously said in a statement that you saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then, you went to bed?

Mr. Senator. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning when he woke me up.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?

Mr. Senator. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.

Mr. Hubert. He is at the club?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were sleeping.

Mr. Senator. You are talking about Thursday?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.

Mr. Senator. Thursday night—the President came in Friday.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?

Mr. Senator. Yes; his usual routine.

Mr. Hubert. You were asleep I guess when he got back?

Mr. Senator. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not.

Mr. Hubert. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of the President?

Mr. Senator. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday morning.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after the death?

Mr. Senator. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go home on Friday night at all?

Mr. Senator. Sure.

Mr. Hubert. What time?

Mr. Senator. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before I went home. I always buy a paper, too.

Mr. Hubert. Was Jack home then?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the President’s death at all?

Mr. Senator. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around.

Mr. Hubert. Did you try to contact him?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?

Mr. Senator. When I said “around”?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Mr. Senator. Around town, no particular place.

Mr. Griffin. Were you going from bar to bar?

Mr. Senator. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was brooding, a sad affair.

Mr. Hubert. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment on Friday night before you got there?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. So you went home and went to bed.

Mr. Senator. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?”

Mr. Hubert. A full-page ad?

Mr. Senator. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?”

Mr. Hubert. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You saw that before you saw Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.

Mr. Hubert. You went to sleep, I take it?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mr. Senator. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. That was who?

Mr. Senator. Jack Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?

Mr. Senator. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs. Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.”

Mr. Hubert. Had he been drinking?

Mr. Senator. Jack don’t drink.

Mr. Hubert. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion?

Mr. Senator. No; he don’t drink, no.

Mr. Hubert. And his remarks were concerning the children?

Mr. Senator. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for them.

Mr. Hubert. What other comments did he make?

Mr. Senator. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren.

Mr. Hubert. He said he had seen that poster?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he had saw that poster.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say when he had noticed it?

Mr. Senator. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find out why, why that poster was up there.

Mr. Griffin. Had you had some experiences like that before?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. But I mean you said some experiences where he got something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it up.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these things could happen.

Mr. Griffin. But you had never had any experience of that sort?

Mr. Senator. No; I haven’t had any experience.

Mr. Griffin. So, this was a new experience for you.

Mr. Senator. Yes; and he made me get dressed.

Mr. Hubert. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?

Mr. Senator. He was telling me about this sign here.

Mr. Hubert. Why did he want you to get dressed?

Mr. Senator. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear that call?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear that call?

Mr. Senator. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.”

Mr. Hubert. That was after he told you to get dressed?

Mr. Senator. Yes; after he told me first.

Mr. Hubert. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember, but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to you, we were looking at this ad.

Mr. Hubert. And that was at the house?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally.

Mr. Hubert. In the newspapers?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep reading?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it on the floor before I went to bed.

Mr. Hubert. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the ad prior to leaving the house?

Mr. Senator. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that we did look at that ad that night at another place.

Mr. Hubert. We will get to that. What happened next then?

Mr. Senator. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to where this billboard was.

Mr. Hubert. Had he told you where it was beforehand?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the expressway.

Mr. Hubert. Which expressway?

Mr. Senator. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and I know where the expressway is.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.

Mr. Senator. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with these I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t express any?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he wanted three shots.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to take pictures of this?

Mr. Senator. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to find out. So from there we went down to the post office.

Mr. Hubert. Did Larry go with you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. To the post office, I mean.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do at the post office?

Mr. Senator. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post office.

Mr. Hubert. When you say “the ad”——

Mr. Senator. The paper ad.

Mr. Hubert. The Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mr. Hubert. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you previously stated that you weren’t sure?

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t sure.

Mr. Hubert. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he had wakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left, but you think now you must have?

Mr. Senator. We must have because we went to the post office.

Mr. Hubert. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he wanted to know why on this.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why on.

Mr. Senator. Right.

Mr. Hubert. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. Senator. Right; yes.

Mr. Hubert. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office.

Mr. Senator. We went to the post office.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with what?

Mr. Senator. Well, that was in connection—going to the post office was in connection with the paper ad now.

Mr. Hubert. How was it connected to the paper ad?

Mr. Senator. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don’t recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there was such a box.

Mr. Hubert. So did you go into the post office with him?

Mr. Senator. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that number on it. There was a lot of mail in there.

Now, of course, who it belonged to—we don’t know if it belonged to him or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who—I think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don’t remember the number.

He asked him who it is. The night man says, “I can’t give you any information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas.”

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby make a reply to that?

Mr. Senator. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more?

Mr. Senator. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said “How do you get to the postmaster” or something of that nature. I am not sure now.

Mr. Hubert. Was he annoyed with the clerk?

Mr. Senator. No; he wasn’t annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply annoyed with the ad, with both ads.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post office would assist him in whatever he had in mind?

Mr. Senator. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked the telephone directory and couldn’t find this Bernard Weissman, who supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn’t have been local because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas telephone book.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t see him look it up. He merely told you that?

Mr. Senator. He merely told me that. I didn’t see him look it up.

Mr. Hubert. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office with you?

Mr. Senator. I believe he came into the post office. I have to guess on this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Senator. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop.

Mr. Hubert. Where is that located?

Mr. Senator. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don’t know what the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street. I don’t know what the side street is.

Mr. Hubert. Who went?

Mr. Senator. Jack, Larry, and myself.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Senator. I would assume we stayed there—maybe about 15 minutes would be a rough guess.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at that time?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why’s of the President.

Mr. Hubert. Where did he get the paper from?

Mr. Senator. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it.

Mr. Hubert. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that he had read it before?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can’t tell you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was obviously the second time.

Mr. Senator. He was very disturbed.

Mr. Hubert. Or the third time.

Mr. Senator. He was very, very disturbed over both of these.

Mr. Hubert. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion that you describe as a disturbed condition.

Mr. Senator. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you.

Mr. Hubert. His voice was loud or low or different or what?

Mr. Senator. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked at you. It just don’t look like the normal procedure.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen him in that condition before?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say—I don’t know how to put these conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye. I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to put it together.

Mr. Griffin. I didn’t catch that. What kind of a look?

Mr. Senator. A stare look; I don’t know. I can’t express it. I don’t know how to put it in words.

Mr. Hubert. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on Jack Ruby before?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And it was noticeably so?

Mr. Senator. Oh yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you notice it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I could notice it.

Mr. Hubert. Did it disturb you any?

Mr. Senator. I wouldn’t say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he seem to be concerned about the President’s death or the ad or what?

Mr. Senator. To me, I would probably say it must have been a combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the President, terribly.

Mr. Hubert. You say you know that. How do you know that?

Mr. Senator. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I am not the only one who has seen it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average person that you know was disturbed about the President’s death?

Mr. Senator. All I know, while I can’t say about the average because all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can’t describe an average because there might be another individual of his nature, too, who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual?

Mr. Hubert. In any case his reaction was such——

Mr. Senator. It was pretty well—you know, disturbed as I was and as disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him than it was with the others who I have seen.

Mr. Hubert. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold of this newspaper ad and read it again—is that it—that is, in the coffeeshop?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he looked it over again.

Mr. Hubert. What comment did he make, while reading it or after?

Mr. Senator. While reading it?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t mean his words, you understand, his exact words, but the meaning, the thoughts expressed.

Mr. Senator. Yes; the thoughts. He can’t understand it. It is so penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to do something like this.

Mr. Hubert. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President?

Mr. Senator. No; but he couldn’t understand why an ad like this should break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn’t understand why in the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally, that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard.

Mr. Hubert. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was he seeming to do that?

Mr. Senator. He was seeming to do at that time—he was seeming to do with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn’t understand why these things were of a nature—I don’t know how long this billboard has been out. I don’t know if it has been a day, two, or what it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy was coming in. He wanted to know the whys.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I guess.

Mr. Hubert. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the ad.

Mr. Senator. Run that again.

Mr. Hubert. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster, the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the President’s visit?

Mr. Senator. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad, that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which I did hear him say, “This is the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.”

Mr. Hubert. What is the work of those two; the death of the President?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no, no, no.

Mr. Hubert. The publication of these signs?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was behind the death of the President?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t indicate that.

Mr. Hubert. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with the President’s death?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know about that part.

Mr. Hubert. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things, the poster and ad, should come out at the same time?

Mr. Senator. Now, mind you, I don’t know if they come out at the same time, because the billboard, I don’t know if that thing was there a day or a week.

Mr. Hubert. But he was associating the two of those together?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between those two?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he wanted to know why.

Mr. Hubert. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society.

Mr. Senator. Yes; and he couldn’t understand why the Dallas Morning News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper.

Mr. Hubert. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested in any way that his thinking associated the assassination of the President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and so forth.

Mr. Senator. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society.

Mr. Hubert. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any other group?

Mr. Senator. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was talking about the signs.

Mr. Hubert. That is, the poster and the ad?

Mr. Senator. The poster and the ad.

Mr. Hubert. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in the coffeeshop?

Mr. Senator. No. I don’t think there was anybody in there at that time outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or the waitress?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall?

Mr. Senator. I just don’t remember if he had any or not.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make about it?

Mr. Senator. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. What did it mean?

Mr. Hubert. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Then you tried to calm him down?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be spoken to by a friend and calmed down?

Mr. Senator. Well, I don’t know. It is hard for me to say these things. Who would really know?

Mr. Hubert. But in any case you didn’t argue with him about his view?

Mr. Senator. No. I don’t argue with him at any time.

Mr. Hubert. You did not state a concurring view, I take it?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or an opposing view?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Nor did Larry?

Mr. Senator. Larry I can’t speak for because I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. And you don’t remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else or anyone else spoke to him?

Mr. Senator. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Hubert. Then what did you all do next?

Mr. Griffin. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to do with the photographs that he took?

Mr. Senator. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later on.

Mr. Griffin. What was that?

Mr. Senator. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all of that, and I believe those pictures were with it.

Mr. Griffin. When you——

Mr. Senator. At least I assumed the pictures were with him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him, out to the sign?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. That was covered.

Mr. Senator. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you all go then?

Mr. Senator. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up and went to bed, up at the club. Then we went home.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any further discussion at all between you and Ruby?

Mr. Senator. Let’s see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that morning.

Mr. Hubert. It was about what time of the morning when you got back?

Mr. Senator. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am guessing the time.

Mr. Hubert. It was still dark, wasn’t it?

Mr. Senator. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know, sort of lighting up a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Go on.

Mr. Senator. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the episodes of the day, if I remember.

Mr. Hubert. Did you go to bed before Jack?

Mr. Senator. You mean when we came back to the apartment?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. The same time. We went at the same time.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long a period?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. Hubert. And you all went to bed?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You went to sleep?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether he did or not?

Mr. Senator. Well, he went to bed. I assumed——

Mr. Hubert. You were in a different room from him?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still asleep; you know, later on.

Mr. Hubert. What time was that?

Mr. Senator. I would say I must have woke up around, I don’t know, 10 o’clock, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. That is Saturday morning?

Mr. Senator. Saturday morning. I would say something like that.

Mr. Hubert. He was still asleep?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke him up.

Mr. Hubert. Where was the telephone in that apartment?

Mr. Senator. In the living room, but it had a long wire.

Mr. Hubert. But the ringing sound came from the actual machine itself? The ring would be where the phone was located?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the living room?

Mr. Senator. I think it was in the living room.

Mr. Hubert. How far from your bedroom was it?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t——

Mr. Hubert. As close as his?

Mr. Senator. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or something like that, 12 feet, I don’t know what the extension is, but where it was at that moment I don’t know. I assumed that it was on the table. I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Would he normally take it in his room?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think he could get it all the way in his room. You see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take it in mine, but I don’t think I could take it in his, or he might be able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don’t think it would extend that far.

Mr. Hubert. If the phone machine was in the living room where it normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that morning?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone wakened you?

Mr. Senator. I would have to say “No” on that because I am always up before he is.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have wakened you?

Mr. Senator. If he did I just don’t recollect. I wouldn’t say he did or didn’t have one because I just don’t remember if he did have one.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember if he had one?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you.

Mr. Senator. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it.

Mr. Hubert. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did not awaken you, that there was no phone call?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t quote because I don’t know if there was a phone call.

Mr. Hubert. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have awakened you?

Mr. Senator. I would assume so.

Mr. Griffin. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since the President was shot?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the synagogue.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done since the President had been shot?

Mr. Senator. I think he went to the—wait, I don’t remember if he told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any recollection.

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember, but I do know that he had told me that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don’t remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don’t remember which time it was.

Mr. Griffin. When you got up the next morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack up?

Mr. Senator. No; he was sleeping.

Mr. Griffin. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday morning?

Mr. Senator. Oh yes. He was still home when I left.

Mr. Griffin. Was he awake?

Mr. Senator. Oh sure.

Mr. Griffin. So you talked with him?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That is where I had left off.

Mr. Griffin. That is right. That is why I stopped.

Mr. Hubert. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process of your waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened him. How long did you stay around the house?

Mr. Senator. Saturday morning you are referring to?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; after awakening.

Mr. Senator. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you, somewhere around, maybe somewheres between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course, I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour off.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I would probably say that.

Mr. Hubert. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He awoke after.

Mr. Hubert. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in between?

Mr. Senator. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned—of course, he wasn’t feeling good when he woke up—he had mentioned the fact, he sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a poor tragic thing like this to happen to them.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs?

Mr. Senator. No. I wasn’t with him. That was Friday night.

Mr. Hubert. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning.

Mr. Senator. No; this I already knew.

Mr. Hubert. You already knew?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When did you find that out?

Mr. Senator. Friday night.

Mr. Hubert. Who told you?

Mr. Senator. The ad in the paper.

Mr. Hubert. That is how you first saw it?

Mr. Senator. That is how I knew. That was an ad at the same time——

Mr. Hubert. Did you discuss with him at any time, either on Friday night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and the reason therefor?

Mr. Senator. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there at a time such as this.

Mr. Hubert. You say that he put an ad In the paper Friday night that the club would be closed for 3 days?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know what time because I assume he put it in sometime Friday afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for 3 days?

Mr. Senator. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran.

Mr. Hubert. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever talk to him about it?

Mr. Senator. About the ad?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Being closed?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I told him that I read it.

Mr. Hubert. And what was his comment, or query?

Mr. Senator. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his ad, because he didn’t feel they should be open on account of the simple reason of the tragedy that happened, where they should be having entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn’t think it was the right thing to do at this time.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them if they did not close also?

Mr. Senator. That it would hurt their business?

Mr. Hubert. The other business, his competitors?

Mr. Senator. Well, I don’t know about that, but I assumed, of course, I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also closed that day. I think Neiman Marcus closed. I believe in that downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close.

Mr. Hubert. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close?

Mr. Senator. How could he when he ran an ad?

Mr. Hubert. I mean for the Friday night.

Mr. Senator. To keep them from knowing?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did he ever indicate to you——

Mr. Senator. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to close.

Mr. Hubert. Why?

Mr. Senator. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened.

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the opening of the other competitors?

Mr. Senator. No; because I never saw him that day.

Mr. Hubert. But he didn’t indicate to you as a matter of fact that he would like to see them open while he was closed?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. In grief over the President?

Mr. Senator. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of mind.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at any other time.

Mr. Senator. You are referring to the individuals in the city of Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas?

Mr. Hubert. The business principally.

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas?

Mr. Senator. If he said it I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. He did not comment upon that at all?

Mr. Senator. If he did, I just don’t remember. I really don’t.

Mr. Hubert. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to the condition that you have already described on Friday night?

Mr. Senator. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what happened, and apparently this had never left his mind.

Mr. Hubert. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. Senator. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and of the family, what would happen to the family.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier that morning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation over the advertisement seemed to have passed away?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if it did or not.

Mr. Hubert. But he didn’t comment on it?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember him commenting on it.

Mr. Hubert. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than what it was the night before?

Mr. Senator. What he thought I still don’t know about that.

Mr. Hubert. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to the poster and to the ad.

Mr. Senator. Yes; now what happened——

Mr. Hubert. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed was his feeling of sorrow as to the President’s family.

Mr. Senator. Saturday morning?

Mr. Hubert. Saturday morning.

Mr. Senator. Yes; which was working on him pretty good.

Mr. Hubert. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good, and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was working on him pretty good?

Mr. Senator. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he repeated that.

Mr. Hubert. Was that extraordinary for him?

Mr. Senator. I would think it would be. To me it would be.

Mr. Hubert. And what else was he doing that indicated to you——

Mr. Senator. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn’t you know.

Mr. Hubert. And what else?

Mr. Senator. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in his eyes. I don’t know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look or a look of something. I don’t now how to tear it down. But it wasn’t a natural look.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have that impression that morning or have you reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened?

Mr. Senator. About his looks?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him enough to know the difference.

Mr. Hubert. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald.

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Hubert. You noticed this difference, and you now have a recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next day; is that right?

Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look.

Mr. Hubert. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know what you mean when you ask me if I am reconstructing it.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of people.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Including Government agents?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whether what you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else. Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the feeling that man is getting worse on this subject?

Mr. Senator. That is the way he appeared to me.

Mr. Hubert. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in your mind on Saturday morning.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Did it alarm you in any way?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how to describe myself with it, but I know it didn’t look good.

Mr. Hubert. What was your fear?

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t fearing anything. I just didn’t like the way he looked.

Mr. Hubert. When you say it didn’t look good, in what way do you mean?

Mr. Senator. It didn’t look like the normal look as I have known him.

Mr. Hubert. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you passed on?

Mr. Senator. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn’t know what to think. I didn’t know how to think.

Mr. Hubert. I think you have already said that you didn’t have any fears of anything.

Mr. Senator. No; I wasn’t afraid of him.

Mr. Hubert. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might happen to him, that he might do something?

Mr. Senator. No; not particularly; no.

Mr. Hubert. Did you think that——

Mr. Senator. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or what he was thinking about.

Mr. Hubert. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to him about it?

Mr. Senator. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not.

Mr. Hubert. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you he had been to the——

Mr. Senator. To the synagogue.

Mr. Hubert. To the synagogue?

Mr. Senator. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President. Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I really don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. You left him at the house when you left?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you left at approximately 12:30?

Mr. Senator. I would say something around that nature.

Mr. Hubert. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the synagogue, on Saturday morning.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left.

Mr. Hubert. And you left at 12:30?

Mr. Senator. I am only assuming within an hour.

Mr. Hubert. So it could have been 11:30?

Mr. Senator. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know, when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time.

Mr. Hubert. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got up until you left.

Mr. Senator. No; I left first.

Mr. Hubert. That is correct.

Mr. Senator. Now, what time he left I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up until the time you left?

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?

Mr. Senator. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down, I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no particular place or anything unusual.

Mr. Hubert. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the coffeeshop?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Which one was that?

Mr. Senator. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.

Mr. Hubert. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?

Mr. Senator. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a bun or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. You were driving the Volkswagen?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You were not on business?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event that night?

Mr. Senator. Of where I was?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I made some groceries and——

Mr. Hubert. Was Jack home at that time?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he was gone.

Mr. Hubert. He was not there?

Mr. Senator. No; he wasn’t there.

Mr. Hubert. That was about 7:30?

Mr. Senator. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been drinking that afternoon?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two. I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard, mind you.

Mr. Hubert. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went, whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30 that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the places.

Mr. Senator. Well, let me see.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t come home until 7:30?

Mr. Senator. No. I was out.

Mr. Hubert. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?

Mr. Senator. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there is no routine.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t call on any customers?

Mr. Senator. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.

Mr. Hubert. Were you riding around for 7½ hours?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go?

Mr. Senator. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not that day.

Mr. Hubert. Who is your lawyer friend?

Mr. Senator. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him. Once in a while I’d have a beer with him.

Mr. Hubert. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I suppose?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the day. There was nothing that I did in general.

Mr. Hubert. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember which one that was?

Mr. Senator. Sir?

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember which grocery store it was?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.

Mr. Hubert. Safeway?

Mr. Senator. Safeway.

Mr. Hubert. On what street?

Mr. Senator. That is on Jefferson.

Mr. Hubert. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the thing that you did immediately before you went home?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?

Mr. Senator. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had been just before you went to the grocery?

Mr. Senator. Is it possible to forget?

Mr. Hubert. Why yes, of course, it is.

Mr. Senator. Mind you this is 5 months.

Mr. Hubert. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.

Mr. Senator. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was doing that day.

Mr. Hubert. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can help us a little later on.

Mr. Senator. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But I am telling you the truth.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious. If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me ask him a question.

Mr. Hubert. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Griffin. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin. Is this someone that you see regularly?

Mr. Senator. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may have had it and I just don’t remember. I go to see him often, or I meet him.

Mr. Griffin. Is Jim single?

Mr. Senator. Pardon me?

Mr. Griffin. Is he a married man?

Mr. Senator. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on the Ruby case for a while.

Mr. Griffin. Where are his offices located?

Mr. Senator. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers’ Building.

Mr. Griffin. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home?

Mr. Senator. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you known Mr. Martin?

Mr. Senator. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something like that.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to meet him?

Mr. Senator. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Has he represented you in any legal matters?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby?

Mr. Senator. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the President was shot, on Saturday?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the President was shot?

Mr. Senator. Was I down there?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No. I drove by. I mean I didn’t stop. I drove by there.

Mr. Griffin. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you customarily do on Saturday?

Mr. Senator. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I just don’t like to work. I just don’t like to do anything particular, you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette day. I do my own.

Mr. Griffin. Do you do Jack’s also?

Mr. Senator. No. Jack doesn’t even do his own. He sends them out, but I do my own.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you do your laundry?

Mr. Senator. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers, two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is like these machines similar to the store like.

Mr. Griffin. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry?

Mr. Senator. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know where that was?

Mr. Senator. I was there one time with him when he was picking up his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don’t pick it up one day he will pick it up the next.

Mr. Griffin. He takes it over to this laundry?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. The girl does it for him at the laundry?

Mr. Senator. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They have girls over there, a couple colored girls.

Mr. Griffin. This would ordinarily be a self-service laundromat?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. But there are people there so that if you don’t want to serve yourself they will do it for you?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is the nature of this place.

Mr. Griffin. His brother Sam, wasn’t he in the laundry business?

Mr. Senator. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by somebody. I don’t know who he was employed by, but he fixes these washers.

Mr. Griffin. But he doesn’t have washaterias?

Mr. Senator. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee.

Mr. Griffin. This area that you are describing, is that in the general Oak Cliff area that you people lived in?

Mr. Senator. No, no. This is in town.

Mr. Griffin. Downtown?

Mr. Senator. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go uptown.

Mr. Griffin. What section would you call this section?

Mr. Senator. That area would be I would say sort of north—northwest part of town I think.

Mr. Hubert. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn’t there some equipment in the basement of the building you were in?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I said I did mine but he don’t do his.

Mr. Hubert. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about 7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the 24th?

Mr. Senator. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me.

Mr. Hubert. The local police?

Mr. Senator. Then from the local they put me into the FBI.

Mr. Hubert. Did they question you at that time as to your activities during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12 and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30?

Mr. Senator. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from Friday.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection of what you had done during this 6-hour period?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember what I told them. I don’t know if I was asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not mistaken, if that is the way it ran.

Mr. Griffin. Did you give the police a written statement?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You signed a written statement for the police?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they made me sign a written statement.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember what time it was that the police questioned you on Sunday?

Mr. Senator. No; I’ll tell you why I don’t remember. When they grabbed me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and I don’t wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can’t wear a watch. And I don’t know how long I was in this little room.

Mr. Griffin. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday?

Mr. Senator. That was the afternoon.

Mr. Griffin. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the police?

Mr. Senator. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday morning. That is the last time.

Mr. Griffin. And you didn’t see him again on Sunday?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him through a glass.

Mr. Griffin. But never talked to him?

Mr. Senator. No; couldn’t get near him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with his sister or with——

Mr. Senator. That day?

Mr. Griffin. Or with anybody else who had seen Jack?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Before you were questioned?

Mr. Senator. No. I’ll tell you why. When I got out, when I got through with this whole thing that night, it was already dark outside, and I for one had never seen the shooting on TV, and I still have never seen it to this day, the shooting on TV, and I never saw the runs because they had me there that late. I don’t remember what time I got out that night, but I assume it was dark. It may have been around 7 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. So between the time you left Jack Ruby back at the apartment on Sunday, and the time that the police first started to question you later on Sunday afternoon, you didn’t see Jack Ruby in that interval?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. At least to talk to?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Eva Grant?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Tom Howard?

Mr. Senator. Tom Howard?

Mr. Hubert. Let’s take a little recess at this point.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Hubert. We will convene again after recess, with the same conditions and same understanding about the oath and so on.

Now I think you said you came back home at 7:30 on Saturday night and you had bought some groceries and Ruby was not there.

Mr. Senator. Right.

Mr. Hubert. You fixed yourself something to eat, and I believe you said that you left.

Mr. Senator. No; first of all I was thinking that he might show up while I was——

Mr. Hubert. You fixed enough I think you said for two people.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he come home before you left?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you leave?

Mr. Senator. I left about maybe around 8, 8:30. As I say, I got to——

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any phone calls prior to your leaving?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Where did you go?

Mr. Senator. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy Room, if I am not mistaken, that night.

Mr. Hubert. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. Senator. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling low. I was feeling low.

Mr. Hubert. What is the name of the friend?

Mr. Senator. Bill Downey.

Mr. Hubert. What is his occupation?

Mr. Senator. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and all the other stuff that goes with it.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Senator. Let’s see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney.

Mr. Hubert. The three of you were together?

Mr. Senator. Went out.

Mr. Hubert. The three of you were together you say?

Mr. Senator. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, and everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go home including myself.

Mr. Hubert. So you all did so?

Mr. Senator. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30.

Mr. Hubert. Was Jack there then?

Mr. Senator. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was going out. Now, where he went I don’t know, but he said he was going out.

Mr. Hubert. Would you describe his condition then?

Mr. Senator. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past.

Mr. Hubert. Was it like it was in the morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition.

Mr. Hubert. He was no worse?

Mr. Senator. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn’t look good.

Mr. Hubert. The reason I asked that question is because——

Mr. Senator. You know when you say “worse,” I don’t know how to put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an individual’s face.

Mr. Hubert. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday night and early Saturday morning.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think the expression you used, “the thing was getting at him,” so that you formed the impression that the condition was worsening, isn’t that correct? Is that a fair statement?

Mr. Senator. That is the way it looked; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison.

Mr. Senator. I know what you are talking about, but I don’t know how to compare these things, you know.

Mr. Hubert. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier roughly Saturday morning?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say it was of the same nature or something like that. It wasn’t good, because for me to try to express, and I don’t know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express these things, you know.

Mr. Hubert. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your general impression was that there had not been much change in his condition over what it was on Saturday morning.

Mr. Senator. I will say something in the same nature.

Mr. Hubert. That it was of the same nature?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was between you two that night?

Mr. Senator. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said, “Well, I ate already.” He ate.

Mr. Hubert. How long after you arrived did he leave?

Mr. Senator. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that fast, and out he went. Now, I don’t know where his visitation was. I don’t know if he went to see his sister.

Mr. Hubert. He didn’t tell you where he was going?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Then or ever?

Mr. Senator. No; he didn’t tell me at all where he was going.

Mr. Hubert. He never did tell you later?

Mr. Senator. No; and I didn’t ask him.

Mr. Hubert. Then you don’t know where?

Mr. Senator. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I went to bed. I was going to bed.

Mr. Hubert. And you went to bed about 10:30?

Mr. Senator. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what time he came in?

Mr. Senator. No; because I wasn’t awake.

Mr. Hubert. The next time you saw him?

Mr. Senator. Was Sunday morning.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning?

Mr. Senator. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8 or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any way to fix it at all?

Mr. Senator. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr. Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and don’t have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not watching it?

Mr. Hubert. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that it was——

Mr. Senator. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time.

Mr. Hubert. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as early as 11 o’clock you usually woke up quite early.

Mr. Senator. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8 or 9 that morning.

Mr. Hubert. Was Ruby——

Mr. Senator. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed.

Mr. Hubert. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he was sleeping.

Mr. Hubert. When did he waken?

Mr. Senator. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have been maybe—of course, I have to guess again—I would assume somewheres around between 9 and 9:30.

Mr. Hubert. Why don’t we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us how long after he awakened?

Mr. Senator. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. What is your first distinct recollection of him that morning?

Mr. Senator. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which is normal for him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to him then?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn’t look good.

Mr. Hubert. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it was growing worse or not?

Mr. Senator. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The look in his eyes?

Mr. Hubert. Well, is that one of the things?

Mr. Senator. Yes; that is the way it seems.

Mr. Hubert. The way he talked or what he said?

Mr. Senator. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn’t understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom, from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What he was jabbering I don’t know. But he was really pacing. What he was thinking about——

Mr. Hubert. That was after he was dressed?

Mr. Senator. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don’t know what he was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union.

Mr. Hubert. You remember the call?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you answer the phone?

Mr. Senator. No; he had already been up.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know it was Little Lynn?

Mr. Senator. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union. I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent.

Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you that?

Mr. Senator. I heard him mention $25 over the phone.

Mr. Hubert. How did he mention it, that he would send $25?

Mr. Senator. He would send $25 to her by Western Union.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention that it was for rent?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he told me after it was for rent.

Mr. Hubert. He told you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t hear Little Lynn ask for it?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t hear it.

Mr. Hubert. Of course not.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. Therefore he must have told you.

Mr. Senator. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn because I knew——

Mr. Hubert. You knew who she was?

Mr. Senator. Sure.

Mr. Hubert. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for rent?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention that she had called the night before?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. You did not know that at the time?

Mr. Senator. If she did I don’t know. This I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what time that call was?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now——

Mr. Hubert. Let’s get at it this way.

Mr. Senator. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the times.

Mr. Hubert. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events backwards from that time, you see.

Mr. Senator. I know that I was off on the time because——

Mr. Hubert. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the facts, so let’s approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t estimate the time, but I don’t think he was up too long.

Mr. Hubert. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed?

Mr. Senator. No; he wasn’t dressed at the time Little Lynn called.

Mr. Hubert. He was not dressed at the time?

Mr. Senator. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in his shorts.

Mr. Hubert. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his breakfast?

Mr. Senator. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure.

Mr. Hubert. He answered the phone as I understand it?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When he got up he went to the bathroom?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so.

Mr. Hubert. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I understand it.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if the call came in before or after he went to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don’t know which. As I say, I would have to twist it.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t want you to twist it or to guess.

Mr. Senator. I have to guess. I have got to guess.

Mr. Hubert. You have got to give your best estimation.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. If I don’t know I can’t answer it because I have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork.

Mr. Hubert. No; we don’t want to have you guess. We want your best estimation of the passage of time. If you don’t know, we certainly don’t want you to guess. But you were there and we weren’t. Therefore, we would like to know if you know. We don’t want you to guess.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I don’t know the times.

Mr. Hubert. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke that the call came from Little Lynn?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. You know this is very complicated when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean especially if you are not watching the time and don’t know the time. It is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together.

Mr. Hubert. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now.

Mr. Senator. You see when you are relating all three there, in the relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn’t a great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o’clock in the morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is hard to break these things down and be accurate.

Mr. Hubert. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can’t tell us, we don’t want you to guess.

Mr. Senator. I can’t tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you, because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may be, maybe 2½ hours, I don’t know. Now, you know you have got to jam hours in for these three things to fit, and I can’t jam them together to make them fit.

Mr. Hubert. Let’s see if we can’t fix sequence of events instead of trying to fix hours. You got up first.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And Jack got up next.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the toilet. That came next, didn’t it? He went to the bathroom?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then he fixed himself some breakfast.

Mr. Senator. Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the telephone call, I mean her call.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember which came first. Now I am guessing that the call came first. I am not sure. I can’t relate to be sure right now.

Mr. Hubert. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it could have been after.

Mr. Senator. I just don’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the call, is that correct?

Mr. Senator. And after breakfast.

Mr. Hubert. And after breakfast?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then after he dressed he paced about some?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we are able to put them together.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one sequence, you don’t know. I am not critical of you because you don’t know, but we weren’t aware that you didn’t know until right now.

Mr. Senator. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I just can’t break it down and be right.

Mr. Hubert. Now let’s get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or would you care to estimate whether it took him——

Mr. Senator. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer. He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that much quicker than he could.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get dressed and shaved?

Mr. Senator. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably assume it would take something like that.

Mr. Hubert. And do you think it took him that long on this morning?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if it took him that long.

Mr. Hubert. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that took him a half an hour?

Mr. Senator. I would only have to guess. I can’t say.

Mr. Hubert. Normally it would have?

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t assume the time.

Mr. Hubert. Normally it would take him a half hour?

Mr. Senator. I would so surmise that it would.

Mr. Hubert. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you would know it.

Mr. Senator. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Was it at that point that he left?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything upon leaving?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What did he say?

Mr. Senator. He said, “George, I am taking the dog down to the club.”

Mr. Hubert. Anything else?

Mr. Senator. That was it, and out he went.

Mr. Hubert. He was fully dressed?

Mr. Senator. He was fully dressed.

Mr. Hubert. Could you describe how he was dressed?

Mr. Senator. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say when he was coming back?

Mr. Senator. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning over the telephone?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is?

Mr. Senator. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident before, but I don’t remember this at all. I just don’t remember if he did or not. I can’t, in other words, I can’t refresh my mind whatsoever that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not fresh for that long.

Mr. Hubert. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the house or outside the house maybe?

Mr. Senator. No; I wasn’t out.

Mr. Hubert. You never left the house?

Mr. Senator. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I—no, I don’t even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure.

Mr. Hubert. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling?

Mr. Senator. I do not remember at all.

Mr. Hubert. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there?

Mr. Senator. I think he—I don’t know, but I know that he has driven by to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don’t know if it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it hadn’t been. I don’t know on that.

Mr. Hubert. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen Bennett called did Jack leave the house?

Mr. Senator. Who? Oh, Little Lynn?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called.

Mr. Hubert. Yes?

Mr. Senator. This I do remember.

Mr. Hubert. He had to dress?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know which came first, if she called or he fixed breakfast first.

Mr. Hubert. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called until he told you “I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to the club.” Have you any idea at all? If you don’t, tell us.

Mr. Senator. Wait, wait, what time she called?

Mr. Hubert. No; the time interval between when she called and when he left.

Mr. Senator. I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour.

Mr. Hubert. On what do you base it?

Mr. Senator. I am just guessing. I can’t base it on anything. I am only guessing.

Mr. Hubert. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress.

Mr. Senator. Sure you have got to dress.

Mr. Hubert. So that took up some time.

Mr. Senator. Yes; had to wash.

Mr. Hubert. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little interval of time.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So when you characterize it as a wild guess——

Mr. Senator. I have got to guess.

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting together of these little segments of time and estimating what each would take.

Mr. Senator. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess all this.

Mr. Hubert. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn’t it really the result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do these little segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and down and so forth, and you added them up and came to about three quarters of an hour; wasn’t that your mental processes rather than a wild guess?

Mr. Senator. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together. Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure?

Mr. Hubert. That is true, but——

Mr. Senator. You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work.

Mr. Hubert. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day.

Mr. Senator. They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had to give guess works.

Mr. Hubert. What you are saying now is that the times that you estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times on that very day? You were examined, weren’t you?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. About 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the evening?

Mr. Senator. And I have always said I would have to guess the time.

Mr. Hubert. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time?

Mr. Senator. That Sunday?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Yes; I always have to guess.

Mr. Hubert. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the earlier part of the day?

Mr. Senator. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the earlier part of the day; is that correct?

Mr. Senator. Of times?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Of times.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. Senator. If a man doesn’t see a clock, or doesn’t see a watch, what else can he do? What else can you go by?

Mr. Hubert. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day, your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing?

Mr. Senator. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can tell me if you don’t see a clock or a watch, how do you tell?

Mr. Hubert. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time?

Mr. Senator. At that time I believe it was something about the late President, but I don’t just recall what it was, but I believe it was——

Mr. Hubert. Practically everything that day was. You don’t remember any specific part?

Mr. Senator. I don’t; no. I don’t remember any specific part.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Hubert. And that was the last time you saw Jack?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up on Sunday morning before Jack?

Mr. Senator. Sunday morning? Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did wake up before Jack?

Mr. Senator. I always—I would say 95 percent of the time I was up before him.

Mr. Griffin. But on this day do you have any recollection?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was still in bed.

Mr. Griffin. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast for yourself?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. You did not?

Mr. Senator. No. I had coffee. I made coffee.

Mr. Griffin. Coffee?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. In this period between the time you got up and the time that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the entire period?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment.

Mr. Griffin. And were you visited by anybody?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. That day?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or that morning?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know any of the other people who lived in the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Sidney Evans?

Mr. Senator. Sidney Evans?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. Griffin. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor Express, truck drivers apparently.

Mr. Senator. Did they live there?

Mr. Griffin. They were supposed to; yes.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you?

Mr. Senator. When you say across the hall, it was a U. That was just by the U shape.

Mr. Griffin. A balcony sort of a situation?

Mr. Senator. A balcony, but it was a U. In other words, when I walked out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would hit the ground. There was nobody facing me.

Mr. Griffin. How about on either side?

Mr. Senator. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something like that.

Mr. Griffin. That U that you are talking about, is it sort of a stairwell, is that it? The U is on one floor of the stairwell?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And there were three suites on the landing that you people were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack’s suite which you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn’t the end of the strip.

Mr. Griffin. There was a hallway, wasn’t there?

Mr. Senator. No; there was a balcony.

Mr. Griffin. A balcony?

Mr. Senator. A railing—I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors.

Mr. Griffin. And you opened out onto this balcony?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along that balcony?

Mr. Senator. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your mind—in other words, say that I am facing my door right now.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. And the balcony goes U-shaped like this. Do you follow me? In other words, this is all space out here.

Mr. Griffin. Everything in front of you is space?

Mr. Senator. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on this side plus balconies this way.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many different——

Mr. Senator. The entire level.

Mr. Griffin. Yes. How many different?

Mr. Senator. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments.

Mr. Griffin. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway?

Mr. Senator. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front, there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way.

Mr. Griffin. Another stairway?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there perhaps—how many of those people did you know?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t know any. I never had a conversation with any of them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn’t know any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn’t a conversation.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what happened after Jack left the apartment.

Mr. Hubert. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the day. You were turning to another subject?

Mr. Griffin. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the apartment.

Mr. Hubert. That I think would be another subject.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and——

Mr. Hubert. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5.

Mr. Senator. I am not mad at you.